Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Delfedd 03-02-08, 03:36 PM	I'm normally a DM, and that might have something to do with this. I'm currently running one and playing in another campaign right now. I recently joined the second campaign, and am playing a rogue lizardfolk with the personality of Steve Irwin. I really enjoy this character an think he's very fun. However, the DM is railroady. Like. To a large degree. He has picked a favorite character and has given him a lot of things, mostly plot things but occasionally mechanical benefits. When I say "plot things" I mean the NPCs will listen to him more than anyone else and will grant him boons and suchlike. They're pretty good friends outside the game, and so this player knows a lot about the blackguard who's obviously going to turn out to be the BBEG. Recently, we where forced to explore a dungeon. I say forced because the King who can teleport can't clear out a dungeon filled with 6th level monsters. And by dungeon I mean 4 rooms with 3 monsters only connected because they're in the fiend folio (We fought, I believe, a Malephant, a giant sloth, and jackal lord in that order). In the last room was a gate, which had 2 orcs come out of. After that, eight other guys came through the gate. Then he told us "Do you want to skip the fight and just go to what's supposed to happen?" and I asked what was supposed to happen, and he told me "You're supposed to get captured." Now That Cheesed me right off. So I said "Well I'll run away." The DM drew a lot more marks at the only entrance to the room. "Well I use my tanglefoot Bag." "Dude, there's as many as I need there to be." What made me even angrier was the fact that I searched for traps and secret doors in that very hallway. So we where clapped in irons (no, I can't use my eight ranks in escape artist) and dragged through the portal where we see the blackguard. I mentioned him before. We knew he was a blackguard because he "looked like one." We had a long and boring fight where he didn't do much but stand there looking like an idiot and was obviously going to "Miraculously" escape. By miraculously, I mean basically every NPC in this world has Teleport at will. Now the blackguard has taken our equipment and put it in a bag of holding. Fortunately, The we haven't used the random teleport scrolls that the DM gave them to save three days time. For some reason. I'm thinking that once we escape (which I'm sure will happen soon enough) Instead of traveling around there like idiots, I plan on stealing back the scrolls. Not specifically looking for the scrolls, but asking "is all the equipment here?" Basically, I'm having fun with my character (because he had an amulet of gender changing, I made the claim that lizardfolk had the ability to change their gender at will, and from there just messed with the only female in the party). Once he's safely deposited in the jail, I'm going to cement his position as "weirdest Character ever" by having him vomit up a bag filled with lockpicks and a pair of knives.
Chrono Nexus 03-02-08, 03:45 PM	Bah. This DM sounds like he doesn't know what he's doing. Or maybe he does, and doesn't care. What comes after a capture in a railroader's game? A. A powerful NPC miraculously saves you. B. You die with no save. If this guy wants to keep DMing, bet that he'll be doing option A. When the NPC inevitably appears, allow him to save you. Don't even bother resisting. Just kind of stand there. When the DM asks you what you want to do, tell him that your character will just stand there. Your DM will either wise up and give some slack in the reins, or the game will turn into a long boring monologue of cheesy cliches. At that point, you have nothing to lose by walking out.
Grak182 03-02-08, 04:25 PM	I know your pain. We just started an adventure a few recent friends, mostly newbies, so I was excited to see what we could do as a group, kinda show them what D&D can be all about. Our first adventure involved us fending off Waterdeep from attack, while a BBEG stole a super magic staff and made off with it. In the meantime, we got infected with some weird debilitating slime. Crap. We were immidiately Quested to go and retrieve it. So we can't choose not to do any of this now. Our adventures since then have involved us trying to keep up with these big bads who are easily more powerful than us, (Some of our party can't even help that much, we're low level and everything has DR, SR, etc.) and trying to retrieve the Super Scepter or whatever. RP has been at a bare minimum in between the massive combats where we fight for our lives. He has a favored PC, and some favorite targets as well. I'm just kinda waiting for the big NPC to show up and save the day.
SillyRobot 03-02-08, 04:26 PM	I'm normally a DM, and that might have something to do with this. I'm currently running one and playing in another campaign right now. I recently joined the second campaign, and am playing a rogue lizardfolk with the personality of Steve Irwin. I really enjoy this character an think he's very fun. However, the DM is railroady. Like. To a large degree. He has picked a favorite character and has given him a lot of things, mostly plot things but occasionally mechanical benefits. When I say "plot things" I mean the NPCs will listen to him more than anyone else and will grant him boons and suchlike. They're pretty good friends outside the game, and so this player knows a lot about the blackguard who's obviously going to turn out to be the BBEG. Recently, we where forced to explore a dungeon. I say forced because the King who can teleport can't clear out a dungeon filled with 6th level monsters. And by dungeon I mean 4 rooms with 3 monsters only connected because they're in the fiend folio (We fought, I believe, a Malephant, a giant sloth, and jackal lord in that order). In the last room was a gate, which had 2 orcs come out of. After that, eight other guys came through the gate. Then he told us "Do you want to skip the fight and just go to what's supposed to happen?" and I asked what was supposed to happen, and he told me "You're supposed to get captured." Now That Cheesed me right off. So I said "Well I'll run away." The DM drew a lot more marks at the only entrance to the room. "Well I use my tanglefoot Bag." "Dude, there's as many as I need there to be." What made me even angrier was the fact that I searched for traps and secret doors in that very hallway. So we where clapped in irons (no, I can't use my eight ranks in escape artist) and dragged through the portal where we see the blackguard. I mentioned him before. We knew he was a blackguard because he "looked like one." We had a long and boring fight where he didn't do much but stand there looking like an idiot and was obviously going to "Miraculously" escape. By miraculously, I mean basically every NPC in this world has Teleport at will. Now the blackguard has taken our equipment and put it in a bag of holding. Fortunately, The we haven't used the random teleport scrolls that the DM gave them to save three days time. For some reason. I'm thinking that once we escape (which I'm sure will happen soon enough) Instead of traveling around there like idiots, I plan on stealing back the scrolls. Not specifically looking for the scrolls, but asking "is all the equipment here?" Basically, I'm having fun with my character (because he had an amulet of gender changing, I made the claim that lizardfolk had the ability to change their gender at will, and from there just messed with the only female in the party). Once he's safely deposited in the jail, I'm going to cement his position as "weirdest Character ever" by having him vomit up a bag filled with lockpicks and a pair of knives. Gently suggest to the DM you wouldn't mind reading the story after he's finished writing it, but you don't feel there is a reason to continue to try to interfere with his creation by attempting to roleplay the adventure while playing the game. Then leave.
I_roll_ones 03-02-08, 04:59 PM	Talk to this DM, and possibly other players other then the favored one. Tell him that you think he is being unfair with loot, and that he is railroading you, since you cannot changed the course of events. I think blunt, short and simple is your best bet. If he doesn't get it, leave and show him how to DM fairly and without railroading in your campaign.
Etarnon 03-02-08, 11:10 PM	Oh yeah, just quit.
silvergamgee 03-02-08, 11:26 PM	Talk to your DM and tell him that you would prefer to play a character in a game, not a puppet. If he points out that you can do whatever you want, cite your example above. If he refuses, well... It's a common misperception that the DM has the power in a game. The player always has the ultimate power. You absolutely can walk away from any game, even if it is a group of friends. Just don't lie about why you are choosing to go play somewhere else, being honest (but not harsh) about it is the key to avoiding hurt feelings. Maybe then reality will set in to the DM. He can design and control every aspect of the game world, but he cannot control players.
Axiomatic_vampire 03-03-08, 12:40 AM	Reading that makes me significantly less guilty about the nudges I've been giving my players lately. "there are as many as I need there to be" is just indefensible.
Jutter 03-03-08, 03:35 AM	One Devil's Advocate coming up ;) Maybe the DM is just inexperienced? All of us learned how to do it a long time ago, but keep in mind it's a hard job. It's difficult to create a consistant world with interesting NPC's, keep track of all the rules, and provide your players with the possibility to create an epic story. DM-ing is learned one step at a time, and most people start with the combat rules. If he's new, see if you can help him out a little. Talk to him one-on-one. Don't flood him with complaints, but take baby-steps. I suggest addressing in-game freedom of choice first. If you don't want to invest your time, or if this concerns an experienced DM who should know better, walk away. No D&D is better than bad D&D.
RobbyPants 03-03-08, 03:21 PM	Then he told us "Do you want to skip the fight and just go to what's supposed to happen?" and I asked what was supposed to happen, and he told me "You're supposed to get captured." When he asks you something like this, respond with: "Do you want my input, or do you just want to run the entire game yourself?" Reaslistically, that's what it boils down to. If everything's predetermined, he has little reason for you to be there. Tell him to write his little story, and when it's finished, you can all sit in a circle and let him read it to you. Same ends, different means.
mythandra 03-03-08, 09:46 PM	I wouldn't play in any game where the DM tried to railroad me like that. Your DM isn't running a game that everyone can enjoy. Your DM is running a game that he alone enjoys. At best, he's being selfish. At worst, he's power tripping. Either way, I can't see how anyone would enjoy playing in a game where nothing makes sense and the rules change arbitrarily and without warning. A proper game is not played against the DM. A proper game is played with the DM. It's cooperative. If your DM is your adversary and you're trying to outwit him in out-of-character ways, there's something wrong. My suggestion is to step away from the table and not come back until your DM has improved his maturity level past "infantile".
Jo_Pistachio 03-03-08, 11:12 PM	"You'll never take me alive!" Are appropriate necklace of fireball last words.
happy_fuzzy 03-03-08, 11:29 PM	Turn the railroad tracks into a nuclear hammergun (or is it folding chair? i forget) weapon, get off the tracks and point at DM's head
Cravin 03-04-08, 03:10 AM	Gently suggest to the DM you wouldn't mind reading the story after he's finished writing it, but you don't feel there is a reason to continue to try to interfere with his creation by attempting to roleplay the adventure while playing the game. Then leave. You are my hero for this post.
Khadmus 03-04-08, 06:12 PM	Somebody once made an interesting suggestion for dealing with railroading. Have your character just stand there and do nothing. The DM might see what (s)he is doing wrong.
Kursk 03-04-08, 06:49 PM	Find someone who is really a DM.
yossarius 03-04-08, 07:01 PM	It is apparent from your description that this guy doesn't want players, just an audience. You are there to marvel at his brilliance. The way I see it, you have three options: 1) Leave. 2) Try to reason with him. 3) Annoy the p*ss out of him. If it were me, I'd go with option 3. Wait. I've been in this situation. I did go for option 3. Having you character stand there and do nothing won't faze this guy; he'll just ignore you right back. Instead, make him kill your character. Over and over again. Attack the obvious plot-hook NPC. Refuse to search for traps, but tell the party you did. Heal your enemies in the middle of combat. Never take prisoners. Run a character with a vow of non-violence. Steal from your party members, then implicate other members. Insist your character is drunk throughout the adventure. When the rest of the group finally confronts you with this disruptive behavior, just say: "I didn't think my contribution made a difference. It hasn't yet." When they tell you not to come back, just remember, it was a crummy game to begin with.
Whisper_Swiftblade 03-04-08, 07:11 PM	i was just speaking with a freind who will be DMing a campane soon about what kind of PC I would like to play, and I think we are in the same boat. (now to paraphrase the conversation) Me: I know, I could finally get a chance to play Calc (this was the name of a CE rogue I played in a three hour game, and never realy got to do much with) DM) You could, but he can't be evil anymore. Me: Why not? From what you have told me, alignment seems fairly irrelevent to your plans (which to quote him begin as "you start outside the cathedral and are ordered to take out the cult" (the question of why or how we are there is met with) "because you just are".) DM: Last time you played him you tried to light a tavern on fire. Me: Right, that is a pretty standerd CE thing to do when you hate the tavern's owner. DM: Yeh but in my campain, you would get thorwn into prison for even trying something like that, and then the party would be down a member, and be doomed if they needed you. Me: that is what skills like hide, and move silently are for, I don't exactly plan to get caught, if I have him do anything illeagle. DM: I would make sure you are caught. Me: so I would just instantly be tossed into jail with zero chance of excape. DM: yep. Me: why, how? DM: Because I don't want evil. Me: So you don't want evil because I would be thrown into jail for being evil, because you want to disscurage playing evil charicters. DM: That about sums it up. Me: you know that is circular logic right? DM: yep. Me: (I sigh) how about CN. DM: That is fine just as long as you don't do anything irrational, or illeagel. Me: so you are saying I can play CN as long as I am not chaotic, I thought we call that neutral. DM: no you just can't do anything extreamly chaotic. Me: so what would be an example of something chaotic I could do? DM: I don't realy want to say, because then you might have your charicter do stuff like that. Me: {inside monolog} sorry calc, but I would rather not play you at all, then play a nutered imposter.
pedro2112 03-05-08, 12:25 AM	"Irrational" and "Illegal" don't necessarily equate with "Chaotic"
I_roll_ones 03-05-08, 12:54 AM	"Irrational" is Chaotic or Lawful Stupid. Chaotic is not mentally impaired. It is not stupid. It simply doesn't deal with tradition, honor or have a personal set of laws. They often try to break the codes and order of others. But the PHB never mentions idiocy as a chaotic action. Also, asking for an evil-free party for DMing is pretty standard, as it can mess up plots, be utterly difficult, or simply not work with the rest of the party. It also sounds like he might have done it since evil(And chaotic), for you, is being unsubtle and pretty silly. Why light an inn on fire and attempt to sneak past hundreds of people, rather then formulate a plan to get what you done more efficiently? The opposite of Chaotic Evil is not Efficient Good.
RobbyPants 03-05-08, 08:37 AM	Somebody once made an interesting suggestion for dealing with railroading. Have your character just stand there and do nothing. The DM might see what (s)he is doing wrong. That's really interesting. I could see it either working very well. I could also see the DM just getting mad, missing the point, and killing the character. Either way, it might be more satisfying than simply going along with it.
Wargamer 03-05-08, 08:39 AM	Sorry, but that one is definately a Chaotic Stupid Rogue, not a Chaotic Evil. Chaotic Evil is when, during an "Evil" Campaign, the party had to sneak into a keep situated in the heart of a village. Assuming I had sufficient skill to set up a primitive timer fuse, I would place it in the storehouse of the local pub surrounded by strong liquor and flour (because it explodes), and then with faultless timing proceed to stroll right up to the castle gates just as a fireball takes out the bar. Naturally, everyone goes running toward it, leaving the party to quietly slink in during the commotion... That is Chaotic Evil. It was a distraction (unalligned) that probably killed a lot of people (Evil). It wasn't done "because he ****** me off". It was done because who the hell ignores an exploding building?
Whisper_Swiftblade 03-05-08, 02:45 PM	"Irrational" is Chaotic or Lawful Stupid. Chaotic is not mentally impaired. It is not stupid. It simply doesn't deal with tradition, honor or have a personal set of laws. They often try to break the codes and order of others. But the PHB never mentions idiocy as a chaotic action. Also, asking for an evil-free party for DMing is pretty standard, as it can mess up plots, be utterly difficult, or simply not work with the rest of the party. It also sounds like he might have done it since evil(And chaotic), for you, is being unsubtle and pretty silly. I understand that chaotic is not stupid, that is why I asked for an example of something I could do (which was met with "I won't, because I don't want you to do it.), as for evil not being suitable, I could deal with that, what I don't like is the instant inexcapable prison drawback, which would not extend to our foes (which I might add are A secret highly organised band of genosidic maniacs, that for some reason are considered true nutral, that we are aware of and fighting "just because".) To me the drawback reads a little like "if you play a caster other casters can counter your spells per, but you can't retern the favor."
Whisper_Swiftblade 03-05-08, 02:55 PM	Sorry, but that one is definately a Chaotic Stupid Rogue, not a Chaotic Evil. Chaotic Evil is when, during an "Evil" Campaign, the party had to sneak into a keep situated in the heart of a village. Assuming I had sufficient skill to set up a primitive timer fuse, I would place it in the storehouse of the local pub surrounded by strong liquor and flour (because it explodes), and then with faultless timing proceed to stroll right up to the castle gates just as a fireball takes out the bar. Naturally, everyone goes running toward it, leaving the party to quietly slink in during the commotion... That is Chaotic Evil. It was a distraction (unalligned) that probably killed a lot of people (Evil). It wasn't done "because he ****** me off". It was done because who the hell ignores an exploding building? I am sorry but I dissagree, the tavern's owner put a hit on my rogue's family, which led to their deaths, the owner was inside, and I was well aware my rogue could not take him in a fair fight, and there was no way to contact the others, save running to find them, during which time he could leave. Burning the place down to take out your worst foe might not be the most maticulously planed attack immaginable, but I would not call it "chaotic stupid"
weepingminotaur 03-06-08, 04:21 PM	Wow, this campaign sounds brutal. That's not D&D, that's a DM turning his players into puppets. I don't even understand how he can enjoy doing that. As a DM, I get a lot of satisfaction when my players explore the full range of options at their disposal, because it immerses them in the game and doesn't break the 'fourth wall' ("let's go this way because the DM clearly wants us to", etc.). I'd feel embarrassed to say something like, "Do you want to skip straight to what happens after the fight?" Pathetic.
sakuradm 03-06-08, 04:37 PM	NOW THIS IS JUST INTERRESTING MR. OP! 1- Sounds pretty funny 2- Thanks, now I have a cool new item to add to the campaigns I run. 3- I'd have to say all of us DM's have a favorite player, we just shouldn't show it. I admire my boyfriend for obvious reasons.. :P 4- You need to call me up sometime so I can come to hear about the vomiting up a bag of lockpicks and knives part xD HAPPY ADVENTURING!
Captain_Madrick 03-06-08, 04:52 PM	This DM is obviously not very well trained in the art of railroading. When a DM needs to railroad (which should be very rarely) it needs to not feel like railroading, and be planned. Sometimes the story needs to be forwarded in a certain way, and railroading is important for the sake of the storyline. The DM should have done it in a different way, but him not doing it in a different way makes it just seem like A) He is inexperienced or B) He doesn't care about telling the story, just getting the story done He just needs to plan a proper capture. A king will rarely send 50 soldiers for a band of adventurers, but they will send men with rods of cancellation to threaten their items, or perhaps some cubes of force to trap them. The players should have every oppertunity to escape, and if something would work, let it work! But a DM, with his unlimited resources, can usually plan against any escape attempt really well. It's more believable when all avenues are planned against, not just overwhelming odds over and over. I get past the 10 guys, there's 10 more...that's dumb.
navar100 03-06-08, 05:04 PM	i was just speaking with a freind who will be DMing a campane soon about what kind of PC I would like to play, and I think we are in the same boat. (now to paraphrase the conversation) Me: I know, I could finally get a chance to play Calc (this was the name of a CE rogue I played in a three hour game, and never realy got to do much with) DM) You could, but he can't be evil anymore. Me: Why not? From what you have told me, alignment seems fairly irrelevent to your plans (which to quote him begin as "you start outside the cathedral and are ordered to take out the cult" (the question of why or how we are there is met with) "because you just are".) DM: Last time you played him you tried to light a tavern on fire. Me: Right, that is a pretty standerd CE thing to do when you hate the tavern's owner. DM: Yeh but in my campain, you would get thorwn into prison for even trying something like that, and then the party would be down a member, and be doomed if they needed you. Me: that is what skills like hide, and move silently are for, I don't exactly plan to get caught, if I have him do anything illeagle. DM: I would make sure you are caught. Me: so I would just instantly be tossed into jail with zero chance of excape. DM: yep. Me: why, how? DM: Because I don't want evil. Me: So you don't want evil because I would be thrown into jail for being evil, because you want to disscurage playing evil charicters. DM: That about sums it up. Me: you know that is circular logic right? DM: yep. Me: (I sigh) how about CN. DM: That is fine just as long as you don't do anything irrational, or illeagel. Me: so you are saying I can play CN as long as I am not chaotic, I thought we call that neutral. DM: no you just can't do anything extreamly chaotic. Me: so what would be an example of something chaotic I could do? DM: I don't realy want to say, because then you might have your charicter do stuff like that. Me: {inside monolog} sorry calc, but I would rather not play you at all, then play a nutered imposter. A DM who doesn't want Evil player characters or Chaotic Neutral characters using the excuse they're Chaotic Neutral to do evil things is not a DM who is railroading but rather a sane DM wanting to prevent a player from ruining the game.
kelvinaw273 03-07-08, 09:27 AM	I'm normally a DM, and that might have something to do with this. I'm currently running one and playing in another campaign right now. I recently joined the second campaign, and am playing a rogue lizardfolk with the personality of Steve Irwin. I really enjoy this character an think he's very fun. However, the DM is railroady. Like. To a large degree. He has picked a favorite character and has given him a lot of things, mostly plot things but occasionally mechanical benefits. When I say "plot things" I mean the NPCs will listen to him more than anyone else and will grant him boons and suchlike. They're pretty good friends outside the game, and so this player knows a lot about the blackguard who's obviously going to turn out to be the BBEG. Recently, we where forced to explore a dungeon. I say forced because the King who can teleport can't clear out a dungeon filled with 6th level monsters. And by dungeon I mean 4 rooms with 3 monsters only connected because they're in the fiend folio (We fought, I believe, a Malephant, a giant sloth, and jackal lord in that order). In the last room was a gate, which had 2 orcs come out of. After that, eight other guys came through the gate. Then he told us "Do you want to skip the fight and just go to what's supposed to happen?" and I asked what was supposed to happen, and he told me "You're supposed to get captured." Now That Cheesed me right off. So I said "Well I'll run away." The DM drew a lot more marks at the only entrance to the room. "Well I use my tanglefoot Bag." "Dude, there's as many as I need there to be." What made me even angrier was the fact that I searched for traps and secret doors in that very hallway. So we where clapped in irons (no, I can't use my eight ranks in escape artist) and dragged through the portal where we see the blackguard. I mentioned him before. We knew he was a blackguard because he "looked like one." We had a long and boring fight where he didn't do much but stand there looking like an idiot and was obviously going to "Miraculously" escape. By miraculously, I mean basically every NPC in this world has Teleport at will. Now the blackguard has taken our equipment and put it in a bag of holding. Fortunately, The we haven't used the random teleport scrolls that the DM gave them to save three days time. For some reason. I'm thinking that once we escape (which I'm sure will happen soon enough) Instead of traveling around there like idiots, I plan on stealing back the scrolls. Not specifically looking for the scrolls, but asking "is all the equipment here?" Basically, I'm having fun with my character (because he had an amulet of gender changing, I made the claim that lizardfolk had the ability to change their gender at will, and from there just messed with the only female in the party). Once he's safely deposited in the jail, I'm going to cement his position as "weirdest Character ever" by having him vomit up a bag filled with lockpicks and a pair of knives. I'm sorry, you play with this guy why, exactly? I would give it two options: 1) DM yourself and show him how it's done. 2) Leave. Railroading is one thing (most DMs do it at some time or another) but he's being so blatant about it (most good DMs hide it so well you'd never know).