Decent Acting NE Alignment? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Decent Acting NE Alignment? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Mordy
12-14-07, 05:22 PM I have a neutral evil cleric of Vecna. The spin is that I've found a way to accommodate her presence in a party of all-good characters. Her evilness manifests in her willingness to do anything to achieve her goals. For example: Vecna demands that she kill a child? No problem.

But as long as it doesn't affect her personal mission, she is fine, decent and maybe even good. The party needs to save a maiden, and it doesn't conflict with Vecna's will? She's happy to help. And if she needs to do something good to achieve Vecna's will (like help someone to acquire an artifact), she's willing to do it.

Now it's likely that what I'm described is a true neutral, but the fact remains that in real life, someone who is willing to kill an innocent to get the job done is considered evil. So while my cleric might be willing to do good or evil, as long as it gets the job done, that kind of person we'd still consider evil.

So my question is:
Is my character, within the guidelines of DnD, really NE? Or does her alignment need to shift? (And a side note: As her entire alignment is defined by her devotion to an evil god, and if she became TN she would no longer be able to worship that god, does that change matters a bit?)

[Oh! And I realize alignment threads are contentious and opinion-based. So I'm just looking for some opinions. I doubt there's a definite ruling here.]
toucanbuzz
12-14-07, 05:37 PM My two cents. :twocents:

NE is the most mercenary of all alignments and is reserved for those truly selfish individuals who have no other loyalty other than to themselves and no other need to aid another unless it aids themselves. Why would she save a maiden? If she's done the acts necessary to be NE, she sure as hell isn't going to stick her neck out for some peasant unless there's coins jingling nearby.

And though good may be accomplished, don't mistake that for alignment. Alignment is your perception of how your actions affect the world and guide how you take your actions. Doing inadvertant good deeds does not make one good, neutral, or otherwise.

Having it in your heart to kill innocent children is always going to mark you as evil, no matter how many "good" deeds you do. It isn't a balance that can be weighed by good deeds on one side and bad ones on the other. The one evil act you propose will always weigh it to evil.

With that said, this is why I don't let evil characters in my campaigns. Ignoring the fact my players wouldn't make baby-killers in the first place, it's just not cool.
Mordy
12-14-07, 05:53 PM Well, as my DM is puppeting the deity, I have no doubt my character will never be commanded to kill a child. I was really just giving that example as the length to which the character would be willing to go. (I'm not sure the player, ie: Me, would be as willing to puppet that kind of action.)

My concept was a character who was into uncovering divine secrets (as Vecna is), and dabbles in necromancy (which would likely fall under the evil category). It's one of the problems I have with alignment in general. The character has more depth than a simple alignment can quantify. If she was ACTUALLY commanded to kill a child, it would likely be a far more complex decision. But if someone were to theoretically ask her what she'd do for her god, she'd probably say 'anything.'
CryoSilver
12-14-07, 06:39 PM The very fact that your character has chosen to serve Vecna, an Evil god, not merely as a follower, but as a cleric and leader of the religion of said, means that she is evil.

If you voluntarily join an evil organization and take responsibility for leading that evil organization, you are evil, plain and simple. A priest of Vecna's religion, a member of Al Qaeda, a Thrall of Demogorgon, a Nazi: any of these people can give all the money they want to charity, but they will always be evil.

That your character is unscrupulous and has no inherent respect for sentient life is just the icing on the cake.
Amon_V
12-15-07, 03:17 AM Sorry. Going to have to quickly remind the other posters that Vecna accepts true neutral clerics--these tend to believe that knowledge is power and therefore it should be controlled judiciously.

Vecna isn't a lunatic deity known for idiotic, short-sighted gain. He's a mastermind plotter, and would probably expect the cleric to act for years, not for minutes.

Above all else, Vecna is going to be the master of driving hard bargains and exploiting secrets and knowledge. A wonky move to kill a child just for giggles never happens.
Etarnon
12-15-07, 10:35 AM Neutral, tending towards evil.

Kill another kid, and you're there.
CryoSilver
12-15-07, 10:40 AM Sorry. Going to have to quickly remind the other posters that Vecna accepts true neutral clerics--these tend to believe that knowledge is power and therefore it should be controlled judiciously.
[citation needed]

Under normal circumstances, clerics may only be true neutral if their deity is true neutral. Where is it noted that Vecna is an exception to the rule?
Tovec
12-15-07, 03:09 PM Why does she worship Vecna? Why would she be evil? Yes I got the whole willing to kill a child but why? Is she assisting the party because the party can get her stuff or is she just doing it to help them? If its the later then I'd say she's N and should not be a cleric of Vecna.
Cedric_the_Lucky
12-15-07, 04:06 PM I have played a NE rogue/cleric in a good group, the only motivation I had was I was increasing in power the more stuff and adventures we went on. I wasn't in it to save innocents or stop evil like the rest of them I was more into the loot and power I was getting. You can do good acts and be evil as long as your personal motivation is for yourself rather than the people you are helping.
Voran
12-15-07, 05:28 PM NE? Think 'sorority head cheerleader paris hilton girl."
tyrandor
12-16-07, 01:22 PM Good thread, makes me wonder if my own alignment is the proper one.

My character wish to return his people to their former glory, by any mean necessary (Their glory years have long passed and their 'empire' is little more then a backwater country now - homemade setting and all). He's willing to do it by any mean necessary... and while he's not out to harm others specifically (He'd much rather make his people great again without hurting anyone...), if that is what it takes, that is what he will do (... but he realizes the odds of that are pretty damn slim).

If it came down to killing someone who's only crime was to be standing in the way of his goal... he'd try to find another solution, but if it ended being the only way, he would do it (probably with a heavy heart, but still).

That being said, during our first game (First game was designed to make us understand the rules, group dynamics and get a better grip of our character, the DM let/made us make adjustment to our characters after it) there was a situation where people were in distress, and they could offer no reward. We were given a real easy choice - help or not. Risking our lives for stranger, or carry on with our journey. And the character felt it was simply wrong not to help when they were there and had the mean to do so.

For this, I made him Neutral.

While he love his country and believe in its greatness... he doesn't care much for rules and he's more then willing to break rules and laws. In fact, he broke direct orders to even get out of his country and go adventuring.

Ultimately he is a romantic, dreaming of the Empire he read in story books as a kid... but ironically, he wouldn't have fit in back then, due to him being a rebel at his core. So he's fighting to bring something that he's idealizing, and it's going to be interesting to see if he realizes that or not at some point.

For this, I made him Chaotic.

Comments?
CryoSilver
12-16-07, 01:31 PM If your character fees bad about killing someone, he's probably not Evil.
Prator_The_Golden
12-16-07, 01:45 PM If your character fees bad about killing someone, he's probably not Evil.
Agreed. If they kill and then rationalize the action afterwards without feeling particularly guilty, that's evil. Killing and enjoying it is also evil. Not wanting to kill and not liking it when it happens? Not so much.

By the standard you've given, CN sounds about right, with emphasis on Neutral. Your average purely chaotic person tends not to care about Causes much.

But I digress. Going back to the cleric of Vecna, I think it can go one of two ways:

1. True Neutral should work. That's only one step away from Vecna's own alignment, so by the RAW that should be acceptable. If you play your guy as a person devoted to his god's work, but not particularly bad personally, then you're neutral, plain and simple.

In this way, you are like a true believer who simply hasn't been tested yet. Vecna willing, you never will be, but for the sake of the Master of Secrets, you will do whatever you must.

2. Neutral Evil works if you emphasize duty to god in a slightly different way. Rather like a Nazi emphasizing the glories of the Master Race in everything he does, even when he isn't conquering or killing other people, your cleric can be subtly elitist in his treatment of other people, particularly people of other faiths. Also, he's willing to do whatever he has to in order to advance Vecna's will, but does not actively go around strangling orphans with kitten guts because
A: That's not necessarily Vecna's will, and
B: It's not particularly profitable anyway, given how much effort it would take.

In this way, you are evil more in terms of attitude than action, primarily because the necessity for Evil-In-Action hasn't come up yet. It's not that you can't, or that you don't sometimes want to, but there hasn't been any good reason up until now.
CryoSilver
12-16-07, 02:13 PM 1. True Neutral should work. That's only one step away from Vecna's own alignment, so by the RAW that should be acceptable. If you play your guy as a person devoted to his god's work, but not particularly bad personally, then you're neutral, plain and simple.

[citation needed]

Under normal circumstances, clerics may only be true neutral if their deity is true neutral. Where is it noted that Vecna is an exception to the rule?
tyrandor
12-16-07, 02:15 PM So I'm right in assuming Neutral, because while he wouldn't enjoy killing an innocent and would most likely feel remorse, he'd still be willing to do it?
Prator_The_Golden
12-16-07, 02:21 PM @Cryosilver:

Under normal circumstances, clerics may only be true neutral if their deity is true neutral. Where is it noted that Vecna is an exception to the rule?
*Digs out player's handbook and checks*

...Nowhere. But frankly, it doesn't make any sense to me that Vecna will take crazy murderous psychos (CE) and self-serving power-hungry tyrants (LE), but not people who just live and do as they're told (N). This is something I would houserule without thinking twice.

@Tyrandor:
Yep, pretty much.
metalmayhem80110
12-17-07, 04:53 AM Ummm, why wouldn't Vecna take some crazy, murdering, fanatic, follower? I don't know why that is even being debated...

I'm not saying the Vecna will care for this follower like a child. Honestly, this follower will probably be used like a tool to protect some sane follower.

Have none of you ever heard of meat shields?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mordy 12-14-07, 05:22 PM	I have a neutral evil cleric of Vecna. The spin is that I've found a way to accommodate her presence in a party of all-good characters. Her evilness manifests in her willingness to do anything to achieve her goals. For example: Vecna demands that she kill a child? No problem. But as long as it doesn't affect her personal mission, she is fine, decent and maybe even good. The party needs to save a maiden, and it doesn't conflict with Vecna's will? She's happy to help. And if she needs to do something good to achieve Vecna's will (like help someone to acquire an artifact), she's willing to do it. Now it's likely that what I'm described is a true neutral, but the fact remains that in real life, someone who is willing to kill an innocent to get the job done is considered evil. So while my cleric might be willing to do good or evil, as long as it gets the job done, that kind of person we'd still consider evil. So my question is: Is my character, within the guidelines of DnD, really NE? Or does her alignment need to shift? (And a side note: As her entire alignment is defined by her devotion to an evil god, and if she became TN she would no longer be able to worship that god, does that change matters a bit?) [Oh! And I realize alignment threads are contentious and opinion-based. So I'm just looking for some opinions. I doubt there's a definite ruling here.]
toucanbuzz 12-14-07, 05:37 PM	My two cents. :twocents: NE is the most mercenary of all alignments and is reserved for those truly selfish individuals who have no other loyalty other than to themselves and no other need to aid another unless it aids themselves. Why would she save a maiden? If she's done the acts necessary to be NE, she sure as hell isn't going to stick her neck out for some peasant unless there's coins jingling nearby. And though good may be accomplished, don't mistake that for alignment. Alignment is your perception of how your actions affect the world and guide how you take your actions. Doing inadvertant good deeds does not make one good, neutral, or otherwise. Having it in your heart to kill innocent children is always going to mark you as evil, no matter how many "good" deeds you do. It isn't a balance that can be weighed by good deeds on one side and bad ones on the other. The one evil act you propose will always weigh it to evil. With that said, this is why I don't let evil characters in my campaigns. Ignoring the fact my players wouldn't make baby-killers in the first place, it's just not cool.
Mordy 12-14-07, 05:53 PM	Well, as my DM is puppeting the deity, I have no doubt my character will never be commanded to kill a child. I was really just giving that example as the length to which the character would be willing to go. (I'm not sure the player, ie: Me, would be as willing to puppet that kind of action.) My concept was a character who was into uncovering divine secrets (as Vecna is), and dabbles in necromancy (which would likely fall under the evil category). It's one of the problems I have with alignment in general. The character has more depth than a simple alignment can quantify. If she was ACTUALLY commanded to kill a child, it would likely be a far more complex decision. But if someone were to theoretically ask her what she'd do for her god, she'd probably say 'anything.'
CryoSilver 12-14-07, 06:39 PM	The very fact that your character has chosen to serve Vecna, an Evil god, not merely as a follower, but as a cleric and leader of the religion of said, means that she is evil. If you voluntarily join an evil organization and take responsibility for leading that evil organization, you are evil, plain and simple. A priest of Vecna's religion, a member of Al Qaeda, a Thrall of Demogorgon, a Nazi: any of these people can give all the money they want to charity, but they will always be evil. That your character is unscrupulous and has no inherent respect for sentient life is just the icing on the cake.
Amon_V 12-15-07, 03:17 AM	Sorry. Going to have to quickly remind the other posters that Vecna accepts true neutral clerics--these tend to believe that knowledge is power and therefore it should be controlled judiciously. Vecna isn't a lunatic deity known for idiotic, short-sighted gain. He's a mastermind plotter, and would probably expect the cleric to act for years, not for minutes. Above all else, Vecna is going to be the master of driving hard bargains and exploiting secrets and knowledge. A wonky move to kill a child just for giggles never happens.
Etarnon 12-15-07, 10:35 AM	Neutral, tending towards evil. Kill another kid, and you're there.
CryoSilver 12-15-07, 10:40 AM	Sorry. Going to have to quickly remind the other posters that Vecna accepts true neutral clerics--these tend to believe that knowledge is power and therefore it should be controlled judiciously. [citation needed] Under normal circumstances, clerics may only be true neutral if their deity is true neutral. Where is it noted that Vecna is an exception to the rule?
Tovec 12-15-07, 03:09 PM	Why does she worship Vecna? Why would she be evil? Yes I got the whole willing to kill a child but why? Is she assisting the party because the party can get her stuff or is she just doing it to help them? If its the later then I'd say she's N and should not be a cleric of Vecna.
Cedric_the_Lucky 12-15-07, 04:06 PM	I have played a NE rogue/cleric in a good group, the only motivation I had was I was increasing in power the more stuff and adventures we went on. I wasn't in it to save innocents or stop evil like the rest of them I was more into the loot and power I was getting. You can do good acts and be evil as long as your personal motivation is for yourself rather than the people you are helping.
Voran 12-15-07, 05:28 PM	NE? Think 'sorority head cheerleader paris hilton girl."
tyrandor 12-16-07, 01:22 PM	Good thread, makes me wonder if my own alignment is the proper one. My character wish to return his people to their former glory, by any mean necessary (Their glory years have long passed and their 'empire' is little more then a backwater country now - homemade setting and all). He's willing to do it by any mean necessary... and while he's not out to harm others specifically (He'd much rather make his people great again without hurting anyone...), if that is what it takes, that is what he will do (... but he realizes the odds of that are pretty damn slim). If it came down to killing someone who's only crime was to be standing in the way of his goal... he'd try to find another solution, but if it ended being the only way, he would do it (probably with a heavy heart, but still). That being said, during our first game (First game was designed to make us understand the rules, group dynamics and get a better grip of our character, the DM let/made us make adjustment to our characters after it) there was a situation where people were in distress, and they could offer no reward. We were given a real easy choice - help or not. Risking our lives for stranger, or carry on with our journey. And the character felt it was simply wrong not to help when they were there and had the mean to do so. For this, I made him Neutral. While he love his country and believe in its greatness... he doesn't care much for rules and he's more then willing to break rules and laws. In fact, he broke direct orders to even get out of his country and go adventuring. Ultimately he is a romantic, dreaming of the Empire he read in story books as a kid... but ironically, he wouldn't have fit in back then, due to him being a rebel at his core. So he's fighting to bring something that he's idealizing, and it's going to be interesting to see if he realizes that or not at some point. For this, I made him Chaotic. Comments?
CryoSilver 12-16-07, 01:31 PM	If your character fees bad about killing someone, he's probably not Evil.
Prator_The_Golden 12-16-07, 01:45 PM	If your character fees bad about killing someone, he's probably not Evil. Agreed. If they kill and then rationalize the action afterwards without feeling particularly guilty, that's evil. Killing and enjoying it is also evil. Not wanting to kill and not liking it when it happens? Not so much. By the standard you've given, CN sounds about right, with emphasis on Neutral. Your average purely chaotic person tends not to care about Causes much. But I digress. Going back to the cleric of Vecna, I think it can go one of two ways: 1. True Neutral should work. That's only one step away from Vecna's own alignment, so by the RAW that should be acceptable. If you play your guy as a person devoted to his god's work, but not particularly bad personally, then you're neutral, plain and simple. In this way, you are like a true believer who simply hasn't been tested yet. Vecna willing, you never will be, but for the sake of the Master of Secrets, you will do whatever you must. 2. Neutral Evil works if you emphasize duty to god in a slightly different way. Rather like a Nazi emphasizing the glories of the Master Race in everything he does, even when he isn't conquering or killing other people, your cleric can be subtly elitist in his treatment of other people, particularly people of other faiths. Also, he's willing to do whatever he has to in order to advance Vecna's will, but does not actively go around strangling orphans with kitten guts because A: That's not necessarily Vecna's will, and B: It's not particularly profitable anyway, given how much effort it would take. In this way, you are evil more in terms of attitude than action, primarily because the necessity for Evil-In-Action hasn't come up yet. It's not that you can't, or that you don't sometimes want to, but there hasn't been any good reason up until now.
CryoSilver 12-16-07, 02:13 PM	1. True Neutral should work. That's only one step away from Vecna's own alignment, so by the RAW that should be acceptable. If you play your guy as a person devoted to his god's work, but not particularly bad personally, then you're neutral, plain and simple. [citation needed] Under normal circumstances, clerics may only be true neutral if their deity is true neutral. Where is it noted that Vecna is an exception to the rule?
tyrandor 12-16-07, 02:15 PM	So I'm right in assuming Neutral, because while he wouldn't enjoy killing an innocent and would most likely feel remorse, he'd still be willing to do it?
Prator_The_Golden 12-16-07, 02:21 PM	@Cryosilver: Under normal circumstances, clerics may only be true neutral if their deity is true neutral. Where is it noted that Vecna is an exception to the rule? Digs out player's handbook and checks ...Nowhere. But frankly, it doesn't make any sense to me that Vecna will take crazy murderous psychos (CE) and self-serving power-hungry tyrants (LE), but not people who just live and do as they're told (N). This is something I would houserule without thinking twice. @Tyrandor: Yep, pretty much.
metalmayhem80110 12-17-07, 04:53 AM	Ummm, why wouldn't Vecna take some crazy, murdering, fanatic, follower? I don't know why that is even being debated... I'm not saying the Vecna will care for this follower like a child. Honestly, this follower will probably be used like a tool to protect some sane follower. Have none of you ever heard of meat shields?