Post/Author/DateTime	Post
theaceoface 01-29-07, 04:54 PM	Hey everyone, I seem to have run into a bit of a situation: I’m playing a campaign right now where all the player start at level 10 and I decided to take this opportunity to play as a ghost. However, after the last session the DM told be that he felt the ghost template was overpowered (the word ‘broken’ came up quite a few times) and that my character would need to be adjusted. At the time I vehemently disagreed with him, but I’m starting to think he was right. I was hoping to get some of your opinions on two things: A) Do you think the ghost template really is overpower for a +5 level adjustment? B) What suggestions do you think I could make to my DM that would make the ghost a bit more balanced? I realize it’s up to him, but I figured it wouldn’t hurt to give some input. What he was concerned with the most was my character’s ability drain and telekinesis abilities so I thought I’d add a cool down period for the first, wait 1d10 rounds minus my HD before using it again, and make the second equivalent to casting it at my HD.
Cael 01-29-07, 05:04 PM	Hey everyone, I seem to have run into a bit of a situation: I’m playing a campaign right now where all the player start at level 10 and I decided to take this opportunity to play as a ghost. However, after the last session the DM told be that he felt the ghost template was overpowered (the word ‘broken’ came up quite a few times) and that my character would need to be adjusted. At the time I vehemently disagreed with him, but I’m starting to think he was right. I was hoping to get some of your opinions on two things: A) Do you think the ghost template really is overpower for a +5 level adjustment? B) What suggestions do you think I could make to my DM that would make the ghost a bit more balanced? I realize it’s up to him, but I figured it wouldn’t hurt to give some input. What he was concerned with the most was my character’s ability drain and telekinesis abilities so I thought I’d add a cool down period for the first, wait 1d10 rounds minus my HD before using it again, and make the second equivalent to casting it at my HD. Nope. Ghost is nothing for a LA +5. For that LA, I can play a Half-Dragon Feral Mineral Warrior something or other. Your DM is over-reacting or is too new at the job to cope with things, which makes him an idiot for allowing things that he cannot cope with to begin with. Sorry. That is just how I see it.
DarkNick 01-29-07, 05:15 PM	If you are a 10th level character with a LA+5 on top then I would say you were overpowered. This makes you the equivalent of ECL 15. Now if you had a Level 5 character with the template ontop then you should be just about right i.e. ECL 10 like the rest of the party. I personally don't think ability drain at 10th level is such a big deal. (BTW what is it for a ghost? can't remember) A lot of foes don't even last more than 3 or 4 rounds, a little bit of draining is not going to change much. Telekinesis is hardly that powerful...wonder whats bothering the DM about them :confused: What character levels have you taken?
StoneStokes 01-29-07, 05:19 PM	I don't think the LA is a problem. There are plenty of downsides to playing a ghost that perhaps your DM hasn't thought about: Ghosts are attached to particular locations. I list this one first, because if one of my players asked me to be a ghost, this would be the reason I would give to not allow them to do so. In other words, I should have prefaced the statement with "In this particular campaign..." If the DM wants to allow ghosts to wander around, that's his perrogative. As an undead, it is immediately "destroyed" when it reaches 0 hp. Sure, the ghost has Rejuvination, but that just means that it must return to its old haunts (home, cemetary, whatever). [The Player should decide exactly where this is, and this choice should not change once made]. One can permanently get rid of a ghost if one determines the reason for its existence and setting right that which prevents it from resting in peace. [The Player and the DM should together decide why the ghost is sticking around and what needs to be done to set things right. This should be done upon creation of the character.] All of a ghost's equipment is ethereal. Ghosts cannot harm corporeal opponents with mundane (ethereal) weapons. Ghosts can harm corporeal opponents with ethereal magical weapons, but the opponent is afforded the same 50% miss chance for being on different planes of existance. Ghosts can obtain ghost touch weapons that bypass this miss chance. However, The most likely place to find such a weapon is in the hands of a holy crusader against undead, possibly a zealous high level cleric. Unless the weapon is also ethereal, the ghost will need to leave the weapon on the Material Plane when ending the Manifestation ability. All animals, and most people in the world will act with fear and hostility toward the ghost. They will be unable to interact with people in a positive way while in towns and cities. (It is difficult to come up with a good in-story reason why other PCs would associate themselves with a ghost.)
On_the_wings_of_TPK 01-29-07, 05:40 PM	The question is not wheather or not the ghost template is overpowered compared to a half dragon feral whatever. Is my scott swashbuckler over poered? What about my wizard/druid? If I'm driving at 100km/hour (55miles/hour) am I going to fast? The question is, "Is the OPs character too strong when compared to the rest of the group/campaign?" To answaer that I need more details. namely what is the powerlevel of the rest of the group, and how challenging do the encounters seem? What about the rtest of the characters, could they haldle them with out you?
theaceoface 01-29-07, 05:43 PM	If you are a 10th level character with a LA+5 on top then I would say you were overpowered. This makes you the equivalent of ECL 15. Now if you had a Level 5 character with the template ontop then you should be just about right i.e. ECL 10 like the rest of the party. I personally don't think ability drain at 10th level is such a big deal. (BTW what is it for a ghost? can't remember) A lot of foes don't even last more than 3 or 4 rounds, a little bit of draining is not going to change much. Telekinesis is hardly that powerful...wonder whats bothering the DM about them :confused: What character levels have you taken? To answer you question, I’m at ECL 10. The following is the description for my character’s special attack: Draining Touch (Su) A ghost that hits a living target with its incorporeal touch attack drains 1d4 points from any one ability score it selects. On each such successful attack, the ghost heals 5 points of damage to itself. Against ethereal opponents, it adds its Strength modifier to attack rolls only. Against nonethereal opponents, it adds its Dexterity modifier to attack rolls only. Mind you I took a feat from Ghost walk and now its 1d4+2 As for character levels I took Hexblade at first level, then two levels of the prestige class Master of the Unseen Hand and then two levels of the prestige class Ephemeral Exemplar (The DM isn’t counting XP penalties from multiclassing so I decided to go nuts). I agree that the telekinesis really isn’t THAT powerful (I still like it a lot though) and I think it was more just him brainstorming a way for me to be more balanced. :) In the end, I’m glad all of you seem to side with me and I’m going to tell my DM that he can do what he pleases but that I still think my character is perfectly balanced. My DM really is great; I think I just have to show him that there are HUGE disadvantages to being a ghost.
Cael 01-29-07, 05:44 PM	To answer you question, I’m at ECL 10. The following is the description for my character’s special attack: Draining Touch (Su) A ghost that hits a living target with its incorporeal touch attack drains 1d4 points from any one ability score it selects. On each such successful attack, the ghost heals 5 points of damage to itself. Against ethereal opponents, it adds its Strength modifier to attack rolls only. Against nonethereal opponents, it adds its Dexterity modifier to attack rolls only. Mind you I took a feat from Ghost walk and now its 1d4+2 As for character levels I took Hexblade at first level, then two levels of the prestige class Master of the Unseen Hand and then two levels of the prestige class Ephemeral Exemplar (The DM isn’t counting XP penalties from multiclassing so I decided to go nuts). I agree that the telekinesis really isn’t THAT powerful (I still like it a lot though) and I think it was more just him brainstorming a way for me to be more balanced. :) In the end, I’m glad all of you seem to side with me and I’m going to tell my DM that he can do what he pleases but that I still think my character is perfectly balanced. My DM really is great; I think I just have to show him that there are HUGE disadvantages to being a ghost. PrCs do not engender XP penalties...
Some_call_me_Tim 01-29-07, 05:49 PM	A) Do you think the ghost template really is overpower for a +5 level adjustment?Nope, it has significant limitations. You're basically a 5th level creature traveling with 10th-level characters. B) What suggestions do you think I could make to my DM that would make the ghost a bit more balanced?I suspect your DM isn't trying to fight you as a ghost but rather as a normal 10th level character. The big one is even with your +4 turn resistance you are only considered a 9-HD creature for turning or rebuking. If you run across an NPC radiant servant of Pelor you might as well get out a fresh character sheet. Frightful Moan and Horrific Appearance would affect your party as well as the enemy. What exactly does your DM consider broken?
Some_call_me_Tim 01-29-07, 05:58 PM	As for character levels I took Hexblade at first level, then two levels of the prestige class Master of the Unseen Hand and then two levels of the prestige class Ephemeral Exemplar.I don't see how you can qualify for Master of the the Unseen Hand with a single level of Hexblade; you need 8 ranks in concentration, that alone requires a minimum of five levels.
Cold Napalm 01-29-07, 07:54 PM	As for character levels I took Hexblade at first level, then two levels of the prestige class Master of the Unseen Hand and then two levels of the prestige class Ephemeral Exemplar (The DM isn’t counting XP penalties from multiclassing so I decided to go nuts). I agree that the telekinesis really isn’t THAT powerful (I still like it a lot though) and I think it was more just him brainstorming a way for me to be more balanced. What broken isn't the ghost template, it's your build...there is NOWAY you can get those PrC with just 1 level and the ghost template unless the DM has some houserules we don't know about. Generally when you go oh my god that broke, 99% of the time it's because they didn't follow the rules correctly. If he has some wonky houserules to allow those classes then, well thats the DM problem not yours.
theaceoface 01-30-07, 12:42 AM	:embarrass Well isn’t this embarrassing. Thank you all for pointing this out, it’s much appreciated. In the end it was an honest mistake: I looked at my concentration modifier and not my concentration rank (even though I the prestige class clearly said ranks :embarrass ). I’m not entirely new at all this, but I’m by no mean adept at it either. However, I’m not entirely sure that’s the ultimate source of the problem. This being said, a new (and weaker) build combined with what you all have told me about Ghosts should be enough (hopefully) to satisfy my DM.
mkill 01-30-07, 02:01 AM	I think the ghost feels overpowered because a ghost has many abilities that usual characters have not (at least at low-to-mid level). Just the simple ability to move through any physical obstacle allows you to show up where even the super-sneaky rogue can go. Somebody needs to check that underwater cave? Ghost goes in. A trap removes all the air from the room? Ghost is unharmed. The group is poisoned at the kings dinner? Ghost didn't even touch the food. You're also unharmed by anything a normal city watch can throw at you. I think your DM was unprepared for this. When he plans his adventures, he now has to keep a ghosts abilities in mind. You should remind your DM about the limitiations a ghost has, look at StoneStroke's post. I guess he didn't think of these before. As for LA, +5 is as good as any guess. It's hard to weigh the ghosts special abilities such as incorporeality against what 5 more class levels could give you. If the ghost is a problem at LA +5, he'll probably be at +6 or +7 too. If your DM wants to tone down the ghost, he might create an alternative ghost template, which has all the abilities except for the special attacks like Frightful Moan, Horrific Appearance and Draining Touch. These are great for monsters, but they can become a problem in a PC. I'd rate the ghost without these at LA +4, maybe even strong LA +3.
Derren S. 01-30-07, 02:02 AM	People seem to forget that the ghost also has some big advantages. The whole incorporeality thing is a very big advantage. You are immun to many melee attackers and no door etc. does block you. So I can see why your DM says that the ghost is overpowered and I have to agree.
StoneStokes 01-30-07, 02:28 AM	But also remember that if you are using a material ghost touch weapon, it cannot go through the doors with you. I don't really know of an easy way to otherwise upgrade weapons than to have material ghost touch weapons made for you. Therefore, you will either be stuck with your original weapon (that is hopefully +1 or better), or you will not be able to take it with you as you pass through walls. Cheers, StoneStokes
tiluvias99 01-30-07, 02:24 PM	But also remember that if you are using a material ghost touch weapon, it cannot go through the doors with you. I don't really know of an easy way to otherwise upgrade weapons than to have material ghost touch weapons made for you. Therefore, you will either be stuck with your original weapon (that is hopefully +1 or better), or you will not be able to take it with you as you pass through walls.Untrue. An incorporeal creature wielding a ghost touch weapon can choose to have the weapon become incoproeal too.Ghost Touch A ghost touch weapon deals damage normally against incorporeal creatures, regardless of its bonus. (An incorporeal creature’s 50% chance to avoid damage does not apply to attacks with ghost touch weapons.) The weapon can be picked up and moved by an incorporeal creature at any time. A manifesting ghost can wield the weapon against corporeal foes. Essentially, a ghost touch weapon counts as either corporeal or incorporeal at any given time, whichever is more beneficial to the wielder.
StoneStokes 01-30-07, 05:21 PM	...well...dog my cats! :)
danielinthewolvesden 01-31-07, 02:42 AM	As is true with most high LA races, most encounters that will be a challenge for a normal party are either a complete walk-over for you, or you stand no chance at all. The Vampire is the perfect example of this. It's a lot of extra work for the DM to come up with encounters tha challenge you and the rest of the (mortal) party.
MareltEkiran 01-31-07, 02:53 AM	While the ghost is not necesarrily all that bad in terms of raw power on paper, they can turn into organizational nightmares for the DM. First of all, a ghost is always only a move action away from nearly complete safety (namely... move into the floor). A ghost with spring attack and draining touch becomes a nightmare. And as was said, a ghost can bypass any obstacle that a DM may set for them an unlimited amount of times per day (unless you make everything shielded by Walls of Force, but that's hard to justify). The telekinesis is not all that powerful as an attack, but it does mean that a ghost can do nearly everything that a normal creature can, except without any danger or obstruction barring its way. And even if you get cornered, you can just go ethereal and be completely immume to anything that tries to get you.
theaceoface 02-01-07, 12:06 AM	I guess I see the other side of the argument now. My DM would have to make a significant effort to work a story around my character’s abilities, and make sure that they don’t constantly thwart his plans. Still, like many have pointed out, a ghost has plenty of disadvantages, and if (and that’s a big “if”) my DM is willing to make that effort he could probably work out story that “works” (though, admittedly, with less leeway). I’m not entirely sure what the solution is to this. A ghost just has the ability to walk through wall, is just immune to fire, etcetera. A ghost that wasn’t incorporeal really wouldn’t be a ghost. Sure ability drain is a ***** of an attack, but it’s not like its’s at issue here. I guess if my character lost the ability to use telekinesis he couldn’t do things like fly into an underwater cavern and drag something out, he could only scout ahead. So that might help. Still, in the end, the only real solution I can think of is either A) starting a new character or B) my Dm working around my abilities. Unless, I become a corporeal Ghost.
danielinthewolvesden 02-01-07, 09:04 PM	There's a "Deathless" template and Risen Martyr PrC in BoED. There's also the Necropolitain in Libris Mortis.
Beware of Kobold 02-01-07, 09:23 PM	the absolute biggest thing that people don't realize when they make a ghost is that you don't get EVERY special ability listed, you only get one to three of them: Special Attacks A ghost retains all the special attacks of the base creature, although those relying on physical contact do not affect nonethereal creatures. The ghost also gains a manifestation ability plus one to three other special attacks as described below. The save DC against a special attack is equal to 10 + ½ ghost’s HD + ghost’s Cha modifier unless otherwise noted. you might not have noticed this, and given your ghost all of the special abilities listed which could cause your ghost to be very overpowered for a +5 LA
Some_call_me_Tim 02-02-07, 10:48 AM	the absolute biggest thing that people don't realize when they make a ghost is that you don't get EVERY special ability listed, you only get one to three of them:Thanks, I've never noticed, don't use ghosts, especially as PCs but nice to know. :cookie: for you. I guess the big decision would be how many a PC should get and whether you could treat them as feats and take an additional one instead of a feat perhaps.
Radijs 02-02-07, 11:38 AM	Playing a ghost? I'd take the malevolance ability. Just nip into somebody's body and get in the drivers seat.
Potato Weasel 02-02-07, 12:57 PM	Well, a big part is that you rule out a large number of monsters when your dm ing for a ghost character. animals, no chance beasts, maybe a few abberations, mainly ones with magic, and even then your dealing with fort saves, corporeal instability, poisons, death effects... undead- not gonna work giants- tend not to get the trees they uproot all magicked up, ditto for their boulders in fact, how bout we just leave it there, and let you think of what things -are- effective against a ghost, -without- picking up a ghost touch weapon, just for you?
Beware of Kobold 02-02-07, 01:16 PM	in fact, how bout we just leave it there, and let you think of what things -are- effective against a ghost, -without- picking up a ghost touch weapon, just for you? holy water and clerics are both pretty common things that a ghost should fear
Radijs 02-02-07, 02:20 PM	Clerics, evil ones are going to extremely dangerous to this PC. He has 5 HD, that means a 10th level cleric won't just rebuke him, no he will COMMAND him. Thats permanent control, no save no chance of escape once the cleric gives the order "To serve me as my faithful servant until the end of time."
Beware of Kobold 02-02-07, 02:43 PM	Clerics, evil ones are going to extremely dangerous to this PC. He has 5 HD, that means a 10th level cleric won't just rebuke him, no he will COMMAND him. Thats permanent control, no save no chance of escape once the cleric gives the order "To serve me as my faithful servant until the end of time." well actually since ghosts have turn resistance he is treated as having more hit dice than he really has when a cleric tries to turn him, so a cleric would have to be 18th level to take control of him. But still being turned by a cleric sucks because its pretty easy to do, there's no save and lasts 10 rounds
Cromag 02-02-07, 03:22 PM	If you want an incoporeal character and he doesn't want you playing a ghost you could always play a psionic uncarnate, nice PRc that give incorporeality and has decent psionics as well.
Senopa 02-02-07, 09:14 PM	tell your dm off, he needs to be more flex able, and besides, you arn't overpowerd, compared to what I hace to deal with, you don't know the definition of overpowered
theaceoface 02-02-07, 10:40 PM	Firstly, I did realize that I could only take 1-3 powers and I chose Malevolence, Draining Touch and Telekinesis for my character. If the issue was finding monsters that would be effective against my character, then it really wouldn’t be a problem. While turning isn’t that big a problem for my character (I took the feat “Improved Turn Resistance”, plus a single level in Ephemeral Exemplar), generally anyone with magic is effective. Sure the magic fails 50% of the time, but that doesn’t mean they can’t do damage. Plus positive energy and force spells never fail, making spellcasters quite the foe. Granted animals, beasts, and regular Joes aren’t threatening but that Retriever almost killed my character... Of course the issue might not be so much finding the right monsters but weaving the story. It’s totally my DMs choice on that level. I’m sure it’s doable; it’s just, as one of you put it, an “organizational nightmare”.
FeceMan 02-03-07, 12:31 AM	Explain to your DM that you have the HP, saves, BAB, skills, and class features of a fifth-level character. (Your HP might be worse.) Supposing you were one of the following classes... The rogue has an extra 40 + (5*INT mod) skillpoints, improved uncanny dodge, and 3d6 more sneak attack. The fighter has an extra 28 + (5*CON mod) HP and three more feats. The spellcasters have fifth-level spells.
Radijs 02-03-07, 07:17 AM	well actually since ghosts have turn resistance he is treated as having more hit dice than he really has when a cleric tries to turn him, so a cleric would have to be 18th level to take control of him. But still being turned by a cleric sucks because its pretty easy to do, there's no save and lasts 10 rounds Actually commanding undead has a permanent duration IIRC.
Taureus_Drakken 02-03-07, 07:09 PM	He meant being turned...as in what a good cleric does to undead.