Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Aratex 11-21-06, 10:18 AM	I admit I'm pretty new to D&D.. The group I play with has been playing for about 6 months, and all of us are new players except for two. The two with prior experience have been taking turns DMing two different campaigns, which gives them both plenty of time to prepare material between sessions. Both of our DMs have several years experience as players and DMs, but until 6 months ago, neither had played since 2nd edition, and while they seem to have adapted to the new rules pretty well, they don't seem to get what the spirit of the game is now. (Or at the very least, what we as players want to be the spirit of the game.) In short, they believe the game should be really really hard: -Our character builds have to be OK'd in advance to make sure they're not "too powerful" by some arbitrary and undefined standard (for example, I was told I couldn't play a warlock, due to not having a limit on eldritch blast use).. -They both proudly state that they would never have magic items for sale in towns, claiming that would horribly unbalance the game... At the same time, they very rarely give magic items as loot, either... (Example: Last night in the harder of the campaigns, our level 2 party - level 2 in 6 months, told you it was hard, lots of deaths - killed a level 5 cleric and his level 4 paladin sidekick, and when the DM rolled a +1 sword as loot, he rerolled because that was too powerful for us.) -They both believe in forced character retirement at level 15, because after that "there's just nothing that could possibly challenge [us] anyway and it wouldn't be fun anymore." I know the majority of our problems with the game are due to our DMs clinging to their idea of how they wanted the game to be in the past, or perhaps even the way they were taught it in the first place.. and while we certainly don't want a purely hack-and-slash campaign, it would be nice to have more battle-ready characters.. For example, one of our campaigns, our party level is 9, and every character is still wearing their starting equipment armor, and only one character has a magic weapon. Does anyone have experience dealing with this kind of thing? How can we convince our DMs to let us have a game we (as players) can enjoy?
Cyresss 11-21-06, 10:29 AM	I think a lot of the players on this board whine about their DM's being too controlling, but never really think about the problem. If all the players in a group are that unhappy, all of you sit down and talk to the DM(s) as a group. If this dosen't work you need to be willing to look outside your current group for another group to play in. You could even just say that if they don't want to compromise then you as a player will step up and DM. The only way to learn is to do, so go for it. If you show them how much fun a game can be without all the arbitrart=y limits, maybe they will change. The big issue is that you need to feel comfortable as a group talking with each other. If the group breaks up because of something like sharing of feelings then there was a fundamental problem that couldn't be fixed anyway. Besides... you've only been together 6 months, it's not too late to get out if necessary. Good luck!
HairyApe 11-21-06, 10:31 AM	If everyone is unhappy, start by bringing it up, in a non-confrontational manner, to your DMs. Let them know what you don't like, and what you would like to change. If that doesn't work, look for one of you (or another friend) who wants to try their hand at DMing. Just walk away. They'll either try to change, or try to find another group. Whatever you do, don't measure certain anatomical appendages. It just causes bad blood and hurt feelings. Try to be civil, walk if neccessary.
Joseph_Silver 11-21-06, 10:31 AM	If most of the players agree with you, I suggest telling your DM about this. D&D is all about having fun, and if the players are not having fun, the DM has failed. Remind him that the game is not all about him. It's about all of you, and if he's the only one having fun, then something is definitely wrong with the game. Don't tell me... He's one of those elitist roleplayers who nerfs anything that seems overpowered, right? The part about him banning the warlock makes me laugh. The warlock is actually underpowered. Maybe you should ask him to spend some time in the Wizards.com forums. Maybe he could pay a visit to Character Optimization, so he will know that "overpowered" really means.
green_yawgmoth 11-21-06, 10:32 AM	Tell them that a uberlow-magic, snail's-pace levelling game is not the kind of game you want to play in. Failing that, leave the game. Tell them that the game isn't any fun being stuck at level 2 for all eternity, and that there's a reason they print 9th level spells and creatures of CR > 15. But really, I think you're just going to have to DM a game yourself in order to show your friends a good time. Don't invite these other two, they will ruin your game with constant pouting, whining about changes, and "that's not how I would do it if I were DMing" every 4 seconds. I've played with DMs like this and trust me, it won't get any better. It's a classic case of "rose glasses syndrome"; everything in the past was better than it is now because I remember it being more fun than it looks now. It's common among people over 30 and the terminally pigheaded. You can try to change their minds all you like, but those who didn't convert when 3e came out aren't going to change now. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Comus 11-21-06, 10:36 AM	Does anyone have experience dealing with this kind of thing? How can we convince our DMs to let us have a game we (as players) can enjoy? Sit down and talk to your DM. If you're not having fun, tell him so. Tell him what you like in a game. Find another DM, if you really aren't having fun. Run a game yourself, if you want, with these DMs as players and show them what you like. Really, you've obviously been playing the game for a long time, so it must be at least a little fun.
Aratex 11-21-06, 10:43 AM	A few good suggestions so far, but one thing I want to add. We were all good friends before we started playing D&D together. Doing anything that might damage those friendships is really not an option. I have considered asking to try DMing, but nobody (other players included) thinks I'm capable of it. As of last night, I also considered completely stopping the game, and going back to playing poker with these guys and trying to find a different D&D group instead, but that's definitely a last resort for me. The main thing I was asking for was tips on how to handle this tactfully. Both of our DMs are good guys, and I believe they'd be willing to work with us if we addressed it properly.
Khurgan 11-21-06, 10:44 AM	Sure, we had this with our regular D&D DM - he'd been DMing that game (& earlier versions of it) for us for 15 years when 3.0 came along. He was finding that his knowledge of AD&D 2nd ED was interfering with his ability to get into 3.0 to the extent that he was, for a short time, insisting that for anyone to 'dual-class' you only got 1/2 the hp rolled on the hit dice (!) - this was part of his inborn resistance to 'dual classing' which he'd got from AD&D 1st and 2nd Editions... We're now on 3.5 and we regularly pick up other classes now - heck that's expected, right? There are two choices you have - first, as mentioned by Cyresss - just talk to the DM(s) in question and point out the game has changed immesurably since 2nd Edition - it's more akin to playing a character in a Graphic Novel than it is 'realism'. Second, when talking you could ask them to read some official adventures - there's loads on this website for download - to get a feel for the adventure difficulty: reward ratio in terms of both experience and items. Point out there's little to stop your players developing CRAFT skills and getting the required FEATS to creat your own magical items - such is the all permeating nature of magic and magical items. Point out that 6 months roleplaying to get to level 2 was it? Is impossibly slow. What have you been doing? Sitting around the table week-in, week-out staring at each other, not talking in character and not solving any problems or killing any baddies? Impossible! It's been a month, a tough month, but my dwarf fighter (soon to be fighter-cleric) is level 3 in the Age of Worms adventure path. As for enforced retirement at 15th Level - point out that's now only half-way, at best, through the game and that a multitude of 16-20 level edventures exist - for free - on this website and that Epic Level play is promoted by Wizards of the Coast and others producing published games. Hell - to finish Shackled City or Age of Worms you HAVE to be 20th level. Our party got TPK-ed when all 6 were at levels 16 to 18 on Shackled City that adventure path is THAT hard (and we were a tank-heavy group, too with 2 paladin types, one fighter type, 1 fighter-cleric type and a wizard who was a dwarf and who regularly turned himself into a Warforged Titan) and we STILL BOUGHT THE FARM. Toughest adventure I've ever played through and it just got tougher the higher we got DESPITE a Holy Avenger in the group and wepons of +3 (Holy) to +5... Talk to you DM(s) and Players - point out the game's no fun for you as it's too hard and not rewarding enough in-game and out-of-game. Good lcuk!
Khurgan 11-21-06, 10:49 AM	The main thing I was asking for was tips on how to handle this tactfully. Both of our DMs are good guys, and I believe they'd be willing to work with us if we addressed it properly. Right - point out that they might find it helpful to 'get their creative juices flowing' and to 'get into the 3.5 edition more easily' by reading the printed adventures on this website. That should help
Aratex 11-21-06, 10:56 AM	Point out that 6 months roleplaying to get to level 2 was it? Is impossibly slow. What have you been doing? Sitting around the table week-in, week-out staring at each other, not talking in character and not solving any problems or killing any baddies? Impossible! Actually, we've been rolling and rerolling.. It seems like every time a character gets to level 2, they die. Admittedly, some of them have died due to really crappy plans that went even farther south in execution. That particular DM said it'd probably been 15+ years since he DM'd a level 1 party, so I think he just hasn't gotten the hang of balancing difficulty in 3.5 yet. We have also been trapped in roleplaying a good portion of the time, and since both of them only give experience for stuff that dies.. That's slowed us down more than anything. (Last night, we finally finished our first ill-fated adventure under that DM, but since we killed the bad guys without knowing what we were up to, we didn't get the experience we were promised for solving the mystery.)
Khurgan 11-21-06, 11:19 AM	We have also been trapped in roleplaying a good portion of the time, and since both of them only give experience for stuff that dies.. That's slowed us down more than anything. (Last night, we finally finished our first ill-fated adventure under that DM, but since we killed the bad guys without knowing what we were up to, we didn't get the experience we were promised for solving the mystery.) Right - our DM is pretty stingy on the old EXP-for roleplaying too - that caused us (for 15 years) not to bother roleplaying, now (that we're older, more mature, wiser, stupider - you choose) we roleplay EVERY CONVERSATION between characters and chars-to-NPCs - that FORCES the DM to give EXP (usually in 50XP or 100XP amounts, maximum - but when you're trying to get to level 2 (1000 EXP) that's a lot) - plus we have *a lot* of fun doing it. Finally - with our DM it took us 5 years of playing 3.0 and 3.5 to get him OUT of the habit of awarding EXP only at the end of the adventure - now we get it at the end of every real-world session (ie every Sunday night he tots up and dishes out). This is a MUST for 3.5, esp if you're in the levels 1-20 adventure paths as each adventure requires players to advance at least 2 levels within it! Point out it is a ROLEPLAYING + GAME, not a roleplaying GAME - if you understand what I'm trying to say... Oh, and make better plans.
Some_call_me_Tim 11-21-06, 12:00 PM	We were all good friends before we started playing D&D together. Doing anything that might damage those friendships is really not an option. I hate to be so blunt but, if your friendship can't survive a difference of opinion about the game you want to play I wouldn't really care about preserving that friendship. The main thing I was asking for was tips on how to handle this tactfully. Both of our DMs are good guys, and I believe they'd be willing to work with us if we addressed it properly.If they are really good guys invite them over and say "Hey, guys. We want to feel that this campaign is ours too. While you put a lot of work into it, we would enjoy it more if...." Then layout your objections: you don't like low-magic, character development is too slow, and we would like to retire as epic-level characters. Make sure they know you appriciate their hardwork; that you aren't saying they are playing wrong only they are playing the game differently than you want to play. Campaigns require both DMs and players to cooperate. If they are good DMs they will adjust their play to match their players. Also you need to have realistic expectations about how much they will change, don't expect a monty haul power-gaming campaign. As for running your own campaign, ask them to allow you to audition for the position. Say that you want to run a one-off adventure out of Dungeon for example. Playing a premade adventure will take a large potion of the responsibility off of you as DM. If they like you as DM consider running one of the Dungeon campaigns, the Shackled City is available as a book, the Age of Worms just finished you can get it as back issues, or join the new Savage Tide story arc.
Gahread 11-21-06, 01:08 PM	We have also been trapped in roleplaying a good portion of the time, and since both of them only give experience for stuff that dies.. That's slowed us down more than anything. Okay, the DM is being miserly as all getout with the experience, doesn't like overpowered characters, won't let you have magic items, and loves to throw overpowered encounters at you. Spiffy. You've got a DM who is playing against the party, not with or for the party. He's not there to ensure you have fun overcoming challenges, gaining levels and telling a good story, he's there to see if he can win. The answer is always yes for that, but you can force him to do things that are obviously, pathetically transparent attempts to 'beat' the party. Most DMs won't go that far. If he wants to play an adversarial-style campaign, and you don't mind dropping back to square one, you can easily overcome it. First, go hunting. Get out in the wilds, beat the brush of less-traveled places, and see what pops up. When it does, kill it. It's not RP, it's survival through levelling. Second, optimize for low-level combat. Plan your character out for levels 1-6. Have an idea about 7-whatever, but plan for the first few. This means several things: One wizard. I would say "no wizards", but you're going to want them at 3rd and 5th level for item creation feats. You probably want them to be an elf for the longbow proficiency so they can contribute to the party. When they hit level 3 or so, their high intelligence combined with their crafting skills should let them hit an 18 target by taking 10. All you need is 5 ranks and a 16 INT. Now you can just sit down and make your item of choice. That wizard needs to take low-level effective spells. Color Spray, Sleep, Daze are all very nice. Enlarge person makes somebody with a big two-handed weapon extra-nasty. Magic Missile should not be on your spell list! DMG, page 284, has ways to drop item costs. Very useful for your Craft Wondrous Item wizard. As soon as he hits level 5, that wizard also needs to find someplace quiet to make a bunch of magic weapons and armor at 50% of the regular cost. At level 6, everything jumps to +2. This bypasses the problem of the DM being the only entry point for magic gear. If everybody has a longbow/crossbow, you can do some fairly impressive damage from range. If you have a 'kill it or no XP!' DM who also likes to play smart critters who know when to run, then you can shoot 'em in the back. Remember, 100 feet is the range increment, not max range. The all-singing, all-dancing, all-cleric party isn't a bad idea. If you're getting TPKs or near-TPKs, the ability to keep healing each other may help. Even the level 1 spells are decent party buffs. Bless, Bane and Doom are 1 min/level. Lesser Vigor is very useful for getting those HPs back after a fight. At level 2 you have Divine Insight and Fox's Cunning Cast cast on your forging wizard from those clerics. He gets +9 to a craft skill check, then everybody uses 'aid other' and takes 10. Work the bellows, keep the fire stoked, hold the tongs for him, that sort of thing. Your wizard suddenly can hit a *35* target in a 5-person party at level 3. Voluntarily boost the difficulty by +10 or +20 of whatever you're making and not only can he make things, he can make them relatively quickly. Focus on combat feats. As a human, you get two of them. Exotic weapon proficiency (fullblade) will eat 100 of your starting gold, but it's also 2d8 damage. EWP(spiked chain) is another good option, and cheaper at 25 gold. It requires decent strength, but a human fighter can pick up EWP, power attack and cleave at first level. Toss in the Dirty Fighting feat for +1d4 damage at second level and you have the option of either doing 3d4+strength*1.5 damage and cleaving to anything within 10 feet, or 2d8+1d4+strength*1.5 and a 5 foot reach cleave. Combat reflexes is better for dirty fighting for a spiked chain user if you have 3 high stats to place in strength, dex and con, and unlike dirty fighting, it's useful at higher levels. Have your 3rd level wizard toss Enlarge Person in there for 3 minutes, and it gets downright ugly. That combat reflexes/spiked chain guy has a 20 foot reach. If your standard orc or hobgoblin wants a piece of him, he gets 3 chances to drop the creature with before it can get a swing off! Anything that wants to get at your squishy characters has to avoid a 50 foot wide area or risk lots of pain. The fullblade user is just as bad, with a purely evil 3d8 damage from the enlarged blade alone and a 10 foot reach. At 3rd level, you should be doing about 20 damage per enlarged swing, not counting criticals. Stand in front of the party, let them come to you, and you can defend a 30 foot wide area against all comers. Many CR 3 encounter creatures have less than 30 HP! At 4th level, should you reach that high, your fighter can take great cleave. Combined with combat reflexes and that fullblade, your enlarged fighter can start mowing down encounters with the clerics backing him up. Third, don't be afraid to run. You can run at 4x your base speed. Beat feet, and if they chase you, you can ask the DM to give you an idea of the terrain. "It's gently rolling plains" is not an idea of the terrain. You want an actual map. Pick a place that will give you higher ground than your opponents like a hilltop, a way to block line of sight like the reverse side of a hill, or a way to channel them at you like a ravine. Terrain advantage can make a difference against many foes, and others may just give it up after you've sprinted off a few hundred feet.
Joseph_Silver 11-21-06, 01:52 PM	Actually, we've been rolling and rerolling.. It seems like every time a character gets to level 2, they die. Admittedly, some of them have died due to really crappy plans that went even farther south in execution. That particular DM said it'd probably been 15+ years since he DM'd a level 1 party, so I think he just hasn't gotten the hang of balancing difficulty in 3.5 yet. We have also been trapped in roleplaying a good portion of the time, and since both of them only give experience for stuff that dies.. That's slowed us down more than anything. (Last night, we finally finished our first ill-fated adventure under that DM, but since we killed the bad guys without knowing what we were up to, we didn't get the experience we were promised for solving the mystery.) This is an example of bad DM'ing. You don't gain XP for killing monsters, you gain XP for overcoming challenges. That's what the challenge rating system is for. If you killed the bad guys without them knowing, that still counts as overcoming the challenge. You should've gained full XP. Tell him to register here. Let him talk with other players and DMs. Maybe this will help.
Khurgan 11-21-06, 02:48 PM	[QUOTE=Gahread;10700772] Have your 3rd level wizard toss Enlarge Person in there for 3 minutes, and it gets downright ugly. That combat reflexes/spiked chain guy has a 20 foot reach. If your standard orc or hobgoblin wants a piece of him, he gets 3 chances to drop the creature with before it can get a swing off! Anything that wants to get at your squishy characters has to avoid a 50 foot wide area or risk lots of pain. The fullblade user is just as bad, with a purely evil 3d8 damage from the enlarged blade alone and a 10 foot reach. At 3rd level, you should be doing about 20 damage per enlarged swing, not counting criticals. Stand in front of the party, let them come to you, and you can defend a 30 foot wide area against all comers. Many CR 3 encounter creatures have less than 30 HP! At 4th level, should you reach that high, your fighter can take great cleave. Combined with combat reflexes and that fullblade, your enlarged fighter can start mowing down encounters with the clerics backing him up. QUOTE] His DM is going to love you! That's the MEANEST, BADDEST set of optimised carnage dealing set of tactics I've seen in a long long time. Beeeeeeautiful!
DarkWarriorKarg 11-21-06, 03:24 PM	To the OP: Your freind is not an old-fashioned DM (_I_ am, so I find this objectionable, having played since 1st ed and explored many systems afterwards), he is a BAD DM. Not incompetent... he refuses to listen & learn, which makes him bad.
Matthew77 11-21-06, 03:26 PM	I'm going to suggest something completely different from the other posters in the thread. My advice: Realize what your DM's style is, and just go with it. Accept the fact that characters will be dropping like flies, and that you won't have magical items and just play the game as it is. Keep a handful of characters ready, and don't bother putting much effort into backstories or personality, because they are only going to last a session or two anyway. This is a great chance to try out lots of different character concepts and experiment with classes/races/abilities you don't normally use. Realize that many monsters will be beyond your ability to defeat, so don't feel bad when they kill you. Run away a lot. Take simple survival as your measure of victory instead of trying to kill the opponent. Keep a running tally of how many character deaths and compete with the other players for most or fewest deaths per session. Instead of trying to change the DM to fit your style, change your playing to fit the DM's style. Its a social game, get your enjoyment from hanging with your mates and laughing, and don't worry about how many characters you blow through.. its not like you get a limited number or something. If you really can't get any enjoyment at all from this style of game, you need to be honest with your friends and tell them so, but I bet that if you change your attitude to "how can I enjoy this game" instead of "how can I change the game to the style I prefer" you'll find yourself having a good time.
Dragon_loving_DM 11-21-06, 04:20 PM	I'ld like to point something out to you guys, and I know this will cause a lot of you to flame back but IDC. In second edition it really was DM vs. PC. Remember that back then lv 10 was the be all end all in most classes. I'm playing in a 2nd ed game where I've got a 4th level monk (remember how screwed up monks were back then) I've been playing him for the last three years and I can't even count on a computer how many times he's died. theres always a cleric there to revive me, or something like that. To me these Dm's sound like sticks in the mud. I am going to tell you, not suggest to you, tell you that if you want these guys to change your going to have to take them under your wing and show them how it's done. It's quite possible that they have no clue what their supposed to do in 3.5... Yes they can set up a story arc and they can throw monsters at you but honestly who can't. I'll also say that I wouldn't mind playing with these guys. Yeah things were harder in 2nd ed but back then it wasn't about what you got but what fun you had while getting there. you may not like what I'm saying but you also have to remember this one fact, Rule number 0.5=>players reserve the right to walk off at any given time. Their not making you stick around no ones holding a gun to your head to make you play. Yeah your friends with them...fine you play poker with them GRAND that means you know them well enough to tell them 'Hey look-it chuck, (if thats not his name fine change it) That was pretty bone headed just then. I wanna level up and I wanna level up NOW!' Why did I say it like that... Because it sounds to me like your all whineing over what level your characters are. The game is a ROLE-PLAYING game which means your to have fun doing what ever it is you do. this does not mean you have to build a character that you plan to live to be a billion years old and have him/her accend to god-hood it's not about levels. It's about RP. You want to just level up a character, Fine play FFVII or something like that...not D&D. Like I tell my friends who play with me. 'Don't expect to see lv 10 unless your character diserves it.' And for all of you who are about to write a 'nice' post back to me remember. I'm sitting at a computer that I can very easly walk away from and/or change web site at. IDC about how you think /I/ should be playing, nor do I care about how it is done at your house. me and my friends enjoy doing things our way...and yes to quell your comments I"m frequently asked to DM because my style is the preffered way in our gaggle. -TTFN-
Haida 11-21-06, 05:39 PM	I don't know if you'll find complete satisfaction playing in this game, but instead of stopping playing with them, see if you can get a side game going with some other friends or even look in the classifieds page here. I personally prefer playing the game according to the rules, but some people like to play the DM vs the world type games that basically throw out the ruleboooks. See if you can find an eberron game, or some other game that uses 3rd edition adventure modules. You'll find that these games can be very challenging too and can result in frequent character death, but at least it's faster-paced. Your DM sounds like an inexperienced DM who doesn't want to do much work, sort of skating along on what he's always done. This is understandable, since people with families and careers often don't want to spend all their time figuring out new rulesets and coming up with encounters that are appropriate for high-level play. In many ways 3rd edition is more complicated than 2nd edition was, so there's a lot to learn, but I think it's rewarding to try and learn the new classes, races, feats and combat styles. Still, challenging your DM too much will likely just cause resentment within this group, so I suggest starting a side game or finding another group to game with in addition to these friends. I'll throw another plug in for Eberron here bc chances are whoever runs an eberron campaign can't make it a low-magic non-leveling game. The whole thing is based on pulp adventure.
Elemental_Elf 11-21-06, 06:33 PM	I'ld like to point something out to you guys, and I know this will cause a lot of you to flame back but IDC. In second edition it really was DM vs. PC. Remember that back then lv 10 was the be all end all in most classes. I'm playing in a 2nd ed game where I've got a 4th level monk (remember how screwed up monks were back then) I've been playing him for the last three years and I can't even count on a computer how many times he's died. theres always a cleric there to revive me, or something like that. To me these Dm's sound like sticks in the mud. I am going to tell you, not suggest to you, tell you that if you want these guys to change your going to have to take them under your wing and show them how it's done. It's quite possible that they have no clue what their supposed to do in 3.5... Yes they can set up a story arc and they can throw monsters at you but honestly who can't. I'll also say that I wouldn't mind playing with these guys. Yeah things were harder in 2nd ed but back then it wasn't about what you got but what fun you had while getting there. you may not like what I'm saying but you also have to remember this one fact, Rule number 0.5=>players reserve the right to walk off at any given time. Their not making you stick around no ones holding a gun to your head to make you play. Yeah your friends with them...fine you play poker with them GRAND that means you know them well enough to tell them 'Hey look-it chuck, (if thats not his name fine change it) That was pretty bone headed just then. I wanna level up and I wanna level up NOW!' Why did I say it like that... Because it sounds to me like your all whineing over what level your characters are. The game is a ROLE-PLAYING game which means your to have fun doing what ever it is you do. this does not mean you have to build a character that you plan to live to be a billion years old and have him/her accend to god-hood it's not about levels. It's about RP. You want to just level up a character, Fine play FFVII or something like that...not D&D. Like I tell my friends who play with me. 'Don't expect to see lv 10 unless your character diserves it.' And for all of you who are about to write a 'nice' post back to me remember. I'm sitting at a computer that I can very easly walk away from and/or change web site at. IDC about how you think /I/ should be playing, nor do I care about how it is done at your house. me and my friends enjoy doing things our way...and yes to quell your comments I"m frequently asked to DM because my style is the preffered way in our gaggle. -TTFN- That's the kind of mentality I find boring. Sure its IS fun to finish a difficult quest but not when your character has died 6 or 7 times in the process. That, to me, makes me feel as if my character is utterly useless and that the DM is targeting my character that is if I played my character smart, not stupidly mind you. I mean where's the fun in even trying to stay alive if you know that the cleric will rez you if you happen to die? Not that much fun, IMO. I live for the hunt and the survival. If my character dies repeatedly due to character deficiencies, I would want to roll up a new one. Seriously why is it fun to Attack-Die-Rez rinse and repeat? I like getting cool magical loot, but not at level 1-6 really; at that level I'm much happier finding Masterwork weapons, better armor, cool mundane items... Stuff like that. Leveling isn't that big of a concern either, adventuring is more fun. BUT having said that I do like to goob over my character and make him stronger so he can face tougher enemies and do cooler things. I also like to Role-play, a lot actually, far more than my fellow players. But you know what; you can Role-Play through hack-and-slash. Only fools take hack and slash and see numbers and level progression. Personally when I'm killing enemies I like to envision what my character says as he slashes and stabs his enemies. What his facial expressions are when he sees an enemy cleaved in two by the Barbarian. You can role play that, but I suppose that isn't role play to your types. ~~ Matthew77: I think that is a terrible way to play. More than 3/4 of the game is about interacting and role playing your character. If you blow through 5 or 6 characters in 2 weeks, where's the fun in that? I mean seriously how is it fun to every week change characters and classes? Eh, not my style. ~~ For the OP: Suggest to your Dm that the party should start off at a higher level than 1. Maybe like level 6 or so; that way your DM could design powerful creatures and enemies that would challenge you guys but also allow you guys to experience what life is like at higher levels. Up until level 4 or so, every character feels very similar. Their unique class attributes don't begin to shine until then. Also the group as a whole, players and DM(s) should sit down and talk about what each person wants to experience in the game. I know from my experience my group's games sucked until we did this. The group as a whole discovered that each other person had unique ideas for the world. Such as: I like to Role Play encounters with NPCs, I like to explore the world and discover interesting books and bits about Lore. I also want to fight unique enemies with interesting histories and have some semblance of depth. Another person in our party simply wants a generic hack and slash. He wants to kill, kill, kill, kill and kill until his muscles are black and blue. Another wants to simply have a fun time hanging out with friends enjoying a diverse helping of encounters. Another simply wishes to feel useful in every encounter. The last simply wants to level up so he can do more stuff (a real power gamer). So what this boils down to is this: Each person has different needs and desires. Each player must be allowed to achieve or at least feel as if they have achieved their goals in the game. My group strives very hard to help each member accomplish their goals. And we do a pretty good job of it as well. The point being that if you guys don't sit down, no one will realize (at least your DMs) that you guys want to play a different style. IMO it is not the DM's job to metagame the hell out of his NPCs so he can kill every last one of the PCs but to provide a challenge that not only test each player individually but as a team. The goal of D&D is to challenge, not to TPK and definitely not DM v. PCs. Each group (DM and PCs) have to give a little to the other side. The DM must realize that he must adapt to his players as with out them he may as well be writing a book. At the same time the PCs have to realize that with out the DM, they may as well be playing WOW. Each side needs to give a little to make everyone happy.
FeceMan 11-21-06, 06:53 PM	The OP seems to have mixed up the term "old-fashioned" with "giant douche."
Salla 11-21-06, 07:00 PM	The OP seems to have mixed up the term "old-fashioned" with "giant douche." Well said.
Aratex 11-21-06, 07:07 PM	For the OP: Suggest to your Dm that the party should start off at a higher level than 1. Maybe like level 6 or so; that way your DM could design powerful creatures and enemies that would challenge you guys but also allow you guys to experience what life is like at higher levels. Up until level 4 or so, every character feels very similar. Their unique class attributes don't begin to shine until then. This was actually one of my very first suggestions, but both DMs are against that.. One feels that players don't develop an emotional attachment to their characters unless they suffer through the lower levels. The other DM said that in his experience, players would make character decisions they wouldn't normally make if they started at higher level (ie, taking a feat at level 1 that would've made the character virtually unplayable at level 1). I strongly disagree with both of their views, as I spent a LOT of time planning my characters, their level progression, their stories, etc. Which is why burning through them so fast under one of my DMs is so trying for me personally. By the way, thanks to everyone who's given advice so far.. :) I've got a lot of ideas now, and I'm starting to feel a bit less nervous about the 'intervention'.
green_yawgmoth 11-21-06, 08:25 PM	I hate to be so blunt but, if your friendship can't survive a difference of opinion about the game you want to play I wouldn't really care about preserving that friendship. well put. If your friend can't handle you saying "hey, dude, your game isn't fun. we've been doing nothing but play drama club reject hour for the past [time period] and while RP is fun, we'd also like to do something that involves, ya know, the mechanics of the game." Then maybe offer to DM a game yourself so your friends know what a fun game is like. You've got a whole forum worth of people willing to help you flesh out any idea you can conjure. And when all else fails, there's always the hammergun. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Elemental_Elf 11-22-06, 02:09 AM	This was actually one of my very first suggestions, but both DMs are against that.. One feels that players don't develop an emotional attachment to their characters unless they suffer through the lower levels. The other DM said that in his experience, players would make character decisions they wouldn't normally make if they started at higher level (ie, taking a feat at level 1 that would've made the character virtually unplayable at level 1). I strongly disagree with both of their views, as I spent a LOT of time planning my characters, their level progression, their stories, etc. Which is why burning through them so fast under one of my DMs is so trying for me personally. By the way, thanks to everyone who's given advice so far.. :) I've got a lot of ideas now, and I'm starting to feel a bit less nervous about the 'intervention'. Well that seems like an outdated mode of thinking. In 3.x you can definitely have a strong emotional connection with a character simply by creating it. The amount of work that goes into developing a character concept, hashing that out, finding the right feats, developing a back story to complement mechanics, fleshing that out then writing ever thing down... How is that not developing a link to your character? I agree, you do develop more of a connection with a character through adversity, but not just at the lower levels; this occurs at ALL levels. If your character dies early on than all that time spent creating your character and the bonds you crafted were for not. I mean how can you develop a deep emotional connection with something if you know it will die right after you filed the character? You can't that's how. I'm beginning to think that your DM(s) are stuck in a by gone era. I think the best way to handle your DMs would be to do this: Start a dialogue with another player sitting near you. Talk slightly louder than normal, that way the others can hear you. Talk about how you hate having to create so many characters and you're getting really bored. I'd suggest scripting a little of this dialogue out with the friend, that way the two of you can sound intelligent and witty. Your DMs will either stare at you in a dumb founded manner or challenge your Point of View. Now the keys to when you finally confront the Dms in this way are to have a good grasp of why you don't like their DMing style and how you would like to see to play. Make sure the friend whom you had a dialogue with also pitches ideas and reiterates what you say. The key points you need to touch on are: We would like to level up more We want to feel as if through adversity our characters are becoming stronger We would like some more loot. Not a ton, mind you, but some nice stuff that can make me feel good about my character. Fully embracing the 3.x system and its suggested encounter levels Some one to run a few premade 3.5 adventures to show everyone what the game designers were expecting when they developed the system. (MAKE SURE some one other than the 2 DMs DM this adventure. You can learn a lot by playing and watching how others DM, especially in a premade adventure). If that does not work, you can always vote with your feet. I know it sucks when this happens but some times a groups interests are too diverse too mesh and/or the players/DMs vision of what the game is supposed to be doesn't mesh. ~~ Also are there any living Greyhawk campaigns in your area? If so, I'd try to attend some by yourself or with other people (especially the 2 DMs). You can learn a lot from people who live for D&D like some of those people do. I know I did.
Archangel62 11-22-06, 02:21 AM	Players develop an attachment to characters that they enjoy and that they get a chance to flesh out. Part of the problem too is that they are also THINKING from 2nd edition terms which can be problematic. I know that I had that issue when I looked at some of the new stuff. The warlock initially looked obscenely overpowered, but then after I actually saw it in play and understood it better I found that it is actually a very balanced and fun class to play. Aside from talking to them maybe see about running a game yourself or trying a module, something like that can be fun and can give everyone a better idea for how the game works in this edition.
pinkbunny 11-22-06, 05:52 AM	next time you die, play a monk with Vow of poverty, if the DM makes it so you don't lose anything from it...
Varia 11-22-06, 08:05 AM	And for all of you who are about to write a 'nice' post back to me remember. I'm sitting at a computer that I can very easly walk away from and/or change web site at. IDC about how you think /I/ should be playing, nor do I care about how it is done at your house. me and my friends enjoy doing things our way...and yes to quell your comments I"m frequently asked to DM because my style is the preffered way in our gaggle. Particularly nice use of "I'll take my ball and go home" there. Kudos. The "I have lots of friends" followup was a nice touch too. :P Varia
babysamurai 11-22-06, 09:05 AM	The OP seems to have mixed up the term "old-fashioned" with "giant douche." Yes, it's true – give him an enema and see if that clears out his head. I’ve been DMing for almost 20 years, and I’ve always hated control-freak DM's.
Varia 11-22-06, 09:11 AM	I'd just like to second what Darkwarriorkarg said- this is NOT an old-fashioned dm youre dealing with, he's just a cheap tool control freak when it comes to DM-ing. It has nothing to do with game system or edition, its the DM thats the problem. You may or may not be able to edumacate him to better standards, but its likely to be a long hard road I'm afraid. Those perceptions of "how the game world should be" are usually pretty core, and hard to change without the DM deciding that he's not having fun anymore. I'm pretty tired of people regurgitating the idea that no gear, or no magic or no cash, or no exp (or all four!) were somehow normal back in the 1.0 or 2.0 days. Even the most cursory perusal of modules from back then would easily prove that to be a lie. I'll even do some of the reading for you so the long words dont cause any difficulty. Lemme see here:- Keep on the Borderlands, a classic D+D adventure for lvl 1 starting characters. Loot list- +1 arrow (6), +1 dagger, +1 axe, +1 battleaxe, +1 flaming sword, +1 snakestaff, +1 shield (4), +1 plate mail (2), rope of climbing, elven boots, wand of paralyzation (17 charges), wand of fireballs (9 charges), staff of healing, potions of healing (4), invisibility (2), gaseous form (2), stone to flesh (6),giant strength, scrolls of (fireball), (cure light wounds, find traps), (protection from undead) (2), (detect magic, hold person, silence 15' radius), plus a couple of poisons and a couple of cursed items. Enough exp to make it to lvl 3 or 4. And look- magic items! Oh, thats basic D+D? Ok, The Sinister Secret of Saltmarsh, then, which is a lvl 1 AD+D module whose legacy continues to the current day with the towns' inclusion in the 3.5 DMG2. Loot list- +1 longsword, +1 broadsword, +1 ring of protection (3), +1 plate mail, wand of magic detection (37 charges), potions of neutralise poison (3), healing (3), cure disease, speed, scrolls of (hold person), (gust of wind), and 3 spellbooks (1 illusionist, 2 magic-user), plus a potion of delusion and a cursed luckstone. Enough exp to make it to lvl 2. And look, enough toys for everyone to get a real toy, and a potion, and some spells for the casters. 18,500 gc, plus a further 1500gc per character, so everyone will have some cash too, even after training costs. And so on. So fer the love of christ, clam up about characters normally being poor in 1.0. 2.0 being player vs dm? Foolishness. The dm isnt against anybody. If he was, being able to conjure anything he damn well pleases as fast as he can think of it, it should be obvious to even the dimmest intellect that it would be a win for the DM in as long as it took him to say "youre all dead". The DM is a referee, not a player or an adversary. The idea that the DM is against the players, in any edition of any game, is idiocy, pure and simple. There are some goobers DMing games who are adversarial in one way or another, or keep the party poor, under their thumb, or whatever, but thats being a bad DM. It is NOT inherent in the system, as some like to claim. Put the blame where it belongs. Varia
Aratex 11-22-06, 10:20 AM	Some people (Varia being the most recent, and one of the most vocal) seem offended, so let me explain my use of the term "old-fashioned".. When I said that, I didn't mean to imply that all 2nd (and older) edition games were the way these guys played. I simply meant that they're resistant to changing from the way they've played in the past. After talking with both DMs again last night, I believe my only remaining options are to (a) run a high level premade adventure with them both as players so they can see what they're missing and hope they like it or (b) stop playing with them. I hate that it's come to this, but they refuse to see reason through simple conversation. The part about it that bothers me most is that we play at my apartment, and everyone else lives so spread apart that the entire game will end if I stop playing. I hate to make such a big decision for everyone, but at the same time, I know all the other players are frustrated.
Varia 11-22-06, 11:01 AM	Hey, I'm old, and I dont have a lawn to tell the damn kids to get off of, so I have to do something crochtety with my time! :P Nods, you may have just meant set in his ways, but most of the others didnt, and yes, its annoying sometimes. Top that off with a dumbass "dm vs players" comment, and well, they get a long post from me! I'm just cruel that way! :) Varia
Elemental_Elf 11-22-06, 12:34 PM	After talking with both DMs again last night, I believe my only remaining options are to (a) run a high level premade adventure with them both as players so they can see what they're missing and hope they like it or (b) stop playing with them. I hate that it's come to this, but they refuse to see reason through simple conversation. The part about it that bothers me most is that we play at my apartment, and everyone else lives so spread apart that the entire game will end if I stop playing. I hate to make such a big decision for everyone, but at the same time, I know all the other players are frustrated. Well I'd try option number 1 before 2, obviously, lol. If they resist another person DMing than you know they're control freaks and not worth playing. If they do let you DM than you need to make the adventure loads of fun and at a higher level than 1. Here's a list of most of the WotC published Per-made adventures (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Dungeons_%26_Dragons_adventures) . If the pre-made adventure fails to woo them than you have a decision to make.; continue to play a game you find boring; quit entirely and find a new group some where else; Tell everyone that you're calling the whole game off and they can't play at your house any longer, then call up your other friends (who aren't the DMs) and game with them. Oh, and you have 1 more option: The Threat. Seeing as how they game at your house you can use the threat of kicking everyone out as a means to force the DMs to play differently. This may sound underhanded but it isn't really. If you aren't having fun then why should they be allowed to have fun at your house, especially when they are not accommodating your preferred style of play. It isn't unreasonable, just practical.
pita 11-23-06, 02:26 AM	I'd seriously try DMing for those two. It's how I got to be taken seriously. It's how my players get to be taken seriously. When one of my players comes up to me and says "I'm not enjoying your games, because of so and so." I say "Make your own, and we'll see what system works better. If it turns out more fun with yours, I'll try it."
Stev Beren 11-23-06, 09:06 AM	Just curiosity; Why is it always considered 'Okay' for players to dictate the style to the DM, but not for the DM to dictate anythign to the players? If you had a DM threatening to kick out players because they wouldn't play his style, watch what the reaction woudl be. You know, the entire onus to 'get along' does not fall on the GM.
Archaelos 11-23-06, 11:34 AM	From the evidence on this thread, I find that I too must be a "bad DM", despite my 20+ years of experience (perhaps because of?) and despite my three seemingly content gaming groups. Why? Well, for one, I can't imagine ever letting magic items being sold in a shop on the streetcorner like common cheesecloth. I don't even run a "low magic" game, I just think magic should be special, not for sale at "Ed's Discount" for the low-low price of ten sackfuls of gold. Of course, not that anyone would have ten sacks of gold in my campaign, liquid wealth doesn't flow from a fountain, and my players more likely to hold grants from various nobilities and clerical organizations than to be handed a mass of cash. Why else? Ah, yes. I run a "Status Quo" world. That is, if the players get themselves in over their heads, so be it. They can negotiate, they can run, heck, they can even surrender (sometimes). But they won't always win, and they sure shouldn't expect to do so. Nor am I a killer DM though, if they choose to head off to the lair of the Ancient Red Dragon, they'll have plenty of foreshadowing and warnings against doing so, but if they ignore the plot...so be it. Course, none of my games have had a player death in a while now, so maybe they DID learn after all. Sharp bunch my players. And why else must I be a bad DM? I don't let my players dictate XP awards from the chart in the DMG. I can hear the sharp intake of breath even now from the readers of this thread. "How dare he" you say. I *dare*. I give XP awards as I see fit. And ya know what? Killing the BBEG when you didn't even *know* it was the BBEG? Not worth full XP by any stretch of the imagination, though I might cut ya a piece out of the kindness of my heart, it won't be a full slice of the pie. Last but not least, shock and horror, I examine all of my players character choices to be sure they fit my campaign (and the rules). I don't delve too deep, but I do check prereqs and my houseruled exclusions. Min/maxers, powergamers and munchkins are all welcome to try as they like, but I retain my DM veto. I admit I'm pretty new to D&D.. The group I play with has been playing for about 6 months, A whole six months ya say? Well, I'll be, and you already know more than a sackful of 1st Ed. DMs by the sound of it. I'm curiouser and curiouser, if you ain't played but with these fellas, and they play as they do, where by are you getting the idea that magic items should be found in the local "Ye OldeLaundry and Wondrous Items Shoppe" from anyhow? Could it be from these here message boards? Maybe from preconceptions put upon you by CRPGs? Not that I'm condemning or nothing, just curious is all. I can't seem to find the page number in the DMG where it says all items must be made for sale at a designated spot in each and every village, per Union Agreement #. they don't seem to get what the spirit of the game is now. (Or at the very least, what we as players want to be the spirit of the game.) Curiouser and curiouser. What would the spirit of the game be now in that its different in some way from the past? Buncha Monty Haul addicts runnin' around with Holy Hand Grenades? You think that terms NEW? You think the munhkins started chewin' the carpet sometime AFTER the gold box? So what is it you think the "spirit of the game" is now? And if'n this be their homebrew campaigns, ain't it the DMs who set the stage for that spirit in the first place? In short, they believe the game should be really really hard: Trust me, grasshopper, you ain't seen hard. -They both proudly state that they would never have magic items for sale in towns, claiming that would horribly unbalance the game... I mentioned it once, bears repeating though: by golly good for them. At the same time, they very rarely give magic items as loot, either... when the DM rolled a +1 sword as loot, he rerolled... Now, while I think a +1 sword might be a bit much for a lvl 2 party to get, what I do think the DM did wrong here (and you can quote me on this to his ancient and grizzled old timer face) was in rolling in front of you. He ought to have a treasure at least in mind before hand, after all, had their been a +1 sword laying about, why didn't that Paly use it to tan the backsides of your upstart party? They both believe in forced character retirement at level 15 Seems to me you're crossing bridges afore you ever have got to 'em. If you haven't hit 10 yet, why you worryin' your noggin' about 15 for? When you get to 13 or so, then might be the time to bring up continuing into higher (or even Epic) play. Does anyone have experience dealing with this kind of thing? How can we convince our DMs to let us have a game we (as players) can enjoy? Well, enjoyment comes from the doin', not in the bein' done. Least as how I see it. What's that mean? Means have fun where ya are. You got two fellas there takin' their time to make a world for you to explore and enjoy, might be you could have some fun exploring and enjoying. DMing is great fun, but to do it even half right takes a load of work, and lots of thought, and all that can go to the bad places in a basket of sourdough in a heartbeat if the players are ornery and cantakerous. Might be these two guys you're friends with have some inkling as to how to put togethor a fun story and game. Just maybe. Or, well, maybe not. In which case, get ready to walk and find another DM (or not as the case may be). Its unlikely they'll change all that much, though the more familiar with 3.x they become, the more comfortable they'll be with loots and treasures and CRs and such. In the end, maybe you and they want campaigns as different as apples and kiwis. Not that theirs anything at all wrong with New Zealander folk, but they don't have that crisp apple feel to 'em either. Just the tin plated pieces from an old crotchety (and apparently *bad*) DM.
babysamurai 11-23-06, 12:06 PM	Yeah, with DM's like this I might go for the Human Expert I've always wanted to try. I seriously think the Expert is a decent class – total Skill choice. I would UMD up the yingus!
Stev Beren 11-23-06, 01:31 PM	From the evidence on this thread, I find that I too must be a "bad DM", despite my 20+ years of experience (perhaps because of?) and despite my three seemingly content gaming groups. Why? Well, for one, I can't imagine ever letting magic items being sold in a shop on the streetcorner like common cheesecloth. I don't even run a "low magic" game, I just think magic should be special, not for sale at "Ed's Discount" for the low-low price of ten sackfuls of gold. Of course, not that anyone would have ten sacks of gold in my campaign, liquid wealth doesn't flow from a fountain, and my players more likely to hold grants from various nobilities and clerical organizations than to be handed a mass of cash. Why else? Ah, yes. I run a "Status Quo" world. That is, if the players get themselves in over their heads, so be it. They can negotiate, they can run, heck, they can even surrender (sometimes). But they won't always win, and they sure shouldn't expect to do so. Nor am I a killer DM though, if they choose to head off to the lair of the Ancient Red Dragon, they'll have plenty of foreshadowing and warnings against doing so, but if they ignore the plot...so be it. Course, none of my games have had a player death in a while now, so maybe they DID learn after all. Sharp bunch my players. And why else must I be a bad DM? I don't let my players dictate XP awards from the chart in the DMG. I can hear the sharp intake of breath even now from the readers of this thread. "How dare he" you say. I *dare*. I give XP awards as I see fit. And ya know what? Killing the BBEG when you didn't even *know* it was the BBEG? Not worth full XP by any stretch of the imagination, though I might cut ya a piece out of the kindness of my heart, it won't be a full slice of the pie. Last but not least, shock and horror, I examine all of my players character choices to be sure they fit my campaign (and the rules). I don't delve too deep, but I do check prereqs and my houseruled exclusions. Min/maxers, powergamers and munchkins are all welcome to try as they like, but I retain my DM veto. A whole six months ya say? Well, I'll be, and you already know more than a sackful of 1st Ed. DMs by the sound of it. I'm curiouser and curiouser, if you ain't played but with these fellas, and they play as they do, where by are you getting the idea that magic items should be found in the local "Ye OldeLaundry and Wondrous Items Shoppe" from anyhow? Could it be from these here message boards? Maybe from preconceptions put upon you by CRPGs? Not that I'm condemning or nothing, just curious is all. I can't seem to find the page number in the DMG where it says all items must be made for sale at a designated spot in each and every village, per Union Agreement #. Curiouser and curiouser. What would the spirit of the game be now in that its different in some way from the past? Buncha Monty Haul addicts runnin' around with Holy Hand Grenades? You think that terms NEW? You think the munhkins started chewin' the carpet sometime AFTER the gold box? So what is it you think the "spirit of the game" is now? And if'n this be their homebrew campaigns, ain't it the DMs who set the stage for that spirit in the first place? Trust me, grasshopper, you ain't seen hard. I mentioned it once, bears repeating though: by golly good for them. Now, while I think a +1 sword might be a bit much for a lvl 2 party to get, what I do think the DM did wrong here (and you can quote me on this to his ancient and grizzled old timer face) was in rolling in front of you. He ought to have a treasure at least in mind before hand, after all, had their been a +1 sword laying about, why didn't that Paly use it to tan the backsides of your upstart party? Seems to me you're crossing bridges afore you ever have got to 'em. If you haven't hit 10 yet, why you worryin' your noggin' about 15 for? When you get to 13 or so, then might be the time to bring up continuing into higher (or even Epic) play. Well, enjoyment comes from the doin', not in the bein' done. Least as how I see it. What's that mean? Means have fun where ya are. You got two fellas there takin' their time to make a world for you to explore and enjoy, might be you could have some fun exploring and enjoying. DMing is great fun, but to do it even half right takes a load of work, and lots of thought, and all that can go to the bad places in a basket of sourdough in a heartbeat if the players are ornery and cantakerous. Might be these two guys you're friends with have some inkling as to how to put togethor a fun story and game. Just maybe. Or, well, maybe not. In which case, get ready to walk and find another DM (or not as the case may be). Its unlikely they'll change all that much, though the more familiar with 3.x they become, the more comfortable they'll be with loots and treasures and CRs and such. In the end, maybe you and they want campaigns as different as apples and kiwis. Not that theirs anything at all wrong with New Zealander folk, but they don't have that crisp apple feel to 'em either. Just the tin plated pieces from an old crotchety (and apparently *bad*) DM. Can I join your "Bad GM' club? DO we get a codeword and handshake?
Barlo_Browns 11-24-06, 09:16 AM	Originally Posted by Archaelos View Post From the evidence on this thread, I find that I too must be a "bad DM", despite my 20+ years of experience (perhaps because of?) and despite my three seemingly content gaming groups. Why? Well, for one, I can't imagine ever letting magic items being sold in a shop on the streetcorner like common cheesecloth. I don't even run a "low magic" game, I just think magic should be special, not for sale at "Ed's Discount" for the low-low price of ten sackfuls of gold. Of course, not that anyone would have ten sacks of gold in my campaign, liquid wealth doesn't flow from a fountain, and my players more likely to hold grants from various nobilities and clerical organizations than to be handed a mass of cash. Why else? Ah, yes. I run a "Status Quo" world. That is, if the players get themselves in over their heads, so be it. They can negotiate, they can run, heck, they can even surrender (sometimes). But they won't always win, and they sure shouldn't expect to do so. Nor am I a killer DM though, if they choose to head off to the lair of the Ancient Red Dragon, they'll have plenty of foreshadowing and warnings against doing so, but if they ignore the plot...so be it. Course, none of my games have had a player death in a while now, so maybe they DID learn after all. Sharp bunch my players. And why else must I be a bad DM? I don't let my players dictate XP awards from the chart in the DMG. I can hear the sharp intake of breath even now from the readers of this thread. "How dare he" you say. I *dare*. I give XP awards as I see fit. And ya know what? Killing the BBEG when you didn't even *know* it was the BBEG? Not worth full XP by any stretch of the imagination, though I might cut ya a piece out of the kindness of my heart, it won't be a full slice of the pie. Last but not least, shock and horror, I examine all of my players character choices to be sure they fit my campaign (and the rules). I don't delve too deep, but I do check prereqs and my houseruled exclusions. Min/maxers, powergamers and munchkins are all welcome to try as they like, but I retain my DM veto. A whole six months ya say? Well, I'll be, and you already know more than a sackful of 1st Ed. DMs by the sound of it. I'm curiouser and curiouser, if you ain't played but with these fellas, and they play as they do, where by are you getting the idea that magic items should be found in the local "Ye OldeLaundry and Wondrous Items Shoppe" from anyhow? Could it be from these here message boards? Maybe from preconceptions put upon you by CRPGs? Not that I'm condemning or nothing, just curious is all. I can't seem to find the page number in the DMG where it says all items must be made for sale at a designated spot in each and every village, per Union Agreement #. Curiouser and curiouser. What would the spirit of the game be now in that its different in some way from the past? Buncha Monty Haul addicts runnin' around with Holy Hand Grenades? You think that terms NEW? You think the munhkins started chewin' the carpet sometime AFTER the gold box? So what is it you think the "spirit of the game" is now? And if'n this be their homebrew campaigns, ain't it the DMs who set the stage for that spirit in the first place? Trust me, grasshopper, you ain't seen hard. I mentioned it once, bears repeating though: by golly good for them. Now, while I think a +1 sword might be a bit much for a lvl 2 party to get, what I do think the DM did wrong here (and you can quote me on this to his ancient and grizzled old timer face) was in rolling in front of you. He ought to have a treasure at least in mind before hand, after all, had their been a +1 sword laying about, why didn't that Paly use it to tan the backsides of your upstart party? Seems to me you're crossing bridges afore you ever have got to 'em. If you haven't hit 10 yet, why you worryin' your noggin' about 15 for? When you get to 13 or so, then might be the time to bring up continuing into higher (or even Epic) play. Well, enjoyment comes from the doin', not in the bein' done. Least as how I see it. What's that mean? Means have fun where ya are. You got two fellas there takin' their time to make a world for you to explore and enjoy, might be you could have some fun exploring and enjoying. DMing is great fun, but to do it even half right takes a load of work, and lots of thought, and all that can go to the bad places in a basket of sourdough in a heartbeat if the players are ornery and cantakerous. Might be these two guys you're friends with have some inkling as to how to put togethor a fun story and game. Just maybe. Or, well, maybe not. In which case, get ready to walk and find another DM (or not as the case may be). Its unlikely they'll change all that much, though the more familiar with 3.x they become, the more comfortable they'll be with loots and treasures and CRs and such. In the end, maybe you and they want campaigns as different as apples and kiwis. Not that theirs anything at all wrong with New Zealander folk, but they don't have that crisp apple feel to 'em either. Just the tin plated pieces from an old crotchety (and apparently *bad*) DM. I hate to break it to you, but that just makes caster classes better. Hell, it makes DRUID (the best class core-only) even better. Low-magic is incredibly inane and the tool of power-hungry DM's in most cases, period.
Gorteck 11-24-06, 09:40 AM	I admit I'm pretty new to D&D.. The group I play with has been playing for about 6 months, and all of us are new players except for two. The two with prior experience have been taking turns DMing two different campaigns, which gives them both plenty of time to prepare material between sessions. Both of our DMs have several years experience as players and DMs, but until 6 months ago, neither had played since 2nd edition, and while they seem to have adapted to the new rules pretty well, they don't seem to get what the spirit of the game is now. (Or at the very least, what we as players want to be the spirit of the game.) In short, they believe the game should be really really hard: -Our character builds have to be OK'd in advance to make sure they're not "too powerful" by some arbitrary and undefined standard (for example, I was told I couldn't play a warlock, due to not having a limit on eldritch blast use).. -They both proudly state that they would never have magic items for sale in towns, claiming that would horribly unbalance the game... At the same time, they very rarely give magic items as loot, either... (Example: Last night in the harder of the campaigns, our level 2 party - level 2 in 6 months, told you it was hard, lots of deaths - killed a level 5 cleric and his level 4 paladin sidekick, and when the DM rolled a +1 sword as loot, he rerolled because that was too powerful for us.) -They both believe in forced character retirement at level 15, because after that "there's just nothing that could possibly challenge [us] anyway and it wouldn't be fun anymore." I know the majority of our problems with the game are due to our DMs clinging to their idea of how they wanted the game to be in the past, or perhaps even the way they were taught it in the first place.. and while we certainly don't want a purely hack-and-slash campaign, it would be nice to have more battle-ready characters.. For example, one of our campaigns, our party level is 9, and every character is still wearing their starting equipment armor, and only one character has a magic weapon. Does anyone have experience dealing with this kind of thing? How can we convince our DMs to let us have a game we (as players) can enjoy? Im going to side with the DM's on this for a bit tho i agree with u on some reguards ... 1:At lvl 2 you normoly dount have +1 items (Thats normoly at lvl 4 or higher) 2:Ok so what if there not selling magicol items? I think the DM's are playing a Rare or Uncommen Magic setting where magic isnt that commen there for Magicole items should be treated like arterfacts ... i have a arterfact im not selling it to you dude ... 3:talk to the DM's and make it where magic is more commen of a use ... it sounds like there playing back where magic isnt very commen And starting gear? ... Well i think then you should start useing lame tastics that dount require Magic or realy good items ... like the halfling fighter at lvl 1 doing a bunch of damage (Sep make it where ur higher then level 1) and you dount need loot to do it ... 4:in my game i dount mind magic being used ... coz i know its not as UBER as eveyone states sure its Nice but i can counter it with magic of my own or something eles the DM's probly dount fully understand magic in 3.5 isnt as powerfull as it was back in 2.0 5:i would sate a few more but there long ass paragraphs and i dount want to keep on talking ...
Gorteck 11-24-06, 09:48 AM	I hate to break it to you, but that just makes caster classes better. Hell, it makes DRUID (the best class core-only) even better. Low-magic is incredibly inane and the tool of power-hungry DM's in most cases, period. i could easyoly argue agest this point ... im a Core only (Mostly) Type of player and the only non core race i use is Woodelf or something eles with no LA in the monster or DMG ... and i can very much argue that in a low magic game it makes spell casters very powerfull ... but i can see ur point on some reguards ...
Rangerman 11-24-06, 10:05 AM	Write down your issues with the DMs: make it clear non confrontational. Maybe think of telling the DM in advance you want to talk about the game issues you guys have so they don't feel like they've been ambushed. Elect a single speaker but make it clear that they speak for all of the players. Don't gang up against the DM. I've seen groups disentigrate and feelings get hurt when discussions get heated especially when all of the players start venting against the DM. That's why I say get one speaker. Don't get mad. Just explain that you guys feel frustrated as you can't get involved with your characters since they die. I've been in games before where it was impossible to damage the creatures the DM was putting against us as the lack of magic items made it impossible so I've been there and I'm crossing my fingers for you. Just as an aside: I would not be upset over not having a magic item at 2nd level but I don't understand why the DM used the chart if he wasn't going to abide by the rolls. Stev Berem I wouldn't say your a bad DM. I don't understand the negative tone you seem to have against younger players though. Yeah the older systems were slower and didn't focus as much on the power of PCs but they aren't playing the older systems. Concerning magic items:To me magic items wouldn't be in every shop or even every village but they do have gold values attached so I think that the rules intend for them to be sold. Concerning level caps: How can they make it to level 10+ if they die at low levels. How can they avoid character death if they aren't equipped properly. Roleplay? Maybe, but if they aren't given xp for roleplay then the DM isn't encouraging roleplay and I don't think he should be surprised if they try to solve problems with a sword.
kelvinaw273 11-24-06, 12:22 PM	In short, they believe the game should be really really hard: Well, that's a matter of style. -Our character builds have to be OK'd in advance to make sure they're not "too powerful" by some arbitrary and undefined standard (for example, I was told I couldn't play a warlock, due to not having a limit on eldritch blast use).. This is perfectly normal - I do this too, and once you have had a munchkin try to slip into your game with 18 scores in all stats and three more feats than they should have, so will you. The Warlock is actually quite powerful at low-mid levels, it isn't until you hit the highs that the Warlock drops in relative power. -They both proudly state that they would never have magic items for sale in towns, claiming that would horribly unbalance the game... At the same time, they very rarely give magic items as loot, either... (Example: Last night in the harder of the campaigns, our level 2 party - level 2 in 6 months, told you it was hard, lots of deaths - killed a level 5 cleric and his level 4 paladin sidekick, and when the DM rolled a +1 sword as loot, he rerolled because that was too powerful for us.) So it's a low magic setting. Bear in mind though that any items they used against you, you should have had. This sounds odd that the DM did not check their treasure in advance and do this .... -They both believe in forced character retirement at level 15, because after that "there's just nothing that could possibly challenge [us] anyway and it wouldn't be fun anymore." Actually, it's just hard to DM for. It can actually be a LOT of fun. I know the majority of our problems with the game are due to our DMs clinging to their idea of how they wanted the game to be in the past, or perhaps even the way they were taught it in the first place.. and while we certainly don't want a purely hack-and-slash campaign, it would be nice to have more battle-ready characters.. For example, one of our campaigns, our party level is 9, and every character is still wearing their starting equipment armor, and only one character has a magic weapon. Make that an extremely low magic setting - this is rather extreme, I have to admit. This is not clinging to 1st/2nd ed, it's being downright stingy. To my mind these DMs don't like to be challenged by players. They don't want adventure plots derailed by a spell, item or imaginative use of such that they didn't foresee. My advice is run your own adventures for a while to 'give them a break'.
Dragon_loving_DM 11-24-06, 04:35 PM	I'm going to leave this while quote here because I belive this person to be a god now. From the evidence on this thread, I find that I too must be a "bad DM", despite my 20+ years of experience (perhaps because of?) and despite my three seemingly content gaming groups. Why? Well, for one, I can't imagine ever letting magic items being sold in a shop on the streetcorner like common cheesecloth. I don't even run a "low magic" game, I just think magic should be special, not for sale at "Ed's Discount" for the low-low price of ten sackfuls of gold. Of course, not that anyone would have ten sacks of gold in my campaign, liquid wealth doesn't flow from a fountain, and my players more likely to hold grants from various nobilities and clerical organizations than to be handed a mass of cash. Why else? Ah, yes. I run a "Status Quo" world. That is, if the players get themselves in over their heads, so be it. They can negotiate, they can run, heck, they can even surrender (sometimes). But they won't always win, and they sure shouldn't expect to do so. Nor am I a killer DM though, if they choose to head off to the lair of the Ancient Red Dragon, they'll have plenty of foreshadowing and warnings against doing so, but if they ignore the plot...so be it. Course, none of my games have had a player death in a while now, so maybe they DID learn after all. Sharp bunch my players. And why else must I be a bad DM? I don't let my players dictate XP awards from the chart in the DMG. I can hear the sharp intake of breath even now from the readers of this thread. "How dare he" you say. I *dare*. I give XP awards as I see fit. And ya know what? Killing the BBEG when you didn't even *know* it was the BBEG? Not worth full XP by any stretch of the imagination, though I might cut ya a piece out of the kindness of my heart, it won't be a full slice of the pie. Last but not least, shock and horror, I examine all of my players character choices to be sure they fit my campaign (and the rules). I don't delve too deep, but I do check prereqs and my houseruled exclusions. Min/maxers, powergamers and munchkins are all welcome to try as they like, but I retain my DM veto. A whole six months ya say? Well, I'll be, and you already know more than a sackful of 1st Ed. DMs by the sound of it. I'm curiouser and curiouser, if you ain't played but with these fellas, and they play as they do, where by are you getting the idea that magic items should be found in the local "Ye OldeLaundry and Wondrous Items Shoppe" from anyhow? Could it be from these here message boards? Maybe from preconceptions put upon you by CRPGs? Not that I'm condemning or nothing, just curious is all. I can't seem to find the page number in the DMG where it says all items must be made for sale at a designated spot in each and every village, per Union Agreement #. Curiouser and curiouser. What would the spirit of the game be now in that its different in some way from the past? Buncha Monty Haul addicts runnin' around with Holy Hand Grenades? You think that terms NEW? You think the munhkins started chewin' the carpet sometime AFTER the gold box? So what is it you think the "spirit of the game" is now? And if'n this be their homebrew campaigns, ain't it the DMs who set the stage for that spirit in the first place? Trust me, grasshopper, you ain't seen hard. I mentioned it once, bears repeating though: by golly good for them. Now, while I think a +1 sword might be a bit much for a lvl 2 party to get, what I do think the DM did wrong here (and you can quote me on this to his ancient and grizzled old timer face) was in rolling in front of you. He ought to have a treasure at least in mind before hand, after all, had their been a +1 sword laying about, why didn't that Paly use it to tan the backsides of your upstart party? Seems to me you're crossing bridges afore you ever have got to 'em. If you haven't hit 10 yet, why you worryin' your noggin' about 15 for? When you get to 13 or so, then might be the time to bring up continuing into higher (or even Epic) play. Well, enjoyment comes from the doin', not in the bein' done. Least as how I see it. What's that mean? Means have fun where ya are. You got two fellas there takin' their time to make a world for you to explore and enjoy, might be you could have some fun exploring and enjoying. DMing is great fun, but to do it even half right takes a load of work, and lots of thought, and all that can go to the bad places in a basket of sourdough in a heartbeat if the players are ornery and cantakerous. Might be these two guys you're friends with have some inkling as to how to put togethor a fun story and game. Just maybe. Or, well, maybe not. In which case, get ready to walk and find another DM (or not as the case may be). Its unlikely they'll change all that much, though the more familiar with 3.x they become, the more comfortable they'll be with loots and treasures and CRs and such. In the end, maybe you and they want campaigns as different as apples and kiwis. Not that theirs anything at all wrong with New Zealander folk, but they don't have that crisp apple feel to 'em either. Just the tin plated pieces from an old crotchety (and apparently *bad*) DM. I would also like to add that the man that trained me to be a DM has read this thread and he has yet to play 3.anything simply because of stuff like this. I agree with the person I just quoted and would like to shake that guys hand for a job well done. you took the words right out of my head. Thank you:bow::bravo: Keep up the good work
The man they call Boxhead 11-24-06, 06:22 PM	I think maybe 3.5 is not the D&D for your DMs. Nor for many of the grizzled old-timers who seem to be chipping in here. I can't even imagine a game where you couldn't live to see 3rd level. I mean, if you have to roll up a new character every 2 weeks, how is the plot developing? What is making this constant river of adventurers go forth? No magic item shops is a perfectly reasonable choice. No magic items for sale period is not. Where did the evil fighter get his sword? Why would wizards make magic weapons at all? All it does is decrease their personal power. Or maybe every evil fighter has a wizard crafter buddy? In a regular world, there will be people who make magic items to sell for a profit. These people likely will not set up a shop, but will instead either have a few items stashed some place, or make everything on commision. No offense, but I too am a DM that has been doing this for 15 years. The way 3.5 is designed, people level quickly and Magic has to be able to be bought and sold. Do they limit the spells a wizard can buy on scrolls? Do villains have equipment they use? Sorry for the rant, I just can't stand when people gsay "shut up and enjoy the game you've got". I find it supremely condescending.
Aratex 11-24-06, 07:49 PM	I mean, if you have to roll up a new character every 2 weeks, how is the plot developing? What is making this constant river of adventurers go forth? Well, he hasn't yet managed to kill the entire party at once, so the surviving party members keep returning to town to look for new companions.. The way 3.5 is designed, people level quickly and Magic has to be able to be bought and sold. Do they limit the spells a wizard can buy on scrolls? Wizards can buy scrolls? Not in my world. If you haven't killed a wizard with a book containing the spell, you can't cast it, period. In fact, in my level 9 party, the wizard still hasn't run across a single level 3 or higher spell, and only has maybe four level 2 spells.
Elemental_Elf 11-24-06, 08:15 PM	Well, he hasn't yet managed to kill the entire party at once, so the surviving party members keep returning to town to look for new companions.. Wizards can buy scrolls? Not in my world. If you haven't killed a wizard with a book containing the spell, you can't cast it, period. In fact, in my level 9 party, the wizard still hasn't run across a single level 3 or higher spell, and only has maybe four level 2 spells. WHA!? That is seriously messed up. What about that little section in the Player's Handbook that specifically states the Wizard gets 2 new spells per level? At each new wizard level, she gains two new spells of any spell level or levels that she can cast (based on her new wizard level) for her spellbook. At any time, a wizard can also add spells found in other wizards’ spellbooks to her own. Its in the RULES. I can understand not letting him/her acquire large sums of extra spells but those 2 per level are the Wizards life blood! With out them the Wizard is useless, or at the very least incredibly useless. Seriously not letting the Wizard get his 2 free bees is like denying the Fighter his BAB or the rogue his Sneak Attacks. With out those spells the Wizard is a useless character. You need to get your DMs to wake up and read the actual 3.5 rules, not some quaint notion of 2.0 Rules semi-updated in a manner they see as fitting their past experiences in 2.0. Seriously, you need to confront them on this and demand, yes demand; they run campaigns by the Core Rules, no house rules; at least a few adventures to get the hand of 3.5. Truthfully, you should do this. Run a module with Core only rules. Then if the DMs don't like the system, tell them you will not play with them. It's as simple as that. If they don't want to comply with the basic rules for the 3.5 Game, then you don't need them to DM, or even show up. They can play their bastardized game some where else. You need to take a firm stance and change things.
Morrowner 11-24-06, 08:22 PM	A few ways to go about this... 1. Out harsh a harsh DM. The spiked chain/fullblade, crafting checks in the 35s, enlarge person, 2 clerics in the party, running, terrain, crossbow using squad. Or other nasty tactics you come up with yourself. Pros: You'll actually live and level... Cons: Until the DM pulls that "Oops! I haven't ran this in 15 years, how was I supposed to know that you couldn't handle a Troll Barbarian?" baloney. If a DM wants you dead, you are dead. 2: Suggest that you run a one shot adventure. A dungeon delve from the Miniatures Handbook or any adventures you have or a tweaked freebie adventure from Wizards would be ideal. Pros: Not a lot of prep time, could be fun for the others, could show the Gimpmaster, I mean Dungeon Master what style of game you want. Cons: You'll have to do a little prepping, learn the rules enough to run a game, and convince Grognard to let you take the reins. So what should you do? Get him some Hackmaster books for Christmas. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/45/RPG_hackmaster_cover.jpg
Aratex 11-24-06, 09:11 PM	WHA!? That is seriously messed up. What about that little section in the Player's Handbook that specifically states the Wizard gets 2 new spells per level? That was deemed unrealistic. A full-time adventuring wizard would no longer be spending all his time sitting in a library studying new spells, according to my DMs. Also, the rules are pretty much considered loose guidelines by them both. I have an issue with that almost every time we play, here are two examples off the top of my head: "Ok, you're flanked so all three of these guys just barely hit you." "I'm a level 8 rogue. I can't be flanked. Since level 6. It says right here." "That's stupid, you're surrounded so you're flanked. Take 18 damage." "I take a 5 foot step to attack the boss." "OK, both the guys threatening you get attacks of opportunity." "A 5 foot step never incurs attacks of opportunity... and I have 4 hit points left, because I'm a level 1 trying to melee with a swarm of level 3-5 guys. I guess I'll stay here and fight."
Elemental_Elf 11-24-06, 09:21 PM	... Ok they obviously have no concept of RULES in D&D 3.5. Tell them to read the rules and abide by them. You guys aren't playing some fanciful game where the rules are just guidelines and the Dm can do what ever he wants, when ever he wants. The rules are there for a purpose; that purpose is to establish a common thread for dealing with very complex and abstract concepts, quickly and efficiently. If they want to play loose and fast with the rules and try it implant 2.0 conventions into 3.5, let them; just make sure they are not doing it at your house and when you're not playing. They obviously need to realize that 3.5 and 2.0 are VERY different games. Seriously, these guys have no idea how to play D&D 3.5. Get rid of them and get on with the fun that is D&D with the remaining friends and maybe some new ones you might meet at a local hobby shop.
Fortebraccio 11-24-06, 09:47 PM	I mildly disagree with Archaelos. When I am the DM, my first concern is to make sure my players have fun. I dislike Monty Haul as much as he does, but I'm aware that low-magic games are extremely problematic, as they tend to aggravate the already existing unbalance between casters and non casters (and between high-CR monsters and high-level non casters). So, even when I'm tempted to get rid of wealth per level charts, to scrap the notion that given a large enough settlement a certain item will be available at a predictable cost, to trump all those design features that seriously threaten suspension of disbelief, I keep in mind that they can still be valuable as an audit tool. I expect my players to know the rules and use them to their advantage, since this is a role-playing GAME, and in return I'm expected to know, understand and be consistent with the rules as well. Otherwise players wouldn't feel in charge of their characters, and this in my opinion defeats the purpose of playing a game.
Morrowner 11-24-06, 10:03 PM	They ignore the rules? THEY IGNORE THE RULES!?!?!?!?! No Hackmaster for them. And how did you put on 6 levels? Are you running a different campaign that started higher because you were campaigning about leveling slowly. Only level 8 after 6 months of playing seems very slow to me but if you don't meet often, have lots of player killing, and don't fight that often and don't get XP unless you get a confirmed kill on something ( no mission completion, good suggestions, in character, best player/MVP awards) I could see why you'd progress that slow. Lastly, this phrase from a DM always sticks in my craw. "That isn't realistic" Is he aware that he is running a fantasy campaign where people can chop down enormous enemies with swords and flambe opponents with some arm waving, word mumbling jiggerypokery? Whenever I hear that I think "Dammit, man! I can hardly do anything in my real life, at least let me do fantastic things in a fantasy world. We could roll Diplomacy Checks for family rows, Knowledge(Chemistry) to see if I get a D or an F on the big exam, and Profession(Dishwashing) to see how many copper pieces I pull down at the supper club for the next 5 hours or we could actually play the bloody game the way the rules tell us it should be played. Sorry, but I'd rather kill evil things and take their stuff."
Aratex 11-24-06, 10:54 PM	And how did you put on 6 levels? Are you running a different campaign that started higher because you were campaigning about leveling slowly. Only level 8 after 6 months of playing seems very slow to me but if you don't meet often, have lots of player killing, and don't fight that often and don't get XP unless you get a confirmed kill on something ( no mission completion, good suggestions, in character, best player/MVP awards) I could see why you'd progress that slow. I suppose it was poorly worded originally, but we have two campaigns going simultaneously. For DM #1, we're level 8-9 after 6 months. For DM #2, we're level 1-2 after about the same amount of time. We play every week, and for the last 2 months or so, we've alternated DMs weekly. (Before that, we played two nights a week.) We've never had any party infighting, but we also don't get any experience for anything other than killing. (None of the bonuses you suggested, and also the rogue gets nothing for all his extra trap and lock related work.)
Sphyre 11-25-06, 01:39 AM	Then maybe offer to DM a game yourself so your friends know what a fun game is like. You've got a whole forum worth of people willing to help you flesh out any idea you can conjure. And when all else fails, there's always the hammergun. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif That's what I'd suggest. Try to learn the rules and start brainstorming exactly what you'd like to play. Give DMing a shot, listen to your players and be the good DM. Sure, you may not find that you like to DM as much as you like to play, but you won't know until you try. And your friends will have a lot of fun too. I know I learned a lot my first times DMing, and I'm now at the point that I'm very happy with the way I DM, in fact, I'm looking forward to game every week now, now that my current campaign is fleshed out, and the world, NPCs, and PCs are all very alive. I really enjoy playing as a player, but at the same time, being a DM is a lot of fun too. I give my players something they've never experienced before. A fully open ended, wonderful world to explore with many different plots that they can choose based on their personalities. As long as you're having fun, it's worth all the work you put into preparing... and it may show your current DMs that there's more than one way to play D&D. Don't be afraid to have fun, and leave behind those who choose to make D&D a task, not a game.
kelvinaw273 11-25-06, 05:09 AM	That was deemed unrealistic. A full-time adventuring wizard would no longer be spending all his time sitting in a library studying new spells, according to my DMs. Also, the rules are pretty much considered loose guidelines by them both. I have an issue with that almost every time we play, here are two examples off the top of my head: "Ok, you're flanked so all three of these guys just barely hit you." "I'm a level 8 rogue. I can't be flanked. Since level 6. It says right here." "That's stupid, you're surrounded so you're flanked. Take 18 damage." "I take a 5 foot step to attack the boss." "OK, both the guys threatening you get attacks of opportunity." "A 5 foot step never incurs attacks of opportunity... and I have 4 hit points left, because I'm a level 1 trying to melee with a swarm of level 3-5 guys. I guess I'll stay here and fight." Now that is tight ... so tight it squeaks! Yes, the DM could and should overide the rules in extreme circumstances, but not on a consistant basis as these guys so clearly do! I suggest that you demand they give you a list of rules changes they implement before you play so your characters understand exactly what they can and cannot do. But further, run a game playing directly from the rules by the book. On the 'Magic Item Shops' idea ... I don't do them either. If you have the gold you can commission items from an artificer or mage, but there are no shops full of them. Whenever I put a shop into a campaign I ALWAYS had a PC who decided they juat had to burglar it, and I have gotten tired of it.
crowclub 11-25-06, 05:40 AM	The best solution to your problem is....... Print out this thread and give it to him.
Tetsubo 11-25-06, 09:28 AM	I think the first thing you said, about how Warlocks are too powerful, tells me your GM doesn't understand balance. And I am not one to bow to the altar of balance. But an ability that can be used ONCE per round and requires a roll to hit (yes I know, it's a ranged touch attack) is not "too powerful". That's like saying Fighters are too powerful because they get to swing a sword once a round. Even more often at higher levels! If your GM can't grasp this, leave the group. Go find a game that is better suited to your gaming style.
Gahread 11-25-06, 11:06 AM	Looks like you really have a handful of options: 1. Start DMing yourself. Your current DM is just plain a prick. Core class abilities don't go away because they seem a little unbelievable; that's the whole point. 2. Break his game. I'm talking Pun Pun level breakage. Make some silly little level 1 or level 2 ultra-optimized character that does hideous amounts of damage. With the right setup you can break 50 damage even at those levels. When he complains or nerfs you, ask him to point out now, for the record, which rules apply and which rules don't, so you can get an accurate idea of what the actual rules of his game are. Write out the class abilities that function and the ones that don't, how combat mechanics work and so on. It's not an unreasonable request. He's obviously not playing 3.5, so unless you're playing Paranoia, you have a right to know what he is playing. 3. Ask him to read this thread so he can see what other people think of his DMing style. If your players are whining, that's one thing. If people not even connected to the game think he's being stupid, that's another. 4. Find another group, if possible. If you don't feel up to or don't want to DM, and this is how he plays, find someplace else where you can actually have fun.
kelvinaw273 11-25-06, 01:59 PM	1. Start DMing yourself. Your current DM is just plain a prick. Core class abilities don't go away because they seem a little unbelievable; that's the whole point. I agree with DMing himself, I think that's the best way. Sometimes, as I stated above, in extreme circumstances they don't apply IMO, but those are exceptions, not the rule. Name calling, however, is not a mature solution. 2. Break his game. I'm talking Pun Pun level breakage. Make some silly little level 1 or level 2 ultra-optimized character that does hideous amounts of damage. With the right setup you can break 50 damage even at those levels. When he complains or nerfs you, ask him to point out now, for the record, which rules apply and which rules don't, so you can get an accurate idea of what the actual rules of his game are. Write out the class abilities that function and the ones that don't, how combat mechanics work and so on. It's not an unreasonable request. He's obviously not playing 3.5, so unless you're playing Paranoia, you have a right to know what he is playing. Well d'uh! I honestly cannot think of a better way of convincing these DMs that their way is best than this. Showing them how the system can be abused is not the solution to a DM who thinks the system is already in dire need of rectitude. 3. Ask him to read this thread so he can see what other people think of his DMing style. If your players are whining, that's one thing. If people not even connected to the game think he's being stupid, that's another. That's not a bad point, but they feel misrepresented, and some of the comments are rather inflamatory - such as under (1) above. 4. Find another group, if possible. If you don't feel up to or don't want to DM, and this is how he plays, find someplace else where you can actually have fun. This is always the last option, but yes you can vote with your feet if you need to.
Archaelos 11-25-06, 02:25 PM	To the fellow "bad DMs" who have replied: greetings, salutations, and thank you for your support. The secret handshake, password, and official by-laws of the "Bad DMs Society" are still under debate, and subject at all times to Rule 0. Your interest is duly noted. Interesting how several folks seem to be under the rather strange impression that I run a low magic campaign and therefore need chastisement about class balance. That the Druid's a powerhouse is undeniable, that is, no one can deny its blowin' a lot of theorycraft that may or may not be relevant to any given campaign. Its pert near danged irrelevant in my campaign, as I actually read and enforce the Druid's rather rigid class limitations. Wizards not getting their 2 spells a level? Well, I find that unpalatable myself, but I have seen it mentioned as method of low-magic campaign balance so that casters don't get all overpowered next to the grunt classes. Course, hardly applies in my case, as I don't run a low magic campaign. Heh. Never said I did. In fact, I specifically said I didn't. I still don't. I just don't have magic shops set up around town with cryers out front broadcasting the latest shipment of Wondrous Items, Magic Rings, and Staves, Rods and Wands. No bulk scroll purchases neither. None of which means such items can't be found, generally for commission, special order, or agent requisition. If you walk into a smithy in my towns, they don't have swords and suits of plate in stock neither, has to be custom made to order. (Obviously, should you be hitting up a specialist smith at a tourney, or likewise, a convention, trade faire or some such of magic users, then results may vary.) There are a few spells restricted in my campaign, and a dozen or so items I don't allow, but that's mostly for flavor rather than power level reasons. Now, onto my questions, of which I have several: 1) You say you got flanked, and as a mid-level rogue you're a bit miffed about this. Now, could be, as you reckon, the DM in question doesn't have a whit of understanding of how rogues and flanking mix. However, before we start lambasting their lack of rules-savvy, I must ask: do you know the exception to that there flanking rule? And how do you know you positively that your flankers did not in any way meet that rules specified exception? I'm not sure how you could unless you're privy to every NPC character sheet, which, well, would just be plain wrong if so. 2) I can't comment much on the power balance of the warlock, as I only know of the class in passing. However, the once per round touch attack magic thing, well, that wouldn't fit the flavor of my campaign one whit. Not that its "unbalanced", honestly, I just don't like it. It ain't core, so why should I have to allow it? That was a rhetorical question, btw. The real question is: while you object to a class, such as the warlock, being banned for balance considerations, do you equally object to such a ban based on DM fiat, or on the notion that the ban is based on flavor or style connotations for the particular campaign in question? 3) Has the game really become so confrontational as all this? I see suggestions to break the game, insult the DM, knowingly go absolutely mad munhkin...sweet Gygaxian paradigm shifts. There's even mention of Pun-Pun, of all the unholy blasphemous things. Any serious mention of Pun-Pun should be considered a Godwining of the thread, hereby known as Archaelos's Corellary to Godwin's Law. No sane DM would ever even touch that with a 50' extensible pole, so why mention it? Vapidity? Gah. Breaking the game, even by shady "legit" methods won't fix a dang thing. In point of fact, it will just increase the belief on the parts of power trippin' DMs that players are all a bunch of min/maxing power addict members of the lollipop guild who have to be held in check for the sanity fo the game. The question then: do you people making these suggestions play D&D on tabletop? Are your games that confrontational that you hate your DM and/or fellow players? 4) For the original poster: what do you play D&D for? Do you like these guys stories? Do you just play to hang out with friends? Are you into the tactical combat side? Do you want to immerse yourself in fantasy? Any or all of the above? Do you just like rolling dice? Are you into character building and theorycraft (ie optimization)? I think this is the most pertinent unasked question on this thread. Once you have an answer, which you need not post here, go talk to these DM guys. Find out why they play. If you match on any of the above (or match on something I didnt mention) then you can probably find a way to make the game fun for everyone, by focusing more on that aspect. On the other hand, if you find that they like two, and you like a different two and couldn't give a fig about their two...well then. Not only in style (which is what your complaints have focused on) but also in substance, you may deviate to far to find common ground. I suspect, for instance, that you and I would have great difficulty playing in one anothers games. Course, I'm a Bad DM, so is to be expected, I reckon.
Morrowner 11-25-06, 03:51 PM	You're not a bad DM. You DM how it should be. I do think its pretty lousy of you to provide cover for these DMS, though. There is a difference between not having corner shops giving away magic items on one hand and purposefully keeping away the ability to get magic items from proper standard treasure and wealth aquired. There is a difference between not loosely giving away XP and purposefully not rewarding experience points for encounters that the rules and popular opinion say merit some form of XP. There is a difference between running deeply immersive roleplaying game with slower advancement and only going up one bloody level after 24 multi hour sessions. Stop giving cover to lousy gamesmanship, its making my stomach turn.
Sphyre 11-25-06, 05:19 PM	The best solution to your problem is....... Print out this thread and give it to him. lol. That's a pretty big slap in the face :P
Aratex 11-25-06, 06:01 PM	I suspect, for instance, that you and I would have great difficulty playing in one anothers games. Course, I'm a Bad DM, so is to be expected, I reckon. I disagree with this, actually. From what I've read, your style sounds perfectly acceptable to me. Admittedly, it's near impossible to know for sure without sitting at your table, but I haven't read anything from you that's made me think you are either a bad DM or that your tastes and mine would clash. However, before we start lambasting their lack of rules-savvy, I must ask: do you know the exception to that there flanking rule? And how do you know you positively that your flankers did not in any way meet that rules specified exception? I'm not sure how you could unless you're privy to every NPC character sheet, which, well, would just be plain wrong if so. The only exception to the flanking rule that I'm aware of is that you can be flanked by a character of higher level than you who himself has the can't be flanked ability. Assuming that is the only exception to the rule, I can honestly say that the loophole did not apply. I haven't seen their character sheets because they were peons and didn't have character sheets. I am, however, absolutely sure that those guys weren't unflankable, because my party flanked them before the fight was over.
Comus 11-25-06, 06:37 PM	... Course, I'm a Bad DM, so is to be expected, I reckon. You're a moderate, between the extremes of "Monty Haul" and "DM Power Trip". Most DMs are between them, with the bad ones furthest from the middle. Or, at least, that's what I gather based on your post. Seems to me like the biggest problem here is that we've got a myth that, back in the old days, it took years to level up, magic items were as rare as feathers on a trout, and the players were constantly in danger of dying - and everyone liked it. A lot of people do run games like that, but it isn't because they're 'old fashioned'. That is just their style, for good or ill. I'm not going to complain about it, because I occasionally like a game where I have to stay on my feet. I also like playing high-power, high-level games. That said, I'd like to address a few other things. Killing the BBEG when you didn't even *know* it was the BBEG? Not worth full XP by any stretch of the imagination, though I might cut ya a piece out of the kindness of my heart, it won't be a full slice of the pie. Why not give them full XP for the encounter? Even if they don't know he's the boss, he's still a CR X creature, and they should get all the XP for that. Certainly not story awards, of course, but you can see what I mean. If it was a wandering CR X creature, you'd give them the XP, so why not for this? I can't seem to find the page number in the DMG where it says all items must be made for sale at a designated spot in each and every village, per Union Agreement #. Page 137, right side, first paragraph, in the 3.5 DMG (under Community Wealth and Population) states that a community will have anything for sale magical or mundane under its GP limit. There you go. To be honest, though, I never actually noticed it until I went looking. Now, while I think a +1 sword might be a bit much for a lvl 2 party to get, what I do think the DM did wrong here (and you can quote me on this to his ancient and grizzled old timer face) was in rolling in front of you. He ought to have a treasure at least in mind before hand, after all, had their been a +1 sword laying about, why didn't that Paly use it to tan the backsides of your upstart party? I have to agree. The +1 sword is probably a bit much. Masterwork is good enough, and better than they'll probably have, given starting wealth. The only magic items I usually see at this level are potions and scrolls.
Morrowner 11-25-06, 08:26 PM	I'm a by the book guy. Rolled weapons that would help a foe would be used. Saying oopsie daisy, you can't have the treasure you deserve, not yours is just baloney. There seems to be a continous flaunting of DM power and the DM is just breaking the rules so he can "win". Its antagonistic but not in a fun, legal fashion and I don't think the group is down with it. At least one member is very frustrated by it.
DocBeard 11-25-06, 11:30 PM	Bottom line: if you're not having fun, you're not having fun, and remaining part of a game that you aren't enjoying isn't doing you *or* your friends any favors. It's a game, not an obligation. Doesn't even matter who's right or who's wrong; if your differences over D&D styles are irreconcilable, you'll all be better off if you can find something else to do that you'll *all* enjoy. That's a pretty extreme step, though. I definitely think that giving a shot at DMing yourself iis the thing to do. So that both your two DMs *and* your other friends who are playing (and who, as I recall, are similarly frustrated with the situation) can get a taste of a different style. Don't think of it as 'showing them the error of their ways', necessarily; just show them the sort of game you'd like to be playing, see if it's something they'd enjoy too. You want them to have fun too, after all, or you're just right back where you started. As for questions of realism in D&D rules, the analogy that often occurs to me is this: it's not realistic that a knight in the game of chess can only move in an L-shape. They're on horseback, surely they can go wherever they want! And why don't all the pawns on both sides get together and kick out all the royalty? (Which would be the most awesome game of chess ever, but I digress.) But chess isn't about realism, it's about seeing what you can do within some fairly specific parameters. And D&D combat has a lot more in common with chess than it does with anything even remotely realistic. As for 'low-magic', if that's what your DMs (or you, or anyone else in this thread) want to play, good for them (or you, or anyone else, etc.). There are plenty of systems out there that are designed around the concept of magic being rare and scary and not necessarily something you'll be loaded down with. D&D 3.5 isn't one of those systems, though. It's clearly, *clearly* designed so that characters of a certain level (and that level is not 2, admittedly) essentially need a substantial amount of magical gear, access to spells, etc. to survive appropriate challenges for their level. No, your level 2 party should probably not have much in the way of magical gear. Your level 10 party should have a fair amount, though. Does this mean that +5 swords of powergaming should be available on every street corner? Absolutely not. Does this mean that you should be able to lay hands on every single magic item you want, even if you have the appropriate amount of gold for it? Not unless you can craft the things yourself, no (and even then, it is well within the DM's purview to say 'no thanks' to that Greatsword of Truestriking, or whatever.) But should there be *some* vehicle for appropriately equipping your characters in the game (whether that vehicle is the corpses of your enemies, or one of those funny little curiousity shops that's never in the same place twice, where ever item has a story and a secret behind it, or a friendly wizard/blacksmith who's willing to make nice toys for you if you'll do him a few favors in return, or, ideally, all three and more besides)? Absolutely. As for the self-proclaimed Bad DM? You don't sound that bad, no. You sound like you could stand to lose a little bit of attitude, but that's arguably true of everyone on the internet, Yours Truly included.
Evalis 11-26-06, 02:59 PM	For example, one of our campaigns, our party level is 9, and every character is still wearing their starting equipment armor, and only one character has a magic weapon. HAHAAHAHAHHAAHHAAHAH RHahahahahahhahahahah!!!! Wharhaaaarrrhaarrrhahhhaaaaa! Whew.. Haha.. Okay anyway, that's just plain stupidity. Even in a low magic campaign. You are having character deaths for any mix of the following problems: 1) The Monster Manuals and DMG assumes that the characters will have wealth according to their character level. It even indicates that in low wealth/magic worlds, or other special restrictions, the CRs should be increased appropriately. 2) The Monster Manuals and DMG list CR to be appropriate to consume 20% of resources of a group of 4-5 adventurers, and a CR+2 to consume 80%. Unlike in 2nd edition where it lists levels. Most probably these DMs think that CR = level. Which it does not. 3) The GMs think you are playing Chtulu. Tell them to pick up a copy. If you were to ask the DMs the following: What rules have been altered to the game that are different than in the PHB, they will probably tell you verbatim: "We'll let you know when something comes up". When you proceed to argue that you need to know this for character creation reasons, they will accuse you of being a munchkin, and you should just make the character as he/she would really act like in that world. You then explain to them that this is impossible, because if picking up the improved trip feat allowed the user to go cow-tipping he/she would never have chosen it as a combat ability! To which they will response "No the improved trip feat does what it says it does" .. and then change it later when you start tripping everyone (Damn that's overpowered!). In all fairness, GMing is hard work, and having your 10 hour planned out story arc ruined by some spell or special ability is admittedly worthy of some sympathy. But altering the rules at whim, and downpowering the players to purposely prevent this from ever happening, rather than reviewing the spells and rules that are already in place to create situations to limit this from happening, is just plain laziness. No that doesn't mean all cities and dungeons should be rife with magical items, spell services, and whimsical creatures - That is all dependant on the gameworld flavour. What it does mean, is that the GM's you are playing under need to realize that the characters they are abusing in game, are also being controlled by -real people- outside of it. If they plan to make alterations to the rules, they should first and foremost, tell the players what they are, and if they absolutely have to make a change midgame, they should allow some character restructuring to follow suit, or explain that while your spell/ability would have indeed thwarted the evil villians plans.. they are also about to cut down on 10 hours of gaming story that was prepared for this story arc.. The spell thus does not work, and an explanation on why will be provided later - the encounter has otherwise been considered successfully completed. If these two individuals are not willing to treat the players in their game with this sort of courtesy, then, really, seriously.. Leave the game, and start your own. You are under no obligation to stay.
Sphyre 11-26-06, 05:22 PM	HAHAAHAHAHHAAHHAAHAH RHahahahahahhahahahah!!!! Wharhaaaarrrhaarrrhahhhaaaaa! Whew.. Haha.. Okay anyway, that's just plain stupidity. Even in a low magic campaign. You are having character deaths for any mix of the following problems: :D I love reading reasonable rants about unreasonable people. (Probably because I do it too ;)) :clap: :cookie: for you!
pmurray@bigpond.com 11-26-06, 10:33 PM	The OP seems to have mixed up the term "old-fashioned" with "giant douche." To annoy this DM (I know the OP does not want to do that - but whatever :D ) memorise by heart the rules on nonstandard attacks, then specialise in grappling, feinting, bull rush and overrun - whatever. If he whinges, then it's a case of "look, are we playing D&D 3.5 here, or are we just jerking off?"
pmurray@bigpond.com 11-26-06, 10:41 PM	Also, the rules are pretty much considered loose guidelines by them both. I have an issue with that almost every time we play, here are two examples off the top of my head: "Ok, you're flanked so all three of these guys just barely hit you." "I'm a level 8 rogue. I can't be flanked. Since level 6. It says right here." "That's stupid, you're surrounded so you're flanked. Take 18 damage." The correct response to this is "I'm terribly sorry. Are you running a D&D 3.5 game, or are you running a game where ou just make up the rules as you go along?" They, of course, have a perfect right to DM as they wish. But if someone invites me to a football game and it turns out they are playing hockey...
Archangel62 11-27-06, 01:21 AM	The correct response to this is "I'm terribly sorry. Are you running a D&D 3.5 game, or are you running a game where ou just make up the rules as you go along?" They, of course, have a perfect right to DM as they wish. But if someone invites me to a football game and it turns out they are playing hockey... That happened a few times...but then again where I am it snows a lot and fields freeze fast... Anyhow, they aren't old timer DMs, they're first class asshats. I've had to deal with DMs like that in 2nd edition and in other games and each time I tell them the same thing, "If we're here to play a game then give us the rules so we understand the mechanics, if we're here for you to masturbate your pathetic egos then go back to your parents basement and quit wasting my damn time." Mean, maybe, Rude, possibly, but it made its point and it also meant that others were more willing to speak up. A good DM is one who can make the games fun for their players, that's all of it in a nutshell. If a DM is making the game miserable for the majority then they either need to find a new group or change their style. BTW, to the OP, once I get set up on RPG.net I volunteer to try running a game for your group, if for no other reason then to give a standard for comparison.
pita 11-27-06, 02:52 AM	Meh. The true proper response would be "Every time we fight a boss and don't get a magic item, Stephen Lynch/God/Both kills a kitten. Because it's fun." It'll be even better if you buy one of those collectable semi-metal swords. They look real, feel real, but just aren't that sharp. Of course, they're completely illegal but still, if you want your DMs to agree, and nothing offered has worked, a wakizashi is the only way.
Morrowner 11-27-06, 09:22 AM	Level 9 with starting armor and only one magical weapon? Drop this guy like you forgot to wear the oven mitts... HE BLOWS AS A DM. That doesn't mean you can't be friends. Watch movies, play pickup games, talk and chill with him. But 6 months into the game and your rogue is still saving up CP in his piggy bank for the joyous occasion of buying some light mithril armor? Forget that noise.
Khurgan 11-28-06, 09:38 AM	You're not a bad DM. You DM how it should be. I do think its pretty lousy of you to provide cover for these DMS, though. There is a difference between not having corner shops giving away magic items on one hand and purposefully keeping away the ability to get magic items from proper standard treasure and wealth aquired. There is a difference between not loosely giving away XP and purposefully not rewarding experience points for encounters that the rules and popular opinion say merit some form of XP. There is a difference between running deeply immersive roleplaying game with slower advancement and only going up one bloody level after 24 multi hour sessions. Stop giving cover to lousy gamesmanship, its making my stomach turn. I agree entirely - as amusing as the *hey I must be a bad DM too as I don't have Ye Olde Magick Arttes and Craftworks Shoppe in my campaign* posts are, they're excusing the DM portrayed in the opening post who sounds a bad DM (if he's really like that). The main difference with the jokingly-"bad" DMs and the real-bad ones is that the joking bad DMs allow a TPK for the sake of an object lesson to the group and actually help the group change their future tactics and group makeup. Bad DMs just lay it on and let 'em die irrespective of group makeup, tactics, etc... No magic shops? Fair enough - who'd want to go to all that trouble to imbue items with parts of their souls(XP) for profit, huh? I mean NO-ONE would be prepared to sell their souls for cash in the real world, right?!?! Oh...wait... Actually, I prefer a world in which the only items that can be bought are healing potions from large temples/churches, etc... plus the occasional - for in game reasons - scroll or two. That said, it would be naive to think that someone, somewhere in some game world isn't selling what someone else has made. Hell - you can buy babies on the internet nowadays - why shouldn't there be the odd, low-level magic item sold (for incredibly high mark-up) in a major city? I don't approve of it (and in my MERP campaign it just doesn't happen) but the way D&D worlds tend to work (with a full range of magical items) suggests it's possible.
pita 11-28-06, 01:23 PM	I use Rankle, the invention of Rich Burlew, to deal with selling magic items. giantitp.com, go to gaming, you'll find Rankle, dretch merchant, hidden there.
Rauric 11-28-06, 03:36 PM	Tell him that Druids and Priests are more powerful than Warlocks.:P It's true, it's true! On a side note, do most of your players want decent amounts of magic items and do they all want a place to sell such items? What type of game do they want to play in general? What were they expecting? Inform the DMs of these feelings. If he doesn't want to work around your wishes just a bit maybe you guys should run your own campaign. Good luck.
pita 11-29-06, 04:26 AM	People. All solutions have been offered. If the game of life makes you feel like quittin' It helps a lot if you kill a kitten Ahh, the wisdom of Stephen Lynch. That and learning how to use a broadsword (which unfortunately I am not doing because it's "not for my age". Jerks. ;))
DracoPhoenix 11-29-06, 07:57 AM	Right, it looks like all the more notable sensible options have been offered, how about some more off the beaten track ones: First up, have you tried asking to play D&D 3.5? Instead of DMv(PCs) 2.5 :D
pita 11-29-06, 08:51 AM	Ummm... Have you considered stabbing your dms? Sorry, I know I'm being repetitive. I just want another "D&D player kills another D&D player" headline. Because I'm sorta vicious and evil.
Lord_Tirian 11-29-06, 09:17 AM	Tell him that Druids and Priests are more powerful than Warlocks.:P It's true, it's true! QFT. Ask him about damage output per round - i.e. how much damage a warlock does compared to a fighter, to a crossbow, and a full-fledged mage. Ummm... Have you considered stabbing your dms? Or DM on your own. The people here are usually pretty knowledgeable, so with their help you'll get DMing pretty fast, and DM a game, with your DM as a player. Show him that you get the balance (i.e. no horrendous amounts of dead characters), simply by allowing magic items.
Bruunwald 11-29-06, 08:01 PM	Skimming over three pages of replies, I see that there are still a great many people out there who buy into generalizations of older players clinging to one style, and the silly and patently false notion that there is any one "correct" way to play the game. Neither is true. There are plently of controlling, newb DMs around nowadays, full of restrictions and bile, and there were plenty of gigantically generous and crazy DMs all the way back in 1981, willing to give you any old thing you wanted, no matter how it broke the rules. Likewise, the only "correct" way to play D&D is the way that makes you and the rest of the group you are currently with, happy. That's not going to be the same game as the next group.
Rauric 11-29-06, 08:21 PM	Skimming over three pages of replies, I see that there are still a great many people out there who buy into generalizations of older players clinging to one style, and the silly and patently false notion that there is any one "correct" way to play the game. Neither is true. There are plently of controlling, newb DMs around nowadays, full of restrictions and bile, and there were plenty of gigantically generous and crazy DMs all the way back in 1981, willing to give you any old thing you wanted, no matter how it broke the rules. Likewise, the only "correct" way to play D&D is the way that makes you and the rest of the group you are currently with, happy. That's not going to be the same game as the next group. Right on. Ignore a couple of those guys that were treating you (OP) like a youngpunkwhothinksheknowseverything. You know, a couple of posters that were a bit condencending to you. They are putzs.;) I run games that have magic items availible but nothing too crazy. Major, huge cities might have some places that sell and buy magic goods, especially in certain campaign worlds. I like that my players can whoop some butt. I want them to feel good about their PCs. Feeling good is why we play the game. I don't give XP by the book all the time either. I actually give XP for RPIng. If a group made me happy, meaning making the game fun for me to run, they may get extra xp. Ya never know. I like telling a story too in my games when I can. Killing players every session kind of hurts that sort of DMing for me. Have fun guys. If ya want it to be as low magic as Conan or crazy like Final Fantasy, have fun with it. If your tired of the Dms, run a game yourself , ask them to modify their game, or find new DMs. PS:6 months at level one is pretty bad BTW. Maybe they are afraid of their lack of DMing skill at higher levels. Maybe they do have the killer DM thing going.:P
DracoPhoenix 11-30-06, 03:46 AM	PS:6 months at level one is pretty bad BTW. Maybe they are afraid of their lack of DMing skill at higher levels. Maybe they do have the killer DM thing going.:P Nah, it's probably more like the thought the whole leveling system was broken and that only a "real" DM knew how to level the PCs properly. It's just that the PCs haven't done anything that's warrented an XP award yet. :rimshot:
Archangel62 11-30-06, 04:58 AM	Right on. Ignore a couple of those guys that were treating you (OP) like a youngpunkwhothinksheknowseverything. You know, a couple of posters that were a bit condencending to you. They are putzs.;) I run games that have magic items availible but nothing too crazy. Major, huge cities might have some places that sell and buy magic goods, especially in certain campaign worlds. I like that my players can whoop some butt. I want them to feel good about their PCs. Feeling good is why we play the game. I don't give XP by the book all the time either. I actually give XP for RPIng. If a group made me happy, meaning making the game fun for me to run, they may get extra xp. Ya never know. I like telling a story too in my games when I can. Killing players every session kind of hurts that sort of DMing for me. Have fun guys. If ya want it to be as low magic as Conan or crazy like Final Fantasy, have fun with it. If your tired of the Dms, run a game yourself , ask them to modify their game, or find new DMs. PS:6 months at level one is pretty bad BTW. Maybe they are afraid of their lack of DMing skill at higher levels. Maybe they do have the killer DM thing going.:P Henceforth I decree that Rauric hath won this thread! :cheer: :w00t: :king: (And as a side note, could we get a herald emote, it would fit so well on this board)
pita 11-30-06, 08:38 AM	(I just want a smiley that includes a dead kitten. It would be so useful) I decree a new decree: This thread is finished. We are getting repetitive. So Please, I can't find the next page.
Lycanthromancer 11-30-06, 02:25 PM	http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g111/Lycanthromancer/KittenExplodes-1.jpg
Vestigial_Thumb 11-30-06, 03:01 PM	Also, the rules are pretty much considered loose guidelines by them both. I have an issue with that almost every time we play, here are two examples off the top of my head: "Ok, you're flanked so all three of these guys just barely hit you." "I'm a level 8 rogue. I can't be flanked. Since level 6. It says right here." "That's stupid, you're surrounded so you're flanked. Take 18 damage." This is the moment in time where I'd snap and get incredibly violent. I'm impressed that you haven't attacked this mother****er yet.