Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sareld 03-02-07, 07:44 AM	A character of mine is about to complete a quest for an old wizard, who has offered the party a pick in his deck of many things as a reward. My character however, is having second thoughts about this, and considers to decline the card or sell his card to another party member. They all seems hyped about what they can get from it, but IRC there are some pretty hefty catches if you draw the wrong cards. Would your character draw a card? And what kind of results can I enspect from doing so? I will be a level 8-9 druid by the time I get to draw, if that is of any relevance.
Need_A_Life 03-02-07, 08:03 AM	Yes. Definitely. Multiple times.
Bedevere 03-02-07, 08:11 AM	My experience with the DoMT is ALWAYS bad. I once had a god offer me a draw from the deck, with ONLY good cards counting. Any bad cards drawn simply didnt actually happen. I drew EVERY bad card, before getting a good one. :) Seriously, the benefits do not equal the risks, until you are so high level that the benefits are nowhere near as good as they seemed at lower levels. You MIGHT get lucky, and get four wishes. You also might end up with your body imprisoned, your soul held prisoner by a deity, permanent stat loss, level loss, and everything you own forever lost. This said, I can get around that last bit, at least. Before you draw, make the following agreement with someone you trust. "I hereby grant you ownership of all my property, on the understanding that you sell or give away none of it, make no use of items with limited uses, and return ownership to me at any time I choose in the future." If you draw the 'lose all material wealth' card, then you have none. even the clothes you are wearing are borrowed from your friend, technically. :)
Findail 03-02-07, 08:15 AM	I think the risks outweigh the benefits, especially for a high-level character. At 1st, the benefits are more attractive, and you haven't grown so attached to your character (if the worst happens).
UAMDB 03-02-07, 09:00 AM	This said, I can get around that last bit, at least. Before you draw, make the following agreement with someone you trust. "I hereby grant you ownership of all my property, on the understanding that you sell or give away none of it, make no use of items with limited uses, and return ownership to me at any time I choose in the future." If you draw the 'lose all material wealth' card, then you have none. even the clothes you are wearing are borrowed from your friend, technically. :) From a legal stand point this might not work. Since you are "giving" all of your stuff to a friend, then said friend should have all right to said stuff. this would include the right to sale, or use. Since you have applied a stipulation that said friend could not use, sale, and must return said items to you at your request, you really have not given over posession of said items. Therefor, said items would be affected by the cards that you draw. Nice idea though. Did I mention that I'm a rules lawyer. :)
Wayside 03-02-07, 11:40 AM	Only if my character is chaotic. (and then definetely)
Kursk 03-02-07, 12:38 PM	From a legal stand point this might not work. Since you are "giving" all of your stuff to a friend, then said friend should have all right to said stuff. this would include the right to sale, or use. Since you have applied a stipulation that said friend could not use, sale, and must return said items to you at your request, you really have not given over posession of said items. Therefor, said items would be affected by the cards that you draw. Nice idea though. Did I mention that I'm a rules lawyer. :) If you were DMing I'd say this ruling would be correct.
risner 03-02-07, 12:39 PM	Always At least 4 to 6 cards.
RuckusFox 03-02-07, 12:39 PM	I never draw...I would most definately sell my draw to someone else. We had a scenario like this. I gave up my draw to someone else. It cost them the 10,000 EXP failure. =3 Owch.
IceFractal 03-02-07, 01:03 PM	If you're an Enchanter, or otherwise have access to unthinkingly loyal minions, then the Deck is perfectly safe ... for your minions to draw from. * Fates - Have them stick close to you, and hope that avoiding the situation includes you avoiding it as well. * Gem, Key, Sun, Throne - You take the stuff the card gave them. * Knight - Have them order the knight to protect you. * Moon - They make the wishes on your behalf. * Vizier - Like with the fates, keep them nearby and ask them the answer when you need it.
Sakaki22 03-02-07, 01:16 PM	In both of the campaigns where I have had the option to draw from the DoMT, I have done it, always drawn two cards, and walked away from it a winner. Alternatively, my friend has drawn one card each in both of those campaigns, died once, and almost got killed the second time.
Bedevere 03-02-07, 02:07 PM	From a legal stand point this might not work. Since you are "giving" all of your stuff to a friend, then said friend should have all right to said stuff. this would include the right to sale, or use. Since you have applied a stipulation that said friend could not use, sale, and must return said items to you at your request, you really have not given over posession of said items. Therefor, said items would be affected by the cards that you draw. Nice idea though. Did I mention that I'm a rules lawyer. :) I'm a rules lawyer too. I've had three rules lawyer DM's accept my contract, as well. The key factor to it lies in the precise wording. I may have lost a bit in condensing it for ease of reading without noticing. They have ownership, in the same way a landlord has ownership of a house. The tenant might have an awful lot of rights, and the landlord (in some countries, mine included) doesnt even have right of free access to his own property, without at least 24 hours warning. Sure, its blatant abuse of the precise wording, to get around the spirit of the effect. That's what rules lawyers do. :) Oh, and No, I'd never let someone get away with it in a game I ran. :D
mcnoo 03-02-07, 02:08 PM	My drow rogue ran into one of these beauties. I turned the entire thing over in one movement and used the benefit from the fates card to alter history to make it as though I had never turned the deck over. I was just curious to see if I could make a catastrophic paradox and destroy time. Low wisdom evil is entertaining. Unsurprisingly, that character spent a large amount of time being chased by inevitables.
Demon Lightfoot 03-02-07, 02:50 PM	Hell yes. I'd draw as many as possible.
bob_the_great 03-02-07, 02:54 PM	nope. i never draw from it. the benefits are simply good while the penalties are often horrible. it doesn't help that my characters tend to be intelligent and not risk-takers.
Sathery 03-02-07, 02:56 PM	The game in which I'm a PC, I've drawn from it. Came up with the +6 on Diplomacy and a small keep. That was wonderful! "Hey, look at that place, I'll call it home!" Friend of mine pulled the Wish card. Oh man! Talk about money money money. That was super nice. Finally got to get out of that damned studded leather. Full plate, here I come!
Skeetweasel 03-02-07, 03:19 PM	A character of mine is about to complete a quest for an old wizard, who has offered the party a pick in his deck of many things as a reward. My character however, is having second thoughts about this, and considers to decline the card or sell his card to another party member. They all seems hyped about what they can get from it, but IRC there are some pretty hefty catches if you draw the wrong cards. Would your character draw a card? And what kind of results can I enspect from doing so? I will be a level 8-9 druid by the time I get to draw, if that is of any relevance. Would your character draw a card? Why not? Has the wizard explained every card? Or even that it could be bad? Does he have a list of all the cards and what they do or did your character's player, you, look them up in the DMG? If your character knows the consequences maybe not, especially a wise druid.
Light_Colonel 03-02-07, 03:25 PM	Up to 10th level I always draw if there is a chance to. There is pretty much no reason not to unless your character wouldn't. But honestly any adventurer who does what he does for a living will draw almost every time. Big risks and big rewards. If you are still having doubts, try using this: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060614a It's an online generator for the DoMT.
ZiggZagg 03-02-07, 03:30 PM	It depends. Does your character not what is to gain and lose from it. This is a perfect example of metagaming. Unless that wizard told you all about it and that you could potentially get killed, I don't think your character has any right to refuse drawing
Bedevere 03-02-07, 03:57 PM	Saying your character wouldn't know to not draw is one thing. The DM putting this in, and having you die from the adventure 'reward' is another. It's your character. If losing it to something TOTALLY beyond your control would upset you, dont draw. If you don't mind the risk, compared to the chance of quite reasonable payoffs if you get lucky, then go for it.
Alder_Fiter_Galaz 03-02-07, 04:00 PM	Sure. As previously said, a character can not know the effects of the deck unless a wizard or similar knowdelgable character tolds it to him or her first. If a character known maybe he or she never draws. Anyway, even if you are metagaming is a good idea to draw. If your character gets a very bad result it is probably equals the making of a new char. Only if you are deeply in love with your character I recommend not to draw. But that is IMHO bad roleplaying if your character do not know the effects of the deck.
Willie the Duck 03-02-07, 05:02 PM	From a metagaming perspective, people generally say go for it. The dominant logic seems to be, "If I win, I win big. If I lose, 4d6 drop the lowest, six times." In your case, however, it sounds like you actually like your character a fair bit (plus you said would the CHARACTER do it). Friend of mine got to draw, first draw he got a wish, and wished that the rest of his draws would also be red cards (the beneficial ones). DM was a couple weeks from ending the campaign anyway, so he let it work. MMM Cheesy:D
Prator_the_Legendary 03-02-07, 06:58 PM	I'll draw. I don't have a plan, and my luck isn't particularly good, but I'm just stupid that way.
Kevtar 03-02-07, 07:04 PM	I DM for my sons and their teenage friends. None of their friends played D&D until they met my boys last year. So, I decided to bring out a deck of cards and allow a couple of draws - just for fun. The groups druid - a Kender named "Kybo" draws the wish card. He saved it for a VERY long time. Then, a few levels later, he whips it out of nowhere and says.., "I wish I was silver." (meaning a gleaming, metallic silver sheen from head to toe.) Now, he's the silver-surfer version of a kender druid. That was #1 THEN, he wishes that Auron, the party Wizard would be turned into a purple platypus. An argument (and almost physical fight broke out) and I determined that Kybo could wish that Auron was Baleful Polymorphed into a platypus. However, Auron rolled a 20 on his save and the wish was spent. Finally, for the third wish, Kybo wished for a hippogriff mount. Bizarre. (Incidentally, Auron has "Presto's Hat" from the D&D Cartoon Handbook and, since it emulates a rod of wonders, was inadvertantly colored purple - permanently, no save.) Serendipity or fate - you be the judge! ;)
DyloniusFunk 03-02-07, 07:27 PM	No. Never. The DOMT was made for a DM to be able to frell over players with complete denability. If the DM wants to kill me, then he should be up front about it and throw my character against something 10 levels or more above my own, so at least i have a slight chance of survival. With the Deck you pull one card, you die and the DM can say he had nothing to do with it.
mcnoo 03-02-07, 08:52 PM	Should he take the money, or should he gamble? *the audience starts chanting "gamble, gamble"* We'll be right back after these messages.
twad 03-02-07, 09:52 PM	If im correct, the chances of getting something good or bad are about 50/50. And every choice have a big impact potential. So.. Do you feel lucky? It could be the chance of your life... Or end it right here, messily.
Edymnion 03-02-07, 10:48 PM	You do realize that almost everyone in this thread is actively trying to get your character killed, maimed, or otherwise rendered unplayable and ruin your game, right? The Deck of Many Things isn't known as the Campaign Killer for nothing. The only time you should draw blind from the DoMT is if you are in a pure hack and slash game where you don't give a damn what happens to the character, because you have a half dozen backups ready to go. You *NEVER* have a character you want to continue playing draw blind from the DoMT. Never. The *ONLY* time that drawing from the deck is acceptable is when you know how to neuter it to give you nothing but good cards, which is just a second level divine spell away. Of course, if your character cannot personally cast second level cleric spells, then you should never draw from the deck, period.
jeffseadot 03-02-07, 11:10 PM	I suggest taking a lot of cards for all the wrong reasons. In all of my experiences with the deck (both DMing for it and drawing from it), the DM will find some way to save the player from a character-ending fate. At the very least, he allows a player to keep going until they get a wish card, so as to save the other player (not technically in the rules, but again, the DM does anything that could vaguely make sense to save the player). With the biggest threats gone, all a player has to worry about is a minor penalty to something or the loss of all possessions (of which there are few anyway). All of a sudden it becomes well worth the risk.
lancean 03-02-07, 11:52 PM	If im correct, the chances of getting something good or bad are about 50/50. Actually, the breakdown goes like this. There are 22 cards... 8 cards are Good (stuff, XP, followers, wishes...) 3 cards are fairly good (know an answer, avoid a situation...) 6 cards are Inconvenient (permanent penalty, lose stuff, lose a friend..) 3 cards are bad (fight for your life, lose INT, lose all magic items) 2 cards will end your character immediately So the payoff is kind of small, really. Yes, you can get good stuff, however, there are 3 cards that will wreck a campaign. 2 instantly and nearly permanently kill off your character (and by the time you could fix them, the payoff from drawing from the deck is not worth it), and one of them gives your character 50,000 xp. Why is that one bad? You try DM'ing a group with four 5th level characters and one 11th level character...
jeffseadot 03-03-07, 12:01 AM	Actually, the breakdown goes like this. There are 22 cards... 8 cards are Good (stuff, XP, followers, wishes...) 3 cards are fairly good (know an answer, avoid a situation...) 6 cards are Inconvenient (permanent penalty, lose stuff, lose a friend..) 3 cards are bad (fight for your life, lose INT, lose all magic items) 2 cards will end your character immediately So the payoff is kind of small, really. Yes, you can get good stuff, however, there are 3 cards that will wreck a campaign. 2 instantly and nearly permanently kill off your character (and by the time you could fix them, the payoff from drawing from the deck is not worth it), and one of them gives your character 50,000 xp. Why is that one bad? You try DM'ing a group with four 5th level characters and one 11th level character... That may be the case, but by your own math there are 11 possibilities that a player would like to get and 11 possibilities that a player would not like to get. That still makes for 50/50 odds for each card that something good will happen.
lancean 03-03-07, 12:04 AM	Now if you really want to cheese a deck of many things... there is technically no rule that says Augury doesn't work on a Deck. As a GM I wouldn't allow it (call it a Heisenberg Deck, the card isn't fixed until you actually draw it), but there's nothing in the rules against it. You'll need a cleric of at least 10th level. Load up on Augury spells, using all your higher level spells for Augury too. This should give you about 16 of them, each of which is 80% accurate. Casting Augury on the nature of each card, and only draw if you get a "weal" result. Statistically, you can be 99% good cards with 4 draws from the deck, and 96% good cards with 8 draws from the deck. And if you're higher level or have pearls of power available, you can loot the Deck this way even more times. Basicly you want 4 augury spells available per draw, which leaves a margin of safety. Since Augury has a range of Personal, this trick can only be used by the Cleric, right? Wrong. Get your hands on a Minor Ring of Spell Storing. The cleric can then load Augury into the ring over and over again so that others can pull this trick. Like I said... it's legal by the book... but I'd never allow it.
lancean 03-03-07, 12:09 AM	That may be the case, but by your own math there are 11 possibilities that a player would like to get and 11 possibilities that a player would not like to get. That still makes for 50/50 odds for each card that something good will happen. Yes, but it still means there is a 9% chance per draw that you have to crumple up your c-sheet and throw it away. How much loot is worth that potentially campaign-ruining event? I mean if you could be raised, that'd be fine. PC's risk death all the time for reward. But there's no coming back from this... not unless your party is seriously high level, and then you don't NEED the crap the deck can dole out.
ZeronHitaro 03-03-07, 12:11 AM	The DoMT is only bad if your DM is an arsello and a half. I dropped one on my 5-6 level party as a Christmas present. The worst that happened was 3 of them lost their souls (out of 7 members). However using a few of the other good draws: Wishes and Know Anything They (the remaining members) were able to find out where their souls were kept and used the wish to establish a portal between the locations. Some bluff, disguise, kobald clown suits and a birthday party for a succubus + diplomacy and the party members had their souls back. Even the worst cards can be put to good use.
Mitchell 03-03-07, 05:04 AM	Hypothetically? I draw. In practice, I am more likely to draw if I have a chaotic or neutral character. Wisdom may play a part as well. :cool:
Thunder Dragonbane 03-03-07, 11:01 AM	Personally I have liked the results from the deck. I even made one once for a game I was running. That way the players could see what they drew from the deck.
Coutts 03-03-07, 11:05 AM	HATE HATE HATE HATE DECKS OF MANY THINGS. Except when DMing
Karish 03-03-07, 11:51 AM	I'm a Dread Necromancer. I can whip up 22 zombies, have them each draw a card until the deck is empty, and yoinkavich what I want from those who get stuff that is good.
Sareld 03-03-07, 02:26 PM	As someone has mentioned, yes, I do like my character a lot. Sure, I can roll up a new one, but I want this one... hes simply too cool. Also, my character is the only person in the party who knows the next step in our quest to prevent the drow from obtaining an unstoppable super weapon and invade Faerūn, so his death will be fatal for the plot. He knows that the card he draws can destroy or otherwise harm him, but he dosent know the exact probability. Hmm.. I figured that he would not want to risk his life and the succes of the mission by gambling with his soul, made a deal with the ranger; he gets to draw my card, and gets to keep 2/3rds of whatever it gives. Obivously we can only split wealth and wishes in that way, but who cares. Even if he draws death, my character win.. he never liked that stupid ranger anyway. Thanks for the feedback, guys :)
Illeveun Bloodblaze 03-04-07, 12:44 AM	I would only draw if at least majority of the other party members gave a damn about what happens to you. If they do, you get imprisoned, party vote, and they are most likely off to get you back, if not, well, have any spare paper?
FrostWolf 03-04-07, 01:15 AM	It all depends. If I felt my character was holding back the party, then I'd take the chance to help them out, if not, then I'd pass it up.
Xavon 03-04-07, 01:23 AM	I might draw from a DoMT. I own no magic items, so that's no problem. I don't fear death, and I'm an athiest, so the death and soul removal don't frighten me. Of course, I also have no idea what level or character class I am (I'd guess around a L5 Smart Hero, but not certain), so the 50K XP is hit or miss. -------------------------- As for my characters, some would, some wouldn't. My namesake is familiar enough with the DoMT in concept, and conservative enough that he would not unless he had a dire need. My Chaotic good Kender Warlock also knows about the deck; and she would probably roll a a d6 and draw that many cards. And my Barbarian would have no idea what the Deck was, or the dangers it possessed, and unless warned beforehand, he might try to play solitare with it...
DyloniusFunk 03-04-07, 01:31 AM	It depends. Does your character not what is to gain and lose from it. This is a perfect example of metagaming. Unless that wizard told you all about it and that you could potentially get killed, I don't think your character has any right to refuse drawing Sorry but if that's metagaming then i flat out admit being guilty to the crime. If my DM forced me to draw a card form that wretched piece of trash deck i would walk out right then and there. If you want to frell with me do it to my face instead of behind the most badly designed DM toy every put into an RPG.
e7way 03-04-07, 01:32 AM	Tell your players to get some balls and man up, and draw from the deck!! i guarantee its one of the most exciting gaming nights you'll have in awhile. As a Dm you got to play it up big and make it fun and exciting. Nothing better than drawing that card were your PC gets a 50,000 exp bonus, ive done that twice in my day. Whats even better is after you draw that card, your buddy next to you draws the lose 20,000 exp gosh that hilarious or gets imprisoned 20 miles under the earth. LOL someone could now become the TCIG (toughest Character In the Group) or your rolling up a new character. I guess we are a competive bunch :schemes:
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 03-04-07, 02:58 AM	Yes. Repeatedly.
snakeman830 03-04-07, 08:44 PM	Ooh, I have come across this a couple of times. The first time, I drew a couple of cards and, unsurprisingly, got two baddies. Good thing I wasn't attached to that character yet. The second time was a bit more recent. My gnome spellstitched demilich Wizard 21 has maxed out his knowledge (arcana) and has INT of 43. He knew exactly what he had found so later on lent it to some guys in the pub playing eucher. That got interesting to say the least. Oh yeah, it depends on how much I like my character.
DrMorganes 03-04-07, 09:10 PM	The *ONLY* time that drawing from the deck is acceptable is when you know how to neuter it to give you nothing but good cards, which is just a second level divine spell away. Of course, if your character cannot personally cast second level cleric spells, then you should never draw from the deck, period. I'll argue that one with you, Edy (and you, too, lancean). Lesser Artifacts - particularly ones so strongly aligned with the concepts of Chaos - aren't going to let a little mortal magic get in the way. Augury has a chance to fail completely with a "nothing" result (21% - just over 1 in 5 - at Level 9 to be precise), meaning the cleric has no way to know. Even if successful the ONLY appropriate answer with regard to a draw from the Deck is "Weal and Woe" - indicating an equal change of a good or bad result. Not precisely the sort of thing upon which to base a grave decision... Additional castings on the same question also use the same die roll as the first, limiting the spell's usefulness even more. Would I draw? Absolutely.
batmanjr 03-05-07, 12:11 AM	a few things, what would your character do? Second thing is, how much do you like your character? If you have never drawn before in a game, I personally think you should draw, just so you can get the excitement of having a 50/50 chance with your character. If you really like your character and would not want to play another one, then I would say don't draw, the odds are evenly stacked, which doesn't mean a whole lot, but still, it's like playing Russian roulette with 3 of the 6 chambers loaded. Are those odds you'd really like to live/die on?
jeffseadot 03-05-07, 12:17 AM	Yeah, the odds are 50/50 for getting something good (or bad, if you want to be a pessimist)... but not all of the bad ones are hugely bad. Granted, they all suck to get, but getting the alignment change card really isn't *bad*, it's just inconvenient (unless you're a paladin or some such, in which case you'd need an Atonement... big deal). So yeah, I'd say it's worth the risk.
Bedevere 03-05-07, 04:57 AM	but getting the alignment change card really isn't *bad*, it's just inconvenient (unless you're a paladin or some such, in which case you'd need an Atonement... big deal). Paladins. Bards. Barbarians. Clerics. Monks. Druids. Thats six core classes that get severely troubled by the alignment changes. The majority of rogues would also have major difficulties with suddenly becoming lawful, if they were chaotic thieves...
danielinthewolvesden 03-05-07, 04:22 PM	Yes, I am afraid I would, nearly every time. :P
Platstud 03-05-07, 05:33 PM	This said, I can get around that last bit, at least. Before you draw, make the following agreement with someone you trust. "I hereby grant you ownership of all my property, on the understanding that you sell or give away none of it, make no use of items with limited uses, and return ownership to me at any time I choose in the future." If you draw the 'lose all material wealth' card, then you have none. even the clothes you are wearing are borrowed from your friend, technically. :) I had a character try this once in 2nd edition. My DM ruled that the deck didn't like people who tried to scam it and the other player lost all his stuff along with mine. I hate my DM...DAMN YOU, KOICHI!
StarFyre 03-07-07, 07:29 AM	We have a wild mage in my campaign..but not the prestige class from 3.5. i converted the 2e version (i thought it made more sense), and implemented the 3.5e -3 levels +1d6 for casting isntead of the table from 2e. Also put a DC check for a surge or not. And a critical success (20) or failure (1) causes something extra special :P Now, also according to the 2e version, they have a way of seeing the randomness in the deck and are thus able to draw twice and put back a bad resultor something. forgot..friends character is in my notes at home. (for those wondering, once friend reaches a level where he could have gotten the prestige class, he starts to get it's class benefits as well, on top of the current 2e version)... Sanjay
KurenaiYami 03-07-07, 07:38 AM	Would your character draw a card? And what kind of results can I enspect from doing so? I will be a level 8-9 druid by the time I get to draw, if that is of any relevance. Only if everybody else was doing it. My characters tend to be very meek and people pleasing in personality.
DyloniusFunk 03-07-07, 08:30 AM	Only if everybody else was doing it. My characters tend to be very meek and people pleasing in personality. That's really not a good reason to draw from this thing, especially if they all get the keep or the +exp cards and all you get is insta-death or -3 million levels or whatever penalties there are. yes i know those aren't right but i don't feel like looking the blasted thing up right now
_Jayne_Cobb_ 03-07-07, 11:09 AM	"I hereby grant you ownership of all my property, on the understanding that you sell or give away none of it, make no use of items with limited uses, and return ownership to me at any time I choose in the future." If you draw the 'lose all material wealth' card, then you have none. even the clothes you are wearing are borrowed from your friend, technically. :) The DoMT is an artifact. It cannot be defeated with grade-school pseudo-lawyerese verbal trickery.
DyloniusFunk 03-07-07, 11:20 AM	The DoMT is an artifact. It cannot be defeated with grade-school pseudo-lawyerese verbal trickery. I don't know who it was but someone here had in their sig a method for getting the best out of the Deck by using Augury.
_Jayne_Cobb_ 03-07-07, 11:56 AM	I don't know who it was but someone here had in their sig a method for getting the best out of the Deck by using Augury. That method is reliant on the DM ignoring the fact that the DoMT is an artifact.
Edymnion 03-07-07, 12:09 PM	and one of them gives your character 50,000 xp. Why is that one bad? You try DM'ing a group with four 5th level characters and one 11th level character...Actually, that one isn't a problem. Read the leveling up rules. If you ever gain enough xp at one time to gain more than one level, you gain one level and are brought up to one less xp than required to obtain the next level. You never gain more than 1 level at a time, not even from a DoMT. Load up on Augury spells, using all your higher level spells for Augury too.Its easier if you just use Augury scrolls. Basicly you want 4 augury spells available per draw, which leaves a margin of safety.This won't work, actually. Using Augury for each number of draws counts as a differant question, but it specifically says that casting Augury more than once for the same (or practically the same) question causes the subsequent castings to fail. I'll argue that one with you, Edy (and you, too, lancean). Lesser Artifacts - particularly ones so strongly aligned with the concepts of Chaos - aren't going to let a little mortal magic get in the way.A good houserule, but show me where in the rules it says this.That method is reliant on the DM ignoring the fact that the DoMT is an artifact.Again, show me where the rules say that artifacts are immune to divination magic. Seriously, right now, give me a page number. I'll save you some time, there isn't one. Neither the entries for artifacts in general, nor the DoMT in specific says that it is immune to divination magic, or any effect that would let you predict the outcome of a draw. Houserule-wise, its a good one, becaue I agree that this is utter cheese letting a 2nd level spell neuter the Deck of Many Things. But by the RAW, it works.
_Jayne_Cobb_ 03-07-07, 12:17 PM	Again, show me where the rules say that artifacts are immune to divination magic. Seriously, right now, give me a page number. There isn't one. I'll save you some time, there isn't one. I just said that. Neither the entries for artifacts in general, nor the DoMT in specific says that it is immune to divination magic, or any effect that would let you predict the outcome of a draw. Which is why the game has the DM, to interpret the rules and apply both logic and common sense. Houserule-wise, its a good one, becaue I agree that this is utter cheese letting a 2nd level spell neuter the Deck of Many Things. It doesn't require a house-rule, it just requires the DM to make a call. But by the RAW, it works. Just cos something isn't explicitly disallowed doesn't mean it is implicitly allowed.
snakeman830 03-07-07, 03:13 PM	While it is true that there is nothing in 3.5 saying the DoMT is indiscernerable by any mortal magic, there is in older editions. I cannot quote page numbers as I do not have the books, but I can tell you right now that was the case in 1st edition.
robertliguori 03-07-07, 05:14 PM	Which is why the game has the DM, to interpret the rules and apply both logic and common sense. You have an interesting definition of 'logic and common sense'. Logic and common sense, where I'm from, suggest that if a method works in situations A, B, C, D, etc., then unless there is something specific and notable about situation Z that means that said method won't work, the method should work. As has been said, there is nothing inherent about artifacts or divinations to suggest that the combination would produce anything anomolous. It doesn't require a house-rule, it just requires the DM to make a call. This is not a situation in which the rules are in question. There's no call to make, any more than it's a call whether or not a monk with 20 str can beat through a stone wall with his bare fists. The DM is welcome to change the existing rules, but it is a rules-change that is happening. Just cos something isn't explicitly disallowed doesn't mean it is implicitly allowed. Well, yes it kind of does. That's sort of implied in the term 'rule' as opposed to 'suggestion'. If you don't like the idea of rules for magic, then by all means, chuck the 3.X E system and make things up on the fly. But rules for magic mean that if a spell can do X barring certain conditions, and these conditions are not in effect, X happens, regardless of how advantageous it is for the player.
Edymnion 03-07-07, 06:18 PM	It doesn't require a house-rule, it just requires the DM to make a call. Which is still a houserule. By the RAW, this works. If a DM decides he doesn't like, he can (and should) say that it doesn't work. However, he's going against what the books say, changing the rules (in this case by adding to them), and thats a house rule in just about anybody's book.Just cos something isn't explicitly disallowed doesn't mean it is implicitly allowed.As has already been said, if a rule works for everything by default (which augury does, because it would be entirely too difficult to try and list all of the things it could do), then it must be assumed to work on everything, unless specifically said otherwise. So, lets use your logic here on a differant spell. Teleport. Lets say you are playing a module that has a big maze leading to a tower with the hapless maiden leaning out the window crying to be rescued. You are supposed to fight through the dungeon maze in order to get to the end. Instead, the Sorcerer sends his hawk familiar up to the open window, and then teleports the entire party inside, bypassing all the threats and getting straight to the reward. Nothing says you can't use Teleport to appear in a new location, and nothing in the tower entry says its protected by Dimensional Anchor or other anti-teleport spells. So, the Teleport should work. Just like, by the rules, Augury should work on the DoMT. It is a GOOD IDEA, and it is HIGHLY RECOMMENDED that the DM prevent this sort of thing, but there is nothing in the rules that stops it. While it is true that there is nothing in 3.5 saying the DoMT is indiscernerable by any mortal magic, there is in older editions. I cannot quote page numbers as I do not have the books, but I can tell you right now that was the case in 1st edition.Differant game. Old edition flavor does not dictate new edition rules. Unless you wanna say that Elf is a class in 3e, because it was in 1e?
bigbbodp 03-08-07, 12:22 AM	I had a player draw 7 cards and got GOOD ones he got 2 or 3 NICE magic iteams and gaind like I think 2 lvl's..... it's all in the cards
_Jayne_Cobb_ 03-08-07, 10:08 AM	Well, yes it kind of does. No, it precisely doesn't. This is best illustrated by the "so what if I'm dead" argument: until relatively recently the D&D rules did not specify that a dead PC cannot act and so some people argued that this meant a dead PC could leap to their feet and keep fighting indefintiely. Cos it wasn't specifically disallowed they assumed it was implicitlay allowed even though it violates all logic and common sense. I reiterate, just cos the rules do not spcifically disallow something does not mean they implicitly allow it.
Towel_Ninja 03-08-07, 12:45 PM	this is the deck where you can get wishes correct? if so, wish for it to replenish its cards after a card is drawn. so you can keep drawing like my character did. oh and make sure you shuffle O.O
_Jayne_Cobb_ 03-08-07, 01:39 PM	this is the deck where you can get wishes correct? if so, wish for it to replenish its cards after a card is drawn. so you can keep drawing like my character did. oh and make sure you shuffle O.O Every card drawn (with two exceptions) goes back into the deck after each draw. It is impossible to deplete the deck. Also, you need to state ahead of time how many cards you are going to draw, you can't just choose to keep going.
Dunsel 03-08-07, 02:18 PM	NEVER!!! I have the worst luck with this item dating all the way back to 1981. My first pull from it netted the following: 1)Imprisoned 2)lost all material items 3)emnity of a greater being (or something like that) I was very lucky the others in the party used their good cards to get me out of that jam. The DM bent the rules a bit to let that happen. IRRC, only your cards could affect you. I have pulled from this deck three times; all three times I pulled nothing but bad cards.
azovpraetorian 03-08-07, 02:42 PM	Its like Carfax.com if the deck is what I call hot (it has been drawn out of before and only bad stuff has been drawn out of it)... Then go go go... otherwise sell the draws to some low int chump and watch them become king... (when you tell someone else to go first they always get good stuff... espcially NPCs) I've been in a party that studiously researched a deck of many things and we spent like a month or so in game seeking out info on all the decks previous owners before deciding to sell the deck to a regional king we didn't like (only the bad stuff was left so he drew and got killed...)
_Jayne_Cobb_ 03-08-07, 02:53 PM	Its like Carfax.com if the deck is what I call hot (it has been drawn out of before and only bad stuff has been drawn out of it)... Then go go go... otherwise sell the draws to some low int chump and watch them become king... (when you tell someone else to go first they always get good stuff... espcially NPCs) I've been in a party that studiously researched a deck of many things and we spent like a month or so in game seeking out info on all the decks previous owners before deciding to sell the deck to a regional king we didn't like (only the bad stuff was left so he drew and got killed...) Again, there is no "just bad stuff left." Evey card drawn (with two execptions) goes back into the deck before the person's next draw and each person who draws from the deck does so with all the cards in place before drawing. If you have been playing it so that cards drawn are removed forever then you have been playing it wrong.
Khisanth Magus 03-08-07, 03:33 PM	All these people saying that you can just use divination to decide whether to draw a card or not... You must have very lenient DMs. You say there is nothing in the RAW that says you can't do this, but I believe there is. At the beginning you must state how many cards you plan on drawing. You draw that many cards, no more, no less. If you say that you can use Augury to see if the card at the top is good or bad, and then can move it to the bottom of the deck or something, this wouldn't work. In order to move a card to the bottom you have to remove it from the deck, and to draw a card means to take that card from the deck. Although I suppose that this ruling depends on your DM doing the same thing all of my DMs have done: said you always draw from the TOP of the deck. This isn't "Pick a card, any card" here.
snakeman830 03-08-07, 03:33 PM	Differant game. Old edition flavor does not dictate new edition rules. Unless you wanna say that Elf is a class in 3e, because it was in 1e? I don't recall saying anything of the sort. I just pointed this out as this may be where half the argument is coming from. True, 1st edition D&D is not 3.5 D&D, but they are both D&D and you can convert between the two. Going backwards is harder, but possible.
StormKnight 03-08-07, 04:38 PM	Sure, cast Augury. I (the DM) will then tell you weal or woe...based on the average result of a draw. Its not like I know which card is going to come up next anyway.
Platstud 03-08-07, 04:51 PM	Sure, cast Augury. I (the DM) will then tell you weal or woe...based on the average result of a draw. Its not like I know which card is going to come up next anyway. Of course you don't. How could you possibly. It's not as though you're holding the deck in your hands and could LOOK or anything? Oh, wait...
StormKnight 03-08-07, 05:11 PM	Of course you don't. How could you possibly. It's not as though you're holding the deck in your hands and could LOOK or anything? Oh, wait... I could, but since I'm a DM, what are the odds I actually will? :devil: Actually, I'd be inclined to glance at the top card, say "Oooh...very good!" And then shufflle the deck. But then, a DoMT in my game would bear only a vague resemblance to normal deck.
Platstud 03-08-07, 05:14 PM	I could, but since I'm a DM, what are the odds I actually will? :devil: Actually, I'd be inclined to glance at the top card, say "Oooh...very good!" And then shufflle the deck. But then, a DoMT in my game would bear only a vague resemblance to normal deck. As a point of note, I agree that augury shouldn't be able to affect the deck(RAW or otherwise, I don't feel it's in line with the spirit of the rules). I was just pointing out one of the many ways the DM could control it.
robertliguori 03-08-07, 05:26 PM	No, it precisely doesn't. This is best illustrated by the "so what if I'm dead" argument: until relatively recently the D&D rules did not specify that a dead PC cannot act and so some people argued that this meant a dead PC could leap to their feet and keep fighting indefintiely. Cos it wasn't specifically disallowed they assumed it was implicitlay allowed even though it violates all logic and common sense. I reiterate, just cos the rules do not spcifically disallow something does not mean they implicitly allow it. ...and? If the rules do not prohibit a dead character from acting, then they don't prohibit a dead character from acting. You can argue to the uselessness of literal RAW in edge and corner cases, but altering it is still houserules. Logical, necessary houserules that no DM in a million years would even consider houserules are still houserules, if they contradict RAW. And RAW defines capacities; if a player can act on their turn, and are not in a condition that is defined as limiting actions, then they can act.
Bjorn Borg 03-08-07, 10:08 PM	I would definitely draw, and for 2 reaosns. 1) My characters wouldn't know any better. They would draw out of curiosity. 2) It's a game, and a fun one at that. Be risky, it might payoff. I had 2 characters draw from the deck in a campaign where 2 others had also drawn. My wizard received 3 wishes, but, unfortunately, had to spend one raising my dragonslayer who had drawn and died. The other 2 were used to locate (some devil king in the 9 Hells) and then restore the soul of the party rogue who had drawn. The good and bad cards all evened out in the end, and traveling to another plane was an exciting side-quest for the party.
green_yawgmoth 03-09-07, 11:54 AM	I'd do it. Game is going to be ruined in 3 sessions anyways when half the players get a keep, 50,000gp in cash and prizes, an angelic consort, and an airship while the other half get a -8 to all stats, have all of their gear turn to leeches, and get raped by a kyton; may as well see which side you fall on. That's just how the DoMT works. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
_Jayne_Cobb_ 03-09-07, 12:34 PM	It's a game, and a fun one at that. Best point yet. :thumbsup: