Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TimelordSimone 06-01-07, 07:04 PM	I don't know what I'm letting myself in for, but... I was talking with one of my players for my new campaign. We thought it would be a good idea, if his character was secretly evil. So.. He will be playing a Lawful Evil character in a predominantly Chaotic Good group. Basically, we were wondering how to play this effectively, sorting out the character's aims and methods etc. (and the reason I the DM posted this, is so the other players won't read it)
Apupunchau 06-01-07, 07:15 PM	I've had this problem and your first issue is going to be players who detect evil every chance they get. My DM gave me a magic item that made it so my alignment was undetectable. Other than that just make sure the player keeps his mouth shut about it, I managed to actually switch from Lawful Evil to Lawful good 4 months into a weekly game and no one figured out I was evil. Although in the beginning I almost got caught slitting a fallen enemies throat before he told the party he knew who I was.
MasonMurdoc 06-01-07, 07:15 PM	I'd be said player The character is a "Silver Tongued Deceiver" The class is Rogue, an he'll be mostly using charisma based skills, and possible on new languages as well Just a few points I thought were worth mentioning
Rerecros 06-01-07, 07:23 PM	There is nothing wrong with mixed alignment parties (except if one of them is a paladin). I have friends and coworkers with different beliefs and some of them are jerks, but that doesn't mean I'd pull out a +1 long sword and kill them because of it (except if i were a paladin). In a CG party, a LE character would be more narrow minded and more willing to do anything to achieve his goals, and this might cause some grinding gears, but as long as they keep things professional it will work. There's no need for secrets, unless he is also some sort of secret agent working against the other PCs, in which case he would be a problem regardless of his alignment.
MasonMurdoc 06-01-07, 08:05 PM	There is nothing wrong with mixed alignment parties (except if one of them is a paladin). I have friends and coworkers with different beliefs and some of them are jerks, but that doesn't mean I'd pull out a +1 long sword and kill them because of it (except if i were a paladin). In a CG party, a LE character would be more narrow minded and more willing to do anything to achieve his goals, and this might cause some grinding gears, but as long as they keep things professional it will work. There's no need for secrets, unless he is also some sort of secret agent working against the other PCs, in which case he would be a problem regardless of his alignment. I disagree. Good people actively fight evil and/or aid those in need, They generally put themselves above all others. While evil, generally care only about themselves and perhaps a select few. They would clash on many occassions. Although in some cases it's possible. A man who cares more about his friends than himself, but does horrible, even mature-forum worthy things to his enemies. Also, this ways more fun.:D
Max Octavious Xavier 06-01-07, 08:21 PM	I don't know what I'm letting myself in for, but... I was talking with one of my players for my new campaign. We thought it would be a good idea, if his character was secretly evil. So.. He will be playing a Lawful Evil character in a predominantly Chaotic Good group. Basically, we were wondering how to play this effectively, sorting out the character's aims and methods etc. (and the reason I the DM posted this, is so the other players won't read it) His aims need to be such that he is working with the party, not against them. Only, he is willing to do almost anything to accomplish the goal/mission. Nothing kills trust/fun/campaigns faster than a traitor pretending to be a friend. Ask yourself and your player, why he wants to be evil? Evil in a good party can work (unless it includes a paladin), but it is a perilous undertaking. Finally, this topic comes up every few weeks, so here are some links to posts you might find interesting. Stranger Among Them (Playing Evil!) (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=841200) PC vs PC(in and out of game) (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=841105) My group wants me out (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=830598) Using social skills against fellow party members... (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=834232) Evil PCs (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=840911) My player wants to play an antagonist (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=843790) Evil character wreaking havok with other players (http://boards1.wizards.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=12577158) Most of the advice boils down to, give the evil and good characters a solid ingame/incharacter reason to adventure together and trust each other. If he wants to play a villian/spy/psycho, just say no.
danielinthewolvesden 06-01-07, 08:37 PM	Do you have mature players? If you do, then ask them, OOC. Discuss the issue. If they are mature, they will not metagame and either say "no thanks" or "sure, sounds fun!". If you do not have mature players, such as you can not trust them not to metagame if they know, or you think they will get mad and you will lose friends- then do NOT do this. I am very (too?:P ) mature and I would be more than a tad upset if my DM did this to me. Let me explain why- we have the "unspoken rule" and that is, since D&D is a GAME and GAMES are supposed to be FUN and the only way to have fun is to PLAY (or DM, of course), we have the "unspoken rule" : "We let new guys play. We, as PC's do not vet them, we will not refuse them entry into the party." New players, if accepted by the DM, are thus accepted without reservation by the Players. This is a bit unrealistic, since often a group might well be suspicious of a new "rogue" and check him out with background checks, Detect Evil, Omen of Peril, Divination, Augery, and even higher level spells- even a Commune. But the "unspoken rule" prevents this realistic Roleplaying. And very very few things will block a Divination spell. So, in a way, doing this -SECRETLY- is cheating. You are violating the "unspoken rule". And doing so can turn around and bite both on you on your rear end. This happened in a game, where a friend and old-time gaming buddy of the DM came in with a "guest PC", and screwed the party over. Several months later, the same player wanted to join us again for a one nighter, and we said "no thanks" and he did not get to play. Very sad.:weep:
Optimized_Commoner 06-01-07, 11:34 PM	Do you have mature players? If you do, then ask them, OOC. Discuss the issue. If they are mature, they will not metagame and either say "no thanks" or "sure, sounds fun!". If you do not have mature players, such as you can not trust them not to metagame if they know, or you think they will get mad and you will lose friends- then do NOT do this. I agree with this take on it 100%. When I game with mature people, my take is: Secrets are for characters, Players gets to know what's going on. I don't play with immature people, but presumably if I did, I would keep the games simple and not have "secretly I'm a squirrel" characters.
MasonMurdoc 06-02-07, 12:00 AM	Thanks for the advice guys, but thats not what we're asking and I'm sure the rest of the group wont have a problem with it. This isn't permanent either. After a while, he would have either seen the error of his ways, or something like he challenges them to a final battle, or he leaves to join the BBEG or something else. This is what is being asked Basically, we were wondering how to play this effectively, sorting out the character's aims and methods etc.
Optimized_Commoner 06-02-07, 12:08 AM	This is what is being asked Sorry, my answer to that question is "I don't care". All in all I thought answering a different question was a little bit more helpful. But, I guess if you're not getting any answers on that. I'll give it a try... "Since he's got a DM nice enough to let him play a stupid character, his aims and methods should all be designed to work towards the improvement of the game." And that's the best I can do on that one. Guess you can see why I avoided it.
Rerecros 06-02-07, 12:21 AM	First, what is his race and class? Now it sounds to me like he is some sort of agent working for the BBEG. The easiest way to have him in the group while causing the least conflict is in a representative position. The plot hooks are provided by the BBEG and the PCs are unknowingly completing tasks for him. The "mole" is placed in the party to supervise them and to provide aid, he's sorta like middle management :P . He's a character the PCs have to work with if they expect to be paid. Now when it becomes apparent to the PCs that they are working for an organization that they deem fit to destroy, the "mole" will either try to destroy the PCs or have a Cait Sith moment and join them. As for how to play him, I see him as more of an Arnold Rimmer type Character, a cowardly bureaucrat reluctant to help unless his own skin's on the line and he draws the hatred of his peers because of it. However you could go the other way and make him extremely pleasant and useful, willing to lay his life on the line for his job which he loves. This will make the PCs more reluctant to challenge him as soon as he reveals his true motives.
Redclock_the_Untimely 06-02-07, 02:25 AM	That's a hard question to answer without more knowledge of the campaign and players. Some options have already been mentioned and others can vary widely depending on circumstance. Maybe he was ordered to work with the group to fulfill a goal the PC's are already working toward or perhaps he's the bringer of plot hooks that happen to harm the BBEG's rivals allowing him to become more powerful to the point that he is revealed to the PCs. Maybe the rogue is a low level mook on his first spy mission and has to give regular status reports. If he's not working for the BBEG, maybe he's a freelancer under contract with the group until a better offer comes along. He could also be working for an up and coming organization that is testing the party with genuinely good missions until they "prove" themselves and are put on the trail of the main bad guy. Mind you, most of these tend to be variations on a main theme, power. The rogue is either after it for himself or whoever he works for. If that means he has to join a band of stalwart adventurers to save the world just so it will be there to rule, then so be it. Good luck and I hope there's no hard feelings if in character the PC's find out the secret at just the wrong time and the good guys look the other way while the neutral guy coup de grace's him in his sleep that night. :tie:
danielinthewolvesden 06-02-07, 04:40 AM	Thanks for the advice guys, but thats not what we're asking and I'm sure the rest of the group wont have a problem with it. Have you asked them?:confused: I suggest strongly you do so. If you ask, they very likely will embrace it with gusto, and maybe even have ideas which we - not knowing your world or the other PC's- can not come up with.
MasonMurdoc 06-02-07, 10:48 AM	Have you asked them?:confused: I suggest strongly you do so. If you ask, they very likely will embrace it with gusto, and maybe even have ideas which we - not knowing your world or the other PC's- can not come up with. No, this is being kept secret. They're my friends so I'm pretty sure how they'll react. Most will love the surprise, and one will be a bit dissapointed that he couldn't being the undercover evil guy. Sorry, my answer to that question is "I don't care". All in all I thought answering a different question was a little bit more helpful. But, I guess if you're not getting any answers on that. I'll give it a try... "Since he's got a DM nice enough to let him play a stupid character, his aims and methods should all be designed to work towards the improvement of the game." And that's the best I can do on that one. Guess you can see why I avoided it. Yeah, I can see why. But being evil doesn't make it a stupid character, and If it ends up putting a downer on the game I'll get rid of him. Killed in his sleep by assassins or something. I appreciate your concern thoufg, but I don't want to give up on something without trying. First, what is his race and class? Now it sounds to me like he is some sort of agent working for the BBEG. The easiest way to have him in the group while causing the least conflict is in a representative position. The plot hooks are provided by the BBEG and the PCs are unknowingly completing tasks for him. The "mole" is placed in the party to supervise them and to provide aid, he's sorta like middle management :P . He's a character the PCs have to work with if they expect to be paid. Now when it becomes apparent to the PCs that they are working for an organization that they deem fit to destroy, the "mole" will either try to destroy the PCs or have a Cait Sith moment and join them. As for how to play him, I see him as more of an Arnold Rimmer type Character, a cowardly bureaucrat reluctant to help unless his own skin's on the line and he draws the hatred of his peers because of it. However you could go the other way and make him extremely pleasant and useful, willing to lay his life on the line for his job which he loves. This will make the PCs more reluctant to challenge him as soon as he reveals his true motives. He's a Rogue, possibly Human. I'm trying to find a different race though. One with zero Human blood. I asked my DM about working for a BBEG, but he said he'd prefer I join for my own reasons. Personality-wise, I was thinking he'd be a generally nice towards people(ranks in disguise), but would do anything to hide his true self. He'll pretend to enjoy fighting evil, but he'll be brutal and unforgiving. I may make him honerable though....but I might not. I need to work on his personality over the next week. That's a hard question to answer without more knowledge of the campaign and players. Some options have already been mentioned and others can vary widely depending on circumstance. Maybe he was ordered to work with the group to fulfill a goal the PC's are already working toward or perhaps he's the bringer of plot hooks that happen to harm the BBEG's rivals allowing him to become more powerful to the point that he is revealed to the PCs. Maybe the rogue is a low level mook on his first spy mission and has to give regular status reports. If he's not working for the BBEG, maybe he's a freelancer under contract with the group until a better offer comes along. He could also be working for an up and coming organization that is testing the party with genuinely good missions until they "prove" themselves and are put on the trail of the main bad guy. Mind you, most of these tend to be variations on a main theme, power. The rogue is either after it for himself or whoever he works for. If that means he has to join a band of stalwart adventurers to save the world just so it will be there to rule, then so be it. Good luck and I hope there's no hard feelings if in character the PC's find out the secret at just the wrong time and the good guys look the other way while the neutral guy coup de grace's him in his sleep that night. :tie: I was thinking of have him join them for his own protection, but I'd like something a bit more sinister. I have no problems with them killing him either:D By the time they find out, he'll deserve it
Max Octavious Xavier 06-02-07, 02:13 PM	This isn't permanent either. After a while, he would have either seen the error of his ways, or something like he challenges them to a final battle, or he leaves to join the BBEG or something else. ... No, this is being kept secret. They're my friends so I'm pretty sure how they'll react. Most will love the surprise, and one will be a bit dissapointed that he couldn't being the undercover evil guy. ... I was thinking of have him join them for his own protection, but I'd like something a bit more sinister. I have no problems with them killing him either:D By the time they find out, he'll deserve it I find "but I'd like something a bit more sinister" and "By the time they find out, he'll deserve it" to be red flags. Are you sure they "will love the surprise" or is it just wishful thinking on your part? You know your friends better than any of us, but betrayal (even in a game) is a hard pill to swallow. I would suggest the "After a while, he would have either seen the error of his ways" idea.
Nall_The_Azure_Guardian 06-02-07, 05:35 PM	I actually did this a while back. My teams mage indirectly killed my rouge (we thought I could make the save) but she got burned to a crisp. DM decided I could roll up a new character, and I remade a more meele oriented rouge. DM and I have been friends for years ( he's the one who taught me DnD) and he and i were talking about various forms for the BBEGs to take, there were going to be 7 of them to hunt down biased on the seven deadly sins after a lot of joking and talking, we decided that this campaign would end after the Seven were dead, we often do several short games to restart and keep our levels low and alternate between a few DMs. The initial reaction was WTF, but everybody laughed, especially the fact that several things I did now made sense. I was actively failing disable device or search rolls (Its an online game and I IMed the dm when i wanted to fail and then rolled as if i were trying), since i'd boosted my relfex save up as high as i could I never got hurt but damn if I didn't anger the fighter. I had failed to set off about 8 traps in an enemy keep and no one really got suspicious. The party had been working for the disguised BBEG the entire time, helping him eliminate his co-workers. He introduced my evil rouge into the party as a replacement for the friend he'd lost. I had my own evil reasons for doing what I was doing, and I made sure to establish the fact that I was an outsider in the group. NOW this in and of itself can be dangerous and I wouldn't recommend it with new players or in the presence of a pali. I'd go so far as to charge members of my "party" if i had to use my potions to keep them from dying. I'd say the real trick to doing an evil char secretly or even a betrayal is that he should keep to himself as much as possible. I talked about the game for about an hour afterwards with said mage, who was a little agitated that I'd taken him out ASAP in combat, I explained to him that this had been a long plan as the end of the game for a while now, and that we would start another game after a short break (finals were coming up thus the TPK). I then continued to explain that I wasn't picking on him, I was scared of him. Pride (my char) had reasoned that if he can drop the mage he could atleast hold his own against the barbie and fighter with a little help from the main BBEG. It wasn't that I was picking on him, it was that I'd recognized just how strong he was and I had to fight accordingly. He was actually very pleased with the fact that I can considered him a major threat. We all still play and this time I'm a pali, as if to prove that there will be no betrayals Then again, everyone I play with is in college and I think everyone is atleast 20 and most of the players have been playing for 4+ years. I wouldn't recommend an evil or hidden party member its hard to cordinate. It depends on the players, the fact that you think your players can do something as complex as a hidden enemy makes me think that they can. Good luck
Balseraph 06-02-07, 06:15 PM	I don't see why his goals (or the methods used to attain them) should be any different just because he happens to be evil. He doesn't have to be a crazy, baby-killing psychopath to be evil. All it takes, in my opinion, is the desire to put yourself before others and a certain willingness to use means that others would not. Remember, alignment should be based on action, not the other way around. Also, not all evil is equal. One CE person might be a psychopath who murders without reason, while another CE might just be a bully with little regard for authority. Likewise one LE fellow might be bent on world domination, while another may be a petty-minded bureaucract who delights in making life difficult through a strict adherence to the rules and regulations that he loves. There, good people, is my two cents.
MasonMurdoc 06-04-07, 02:17 PM	I've chosen most of his skills: Bluff Diplomacy Disguise Gather Information Intimidate Knowledge (Local) Sense Motive Use Magic device I have 4 more skill points that I haven't decided where to put them yet I know he doesn't have o be a Psyco, and I have no intentions of him being one. But I want him Evil, and by that I mean he has no problem killing someone to get what he wants and sometimes enjoys it.
MasonMurdoc 06-04-07, 02:24 PM	I've had this problem and your first issue is going to be players who detect evil every chance they get. My DM gave me a magic item that made it so my alignment was undetectable. Other than that just make sure the player keeps his mouth shut about it, I managed to actually switch from Lawful Evil to Lawful good 4 months into a weekly game and no one figured out I was evil. Although in the beginning I almost got caught slitting a fallen enemies throat before he told the party he knew who I was. While playing, how did you let the DM know what you were doing without the other players hearing? My DM suggested I take notes, an write down what I'm doing on paper,while sitting next to him.
High Octane 06-04-07, 05:28 PM	It can work if: The characters dont use detection spells often or the LE guy has spells to block such things. AND ALL of your players are mature, intelligent individuals and understand roleplaying well. AND The player playing the evil guy plays him as lawful evil, not Stupid Evil. If you have the slightest doubt in your mind, DON'T DO IT! If you don't know each and every one of your players well enough to know there will not be any issues, DON'T DO IT! This is a volatile situation that could end in great roleplaying and intrigue, or tears. It's a lot like handling uranium.
MasonMurdoc 06-04-07, 05:44 PM	The player playing the evil guy plays him as lawful evil, not Stupid Evil. . I'm pretty sure I can avoid being stupid evil, but for saftey sakes could you sate a fw things that make stupid evil?
danielinthewolvesden 06-05-07, 04:20 AM	It can work if: The characters dont use detection spells often or the LE guy has spells to block such things. AND ALL of your players are mature, intelligent individuals and understand roleplaying well. AND The player playing the evil guy plays him as lawful evil, not Stupid Evil. If you have the slightest doubt in your mind, DON'T DO IT! If you don't know each and every one of your players well enough to know there will not be any issues, DON'T DO IT! This is a volatile situation that could end in great roleplaying and intrigue, or tears. It's a lot like handling uranium. You are correct, except that: 1. no spell can block Divination or Commune. And, since it is a PC, and there's the "unspoken rule" the Players are not expected to check out the new PC first. 2. If they are mature enough to handle it, they are mature enough to be trusted not to metagame and thus can be brought into the idea. Thus either they ARE mature thus you discuss it, or they are NOT mature so you do not do it. 3. And even if it does not completely explode, expcte hours and hours of valauable table-time be wasted in every game after this by the PC's carefully doing background checks on any new PC's. Fun.:weep: Let me say this more bluntly. It is IMHO a form of CHEATING. You are violating the "unspoken rule." This sort of thing is only OK IF: the DM discusses it with all the players 1st. OR if the DM asks them "Are you doing any sort of background check on the new guy before you accept him blindly?"
The_Ditto 06-05-07, 09:38 AM	and one will be a bit dissapointed that he couldn't being the undercover evil guy. Give him something "secret" for himself then ... off to the side ... a "secret" intelligent magic item ... You: "Hey, you know that +1 dagger you found last week?" PC: "Yeah?" You: "It's talking to you .." PC: :uh-huh:
MasonMurdoc 06-06-07, 07:39 AM	Give him something "secret" for himself then ... off to the side ... a "secret" intelligent magic item ... You: "Hey, you know that +1 dagger you found last week?" PC: "Yeah?" You: "It's talking to you .." PC: :uh-huh: That'd be awesome TimelordSimone said I couldn't be evil, so you can all let this die now:)
Voran 06-06-07, 09:41 PM	Hey man, even Dr. Doom can work with the Fantastic Four from time to time. :)
Pyro_Azer 06-06-07, 09:47 PM	Your focussing on being a silver-tounge deceiver so convince the rest of the party there is nothing wrong with being evil.