Post/Author/DateTime	Post
aroshi 12-04-04, 01:50 PM	Setting: I've been playing with some very good friends for many years now. We've gained and lost lots of players and are now down to what I would probably consider the best 5 of us as far as playing ability and dedication to be present. We have switched DM's on and off and have seen quite an assortment of characters. Currently, we've been playing a somewhat Dragonlance themed campaign for about a year (once per week). The DM knows the rules quite well, and is able to put together somewhat interesting turns of events. Herein lies the problem: This DM does not seem to understand what the idea of balance is within the realm of campaign setting. IMO, he seems to be unbalancing things with the way he wants to 'up' the campaign to meet our character levels (Epic, ~24). Instead of having new monsters, or more monsters, he seems to be happy with just 'swelling' the creatures we're running into by boosting all of their stats and abilities. As a player, he was always the defiant one, the assassin with no morals that didn't mind taking out a PC if it was in his way. Everything to this person seems to be about overcoming any obstacle and as a DM making the game frustrating for all of the players. Solutions, so far: I have tried to say things (to him directly, or as comments during game) about how things don't seem to be balanced when we're going up against mere goblins that end up having magical weapons, armour, and 100+ hp, as well as spell casters that all seem to have every metamagic feat and bonus ability possible. Let's just say that he takes full advantage of the DM Screen and doesn't seem to fumble anywhere near as often as he crits. I'm not the only player that has said anything, and we've all, for now, decided to try to overcome what obstacles are thrown at us. Being a bit passive-aggressive, we've also taken it upon our characters to make things as frustrating for him as possible, forcing him to roll outcomes as often as we possibly can (using 20% miss and partial cover modifiers, in combat). It has made him roll more, and see that we're trying to frustrate him in return, but that's not what we want to happen. What suggestions do any of you have, in game or out, for playing out this situation with all of us remaining friends and playing together? I'd like to point out that I don't think it would go over well if we all just decided to quit the campaign and have someone else DM right now. Please cite references and include links where possible. I have been playing D&D for over 15 years, but I'm not omniscient, nor a Type 'A' rules lawyer. Thanks.
D_Martin 12-04-04, 02:12 PM	Sounds like a good DM to me. The PC's have all of these qualities(spells, stats, feats and so on), why shouldn't the NPC's! Is it frustrating because it is difficult; because you all keep dying; or because it isn't the cookie-cutter NPC? I took regular DMG monsters and boosted their stats and class levels also. That is all perfectly reasonable as well as encouraged in 3.?. Keeps the PC's on their toes(looks can be deceiving). If you all are Epic levels, then he almost has to do it this way because of the power you all possess. :teach: All DM's crit. more than they fumble ...this is not a new phenomenon! :fight!: I don't see what he doing wrong. He is adjusting to the fact that you are epic levels.
e-z0r 12-04-04, 02:13 PM	Why is it not a valid option to talk to the man? Pah. Why the hell are you wading in a muck of trying to invent some really weird solutions to problems that shouldn't even be there? A DM's purpose is to stage a fun time for the players, to get everyone to enjoy themselves at the table. That may be by exciting action or good plotlines or whatever, but the point is that the DM is not there to make the players miserable. And the other way around, too. So you tell him. "I'm don't want to offend you, but me and the other players have been feeling bad about the way combat is going in our games. We'd like to see more variety of enemies instead of just beefed up kobolds. We've been hack-slashing kobolds and goblins since lvl 1 and it's just not so much fun anymore. Another thing is hiding the monsters' battle throws: we'd like to see them out in the open instead of behind the screen because we feel the monsters' dice luck is suspicious at least." But then you could search yourself, and the group, to see if there's anything you're doing to make him act like this, or is it just his problem as you seem to be suggesting.
e-z0r 12-04-04, 02:15 PM	Sounds like a good DM to me. The PC's have all of these qualities(spells, stats, feats and so on), why shouldn't the NPC's! Is it frustrating because it is difficult; because you all keep dying; or because it isn't the cookie-cutter NPC? I took regular DMG monsters and boosted their stats and class levels also. That is all perfectly reasonable as well as encouraged in 3.?. Keeps the PC's on their toes(looks can be deceiving). If you all are Epic levels, then he almost has to do it this way because of the power you all possess. :teach: All DM's crit. more than they fumble ...this is not a new phenomenon! :fight!: I don't see what he doing wrong. He is adjusting to the fact that you are epic levels. No no no.. Make them fight new, big monsters, not Skeletons with 100hd. I'd get bored if I had to beat up hundreds after hundreds of the same enemies except with more HP and bigger swords.
D_Martin 12-04-04, 02:27 PM	If that is the problem, just same ol' monsters you have been hacking since level 1 , but more levels. Then I can see the problem. But if he does have a variety of different monsters, but throws in an occasional beefed up boring monster, then I don't see the problem. If the former is the case, ask him if he could use a little more variety in the monsters.
aroshi 12-04-04, 02:51 PM	I should have presented more detail about the problems when I originally posted, let me try this again: Being Epic, yes, our challenges should be harder, and it should seem to be more of a difficult task and not only a linear change, but some things that cannot be overcome even by us. But we accept the challeges, and I accept that things will be frustrating because they are difficult. That's not the argument. In this world, now that he has wisked us up to these levels (since he likes big numbers when damage is dealt), there does not seem to exist in this world a single creature of low HD, or even a normal, non-magical creature anywhere. If we were to simply go hunting in the woods for food while camping on our way to a nice little town, we would encounter nearly epic HD creatures, at least. What would the nice non-adventurer people of that town eat? One session he feels we're not strong enough, so he takes us out and keeps / drains all of our items, then he turns around and gives us boosts to our abilities and weapons because things were not balanced. Everything has to be done very drastic. Goblins with 100+ hp, every creature having almost every possible feat or ability for their class, and not allowing simple good ideas to overcome the big elaborate schemes he has devised because they aren't the plans that he foresaw. Ogres with 300+ hp and stats to match. Growing creatures in such a way by just adding +4 or +6 to everything they do doesn't keep them balanced, they've grown almost exponentially because even if they were fairly boosted to a higher level, everything about them wouldn't grow as such. All DM's crit. more than they fumble ...this is not a new phenomenon! But of course! Even when I was a DM, it must be a bonus feat for DMs! ;-) But having easily a dozen or so crits per 5 or 6 hour game one week and not seeing a crit more than once every couple weeks? A bit too fuzzy. Not a real concern, it happens. Why is it not a valid option to talk to the man? It is, and I have. Although, I do like the way that you presented it. Those are the sort of input I think I was looking for, another way to present the issues at hand so that it wouldn't break things up, but merely change things for the better. Why the hell are you wading in a muck of trying to invent some really weird solutions to problems that shouldn't even be there? Mostly because most of the other guys are too passive, and the DM is a more aggressive person. I fit both roles and can do whatever, which is why I was the one to talk to the DM, and I was the only one to really make any comments and not just keep getting raped and trying to overcome impossible odds just to be told our stuff didn't work (for no real reasons except the DM's need to win). Even after things have been said, they didn't really change at all. I don't want to make it a more serious situation by trying to force his hand, because I fear this could break up the group.
eudas 12-04-04, 03:11 PM	well, when it all comes down to it, you have a very simple choice: you can do something about it, or you can suffer. how much do you really feel like suffering? eudas
Shard of Suzail 12-04-04, 03:13 PM	Well, first off, stop trying to frustrate your gm with number crunching. Making his gameplay experience less fun is just a stupid and spiteful idea that will get you nowhere. As to the issue at hand though... Well, level 24 characters can be hard to run for. Epic games are beyond my skill to run, and i`m a gm of more experience than most who post here. Heck, i`ve been paid to run and have done promotion stuff for Eden Studios, but would i touch epic level? Not on your life. A pack of level 24 characters is hard to handle in the extreme and any challenge that you throw at them had best be so mindbending as to threaten time, space and things in between. Most GM's on these threads who i have seen advising on epic encounters suggest that the best way to go is to use teams of monsters with complimentary abilities rather than single large beasts. Putting those sorts of threats together takes a lot of work. It's my guess that he is probably not cut out for running such a demanding and unforgiving campaign. While it is a good thing to turbocharge some lesser beasts, the same old thing wont always do. I think if it is done well, then it will work a lot more than one would suspect. Skeletons, for instance, work just as well at their usual level as when the gm makes them "cosmic rift bones" at level 20 ish. Needless to say, the two sorts will look quite different and do slightly different things, but they are still skellies. Could i put together completely new epic monsters to populate my campaigns with? Probably not, not in large numbers anyway and players will go through monsters like bookworms through spellbooks. Does this player have access to lots of books filled with epic monster types? If yes, then he should be using them, but if no, then i`m not surprised he is having a tough time. Chances are he is just sticking with what he knows. This would explain the spellcasters with lots of metamagical feats (though in all honesty, what other feats would high level spellcasters have?). I`m unsurprised that he is throwing high level NPC's at you rather than monsters. Even epic type monsters are usually knocked into a hat by the average player at that level. There have been more than enough threads where i`ve seen players discussing how they mangled the terrasque with a few clever spells, or otherwise utterly crushed something that most players would never contemplate taking on. Your group is probably a capable pack of executioners who butcher their way through tough games. There does come a point where they will run out of "bigger fish" to take on and should contemplate giving up on the whole adventuring lark. By all means encourage your gm to change what his monsters look like. Epic goblinoids may wear thin as a concept, for instance. However, at the end of the day, he`ll probably make use of the same core monster and just change its appearance and maybe a few minor powers. There is a limit to just how different things can get when you get to level 24 or more. What is it? Well its a monster, it hurts you and has some special powers. They're all going to be more or less variations on a similar thing. Maybe it would be better to say that he is stuck in the mentality of low level play rather than saying that he uses the wrong sort of monster. Epic play is a much different animal to the lower end stuff and games tend to see less monsters and generally less action in general, with the fewer fights that do take place being utterly massive and carefully set in place by the gm. Fights are also less decisive, with many of them being more titanic conflicts of two massive power groups, the players and the pack of mighty foes, who spar for quite some time, retreat, spar a bit more and then give or receive the final smackdown once one side figures out how to squash the other one for good. It's just not Kansas anymore, Dorothy and your GM is lacking the Ruby slippers that will let him make a difference in the epic player world of do as you please. Your best bet is probably just to weather the storm until a new gm takes over, but definitely dont try and damage your gm's confidence further with messing up the game and causing him discomfort. Chances are he is uncomfortable enough as it is.
aroshi 12-04-04, 03:56 PM	...dont try and damage your gm's confidence further with messing up the game and causing him discomfort. Chances are he is uncomfortable enough as it is. First thing I should point out is that he revels and adores his works as a DM. I think this is one reason one of the players decided to start causing him to roll as often as possible. That, and he stated he didn't like having to do that so he removed our party's cloak of displacement at his first possible opportunity. He has plenty of books and resources, and spends a good bit of his time (including several hours while on layover in an airport during his honeymoon) reading up on, and creating things for the campaign. Chances are he is just sticking with what he knows. This would explain the spellcasters with lots of metamagical feats (though in all honesty, what other feats would high level spellcasters have?). This seems very true. But as for balance, even an epic spellcaster doesn't have every spellcasting feat. There is a reason to "choose" certain feats... it's because we can't have them all. I agree that this maybe because he doesn't know what else he can do, or be done, and just wants the thrill of playing an Epic adventure, even though there is no knowledge of how the campaign would appear differently than a lower-level campaign. There does come a point where they will run out of "bigger fish" to take on and should contemplate giving up on the whole adventuring lark. Everything about this campaign is on an epic scale, with some elements very similar to what you would find in your typical Tolkien or Dragonlance novels, but with the low-level feel of the home-town to which we are continually drawn, which really offers us nothing near what we could provide for ourselves while in the worst environments presented on this planet. Now, since everything we're doing is on a planet-wide scale of effect, we couldn't really move away from the storyline to pursue other endeavors. With a global scale fate, and gods pushing and prodding us forward, we are almost forced to (perhaps railroaded) into this storyline. But that's not something I wouldn't expect in an epic adventure. It should be something we can't ignore, otherwise it probably wouldn't be worth our time. By all means encourage your gm to change what his monsters look like. Epic goblinoids may wear thin as a concept, for instance. However, at the end of the day, he`ll probably make use of the same core monster and just change its appearance and maybe a few minor powers. There is a limit to just how different things can get when you get to level 24 or more. I think I will suggest that things get tweaked a bit so that things are not as static and unchanged. So there is a new feel to the game. I think I will point out to him that the I-will-win-no-matter-what type of frustrating DM bit is getting old and not very much fun for the players. I am going to point out that there are a lot of things within the campaign, including game-play, that have been enjoyable to keep things from seeming like an attack, but more like constructive criticism. Usually much easier to swallow. Hopefully all of the comments I have gotten will help me to effect a positive gaming environment from this yet! Thanks to everyone.
Aeromus 12-04-04, 06:10 PM	So basicially he has "scaled the entire world" to epic level to offset your power? Well, yeah that sucks... But when I DM epic campaigns and my players want to roleplay hunting a 3hd deer, and I smack them with a dice bag. He should basicially just use flavour text to describe things such as that. PLayer: I go hunting. DM ok, roll d20 add survival. Players 57 DM Ok you get a deer, it tastes good, Night falls and day breaks what's up now players? Player: WTF? I want to roleplay hunting.....
UltimateReality 12-04-04, 08:07 PM	In this world, now that he has wisked us up to these levels (since he likes big numbers when damage is dealt), there does not seem to exist in this world a single creature of low HD, or even a normal, non-magical creature anywhere. If we were to simply go hunting in the woods for food while camping on our way to a nice little town, we would encounter nearly epic HD creatures, at least. What would the nice non-adventurer people of that town eat? One session he feels we're not strong enough, so he takes us out and keeps / drains all of our items, then he turns around and gives us boosts to our abilities and weapons because things were not balanced. Everything has to be done very drastic. Hm...does he have very grandiose storylines too? We have a couple players in our group right now like this...everything must be very dramatic, over the top, be it roleplay or combat. One of them isn't too concerned about the rules and mechanical balance, the other intentionally tries to bend them to his advantage. Personally, a playstyle so contrasting and stark isn't something I go for, but if they find it fun and think it's what epic fantasy is....*shrug* I'm not DMing, nor are they, so I don't care. Just means more RP xp for me to go pull them out of the mess they've gotten into this time. :P (One of the players, FWIW, does DM. I played a couple times in his game, got distracted too much, and begged out of the group. They also met reeeeally late at night.) Also, I would point out to him that bit about what do the level 1 commoners eat.... Point out to the guy that if a level 24 character kills a normal old deer he's not getting combat xp for it anyway -- in fact, as level 24s don't you guys have magic items and spells now that will take care of food, or remove the need for it altogether?
e-z0r 12-04-04, 09:49 PM	Seems this person has some sort of self-esteem issue if he "has to win" when he DMs. Perhaps he should understand that a roleplaying game isn't like Kimble or Monopoly where the players gather up and best man wins. There's no need for competition at a roleplaying table, and surely there are other things he can do to up his self-respect, rather than dominating players at your sessions. Now, I don't DM, basically because I hate it and love playing characters, but definately when I do DM, I get the best feeling from players having a good time out of something I created (although I'm not very good at this. Another reason why I don't like DMing). Most certainly one of the best aspects of roleplaying, for me, is the story. The tale. To this end, I, at least, feel the challenge rating of a game should be just high enough to force the players to thinking, and enough to keep up the sense of excitement and danger, but low enough that eventually the players will overcome (unless they of course do something stupid. But I'd expect players to actually try to emulate a desire to live rather than die (except on special circumstances), and to keep themselves alive.) After all, the story dies kind of short if the players get offed before they get anywhere.
krichaiushii 12-05-04, 09:13 AM	Massive damage? Everything is huge (in power, if not size)? Epic games? Try Rifts! :D
delroland 12-05-04, 09:37 AM	It seems to me that your group's problem is not the combats that the DM throws at you, but rather that you are bored with combat itself. Rolling dice and killing monsters is fun, but if that is all your campaign revolves around, then I can see why you would be getting frustrated with the situation. My suggestion is to talk with the other players and develop one last overriding, supremely difficult task to achieve before retiring your characters and starting over. Divine ascension is a good goal, as is the establishment of some great, enlightened empire. Or maybe combine the two, creating an empire run by immortals in physical form. This could lead to a campaign where, a thousand years later, new heroes rise up to overthrow these corrupt "gods" that rule all, thus eventually giving your DM the extremely entertaining task of NPC'ing your old characters in a huge battle against the new ones. But whatever you decide to do, I would definitely suggest going out with a bang and starting over.
Spankinstein 12-05-04, 09:39 AM	Pool your money and buy him MM2, MM3, and FF. And tell him honestly, your group is tired of the way the current campaign is going.
PhaedrusXY 12-06-04, 08:52 PM	It is very difficult to run a game at that level, because most of the "standard" monsters need to be heavily beefed up to be a challenge, and just about anything out of the Epic Level Handbook would totally wipe the floor with your party without breaking a sweat. The stuff in the Epic Level Handbook is a LOT more powerful. It is not a linear increase in power going from CR 20ish stuff from the "other" books to CR 21+ stuff in the Epic book. It is like going from college football to the pros. So that could be part of the problem. The party needs to be either heavily optimized at the low to mid 20s, or in the 30+ level range to really be able to handle much of that stuff. As far as being jumped by 30 HD vorpal bunnies when you go out hunting, I agree that that is just silly. Just because the PCs have gotten alot more powerful doesn't mean the world changes. I like running into a horde of goblins or orcs sometimes, even in games where the characters are high level. It makes the world more realistic. Are you sure there isn't some high powered enemy that's watching you all the time, and sending this stuff after you when you seem to be vulnerable (i.e. alone, hunting in the woods)? I really think that for most games, you are better off getting involved in Planar stuff when you get into the higher levels. That way you can realistically run into super powerful monsters that present a reasonable challenge without it messing up the integrity of the original campaign world. You could also get into more political stuff like leading your own organizations and directing underlings against your enemies instead of directly confronting everything yourselves, but that isn't the kind of game alot of people like.