Death, True Ressurection and a Barbarian. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Death, True Ressurection and a Barbarian. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Jonah
05-24-05, 06:25 AM This is the scenario: In the party there is a half-orc barbarian/frenzied berserker/ fighter type of 20th level, an NPC Cleric of 13th level and me an 18th level Mage. Now we were searching for a mage/lich who was Epic level and had some quite scary spells.

The reason we are looking for him is because in my character background he was my mentor until he tried to transform into a lich at which point I killed him and destroyed his phylactory but I couldn't destroy his soul. I had managed to trap him inside a room but he obviously escaped later and was a bit peeved at me and has been hunting me ever since.

Last night was the second time we encountered him. The first time he cast a very successfull feeblemind on me effectively putting me out of the fight. Last night, we sought him out and before we even had a chance, he caught us in the surprise round with a Wail of the Banshee. Because this requires a Fort save and I'm a mage and the cleric is only 13th level, we both dropped down dead, (it was a DC31 and I needed a natural 20.) The barbarian is a munchkin character who somehow causes 50 points of damage before he rolls weapon damage and managed to both make his Fort save and destroy the Lich's body.

Now the problem. The DM has a problem because the barbarian is so tough that he has to put in extra powerfull monsters for us to fight which in turn makes me nothing more than a party booster through spells like mass bull's strength, heroism etc. Needless to say, because he charges head long into combat whilst I stay behind trying to break through spell resistances and the like, he is happily slaughtering all in sight and as a result gains the majority of XP's thus causing me to fall further and further behind.

I am now dead and wondering what to do with my character. Do I allow her to be brought back just to continue as a "henchman" or start with another character. There are only two players and one DM so we are limited to what we can play. I suggested allowing my Mage to return with perhaps a few changes, not stats, kit or spells etc but maybe a change around of feats and the like or maybe try a Prestige class just to give me a chance.

Any suggestions or ideas would be much appreciated.
MarkB
05-24-05, 06:42 AM First suggestion: Have your DM re-read the rules for awarding experience points. XPs should be divided equally amongst the party in all but a few exceptional cases - they don't go to the person who strikes the killing blow. Also, since you're lower level than the barbarian, 3.5E's proportional XP rules mean you should be earning more XP per encounter than the higher level characters.

Second: Once you've got the XP disparities sorted out and are only lagging a level or so behind the barbarian, there's really no excuse for a wizard above 12th level or so to be outperformed by any warrior class of similar level. You should be taking out foes with save-or-die spells like Disintegrate or entire groups with multi-targetting mass-damage-dealers like Chain Lightning or Horrid Wilting before the barbarian even closes to melee range.

From the sound of it, the DM may be making some poor creature choices. Not every powerful creature has SR and energy resistances - you should just as often find the Barbarian struggling to break through high DR while you're happily frying the enemy with fire and lightning.
Jonah
05-24-05, 07:13 AM The previous battle to the Lich was with a 40HD red dragon, the spell resistance was phenominal and I needed ,I think, 17's and above to break through. The barbarian had already been given stoneskin and protection from energy, (fire,) as well as heroism and perhaps one or two other spells by me before we came into contact. I used up most of my spells and only two managed to get through, then once the barbarian died, I kept the dragon busy whilst the NPC dragged him away to safety and still I got much less XP's than the barbarian.

Wizards have considerably less HP's than barbarians so putting my life at risk to save another party member so we could get him brought back I would have thought should have counted for something.

One thing I didn't mention though is that I have an amazing talent for missing out on rolls by 1. Infact, that is probably my most common dice roll regardless whether it is a d4 or d20. Perhaps I just need new dice!
Taeldrin Laesrash
05-24-05, 09:14 AM Your DM needs to go over the rules for awarding XP. Everyone gets an about-equal share. But that's based on level, not if you killed the monster.
Merestil Haye
05-24-05, 02:16 PM An example may help.

Let us suppose that a party consisting of a Bbn 20, a Wiz 18, a Clr 14 and a Rgr 14 have just fought and killed a Nightshade. This monster is a CR 18.

The award received by a party of 18th level characters for this feat would be 5,400 xp.

The DM calculates as follows.The Bbn is 20th level. 20th level characters receive 3,600 for a CR 18; divide that by party number is 900 xp.
The mage is 18th level. 18th level characters receive 5,400 xp for a CR 18; divide that by 4 is 1,800.
The ranger and cleric are 14th level. 14th level characters receive 21,600 for a CR 18; divide that by 4 is 5,400. Each.The lower level characters should, by the RAW, be catching up hand over fist on the higher level ones.

The DMG makes no distinction between character activities in the fight; they have to be there is all. In your example fight against the dragon, the barbarian would have gone down far more quickly than he did without your spells. You most certainly did have a major effect on the course of the fight if the barbarian stood against the dragon even one round longer than he would otherwise have done.

Not that some houserules about characters who leave the fight in the first round then do not return until it is over are unreasonable. Houserules such as "running away means you get no xp".
danielinthewolvesden
05-24-05, 03:45 PM Frenzied berserkers have no business being in a party- they are really just for NPC's.

Explain this to your DM. Then if that doesn't work, stop boosting the frenzied berserker.

However, all the other posters are right- in those encounters, you should have recieved MORE eps, not less. Your DM is also doing Exp wrong. The eps are divvied equally, with a larger number going to those of lower level than the others- not becuase they get a "larger share" but becuase that encounter was worth more than them.
tarkin
05-24-05, 04:36 PM I agree that the DM is doing XP backwards.

But I also think the Frenzied Berserker works fine in a party. Afterall, when you are just 10 pts short of going up a level, he there for you to kill.
cryptictravler
05-24-05, 04:55 PM The issue at hand is one of DM experience and challenge type. A good mix of encounters should challenge a good mix of players. But sometimes certain archetypes are harder to kill by certain means.

Your DM needs to go through good ways to stop mellee machines like the FB. Like a wall or flying or anything with a will save or reflex save (most likely). A lot of Dms like the move to mellee because tactics are harder. In this case anyone who mellees the FB is nuts. Case in point the lich. If you were the lich wouldn't you protect yourselffirst and then start the killing.

He is going to be better at a whole swath of activities, but mage's are tough, really tough at high level because they can rely on defenses and planning. If you keep getting 1 hit KOed by Fort saves and reflex saves....buy or make a 25k ring of evasion and have moment of prescience cast each morning and use it for those important saves. All of a sudden you make it to round two where you have initiative and the chance to make something of the encounter.

If he lets you alter stuff it seems like you need to beat SR, the feats for those are a good thing, a really good thing. There are also a litany of spells which do not use SR. Find them and use them when needed. Spellcasters are hard to play well but are much more powerful if they are well crafted and have good plans going.

Frenzied Berserkers are blunt mellee characters, they are easy to fool, easy to beat. How he killed a liche alone is beyond me. A well made caster type should have killed him dead really dead. The list of spells which make him toast are huge forcecage, acid fog, wall of ice, the sort of thing a liche should and would cast. Your DM probably needs help, why not volunteer.
Jonah
05-24-05, 07:42 PM In the battle against the Lich, he took two of us, myself and the NPC, out in the surprise round. The FB won the initiative, closed the distance and caused over 100 points of damage in his action. The Lich tried to hit him but failed to paralise him then in the next round the FB finished him off with all 5 of his attacks hitting which is 250 points of damage plus weapon damage minus DR. Although he "killed" the Lich, he hasn't found the phylactory so it's still around somewhere.
DungeonMaster
05-24-05, 09:09 PM Your DM sounds very inexperienced. The lich was from what you say in the open to be charged and had no protective spells cast. Even simple things like mirror image let alone prismatic spheres, projected images, astral projection, repulsion, anti-life shell, contingency, I mean the list is very very long that an "epic" wizard should do to protect with.
I don't think there's much hope for your group. If your DM can't manipulate spells effectively then the mellee characters will shine - particularly with a pile of broken non-core material.
Although it's a harsh suggestion my honest suggestion is: Play lower levels and try to stick to the core rules.
Flushmaster
05-24-05, 10:16 PM Your DM is an idiot. The barbarian player is a munchkin. No good will come of this. Find another group.

I know it doesn't really help, but there's nothing else that I can add that hasn't already been stated. I'm just summing it up and restating it in a blunt fashion. Yeah it sucks, but it'll likely keep sucking. Find another group that doesn't suck.
dantedarkstar
05-25-05, 07:59 AM I agree with many of previous posters.

Your DM is doing XP wrong way. In fact, basing XP on the percentage of HP taken down by character (what seems to be more or less the case) is most silly, video-game like, unfair, anti-party way of dividing XP among the ones you can consider.

It greatly promotes munched fighters and munched blaster mages, while completely shafting anyone that actually thinks about PARTY and winning, not just dealing more damage than your friends.

You can't be really surprised to be outclassed if:
1. the berserker is munchkined
2. the XP system greatly favors him (coupled with your actual thinking about party interest, not just being selfish munchkin)
3. the encouters are tailored somewhat against you/DM plays enemies to be completely stupid about the berserker.

ad.3. Yeah, your DM played the lich like an idiot. Trying to paralyze the barb ? That was most stupid thing he could do honestly, except beginning dancing or stabbing himself. He should have cast defensively some hold monster/dominate monster and quickened dimension door away. Not to mention he should never have exposed himself like that to direct attack (simple Fly could take care of that !).

ad.2. As I said the XP system your DM uses is unfair and promoting being selfish *******. If you feel you can bring yourself to that level, you could stop buffing anyone besides you, since there is no gain at all in it. Better buff yourself and load teleport w/o error and like to escape when the things start to go really bad. Wizard surprised is greatly disadvantaged. Wizard surprising has great advantage. Just come back after you prepared yourself and kick ass of everything you have to.
Of course I think the DM will find an excuse to give you minimal XP for that, while giving lots to the barb that died in the meantime, but it's HIM, not you this time who loses levels.
Jonah
05-25-05, 08:59 AM Unfortunately the FB is a pure munchkin as was his last character and the one before that. When I play, I prefer characters with a history and skills that don't just include hitting everything with a whopping big sword. At present I'm at the crossroad where I can either get my mage brought back from the dead, ignore it and bring in a new character or just quit the game.

If I bring in a new character then they will just be stats on a piece of paper as I've had my mage for quite a few months. The option of quitting and finding a new group just isn't one as I live in the north of Scotland where most people have never even heard of D&D and roleplaying is something you do at night when the kids are in bed.

I have just spoken to my DM and he has agreed to let me drop a few levels and take them in a prestige class or something else mage-related so that could make a difference. My RP'ing excuse was that death does strange things to you and perhaps Mystra decided that it wasn't her time and sent her back a slightly changed person. I don't mean drastic changes as in all of a sudden she's gone from a mage to a paladin so I'm currently scouring my books for some possibilities.

The really frustrating thing about the FB is that he's mighty handy to have in a fight as it generally allows me to cast in relative safety. The only problem that really arises is if he fails to come out of his rage when I'm stood next to him so I constantly keep a Dominate Person, Invisibility and Greater Teleport handy.

If anyone has any ideas on potential classes then feel free to let me know.
danielinthewolvesden
05-25-05, 02:15 PM Well, if eps are based upon amount of damage done- then you're a fool if you cast boost spells on the FB. Cast nothing but damage causing spells- not counting boost spells on yourself. A Greaert Invis for example. There are Conjuration spells that have no SR and no save- they are touch spells. Load up on them.
was_fired
05-25-05, 03:37 PM My advise is to ask the FB's player for a favor for a fight or two. Ask him to let you dominate him before he does any damage. Then command him to attack your foes. This means that you get his damage + your damage for XP calculations. If the player is a pure munchkin then he won't allow this, but if he is an okay guy he should. This should annoy the DM enough to hopefully put back in the standard XP system.
MonkeyKing
05-26-05, 07:01 AM Obviously, as the majority have pointed out, your DM is calculating XP points wrongly so that's probably something you should discuss with him. Maybe print out some of the replys from here as examples, Merestil Haye's post would likely serve you best.

With regard to your DM, don't be too hard on him it's not always easy to create encounters which are challenging for everyone at once, especially in a party where there is such a difference in character levels. An encounter which may prove challenging for the lvl 20 munchkin beserker is almost a TPK for the lvl 13 cleric and the reverse (as you seem to find) is just boring for everyone bar the munchkinB. My feeling would be that the issue might be more easliy resolved by keeping the characters in the party within a few levels of each other, especially when there are only three of you. Obviously revising the XP system your DM is currently using should help with this eventually.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jonah 05-24-05, 06:25 AM	This is the scenario: In the party there is a half-orc barbarian/frenzied berserker/ fighter type of 20th level, an NPC Cleric of 13th level and me an 18th level Mage. Now we were searching for a mage/lich who was Epic level and had some quite scary spells. The reason we are looking for him is because in my character background he was my mentor until he tried to transform into a lich at which point I killed him and destroyed his phylactory but I couldn't destroy his soul. I had managed to trap him inside a room but he obviously escaped later and was a bit peeved at me and has been hunting me ever since. Last night was the second time we encountered him. The first time he cast a very successfull feeblemind on me effectively putting me out of the fight. Last night, we sought him out and before we even had a chance, he caught us in the surprise round with a Wail of the Banshee. Because this requires a Fort save and I'm a mage and the cleric is only 13th level, we both dropped down dead, (it was a DC31 and I needed a natural 20.) The barbarian is a munchkin character who somehow causes 50 points of damage before he rolls weapon damage and managed to both make his Fort save and destroy the Lich's body. Now the problem. The DM has a problem because the barbarian is so tough that he has to put in extra powerfull monsters for us to fight which in turn makes me nothing more than a party booster through spells like mass bull's strength, heroism etc. Needless to say, because he charges head long into combat whilst I stay behind trying to break through spell resistances and the like, he is happily slaughtering all in sight and as a result gains the majority of XP's thus causing me to fall further and further behind. I am now dead and wondering what to do with my character. Do I allow her to be brought back just to continue as a "henchman" or start with another character. There are only two players and one DM so we are limited to what we can play. I suggested allowing my Mage to return with perhaps a few changes, not stats, kit or spells etc but maybe a change around of feats and the like or maybe try a Prestige class just to give me a chance. Any suggestions or ideas would be much appreciated.
MarkB 05-24-05, 06:42 AM	First suggestion: Have your DM re-read the rules for awarding experience points. XPs should be divided equally amongst the party in all but a few exceptional cases - they don't go to the person who strikes the killing blow. Also, since you're lower level than the barbarian, 3.5E's proportional XP rules mean you should be earning more XP per encounter than the higher level characters. Second: Once you've got the XP disparities sorted out and are only lagging a level or so behind the barbarian, there's really no excuse for a wizard above 12th level or so to be outperformed by any warrior class of similar level. You should be taking out foes with save-or-die spells like Disintegrate or entire groups with multi-targetting mass-damage-dealers like Chain Lightning or Horrid Wilting before the barbarian even closes to melee range. From the sound of it, the DM may be making some poor creature choices. Not every powerful creature has SR and energy resistances - you should just as often find the Barbarian struggling to break through high DR while you're happily frying the enemy with fire and lightning.
Jonah 05-24-05, 07:13 AM	The previous battle to the Lich was with a 40HD red dragon, the spell resistance was phenominal and I needed ,I think, 17's and above to break through. The barbarian had already been given stoneskin and protection from energy, (fire,) as well as heroism and perhaps one or two other spells by me before we came into contact. I used up most of my spells and only two managed to get through, then once the barbarian died, I kept the dragon busy whilst the NPC dragged him away to safety and still I got much less XP's than the barbarian. Wizards have considerably less HP's than barbarians so putting my life at risk to save another party member so we could get him brought back I would have thought should have counted for something. One thing I didn't mention though is that I have an amazing talent for missing out on rolls by 1. Infact, that is probably my most common dice roll regardless whether it is a d4 or d20. Perhaps I just need new dice!
Taeldrin Laesrash 05-24-05, 09:14 AM	Your DM needs to go over the rules for awarding XP. Everyone gets an about-equal share. But that's based on level, not if you killed the monster.
Merestil Haye 05-24-05, 02:16 PM	An example may help. Let us suppose that a party consisting of a Bbn 20, a Wiz 18, a Clr 14 and a Rgr 14 have just fought and killed a Nightshade. This monster is a CR 18. The award received by a party of 18th level characters for this feat would be 5,400 xp. The DM calculates as follows.The Bbn is 20th level. 20th level characters receive 3,600 for a CR 18; divide that by party number is 900 xp. The mage is 18th level. 18th level characters receive 5,400 xp for a CR 18; divide that by 4 is 1,800. The ranger and cleric are 14th level. 14th level characters receive 21,600 for a CR 18; divide that by 4 is 5,400. Each.The lower level characters should, by the RAW, be catching up hand over fist on the higher level ones. The DMG makes no distinction between character activities in the fight; they have to be there is all. In your example fight against the dragon, the barbarian would have gone down far more quickly than he did without your spells. You most certainly did have a major effect on the course of the fight if the barbarian stood against the dragon even one round longer than he would otherwise have done. Not that some houserules about characters who leave the fight in the first round then do not return until it is over are unreasonable. Houserules such as "running away means you get no xp".
danielinthewolvesden 05-24-05, 03:45 PM	Frenzied berserkers have no business being in a party- they are really just for NPC's. Explain this to your DM. Then if that doesn't work, stop boosting the frenzied berserker. However, all the other posters are right- in those encounters, you should have recieved MORE eps, not less. Your DM is also doing Exp wrong. The eps are divvied equally, with a larger number going to those of lower level than the others- not becuase they get a "larger share" but becuase that encounter was worth more than them.
tarkin 05-24-05, 04:36 PM	I agree that the DM is doing XP backwards. But I also think the Frenzied Berserker works fine in a party. Afterall, when you are just 10 pts short of going up a level, he there for you to kill.
cryptictravler 05-24-05, 04:55 PM	The issue at hand is one of DM experience and challenge type. A good mix of encounters should challenge a good mix of players. But sometimes certain archetypes are harder to kill by certain means. Your DM needs to go through good ways to stop mellee machines like the FB. Like a wall or flying or anything with a will save or reflex save (most likely). A lot of Dms like the move to mellee because tactics are harder. In this case anyone who mellees the FB is nuts. Case in point the lich. If you were the lich wouldn't you protect yourselffirst and then start the killing. He is going to be better at a whole swath of activities, but mage's are tough, really tough at high level because they can rely on defenses and planning. If you keep getting 1 hit KOed by Fort saves and reflex saves....buy or make a 25k ring of evasion and have moment of prescience cast each morning and use it for those important saves. All of a sudden you make it to round two where you have initiative and the chance to make something of the encounter. If he lets you alter stuff it seems like you need to beat SR, the feats for those are a good thing, a really good thing. There are also a litany of spells which do not use SR. Find them and use them when needed. Spellcasters are hard to play well but are much more powerful if they are well crafted and have good plans going. Frenzied Berserkers are blunt mellee characters, they are easy to fool, easy to beat. How he killed a liche alone is beyond me. A well made caster type should have killed him dead really dead. The list of spells which make him toast are huge forcecage, acid fog, wall of ice, the sort of thing a liche should and would cast. Your DM probably needs help, why not volunteer.
Jonah 05-24-05, 07:42 PM	In the battle against the Lich, he took two of us, myself and the NPC, out in the surprise round. The FB won the initiative, closed the distance and caused over 100 points of damage in his action. The Lich tried to hit him but failed to paralise him then in the next round the FB finished him off with all 5 of his attacks hitting which is 250 points of damage plus weapon damage minus DR. Although he "killed" the Lich, he hasn't found the phylactory so it's still around somewhere.
DungeonMaster 05-24-05, 09:09 PM	Your DM sounds very inexperienced. The lich was from what you say in the open to be charged and had no protective spells cast. Even simple things like mirror image let alone prismatic spheres, projected images, astral projection, repulsion, anti-life shell, contingency, I mean the list is very very long that an "epic" wizard should do to protect with. I don't think there's much hope for your group. If your DM can't manipulate spells effectively then the mellee characters will shine - particularly with a pile of broken non-core material. Although it's a harsh suggestion my honest suggestion is: Play lower levels and try to stick to the core rules.
Flushmaster 05-24-05, 10:16 PM	Your DM is an idiot. The barbarian player is a munchkin. No good will come of this. Find another group. I know it doesn't really help, but there's nothing else that I can add that hasn't already been stated. I'm just summing it up and restating it in a blunt fashion. Yeah it sucks, but it'll likely keep sucking. Find another group that doesn't suck.
dantedarkstar 05-25-05, 07:59 AM	I agree with many of previous posters. Your DM is doing XP wrong way. In fact, basing XP on the percentage of HP taken down by character (what seems to be more or less the case) is most silly, video-game like, unfair, anti-party way of dividing XP among the ones you can consider. It greatly promotes munched fighters and munched blaster mages, while completely shafting anyone that actually thinks about PARTY and winning, not just dealing more damage than your friends. You can't be really surprised to be outclassed if: 1. the berserker is munchkined 2. the XP system greatly favors him (coupled with your actual thinking about party interest, not just being selfish munchkin) 3. the encouters are tailored somewhat against you/DM plays enemies to be completely stupid about the berserker. ad.3. Yeah, your DM played the lich like an idiot. Trying to paralyze the barb ? That was most stupid thing he could do honestly, except beginning dancing or stabbing himself. He should have cast defensively some hold monster/dominate monster and quickened dimension door away. Not to mention he should never have exposed himself like that to direct attack (simple Fly could take care of that !). ad.2. As I said the XP system your DM uses is unfair and promoting being selfish *******. If you feel you can bring yourself to that level, you could stop buffing anyone besides you, since there is no gain at all in it. Better buff yourself and load teleport w/o error and like to escape when the things start to go really bad. Wizard surprised is greatly disadvantaged. Wizard surprising has great advantage. Just come back after you prepared yourself and kick ass of everything you have to. Of course I think the DM will find an excuse to give you minimal XP for that, while giving lots to the barb that died in the meantime, but it's HIM, not you this time who loses levels.
Jonah 05-25-05, 08:59 AM	Unfortunately the FB is a pure munchkin as was his last character and the one before that. When I play, I prefer characters with a history and skills that don't just include hitting everything with a whopping big sword. At present I'm at the crossroad where I can either get my mage brought back from the dead, ignore it and bring in a new character or just quit the game. If I bring in a new character then they will just be stats on a piece of paper as I've had my mage for quite a few months. The option of quitting and finding a new group just isn't one as I live in the north of Scotland where most people have never even heard of D&D and roleplaying is something you do at night when the kids are in bed. I have just spoken to my DM and he has agreed to let me drop a few levels and take them in a prestige class or something else mage-related so that could make a difference. My RP'ing excuse was that death does strange things to you and perhaps Mystra decided that it wasn't her time and sent her back a slightly changed person. I don't mean drastic changes as in all of a sudden she's gone from a mage to a paladin so I'm currently scouring my books for some possibilities. The really frustrating thing about the FB is that he's mighty handy to have in a fight as it generally allows me to cast in relative safety. The only problem that really arises is if he fails to come out of his rage when I'm stood next to him so I constantly keep a Dominate Person, Invisibility and Greater Teleport handy. If anyone has any ideas on potential classes then feel free to let me know.
danielinthewolvesden 05-25-05, 02:15 PM	Well, if eps are based upon amount of damage done- then you're a fool if you cast boost spells on the FB. Cast nothing but damage causing spells- not counting boost spells on yourself. A Greaert Invis for example. There are Conjuration spells that have no SR and no save- they are touch spells. Load up on them.
was_fired 05-25-05, 03:37 PM	My advise is to ask the FB's player for a favor for a fight or two. Ask him to let you dominate him before he does any damage. Then command him to attack your foes. This means that you get his damage + your damage for XP calculations. If the player is a pure munchkin then he won't allow this, but if he is an okay guy he should. This should annoy the DM enough to hopefully put back in the standard XP system.
MonkeyKing 05-26-05, 07:01 AM	Obviously, as the majority have pointed out, your DM is calculating XP points wrongly so that's probably something you should discuss with him. Maybe print out some of the replys from here as examples, Merestil Haye's post would likely serve you best. With regard to your DM, don't be too hard on him it's not always easy to create encounters which are challenging for everyone at once, especially in a party where there is such a difference in character levels. An encounter which may prove challenging for the lvl 20 munchkin beserker is almost a TPK for the lvl 13 cleric and the reverse (as you seem to find) is just boring for everyone bar the munchkinB. My feeling would be that the issue might be more easliy resolved by keeping the characters in the party within a few levels of each other, especially when there are only three of you. Obviously revising the XP system your DM is currently using should help with this eventually.