Post/Author/DateTime	Post
stargate525 06-15-06, 04:41 PM	okay, my group has run into a little trouble. We need to shuttle roughly 20 thousand people across a large amount of land (DM says expect three weeks minimum) with little or no water available in that stretch. We're decided to use decanters of endless water. Problem is we have no idea how many would be needed. Basically, how much watyer does a normal DnD person use on a daily basis (this includes washing, cooking, etc as well)?
Shaggy_Shaggs 06-15-06, 04:54 PM	Well, a skin of water holds a person for a day and weighs 4 lbs (64 oz). 64 oz = 1/2 gallon. If the situation isn't so desperate that they're skipping washing and such, might as well bring that up to 1 full gallon per person (they'll probably want more, but they can get by on that). So figure 20,000 gallons per day for that many people. 10 rounds in a minute, 60 minutes in an hour, 24 hours in a day... 14,400 rounds in a day. Running the decanter constantly you'd only need 1.39 gallons per round to keep up. Set the thing to 5 gallon/round Fountain mode and you only need to run it 4,000 rounds (6 hours, 40 minutes) a day to keep the people watered. And if they get out of line wanting more than they need at expense of your time and effort, set it to Geyser to break up riots. :smirk:
Wood 06-15-06, 05:02 PM	okay, my group has run into a little trouble. We need to shuttle roughly 20 thousand people across a large amount of land (DM says expect three weeks minimum) with little or no water available in that stretch. Is your characters name Moses? LET MY PEOPLE GO!!!!
AaronDireBear 06-15-06, 05:37 PM	Get more than one because 20,000 peopel take up lots of room. You dont want everyone waiting hella hours in line. Also it might be a good idea to only travel at night if youre in a desert. What are you escaping from?
stargate525 06-15-06, 06:26 PM	not a desert, just really dry plains. we're running from a desert actually, it's encroachment anyway.
Far_Traveler 06-15-06, 09:42 PM	It was discusses that 900 people can live on one of these comfortably on the lowest setting, eternally.
jasper 06-16-06, 08:53 AM	Ok let see the time to fill various things with the decanter. For an oval swimming pool the calculation is Len * width * avg depth * 5.9 to find the number gallons an oval pool holds. For a rectangle swimming pool the calculation is Len * width * avg depth * 7.5 to find the number of gallons a rectangle pool holds. I got the calculation from a swimming pool site. A 16 by 32 foot pool with an 8.5 deep end and 3 shallow end, holds about 22,080 gals so my parents’ pool holds a lot. The decanter has the rate of 30 gallons per round = 300 a minute = 18,000 an hour = 432,000 gallons a day, and 157,680,000 gallons a year. Then it would take 1.226 hours or 74 minutes to fill the pool at my parents’ house. Dad will be happy. A person needs one liter of water a day to replace water loss by normal activities but needs 2.5 quarts to maintain health but this includes water contain in food.(American Water Works Association 25 facts about water). It was hard to find an exact minimum of water usage per day which did not include modern appliances. I am going to go with one gallon to include bathing, cooking, or activities. SO on the highest setting you only need one for an hour and half. But you still going to factor in people drawing water. My solution water buffalos (water tanks). A gallon of water weights 8.33 pds. barrels come various capacities. 10 to 1000 gallons but lets go with a 20 gallon one. Weight 166.6 pds + 43.4 pds of the empty barrel to make 210 pds. Ok most carts and wagons can handle that. So you only need 100 barrels. At the stream it takes 2 minutes per barrel, or 3.5 hours to refill all the barrels. And another hour for travel and setup so you have about 5 hours a day to filling the barrels. If you do this in relays the time will not decrease but a group of men on horses will be able to refill the refugees on the move with one. But what about the livestock? You properly need to have some breaks during the day to water the livestock this does not mean stoping the whole column but a couple of watering stations in the path of movement. A horse needs 20 pds of feed, a 1 gallon per 100pds so call it 10 gallons per horse. My google fu was not great but I would use the horse for rough numbers. Now the ? is are these people walking and back packing. Or do they have horse, donkey, oxen and carts and wagons etc.
jasper 06-16-06, 09:06 AM	as dm I would throw the following at the party. Stealing from the old oregon trail westerns. Poison water holes you have to keep the animals from drinking it. the olde rattlesnake in the blanket trick Not nice natives who want your horses Grass fire rainstorm and flash flood Someone is poisoning the food supply Is he a good guy or a bad guy spying for the bandits Etc
DeathsAudit 06-16-06, 10:17 AM	You need a Orison called "Create water" in the phb.
stargate525 06-16-06, 10:21 AM	Ok let see the time to fill various things with the decanter. For an oval swimming pool the calculation is Len * width * avg depth * 5.9 to find the number gallons an oval pool holds. For a rectangle swimming pool the calculation is Len * width * avg depth * 7.5 to find the number of gallons a rectangle pool holds. I got the calculation from a swimming pool site. A 16 by 32 foot pool with an 8.5 deep end and 3 shallow end, holds about 22,080 gals so my parents’ pool holds a lot. The decanter has the rate of 30 gallons per round = 300 a minute = 18,000 an hour = 432,000 gallons a day, and 157,680,000 gallons a year. Then it would take 1.226 hours or 74 minutes to fill the pool at my parents’ house. Dad will be happy. A person needs one liter of water a day to replace water loss by normal activities but needs 2.5 quarts to maintain health but this includes water contain in food.(American Water Works Association 25 facts about water). It was hard to find an exact minimum of water usage per day which did not include modern appliances. I am going to go with one gallon to include bathing, cooking, or activities. SO on the highest setting you only need one for an hour and half. But you still going to factor in people drawing water. My solution water buffalos (water tanks). A gallon of water weights 8.33 pds. barrels come various capacities. 10 to 1000 gallons but lets go with a 20 gallon one. Weight 166.6 pds + 43.4 pds of the empty barrel to make 210 pds. Ok most carts and wagons can handle that. So you only need 100 barrels. At the stream it takes 2 minutes per barrel, or 3.5 hours to refill all the barrels. And another hour for travel and setup so you have about 5 hours a day to filling the barrels. If you do this in relays the time will not decrease but a group of men on horses will be able to refill the refugees on the move with one. But what about the livestock? You properly need to have some breaks during the day to water the livestock this does not mean stoping the whole column but a couple of watering stations in the path of movement. A horse needs 20 pds of feed, a 1 gallon per 100pds so call it 10 gallons per horse. My google fu was not great but I would use the horse for rough numbers. Now the ? is are these people walking and back packing. Or do they have horse, donkey, oxen and carts and wagons etc. transporting the water is out, as most ofthe pack animals are already carrying equipment and food. Remember, they are still going to be washing and bathing as normal, so that needs to be thrown in.
PEBKAC 06-16-06, 11:26 AM	The problem is not really how many Decanters you need, but how will you distribute the water to the people? Twenty thousand is a lot of people. While one Decanter will technically meet the water needs, how do you actually distribute the water to 20,000 people with one decanter? Once you figure out how you will use the Decanters to distribute the water, that will tell you how many you need. For instance, people could be divided into groups of 25 and each group has a 50 gallon barrel for their daily water. Thus you would need 800 barrels for people. Add in what’s needed for the pack animals and live stock, and you could need between 400 to 800 more barrels. I would err on the side of caution and give each group 2 barrels for a total of around 1,600 barrels. At the fountain setting, it would take 10 rounds to fill a barrel. Give another 2 minutes to move the barrels in position and such, and its takes roughly 3 minutes to fill each barrel. That means to fill all 1,600 barrels; it takes 4,800 minutes, which is 40 hours. Thus with 2 [/]Decanters[/i] 20 hours, 4 Decanters 10 hours, 8 Decanters 5 hours, 16 Decanters 2.5 hours, and 32 Decanters 1.25 hours. I would take 32 Decanters. Each person assigned to fill barrels would thus be in charge of 50 barrels and 625 people. These people could also help with other problems associated with moving that many people as they could be directly in charge of their group. Note that you will still need to transport some water for use during the day. You can wait till the end of day camp to bathe and whatnot, but you still need to transport some water for use during the day. If you filled barrels on the move, then you could get away with as few as either 8 or 16, but this would require a lot of riding around on the part of the person who has the Decanter as they have to navigate to the barrels. transporting the water is out, as most ofthe pack animals are already carrying equipment and food. Remember, they are still going to be washing and bathing as normal, so that needs to be thrown in. After reading this, I am at a loss as to how you will distribute the water. Without knowing how the people will hold the water you give them, it is really hard to say. The less water that can be pooled for storage, the more you Decanters you need. If the only real storage system you have for water is water skins and the occasional bucket for animals to drink out of, you need considerably more Decanters. If this is the case, I would up the number to either 64 or 128. One last note, I would not use the geyser setting as that actually produces back pressure and requires a DC 12 strength check and deals 1d4 damage each round. It would be like filling a bucket with a fire hose and could cause considerable damage and outright kill a level 1 commoner if they got hit by it.
jasper 06-16-06, 02:11 PM	start gate that is why is used 1 gallon per person. Um not packing water barrels is bad idea if you don't know where the next water hole is and if it safe. Plus water is always disappears. 100 20 gallon water barrells is the min need. If you been in the army that is 2 silver bullets of kookaid. or 4 of the 5 gallon coleman camping jugs\gater aid barrels etc. You don't move the barrels you move the decanter to the barrel. At stream it takes 2 minutes to fill the barrell. So that is roughly 3 hours 33 minutes. leaving 20 hours to pass the decanter from horseman to horseman. You will not need barrells for the livestock. two cross horse and two 5 foot poles and 1 canvas bath tub. If you stop at noon you just have to firgure out how many tubs you want the horses to drink from. Or 3 poles and canvas bag with faucets in them. Put those on the advance scout party and then one person and set up and wait for the guy with the water hose to come calling. Then the wagon train people use the buckets on board to draw water from the bags and take back to the horses. edit begins here Oh goody. New stuff from the army. The 3,000-gallon onion tank is a highly mobile, easily transportable, manually inflatable, collapsible fabric water tank. The tank is 23 by 28 by 42 inches and weighs 130 pounds packaged. The tank is 56 by 148 by 94 inches and weighs 24,020 pounds filled with water (Figure D-1). From fm 10-52-1 appendix d. Take 7 of these and you got your water for the day. Call it 30 minutes setup time. Fill time is 10 minutes on geyser. A five man team can rig a support beam so two or more men can hold the geyser. But this a little too big. In the field mess we had a few collapsible fabric drums which carried 55 gallons when full iirc It was basically 3 six foot long poles, a metal plate with holes for the poles and chain in center. A od green canvas bag with a dust cover and one metal rim with 3 chains connecting to the center. And the center was clipped into chain above. It took 3 minutes to setup well more if did by the regs digging footing holes for the posts, and laying down peddles to keep the mud down. Call it 10 pds when empty. Fill time is about 6 minutes on stream. Under 2 on fountain. Call it 10 minutes total setup time. Break down time is less especially if empty. http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/10-52/Ch2.htm Speaking of bathing you don’t shower but bathe in your pot helmet or a bucket. So call it a gallon of water each of bathing and you don’t have to bathe each night. But if you need a shower canvas bag with shower head. Call it six poles each 8 feet long. 3 for shower head, 3 for curtain. So I see only the need for two decanters.
Yak of Darkness 06-16-06, 02:17 PM	TOne last note, I would not use the geyser setting as that actually produces back pressure and requires a DC 12 strength check and deals 1d4 damage each round. It would be like filling a bucket with a fire hose and could cause considerable damage and outright kill a level 1 commoner if they got hit by it.I dunno, it saves him from the "too many people" problem. :P = In addition to the "how are you holding/distributing the water" question, I've got to ask why, when you're leading 20,000 people on what seems like is effectively an escape mission, making sure everyone is properly and regularly bathed is so damn important. You all are on the move. Natural water is scarce, and unless you get a whole lot of decanters of endless water, your magical source of water (while endless) is still limited in how much you can use at once. This is compounded by what seems like an inability to store/carry excess water, pretty much forcing you to rely on your decanters alone. You can dump a whole lot of your refugee resources making sure that everyone will be able to smell perfume fresh at all times in your nature run, or you can get a few, make sure nobody goes thirsty, move faster, and put up with some people stinking from time to time.
ShadowDragon8685 06-16-06, 03:41 PM	Well, how are you transporting these people? If you're getting extravegant with your method of locomotion, you can get extravagant with the method of hydration. Then again, why bother? Implant the Decanters as permenant sources of water and you can simply resettle and begin to irrigate. Turn the plains into verdant fields again. :) That said, if you wanna move, here's how you do it. Design a huge, and by huge I mean huge, wagon train. And by train I mean a real train. Each wagon should be an 18-ox affair. Tie each group of oxen to the wagon in front of them, so they all literally play follow the leader. Set the decanters at the front of the train, high on it, and use the old log-chute trick to send water down the troughs on each side of the train. People who're thirsty can simply dip in a cup. For bath wagons and such, have chutes diverting some water flow through the wagon and back to the chute, with a tap inside so they can pour in the water. (Hint: You'll want Bathtubs of Prestidigitation, to heat the water.) For the oxen and such, use little tributary chutes to divert a bit of water off and run it in front of each oxe, so it can just drop it's head and drink on the march when it wants to. Excess water (and even with a 20,000-person train, there will be excess if you have two decanters, more if you have more decanters going, which I reccomend) simply is trailed out behind you, irrigating the soil in your path.
Psychoticpsymon 06-16-06, 09:22 PM	A very serious question would be, "Why the hell are they worried about how bad they smell if they are running from something?". all they need is drinking water.
stargate525 06-16-06, 10:54 PM	Then again, why bother? Implant the Decanters as permenant sources of water and you can simply resettle and begin to irrigate. Turn the plains into verdant fields again. :) heh, that's not a bad idea... A very serious question would be, "Why the hell are they worried about how bad they smell if they are running from something?". all they need is drinking water. we're running away from a desert... it doesn't move all that fast...
Psychoticpsymon 06-16-06, 11:16 PM	I'm sorry, I didn't really mean running in the sense that you move at X4 your base speed. I meant that you are turning your back and high tailing it. Either way, why do they care about smelling good on the trip? Are they also worried about sunburn, because this could cause some problems in a pre-modern society? It has been posted previously that the waterskin will supply water for a day. This is in a normal situation. For a desert, I would double or triple it to be safe. Oh, and use compasses, otherwise you're going to move in a giant circle :)
ShadowDragon8685 06-17-06, 01:08 AM	A very serious question would be, "Why the hell are they worried about how bad they smell if they are running from something?". all they need is drinking water. Because poor sanitation leads to outbreaks of disease, which is not something you want on a 20,000-civilian march. The water is unlimited, baths for all! Twice a day!
Drachasor 06-17-06, 01:47 AM	Do you have any bags of holding or portable holes? If so, use them to carry random supplies and equipment that are not needed during the trip. Use the extra animals to ferry water about. If you can make some simulacrums of dragons (or another very big creature), then you could use them to carry huge amounts of water about (and refill what they carry instead of dealing with each person one at a time). That said, what level is the party, what are the characters in it, and what resources do you actually have? -Drachasor
BenTGaidin 06-17-06, 03:25 AM	For the oxen and such, use little tributary chutes to divert a bit of water off and run it in front of each oxe, so it can just drop it's head and drink on the march when it wants to. Excess water (and even with a 20,000-person train, there will be excess if you have two decanters, more if you have more decanters going, which I reccomend) simply is trailed out behind you, irrigating the soil in your path. I like the water-train idea; that's probably what I'd go with if I were attempting it. I wouldn't try to water the oxen while moving, though, because I think they're likely to stop walking while they try to drink; it's probably simpler to just occasionally stop the train so that the oxen can be unhitched and drink, and stragglers can catch up. (Besides, you'd want to take the yokes off occasionally so as to avoid creating sores on the oxen's skins.) If you're worried about the loss of momentum, a casting of grease underneath the train's wheels will aid you greatly in getting started again. And for bathing... I'd consider occasionally turning a decanter upwards and setting it to 'geyser' mode; a little shower wouldn't hurt, and people who're trudging through the desert would likely appreciate it.
Ziggaraut 06-17-06, 08:33 AM	If you can make some simulacrums of dragons (or another very big creature), then you could use them to carry huge amounts of water about (and refill what they carry instead of dealing with each person one at a time). Aren't Simulacrum's made of snow? :confused:
NightBreeze 06-17-06, 10:35 AM	Aren't Simulacrum's made of snow? :confused: The body is made by snow, but when the casting is completed it changes, i suppose.
stargate525 06-17-06, 11:56 AM	That said, what level is the party, what are the characters in it, and what resources do you actually have? the characters, a rogue, a monk, and a sorceror(me), all level 15 and with essentially unlimited resources (within reason), we're doing this for the King, so access is not a problem. So if we run the logistics correctly, with baths, two decanters should do it?
tharivol266 06-17-06, 11:58 AM	assuming you have the money from somewhere to do this. instead of using barrels to hold the water you could use portable holes. weightless, easy to clear stagnant water(unflod on the bottom side of a wagon) easy to store, and you could just strap a ten foot pole on each wagon with some sort of dipper for when it gets too low to reach. and in a group of 20k people there has to be a few adedpts, clerics, wizards and sorcerers so you could just have wands of prestidigitation for all hygenic needs....lots of them...and only for use when the casters run out of the prestidigitation spell itself.
ShadowDragon8685 06-17-06, 12:02 PM	Just march away from the desert and use your magical and financial resources to settle a verdant grassland.
Jhulae 06-17-06, 12:14 PM	Because poor sanitation leads to outbreaks of disease, which is not something you want on a 20,000-civilian march. The water is unlimited, baths for all! Twice a day! So, basically, the OP needs at least two. One to create drinking water, and one to be turned on guyser all the time to hose down the masses.
CryoSilver 06-17-06, 06:40 PM	You can use shaped Walls of Stone to make giant pools/troughs.
Rolof 06-18-06, 08:25 AM	Errr...little confused here. The party has the backing of the king, who is apparently trying to save some portion of the populace of his kingdom from an encroaching desert, right? Well, with such resources at the party's disposal, why even evacuate the area? Somebody else already said they could just GIVE the decanter to that province, and they'd be set. That would take care of their water at least, but there's the desert to be dealt with still. So, the king could offer a reward of some sort to any druid willing to move to the effected area. A 5th level druid could cast plant growth every day. Plants (and their roots) keep soil from eroding away; soil erosion is the biggest factor in expanding deserts, complicated by winds. There's also the feather tokens, 400 gold gets you an instant tree I think-a few dozen of these plus plant growth gives you a nice oasis from which to combat the spreading of the desert. If need be, a higher level cleric or druid could even cast a hallow spell, and choose endure elements as the secondary effect, letting all residents benefit from it, and it works for 1 year. Of course, you may have some reason for doing it the way you are, I have no idea. Just trying to offer what I think are logical ideas. Just wondering, is the spreading of the desert a natural thing that the king is just now realizing something needs to be done about, or something nefarious afoot? Perhaps the party should investigate....
Vanigo 06-18-06, 04:22 PM	The water train sounds a bit fragile. I'd go with something a bit simpler: Get maybe six decanters and use each to run a fountain on wheels. Distribute them more-or-less evenly througout the refugee train, and let the people come get their own water. You'll have tons of water spilling on the ground, but that's not really a big deal.
ShadowDragon8685 06-18-06, 07:21 PM	The water train sounds a bit fragile. I'd go with something a bit simpler: Get maybe six decanters and use each to run a fountain on wheels. Distribute them more-or-less evenly througout the refugee train, and let the people come get their own water. You'll have tons of water spilling on the ground, but that's not really a big deal. .... Water. Water + dry soil = mud. Mud = caravan's worst nightmare.
jasper 06-19-06, 09:24 AM	Ok why does appear everyone is marching day and night? Yes two decanters should do it. Remember people you can bath with a bucket of water or for you old guys and gals out there you old steel pot helmet. Any civil war reactors what to talk us thru it? It appears some people missed the fact a human needs 2.5 quarts (2.37 liters) of water to be healthy and some of that is in the food consumed. I used a gallon so you could have a sponge bath or extra drinking water. The second decanter allows limited showers. You will need some the canvas tubs and canvas water barrels. I need to know what are the limits. How much livestock both the draft animals, farm animals, and meals on the hoof. How many transport vehicles? How many support vehicles and personnel (black smith, armourer, weapon maker, ) [ note I did not include cooks because that can be done around the camp fire]? How fast is the desert moving? What is slowest movement of the refugees? What is the standard travel time? 8 hrs with 1 lunch break etc?
tharivol266 06-19-06, 10:54 AM	.... Water. Water + dry soil = mud. Mud = caravan's worst nightmare. except that the water would be coming out behind them and the would be moving while it was so it would get spred out and probably just make wet soil and not mud.
shruggar 06-19-06, 05:02 PM	All these posts about "Just give them a Decanter and they will never need to move" seem to be ignoring some key evidence: (all below is from the perspective of the setting) 1) Decanters of Endless Water exist, and are not so expensive as to be considered rare. 2) Deserts exist Conclusion: Decanters of Endless Water are not a cure for desertification. Personally, I argue that deserts come into being when there is a lacking of connection with the element of water, so things like Decanters of Endless Water become less effective when taken to such an area. Further, Decanters effectively "drain" an area of its water element connection, so two decanters in a desert area would only provide as much water as 1 decanter times some multiplier less than two. (I've never worked out a formula, the DM has the power to be vague and say ~~it's maaagic~~) While Decanters still exist and can provide water, they can be limited either by how much they can be used at a time, or by how much comes out at once, or both. If you want to be really nasty, you could have an elder water elemental plane shift in and demand to know why you are causing chaos in his realm. The same applies to the plantlife spells. It's not ruled out completely, but in general I am of the opinion that whatever levels the players are, they shouldnt be travelling God salesmen who can solve all problems with a low-level item. (otherwise the problems wouldnt have existed in the first place) This also applies to earth-based spells on the ocean, air based spells under-water, etc. Take a look at the rules for spells functioning on different planes for some ideas. I like magic god buttons, but I dont like them to be so easy that nobody knows why they didnt just press it. Alternatively, you could have the use of Decanters work out, but instead cause massive flooding. (You're adding a bunch of water to a desert, after all) Dont really care what the consequences are, so long as there are consequences the game will keep interesting :) And it all depends on your level. If "Yeah, sure, you can do that", but you need to go on some long quest just to find these things, then yeah, that works too.
CryoSilver 06-19-06, 05:33 PM	I always thought of Decanters as tiny gates to the Plane of Water. But anyways, like I said, 2 walls of stone (one to make a cylinder, one to make a bottom) and you have a swimming-pool sized trough for water, which people can fill their waterskins from once a day.
Millennium 06-19-06, 09:45 PM	As others have said, you can get by with only one or two decanters. However, I strongly suggest that you use four. Divide your group into 36 smaller subgroups of 555 people each, which camp in roughly a 6x6 square. Then, when you're in camp for the day, set each decanter in Fountain mode at one of four "watering stations", indicated by circles on the schematic below... ------ -0--0- ------ ------ -0--0- ------ When it's set up this way, there are several advantages: 1) No matter where you are in the camp, you are never more than one square away from a watering station. This should help keep the people from getting too restless. The lucky ones who camp in the same square as a watering station don't get much privilege over the ones who don't, because even the unlucky ones are only one square away. 2) You don't have to run the decanters as long to keep everyone watered. The decanters won't run out no matter what you do, but the less time you spend watering people, the more time you can spend moving. 3) If something happens to one or even two of the decanters, you still have enough water for everyone; it's an inconvenience, but it's not the end of the world. 4) Easy defense against outside attack: you can set up warriors and watchers on the perimeter to help guard against attacks, and then a second line of defense using the decanters on Geyser mode. Children, the elderly, and the women (depending on the gender attitudes of your campaign setting) can take refuge in the center.
jasper 06-20-06, 09:22 AM	I think is going to be hard to bed down 555 people in 30 foot by 30 foot square plus sleeping in mud for those closest to the fountain. But hey peasants are covered in mud.
darth_blitzkrieg 06-20-06, 09:29 AM	Since this is a planned, prepared evacuation you have it a lot easier. Create your camps in advance. You can have the first week of camps set up easily in the time it takes to get everyone packed up and moving on the first day. You will have a good idea of how fast you are going to be going. You have a water detail mounted on light horses. They ride ahead and set up campsites at 1 day march (for your evacuees) intervals, and watering/rest areas at the 1/2 to 1/4 day intervals. They can use the canvas barrel type containers, since they are very portable. Even if they only set up that night's camp, light horsemen will easily be able to ride ahead, scout the area, set up a basic camp site and have your water supply all set up for the caravan's arrival. The next morning, the water detail takes the water containers to the next location and fills them. They can then stay and guard the water supplies. The only thing you really want to guard is the decanters themselves. Everything else can be replaced relatively easy.
Millennium 06-20-06, 10:08 AM	I think is going to be hard to bed down 555 people in 30 foot by 30 foot square plus sleeping in mud for those closest to the fountain. But hey peasants are covered in mud. The squares don't have to be 30' by 30': I intended them to just be a relative unit of measure; one square is however much space it takes to sleep 555 people in camp conditions. However you arrange 20,000-odd people, they're going to take up more or less the same amount of space. I was merely suggesting one possible configuration that kept people reasonably close to the fountains.
OleOneEye 06-20-06, 01:24 PM	20,000 people are going to string along for several miles and move at an incredibly slow pace - especially when you consider all the children, pregnant women, infirm, etc. If they averaged 5 miles a day, you would be doing pretty good. If folks are walking, they are only going to be able to carry about a day's worth of water on them, assuming each has a container suitable for the task. Thus, they will have to fill up their water supply each day. Four watering holes will be completely inadequate to handle the needs. Imagine a concert where there are only four concession stands. Long lines will form. Folks are tired, blistering from the heat, angry about having to leave everything they know to travel across the desert to safe but unknown lands. You will have fights continuously breaking out, vandalism, murder. At the bare minimum you will need a watering station for each 500 people - likely for each 100. I know if I was walking across the desert, trying my best to provide for my wife, toddler, and newborn, there is no way I would patiently wait 2 hours each day for my chance at the watering station.
jasper 06-20-06, 02:06 PM	2 wineskins for every adult human = 1 gallon of water. In the srd a cart or wagon can move 12 miles on the plains. Allowing your demi humans who do move same rate as humans to ride occasionally in wagons and you can move the whole city 12 miles each day leaving 15 hours at end of march to the morning march to rest, feed, rewater, etc.
Vanigo 06-20-06, 11:08 PM	20,000 people are going to string along for several miles and move at an incredibly slow pace - especially when you consider all the children, pregnant women, infirm, etc. If they averaged 5 miles a day, you would be doing pretty good. If folks are walking, they are only going to be able to carry about a day's worth of water on them, assuming each has a container suitable for the task. Thus, they will have to fill up their water supply each day. Four watering holes will be completely inadequate to handle the needs. Imagine a concert where there are only four concession stands. Long lines will form. Folks are tired, blistering from the heat, angry about having to leave everything they know to travel across the desert to safe but unknown lands. You will have fights continuously breaking out, vandalism, murder. At the bare minimum you will need a watering station for each 500 people - likely for each 100. I know if I was walking across the desert, trying my best to provide for my wife, toddler, and newborn, there is no way I would patiently wait 2 hours each day for my chance at the watering station.They're not drinking fountains. They're full-sized fountains on wheels, about 10 feet across. 12 people could get at a fountain at once, easily. (That's more than one person per 5-foot square unless you count the corners, but it's a noncombat situation; they can squish a little.) To be wildly conservative, assume two minutes to fill whatever containers they have (and if they don't have appropriate containers, give them some at the start of the trip, and have plenty of spares), and you can get 360 people through a fountain per hour. Assuming people are coming for eight hours out of the day, that's a watering station every 2,880 people. That's seven needed total. Now, to make sure you don't have everyone going for the fountain at once, you can move them around the refugee train on a daily cycle. It's win-win: the people don't have to walk as far, and you're guarenteed a more-or-less steady stream of customers. Or, if for some reason you don't think that would work (although I can't see why), you could do this: Have something like 100 water-carrying wagons. Get a couple decanters, and have people on horses (or magic carpets or whatever) run them around refilling the tanks periodically. Even with a very modest 500-gallon tank, each wagon could support its 200 people for a day with a huge margin left over.
CryoSilver 06-20-06, 11:21 PM	500 gallons weighs 2 tons, plus the wagon itself. That's quite a bit of weight; how many horses are available?
OleOneEye 06-21-06, 12:25 AM	How many days in a row could a 5 year old child, 70 year old man, halfling with a gimp leg, or nursing mother walk for 8 straight hours? In a desert, presumably with temperatures nearing 100 degrees or more in the daytime? How are you going to keep fights from breaking out as a person cuts in line? Will well-to-do willingly wait in line with poor peasants?
stargate525 06-21-06, 02:33 AM	How many days in a row could a 5 year old child, 70 year old man, halfling with a gimp leg, or nursing mother walk for 8 straight hours? Not too far. That is, in fact, what some of the carts are being used for. In a desert, presumably with temperatures nearing 100 degrees or more in the daytime? For the last time, NOT A DESERT. Not even that hot. Just really, really dry. How are you going to keep fights from breaking out as a person cuts in line? Will well-to-do willingly wait in line with poor peasants? uhh, the town guards aren't going on paid leave here... and the nobles will just have to deal with it if they want to travel with us.
jasper 06-21-06, 09:10 AM	why is everyone thinking about 1 to 4 water points? One wagon per 100 people requires 5 20 gallon barrels which is enough water to include drinking, cooking, and a quick wet wipe bath. And extra 3 barrells for livestock and all you have to do is refill at night. If you have 2 this can be done quickly mostly likely before dinner chow is served. If you refill twice a night, and require the parents to carry two waterskins and refill those at night you will have no water problems. 8 hours of walking will be 12 miles. You tell me an kid can walk 12 miles in a day? Note the 12 miles is regular march it assumes you not pushing it, taking potty breaks, water breaks, rest breaks, etc.
Thynass 06-21-06, 11:45 AM	okay, my group has run into a little trouble. We need to shuttle roughly 20 thousand people across a large amount of land (DM says expect three weeks minimum) with little or no water available in that stretch. We're decided to use decanters of endless water. Problem is we have no idea how many would be needed. Basically, how much watyer does a normal DnD person use on a daily basis (this includes washing, cooking, etc as well)? You need as many Decanters as your DM thinks you need. I have glanced over this thread and believe that your DM will not have considered the issue in quite as much depth as it has been covered. I'll happily be wrong (for things are always better that way), but as a DM, if the issue came up, I would guess at how much is needed, and that would be the answer.
Vanigo 06-23-06, 12:19 AM	500 gallons weighs 2 tons, plus the wagon itself. That's quite a bit of weight; how many horses are available? I believe the OP said the available resources were pretty much unlimited. Besides, it only takes a pair of heavy horses to pull 2 tons. One if there's a good road, but there isn't.
jasper 06-23-06, 09:49 AM	oK a little drift here. other problems I would throw at the pcs. Wagon break down. Griping babies, grannies, and aunties, Land shark!
ShadowDragon8685 06-23-06, 10:42 AM	I say again. This "Move 'em out" idea is foolhardy. Just use the Decanters to counteract the dryness of the area and refertalize it with water. Bam, problem solved, nobody needs leave their homes!
jasper 06-23-06, 03:07 PM	Enterprise Alabama has a population of just over 20k. It has 31 square miles of land. 5280*31 = 163,680. Using the pool formula 163,680 * 163,680 *.0833 = 2,231,702,161.82 gallons to cover the land in one inch of water. It would take 5,165.97 days or 14.15 years to water the lawn. For just an inch of water. Average rainfall is 56 inches per year. The Sahara has 3 inches per year Shadow dragon looks like you need at least 14 decanters to fight back the desert.
ShadowDragon8685 06-23-06, 03:09 PM	They're playing with "Effectively unlimited" resources. They can easily come up with that. :)
yonman 06-23-06, 03:36 PM	Only 1 is needed. Turning the Decanter's Geyser on at 30 gallons per round is plenty of water for an entire community of people so long as it's running at least 8 hours per day. Desert would probably require at least 3x the normal amount of water per medium humanoid, so 3 gallons per person at 20,000 people = 60,000 gallons per day. Note: These figures are from the core rules and Sandstorm, depending on how hot it is. Decanter does 30 gallons per 6 seconds = 60,000 gallons in roughly 3.5 hours. Traveling 8 hours/day leaves plenty of time to use the decanter with the remaining 16 hours spent resting. There are lots of towns or pre-generated civilizations that use a single decanter turned on the entire time = endless supply of water that can be stored.
Kradlo 06-23-06, 06:14 PM	Previous posts have already brought up some of the issues you will face on the exodus. Twenty thousand civilians is a lot of people to take with you, so think in terms of worst case scenarios. Two decanters of endless water should be enough to provide water for the trek. So, get at least four of them. It's the weak link in the chain, so carry spares. You'll need water at the watering stops, if you make them with enough area that 20,000 thirsty people can approach for water. The reminder about rock concerts and water fountains is accurate. Think about using spells or summoned earth elementals to quickly dig long trenches and fill them with water. For the same volume of water, a long trench will have more of a perimeter than a round pool, so more people can fill their water skins at the same time. You will want enough water for bathing. You don't want disease making your journey a one-way trip to hell. Moreover, the morale issues of having thousands of unwashed bodies is nightmarish. Think of the gamers at conventions that don't understand the basics of hygiene, and multiply it to twenty thousand. See what I mean? This is going to be a long, difficult journey for everyone. Good luck!