Post/Author/DateTime	Post
BadCatMan 09-01-05, 05:08 AM	Hi (Maybe I'm ranting a bit here, but I've got to get this off my chest before the next session.) Two problems, one character. The first: I was wondering how other players deal with the thieving rogue types - the ones who steal from other players, and/or palm the loot before it gets to be shared out. I wouldn't mind so much if he was just skimming off GP, but he takes everything he can get his hands on, even weapons and armour that he isn't proficient in. I suspect he's feeding them to his evil intelligent weapon (which has already eaten one of my axes and a shiny new helmet). He even stole a quest from me, when my dwarf died and he picked up the ancient dwarf holy artifact, and refused and foiled my requests and attempts to get it back. The story: My LN duergar dwarf fighter6 (going on dwarven defender) killed the BBEG dwarf blackguard in a heroic, fantastic one-on-one battle, then ran back to help the party against a black dragon, (then realised he was still affected by dragonfear). Along the way he passed the CE* rogue5/assassin2/lasher1, who asked about the blackguard. I replied he was dead, very dead, forgetting that I have to scan the rogue's every word for lies and ulterior motives. Then the rogue runs back the way I came, going to loot the body. The dragon is still a major threat at this time. So there goes the +1 full plate to a light armoured rogue. The gauntlets of ogre strength to the finesse whipper. Some kind of breastplate-thingey too. And an axe, which has to be magical in some way (what kind of BBEG blackguard doesn't have a magical weapon?). I asked, OOC, 'Why, why, why on earth are you taking these things? You have no possible use for any of this stuff.', and he said something about bartering that I didn't get. The rogue's character and player are one and the same personality, so I suspect he's bluffing/lying to me in RL too. I doubt I could explain my issues to him in a serious conversation. He can keep the damn full plate for all I care, I've got a better set. I'd like to see the gauntlets go to the ranger/barbarian or the monk, if not myself (Moradin knows I need them). But I want that damn axe! I've got the weapon focus. I earned it, didn't I? Okay, that's the first problem. The second is that during the battle he cut the PC half-elf sorcerer's ear off. Don't know why yet. Previously he has admitted to being an assassin in earshot, and once tried to steal the soul of a dead dwarf NPC to feed his weapon. I told him I'd kill him if he did it, and blocked him, but I let it go. I don't want to kill a PC, I didn't sign up for an evil campaign. Apart from being a CE thieving, cheating, murdering SOB, the player and character (having exactly the same personality) are generally a lot of fun. But he's getting to be a pain in the arse, and I'm running out of reasons for travelling with him and not try to kill him. I've tried destroying his evil weapon (which is probably responsible for some, but not all of the rogue's behaviour) only to have him summon it back, and get him in trouble with paladins, which lost me reputation points (I was kind of mean about it), and he talked his way out. Plus, he's a dangerous tripper and disarmer, with a nasty intelligent weapon that eats magical weapons and armour to grow in power (mainly mine so far). Then there's all of those other magic items he's nicked, with various uses, and poisons. And I know that he hasn't used his favourite combo of invisibility + true strike + massive sneak attack for this game-day. I'm incredibly unlucky, my vorpal axe doesn't vorp and I'm badly wounded, so I don't want to get into combat with him, at least not this game-day. I've already used my similar combo of invisibility + do all damage I've taken as bonus damage**.And I don't want to kill a PC, unless really pushed. Well, he'll be climbing out of a hole next week, laden with ill-gotten gains, and my dwarf, seeing what happened to the sorcerer, will be waiting up top. Maybe he'll grab him by the hair and shake all that loot loose. Maybe he should smash his face into the stone and beat some sense into him. I'm not sure I can rely on the other characters. The ranger/barbarian is a CN/CE occasional serial killer type, but his mellowed recently, and now seems to just want to kill himself (he rode his two-bladed sword like a pogo-stick in a death-from-above attack, and nearly castrated himself), and he hasn't been a problem yet (that my character knows about). The LN samurai (katana wielding fighter/monk) would probably side against me just because my character is a peasant and the rogue is noble-born. I would hope that the sorcerer would want revenge for losing his ear, but I'm not even sure of that. Damn thieves. Maybe I should get a new character, and be a vow of poverty paladin. Right. Please excuse the rant. Does anyone have any advice or tips or recommendations to give me, both in character and out, preferably without going too far off a paladin-esque character? Anyone had a similar experience with this sort of character or situation? Maybe we could share our grief stories. * That's right, my dwarf is aspiring for LG, and the rogue is plummeting towards CE. And the DM 'doesn't do alignments'. ** We can gain various super-powers and items. This was how I took down the blackguard. :D And how the rogue got so powerful. :(
Minias 09-01-05, 05:30 AM	This topic has been .... Done. To. Death. However, I will try to be helpful by asking: How do the other players/PCs feel about the rogue/assassin/lasher? Do they appreciate being cheated out of treasure as much as you? Discuss the situation with them. If you can come to a concensus of opinion and then decided upon a course of action with the other players/PCs, then act upon them. Throw the character out of the group, or kill him. If you are alone in your opinion then you must decide if you are enjoying the game. If you are having fun then have your character leave and create a new character, as the the other characters don't share your character's outlook. If you are not having fun then perhaps YOU should leave the group and find another group of people to play D&D with you.
1337 cheese theif 09-01-05, 07:50 AM	Characters are how they are... My advice is loot when you can. If the rogue is sleeping hide his magic weapon but dont destroy it somewhere far. If he`s really leeching steal from him when he isn`t aware... Unfortunatley I would agree with te rogue because it`s the logically best thing to do I mean free stuff on the floor is free stuff none the less no matter how it got there. The disrespect to you death wish to you artifact well... it`s a question of honor I personally would have sold it to the highest bidder... But it`s not the same for a paladin. Try to find an ally that will team up with you and make sure you two trust each other then stick together and pick up treasure together. You can usually sort all the treasure you find when you stay at an inn and distribute trade it then... Take a few ranks in sense motive could help alot...
Havrani 09-01-05, 08:22 AM	With friends like those, who needs BBEGs? My advice would be to just find someone else to play with. Either ask the group to stop inviting the guy to sessions or find another group to play with. Life is way too short to spend with jerks. To find another group, the wizards website has a feature somewhere that helps you find a local group or you can check with your local comic book guys. Also, there are tons of online tournaments on the internet. And if all that fails, just get xbox live with the headset.
KJW 09-01-05, 08:45 AM	You got a problem and Havrani is right about maybe trying to find another group, though that is no guarantee of a better fit. You are playing with immature players and that is a hard thing to correct. Talking to them may work, and is worth a try. The whole PC looting the dead bodies PCs is appalling, and is one of the downright silly things about many gaming groups. It does not happen in my campaigns and thus I place the blame for your situation on the DM, talk to him about the situation if talking to the players doesn't work.
Nom 09-01-05, 08:45 AM	Characters are how they are...Not a good enough answer. Too often problem players insist "I can play my PC how I like" and yet expect the metagame "and you've got to keep him in the party because he's a PC" to apply to them. It doesn't (or shouldn't) work that way - if other PCs must accept yours because he is a PC, then yours must be someone that they would reasonably accept. Deal with it OOC first. "I like you. You are fun. However, I'm fed up with your PC being selfish, antagonistic, and wantonly harming his supposed teammates. If he were not a PC, he would be dead and buried at least once by now. This can't go on. I didn't sign up for an evil campaign, and I certainly didn't sign up to be continually screwed over by a party member. I'd rather fix it OOC, but if it has to go in-character then either my character or yours will die. Obviously, I'd rather it be yours, but now I've told you this I'm sure you can find yet another way to screw me over. However, if it's my character that dies, then I won't be making a replacement while this character - or someone equally antisocial - is in the party." Consider whether it's better to do this one-to-one, or to have one or two other players (including the DM) along. If it were me, I'd be inclined to do it in front of the entire group, but when everyone is relaxed. Don't attack the player, but make it quite clear that this particular PC - and his behaviour - is unacceptable. Finally, I take issue with your comment that "player and character have exactly the same personality". If the player is actually a lying, cheating SOB, then the problem is that you're accepting it. If he's generally socially acceptable OOC but his character is not, then you're well within your rights to point out that if he behaved like his PC does, he'd have gotten the boot long ago. And you're just people who play a game together, not adventurers putting your lives on the line.
BadCatMan 09-01-05, 10:34 AM	Thanks all. None of us have problems with eachother as players, as actual human beings, we all get along great. But as such differing characters, we tend to squabble a bit, and have in-character arguments. (For example, knocking a random foe out cold, then debating what to do them. The lawful types (ie. my character) argue to let them go or arrest them, the chaotic types argue for killing them. DM drops a random encounter on us, and the chaotic ones kill the enemy when we're distracted. Oh well, never mind, move on. That sort of thing.) I feel like we are two different, completely opposite adventuring parties stitched together. As for the rogue's player and character having the same personality... obviously he's not a pyschopathic assassin in RL. He's still a highly chaotic, joking prankster-type. He's fun. So's his character, when he's not screwing us over. Same personality, different profession/alignment. I'll see if I can get a serious conversation out of him and the group, ask if his character is ever going to settle down, and if not, so be it. My character may be a Dwarven Defender, but he can be a sneaky bastard when he needs to be. (Nice duergar upbringing :( ) I'll ask if anyone has any problems with my character too. You never know, after all, and I'd feel less like a wuss. :) Thanks. PS: I should clarify: the rogue didn't take the artifact from my character's corpse, it was given to him by a dying NPC who didn't know better, and the rogue was closest. Ah, Sense Motive. Dwarf Paragon and Defender will be handy here. I'm hoping that a duergar Defender would be damn near assassin proof: immunity to poison and paralysis, uncanny dodge, sense motive. One day his time will come. :D
seldom_seen 09-01-05, 10:09 PM	The only way to play a rogue IS to play him as a lying, thieving, backstabbing son of a b#$ch. You just have to realize who and what your companion is and adjust your game style. Don't leave him alone with loot after a fight. If you have to, the whole party can gang up on him and force a more equal dispertion of the loot. But the way he plays is what gives your campaign a little bit of flavor.
braindead345 09-01-05, 11:44 PM	The only way to play a rogue IS to play him as a lying, thieving, backstabbing son of a b#$ch. You just have to realize who and what your companion is and adjust your game style. Don't leave him alone with loot after a fight. If you have to, the whole party can gang up on him and force a more equal dispertion of the loot. But the way he plays is what gives your campaign a little bit of flavor. I disagree with your opening statement. There is honor amongst theives some of the time and you certainly don't bite the hand of your meal tickets. In other words, the rest of the party might be saps, but they are your saps. If you haven't learned by 5th level not to cheat your long term partners (i.e. your regular party) then you deserve to be lynched as a no good lying, thieving, back stabbing son of a b#+ch. Now, I am not saying that a rogue is not entitled to lie to, steal from, or otherwise cheat fellow party members, but there are ways and times to do this propperly. You want to make the party trust you and to feel a certain loyality to you. The best to do this is to let them think they are getting a fair share of the loot (even if the DM and you know otherwise). Obviously magical weapons and armor are most likely things to be noticed by other party members; and therefor would raise the most suspections. In short, why make waves by stealing the BBEG's magic sword, especially when you can buy a better one with that pouch of fine gems you just snagged?
BadCatMan 09-02-05, 12:26 AM	I sent the email to the group, and the die is cast. I asked him to share and place nice, and not to attack party members. I even said he could keep the crap we have no use for, and wouldn't mind if he skimmed GP off the top. I suggested he tone his character down a tad - or at least steal and assassinate NPCs away from the party. A fair suggestion, I hope. :rolleyes: Now to wait. I suspect he's playing the curse of his evil magic weapon a little too enthusiastically. Heh. I have 'inside information' (aka from the DM) that he may want to get rid of it before too long. Between the curse and my trusty vorpal axe, he may decide to change quite quickly. :D Ah. Just took my level in Dwarf Paragon, and a rank in Sense Motive. Hope that helps.
death_hand 09-02-05, 12:36 AM	i have a friend who likes to play rogues. the first time, he stole 2 rings of protection from me, so i chased him with an other guy till we killed him. I think i was chaotic neutral the second time, instead of fighting with him, I told him that we should make a deal. I would help him steal and he would leave my stuff alone and share a part of the loot. I was LG but slowly turned into N and then into CE. yeah, i know that doesnt make much sense
Slyde Shadowdart 09-02-05, 01:50 AM	Easy. Have him robbed. Then have him killed. Usually, showing a player that what their character does can also be done to them makes them rethink things. Unless they're hellbent on playing chaotic stupid, that is.
BadCatMan 09-02-05, 05:56 AM	I think that went well. We sorted out the treasure situation (Still wants the gauntlets of ogre strength, just to carry all his crap. Meh.), I get the axe (damn that thing better be good and worth the effort), and get to sort out the rest of the booty. It looks like his character may calm down a little. He even had a reason for taking the sorcerer's ear: he thought he was dead and thought it was the perfect opportunity to fulfil his contract with the sorcerer's arch-enemy, who is in turn married to the monk's sister. The monk in turn hates magic-users, doesn't want to upset his sister - even if she is only a woman - and has an peculiar honour system whereby he would have to side with the noble-born rogue, while my dwarf is only a peasant. And the sorcerer can't deal with his nemesis for fear of upsetting the monk. Whew. Its like some twisted D&D version of the Bold and the Beautiful. :D Humans, pah. I think I'm deciphering it though. The rogue will learn not to mess with magic users soon enough. Now I've got to get my dwarf to smack his character over the head a bit, shake him down, make him apologise to the sorcerer, and teach him the error of his ways (or at least block his attempts to cause mayhem). Whew. Thanks all. So, anyone else dealt with problem rogue characters?
Iver Gearsham 09-02-05, 11:59 PM	Yep Bayful Polymorphed her in to a pig and left her in the butchers pen. She didn't know I had a deal with the butcher to keep her alive. When she was the last pig in the poke a few days latter I bought her while under Alterself spell She "Escaped" and I hit her with a Dispell as she hid. You would be suprised at what the phrase Don't be a Pig gets at the table now days.
Ze_Mighty_Vegetable 09-03-05, 03:58 PM	It's normal (and perfectly acceptable) IC behavior for rogues to steal from their party. Well, if every rogue is either incurable kleptomaniac or brian-dead intelligence 6, it is right. In order to adventure with a party, you need to be able to trust them somewhat. After all, you're often putting your life in the hands of your fellow party members. If you have to put a second party member to stand guard in case the thief steal (or backstab) while you sleep, what,s the point adventuring with him? An intelligent rogue is going to think it through and see that the dangers (death or exile) are not worth the gains. now, the equation is metagamed by the thief. Oh, right, I risk a lot doing that, but it's no big deal. Betcha the other players won't ban my character for a bit of stealing.
Gedrin 09-03-05, 04:03 PM	If the rogue can use his class skills to steal from the party fighter... The party fighter can use his class skills to get the stolen goods back. That seems very fair and reasonable to me.
mhr74 09-03-05, 09:18 PM	If the rogue can use his class skills to steal from the party fighter... The party fighter can use his class skills to get the stolen goods back. That seems very fair and reasonable to me. That's a real Diplomacy check. ;)
LCD2YOU 09-03-05, 10:19 PM	told the Dm that I wasn't going to play my honorable character if the guy was going to do that crap. He agreed that I didn't have to deal with it. I rolled up a Wizard, same level as my Paladin but made him NE. What I would do was cast "Detect Magic" on my erstwhile "friends". This was not done to take what they had, at least not while they were alive, but so I could be the first to call for the best stuff after they died. No, I wasn't going to kill them, not unless they tried to kill me first, for their stuff. I also was able to know what tey had on them so after they "made pre-emptive party treasure distribution runs", I would know what new stuff, to a point they had. The player in question started to get upset as I was out decieving him. As he was the king of saying, "You can't use character knowledge", he had trapped himself. Thing was he didn't know what exactly was going on. He knew he didn't have the stuff he thought he once had though. It came to a head one night when I handed the DM a sealed envelope before the game started. I knew what the player, therefore PC, was going to do down to the letter. He was as easy to read as a 3rd Grade reading book. His PC came after mine almost as soon as we started playing. However, I had him dead to rights, and my note to the DM was very detailed and soon his PC and another PC, two of the players were friends, were dead and my mage had all of their stuff. Needless to say, a fight almost ensued, me vs the other two but the DM and the other two players backed me up and the two left in a huff. Moral of the story. When playing with a cut-throat intra-party theif, give them back the same. They hate it.
Havrani 09-03-05, 11:14 PM	told the Dm that I wasn't going to play my honorable character if the guy was going to do that crap. He agreed that I didn't have to deal with it. I rolled up a Wizard, same level as my Paladin but made him NE. What I would do was cast "Detect Magic" on my erstwhile "friends". This was not done to take what they had, at least not while they were alive, but so I could be the first to call for the best stuff after they died. No, I wasn't going to kill them, not unless they tried to kill me first, for their stuff. I also was able to know what tey had on them so after they "made pre-emptive party treasure distribution runs", I would know what new stuff, to a point they had. The player in question started to get upset as I was out decieving him. As he was the king of saying, "You can't use character knowledge", he had trapped himself. Thing was he didn't know what exactly was going on. He knew he didn't have the stuff he thought he once had though. It came to a head one night when I handed the DM a sealed envelope before the game started. I knew what the player, therefore PC, was going to do down to the letter. He was as easy to read as a 3rd Grade reading book. His PC came after mine almost as soon as we started playing. However, I had him dead to rights, and my note to the DM was very detailed and soon his PC and another PC, two of the players were friends, were dead and my mage had all of their stuff. Needless to say, a fight almost ensued, me vs the other two but the DM and the other two players backed me up and the two left in a huff. Moral of the story. When playing with a cut-throat intra-party theif, give them back the same. They hate it.Excellent! Turnabout is always fair play (and shweet revenge).
Bane 09-04-05, 12:17 AM	Blindness/Deafness. Bestow Curse. These are what my Tiefling Wizard uses as warning shots. Then he uses Magic Jar, and uses Sudden Empowered Sudden Maximized Fireball at your stolen body's feet. He voluntarily fails the Reflex save. That's if he's in a good mood. Otherwise, he'll horribly mutilate your body, then give it back to you.
Ze_Mighty_Vegetable 09-04-05, 02:51 PM	Excellent! Turnabout is always fair play (and shweet revenge). Yes, but most players won't consider it "fair" to have their character killed for what they consider IC behavior. As in: I was only playing my character, you can't kill me for it. We devised a way to teach the thief a lesson... We do a non-lethal fight amongst ourselves and the loser doesn't die, he's just unconscious, but we consider he had the crap beaten out of him. it translate as ability damage (broken bones and just plain pain) for 3 game days. If we merely killed the rogue, there was no big deal, the problem player would just make anothwer character. but ability damage (as with all kinds of in-game handiccap) is really bothersome for the player (not just the character), so it ensure that the lesson is learned.
Iver Gearsham 09-04-05, 03:30 PM	In Charater HA! do you know what people did in Character to thieves? in those kind of times? Hanging, flogging, cutting off hands, thumbs, branding Thief in their forhead. If they want to be a thief in game and risk geting caught by the party they can take the in game concequeces. If they object to the inter party treatment it is just in Char for them to handle thieves like that. :P
Havrani 09-04-05, 04:27 PM	Yes, but most players won't consider it "fair" to have their character killed for what they consider IC behavior. As in: I was only playing my character, you can't kill me for it. We devised a way to teach the thief a lesson... We do a non-lethal fight amongst ourselves and the loser doesn't die, he's just unconscious, but we consider he had the crap beaten out of him. it translate as ability damage (broken bones and just plain pain) for 3 game days. If we merely killed the rogue, there was no big deal, the problem player would just make anothwer character. but ability damage (as with all kinds of in-game handiccap) is really bothersome for the player (not just the character), so it ensure that the lesson is learned.You can't "teach" loyalty, you can only eliminate disloyalty. And remember that the rogue didn't just rip them off (which as Iver Gearsham pointed out is an executable offense in medieval times anyways), but he abandoned his team to fight hostiles by themselves while he went to go fill his pockets. Traitors and deserters get one sentence: death. By the way, that's still the punishment in modern times for those crimes, not just in medieval times.
LCD2YOU 09-04-05, 05:56 PM	Whenever I join a new group and there is one true idiot in the group who likes to rip off other PCs, I don't hang with that person. Anyone who'll be so trivial to start off with being a schmuck to the rest of the party is someone IRL I wouldn't want watching my back anyways. While I have played evil PCs, even they didn't go around killing the rest of the group. I have killed other PCs while my character was evil, but that was after they took first blood. Yes, I play Rogues but almost always they are the "dungeon delver" types. They are the ones who can pick a lock, detect a trap and disable devices like there's no tomorrow. On the flip side, they can't pick a pocket, forge a document and in some cases even know how much the loot is worth. While the mages deal with arcane threats, the clerics heal and the fighter types man the front lines, he removes traps and other things he is good at. I can't understand low-lifes who take out their aggression from being a petty little nobody IRL on their "friends" by stealing from them.
mhr74 09-04-05, 06:10 PM	While I have played evil PCs, even they didn't go around killing the rest of the group. I have killed other PCs while my character was evil, but that was after they took first blood. :clap: Lawful/ Neutral/ Chaotic Evil does not imply "Stupid Evil" just as Chaotic Neutral does not imply "Chaotic Stupid."
Ze_Mighty_Vegetable 09-04-05, 06:20 PM	You can't "teach" loyalty, you can only eliminate disloyalty. And remember that the rogue didn't just rip them off (which as Iver Gearsham pointed out is an executable offense in medieval times anyways), but he abandoned his team to fight hostiles by themselves while he went to go fill his pockets. Traitors and deserters get one sentence: death. By the way, that's still the punishment in modern times for those crimes, not just in medieval times. Agreed, but I think you missed my point. I was not saying it is justifiable (ok, it is, but only amongst total morons) to steal from the party. What I was saying is that you have to punish the dweeb after you catch him. In many cases, outright killing is not gonna solve much. Let's say the thief is killed or exiled, wich amount to the same thing (unless the DM is going to solo-quest an anti-social player). The net result is pretty simple, a dead character. Are you going to kill your friend's PC? You can, but odds are you will think carefully before you do it, and there is the very real chance of provoking resentment and/or revenge (not to mention some people just won't do it out of friendship). And even if you kill said PC, will the player have learned the lesson? Probably not. If he was attached to his PC, he's going to be upset. If not, he is going to make another PC (wich means another PC has to be introduce in anot too far fetched way) and won't suffer any consequences. Ability damage is something most players resent. nobody like having a PC that was underpowered. And it is the realistic consequwences of a break of trust. (you'll make sure the guy hurt for some time).
LCD2YOU 09-04-05, 06:26 PM	do to the player what Ze_Mighty_Vegetable suggested to do to the character Sounds fair to me.
The Amazing Dancing Bear 09-04-05, 06:37 PM	Yeah, my friend only ever plays rogues and evil wizards. He reads the rulebooks so he can twist the rules and then gloats over it. He actually conned a new DM into letting him play an LA +0 poison dusk lizard folk with no changes. I've forced him to play a good character and it kind of works, but not as well as I'd like it to. Another DM (we only have 2 campaigns going, BTW) is now DMing a good campaign (I'm a Shadowbane Inquisitor, yo), and is prepared to have the gods smite the heck out of him if necessary. Luckily, you've taught me the importance of helping him out. (High spot+High Listen+High Hide+High M.S. +using a scythe to coup de grace while others are sleeping=one sad munchkin)
20goingon1232 09-04-05, 10:30 PM	Blindness/Deafness. Bestow Curse. These are what my Tiefling Wizard uses as warning shots. Then he uses Magic Jar, and uses Sudden Empowered Sudden Maximized Fireball at your stolen body's feet. He voluntarily fails the Reflex save. That's if he's in a good mood. Otherwise, he'll horribly mutilate your body, then give it back to you. My warning shot is a Disintegrate followed by a Quickened Gust of Wind. I always keep a Quickened GoW on hand whenever I can simply because it is so useful. If I am not high enough level, it is Touch of Idiocy followed by a Dominate. Then I have the offending idiot do a Lady Godiva before voluntarily drowning himself in the local castle's moat. Did I mention I HATE people that threatens party integrety? As DM, I devise long painful deaths for them. In great detail.
Black Kitten 09-05-05, 04:05 AM	Well, There is a simple, mature solution to this, if the rest of the group agrees with you on the topic. "Now, 'Johnny', listen. We really like you and playing with you, but the current combination of you and your character is not going to last. Please think of a way to get rid of your current character and take a new one, or improve him so he gets along." Houserule #1 - The Party has to fit together and your make your character accordingly
Lana "Silvertongue" 09-05-05, 02:05 PM	This all sounds great, till you hit a road block. The parties rogue is the DMs girlfriend. At Low Level. Welcome to my worst nightmare. I really used to enjoy low level characters due to the challenge till this girl came into my gaming groups lives. Now I am all for midcard levels just so I have the power to, in my quiet way, equalize the party balance. We are playing shackled city, she already has 1 magic item and 2 mwk items to the rest of us 2 mwk items or their equivlent. I feel like such a dork for being a wu jen, simply because my taboos prevent me from fixing the problem. Any advice... all I really want to do is steal the item from her to sell and give her a wand of CLW just to make her more party benifitial. But I have not the skills nor the means to do it.
Druk 09-05-05, 02:44 PM	I love playing a rogue, I love the cunning, the trickery, the theft, the backstabbing. But one thing I don't do is stealing from PCs (at least valuable items, trinkets just to toy with them, sure) and I only fight a party member for a good reason (being a CE or CN rogue, most reasons are good-but I pick my battles) I was killed once by an NPC and a PC who insisted I split the quite valuable loot of a guy I killed when they had fled and left me alone to fight him (not very Monkish if you ask me) I pointed out that I had fought him alone while they hid and I was keeping it. They killed me and everyone in the party saw it as fair since I was holding out. As a rogue you've got an uphill battle with your party, you have to win their trust early cause everytime something goes missing, the loot sack seems light or anything unexplainable, you're going to be the first suspect. This guy sounds like he's bringing it on himself, of course we haven't heard his side yet, it also sounds like your DM kinda set the stage with the high level items and superpowers. Of course we have to take what you say with a grain of salt, you're a filthy dwarf
Solidcobra 09-06-05, 07:27 AM	Describe, in high detail, how you break the bones in his hand, rip said hand off, cut the meat to pieces, fry it and force the thief to eat it. After that, pluck one eye out with a glowing hot dagger. Then release him and tell him that that was his first warning.
BadCatMan 09-06-05, 11:32 AM	Okay... some of these methods (ie. Solidcobra's) have become somewhat disturbing... :( My plan to grab the rogue by his hair and shake him until magic items fell out and he apologised didn't work out (the DM nixed it). Instead the rogue backed down after my character gave him a classic dwarven Stern Glare. And I got my well-earned (AKA genuinely looted) stuff. Of course, that axe turned out to be two-handed, so much for my neato shield. And its cursed too. Can't let go, and lose HP when I kill something. Con and damage boosts are nice though. If only I had let the rogue keep it. Then he'd be stuck to a non-proficient weapon, no more stealing and whipping for him. :( The rogue is now dead, anyway, thanks to an enemy cleric with hold person and coup de grace. Unfortunately, he rose again, undead and more powerful than ever before. With a +5 evil intelligent weapon, with special powers like eviscerate and others (total +10, I guess, at least. At level 9.) During the battle, the unlucky sorcerer blasted a balcony full of archers, only to cause the balcony and archers to collapse on top of the samurai (fighter/monk), crushing his leg. Said samurai, incensed at having his "fighting ability impaired", decided to chop off the sorcerer's hand, to "impair his magic using ability". He kept the hand until he could get his leg cured. Some regeneration cured the lost ear of before, and re-attached the hand, and fixed the leg. The samurai and the rogue are still plotting the sorcerer's death, and probably my own character's. I really hope they're joking. Holy crap, they're all insane! So I suppose I should probably just do what everyone else in the group seems to be doing: let it all slide and ignore the rest of the group and their problems, and focus on my own quest, grabbing loot and power, and staying alive. This could very well end in a party-vs-party TPK. And the DM likes conflicts between players. I just wish we could all just get along. :( (Still enjoy it though.)
Fiery_Overlord 09-06-05, 11:46 AM	Well for a good or lawful part which has compulsions against killing, there is the option of turning over the thief to the local justice system. (Medieval justice systems are known for their kind and understanding treatment of thieves. ) If the party has earned any favor with the local power structure (likely if they are heroes) showing that one of their own has betrayed them will likely engender a rather quick response from the law. With spells like Zone of Truth, confessions are too easy to get because silence condemns them just as much as speaking. People forget that they live in a society and that they need not be the ultimate authority. They don’t need to get justice at the end of their own sword point. If injustices have been commited against a character unless he is chaotic or otherwise has reason to distrust the powers that be he can get them dealt with by the local law.
Slyde Shadowdart 09-06-05, 02:22 PM	And the DM likes conflicts between players. That would almost be enough of a reason for me to leave the group by itself. I don't mind the GM condoning a little bit of inter-character tension, but it almost sounds like this guy prefers it. If my options were "play in a game where all of the players are dead set on coming up with reasons their characters wouldn't get along and wouldn't adventure together" and "play a video game based on D&D", I pick the video game. At least my henchmen in NWN don't waste hours concocting ways to **** the other party members off.
WotC_Huscarl 09-06-05, 03:13 PM	Ya know, in, say, the Army, a guy who steals from his squad mates is considered the lowest of the low. You can be the lyingest, cheatingest, backstabbingest SOB walking the Earth, but you don't screw over the guys who stand behind you with loaded guns. At the very least, you'll be awakened some night to a nasty beating. And every time something disappears from then on, you'll get the nasty treatment whether or not you're provably guilty. Stealing from people on whom you depend for your life's safety is a very, very, very bad idea. The next time that character needs someone to hold a belaying rope it just might slip, or someone might accidentally 5-foot-adjust away right before he gets flanked by enemies, or accidentally pour what they thought was a "healing" potion down his unconscious throat. In real life, you'd never put up with being treated this way, and we're civilized. There's no reason why your D&D character, who's just a half-step away from barbarism, would put up with it at all, regardless of alignment. Steve
BadCatMan 09-06-05, 08:40 PM	Unfortunately the authorities tend to be the DM, so if the DM has intended to generate party conflict (he's admitted as much), this doesn't work out. I once tried getting the rogue in trouble with some NPC paladins. He had tried stealing from a store, I tripped him, and he still managed to steal something in the confusion. The shopkeeper protested, the rogue scared him off with a bluff. I managed to get him arrested by the paladins. One was Lawful Stupid, the other was Stupid Good. The rogue talked his way out with his obscene bluff skills, despite my pleas for a Detect Evil, and escaped with a silly curse (quack when he lies - the punishment was thought up by two players who were neutral in this dispute) until he returned the dwarven artifact, which he would have done anyway. I tried again, when the dwarves stupidly gave the artifact back to him. ("He's evil! He could sell it for a handful of beans! He could feed it to his evil weapon!"). They stared at my character like he was an idiot (he's a duergar after all), then the party wandered off. So I'm just not planning my character around keeping the other characters safe. Its each adventurer looking out for themselves, and no one else. I'll let accidents happen, and say 'Meh.' if one of them gets in trouble. (Except for the sorcerer, no problems with him yet, and maybe the ranger, who's mellowed and has the good sense not to be psycho in front of the patry.) My character's personal quest is almost finished. Maybe I should retire him and come back as a Frenzied Berserker. That'll teach them the true meaning of inter-party conflict. :D
20goingon1232 09-06-05, 09:26 PM	Unfortunately the authorities tend to be the DM, so if the DM has intended to generate party conflict (he's admitted as much), this doesn't work out. I once tried getting the rogue in trouble with some NPC paladins. He had tried stealing from a store, I tripped him, and he still managed to steal something in the confusion. The shopkeeper protested, the rogue scared him off with a bluff. I managed to get him arrested by the paladins. One was Lawful Stupid, the other was Stupid Good. The rogue talked his way out with his obscene bluff skills, despite my pleas for a Detect Evil, and escaped with a silly curse (quack when he lies - the punishment was thought up by two players who were neutral in this dispute) until he returned the dwarven artifact, which he would have done anyway. I tried again, when the dwarves stupidly gave the artifact back to him. ("He's evil! He could sell it for a handful of beans! He could feed it to his evil weapon!"). They stared at my character like he was an idiot (he's a duergar after all), then the party wandered off. So I'm just not planning my character around keeping the other characters safe. Its each adventurer looking out for themselves, and no one else. I'll let accidents happen, and say 'Meh.' if one of them gets in trouble. (Except for the sorcerer, no problems with him yet, and maybe the ranger, who's mellowed and has the good sense not to be psycho in front of the patry.) My character's personal quest is almost finished. Maybe I should retire him and come back as a Frenzied Berserker. That'll teach them the true meaning of inter-party conflict. :D Come back as a WIZARD or a PSION. Nothing beats Disintegrate and Gust of Wind. Downright hilarious.