Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Azar_of_Faerun 01-01-07, 10:45 AM	I posted something to this effect over on Magic and Spells, but i'll expand it here. In our group, the DM is fairly generous awarding treasure of the small sort - rings, amulets, broochs, clasps and the like. However, he has a strange fetish with destroying a little more than what we receive in his own form of balance. Consequentally we're at 75? to 80% of the recommended treasure for our levels. We're composed of a warblade, cleric, paladin and rogue - so gear holds a significant sway to our success moreso than if we had another full caster. Any advice for either outright having our DM stop the gear grinding or confronting him in person? :confused:
ShadowDragon8685 01-01-07, 11:26 AM	The problem with Sunder is that there's no real defense against it - there's no Counter Sunder ability or feat. There is only one real way to counter a Sunderizer DM. Scrap your current characters, and make the following ones: Vow of Poverty Warlock Vow of Poverty Monk Vow of Poverty Druid Vow of Poverty Sorcerer He can't sunder what you don't have, and you'll have him begging for mercy, what with the Warlock's permenant airborne mobility, ability to blast people consistantly, and become invisible at will, the Monk's, well, he's a f'nuckin' VoP Monk. The Druid will terrify with his Wildshape and Wild Spell, and he won't need to carry anything that he can't pick up off the forest anyway (holly branches, stuff like that), and the VoP Sorcerer is a demon to deal with. (Don't forget the Eschew Materials feat, too. :) ) Then tell him, "This is our way of compensating for your habit of sundering everything our characters own. We don't want to play a quartet of wandering, poverty-stricken mooks, but we will because they're going to be consistantly more powerful than characters who have all their stuff gimped off them by your Sunderizing Monster Hordes." Plus, give your VoP Monk the Improved Sunder feat, and the Warlock should take the ability that lets him Shatter at will. Wacky fun! Turn his own game against him.
mkill 01-01-07, 01:24 PM	@ShadowDragon: Nah, all you achieve with that is start a power struggle with the DM. This destroys the fun for everybody. Gaming is a social activity, it's not about players vs. DM. Any advice for either outright having our DM stop the gear grinding or confronting him in person? :confused: Why not just write your DM an e-mail saying "Good session yesterday, but could you please stop sundering our hard-earned items? We're already 20% behind suggested wealth level" Really, he's a human being (I presume) and you should be able to talk to him. Most DMs don't get much feedback so they don't know what pisses players off and what they like. Just try to confront him in a nice way, after all, he uses his free time to prepare sessions and DM. It may help if you also tell him what you like about his campaigns. If you are diplomatic enough you might strike a deal that he either stops sundering important magic items, or that he allows players some way to repair them. Maybe there is an NPC arcane smith that can repair sundered magic items against a fee.
ShadowDragon8685 01-01-07, 01:59 PM	@ShadowDragon: Nah, all you achieve with that is start a power struggle with the DM. This destroys the fun for everybody. Gaming is a social activity, it's not about players vs. DM. Why not just write your DM an e-mail saying "Good session yesterday, but could you please stop sundering our hard-earned items? We're already 20% behind suggested wealth level" Really, he's a human being (I presume) and you should be able to talk to him. Most DMs don't get much feedback so they don't know what pisses players off and what they like. Just try to confront him in a nice way, after all, he uses his free time to prepare sessions and DM. It may help if you also tell him what you like about his campaigns. If you are diplomatic enough you might strike a deal that he either stops sundering important magic items, or that he allows players some way to repair them. Maybe there is an NPC arcane smith that can repair sundered magic items against a fee. So, instead of being behind their wealth by level because of sundered items, they'll be behind their wealth by level because they keep having to repair sundered items? There are some generally unwritten, unspoken rules in D&D, this is because they are common courtesy rules. They apply to DMs and PCs equally. 1. Thou Shalt Touch None Other's Spellbook, unlessing that thou hast first killed him. 2. Thou Shalt Not Sunder. 3. Thou Shalt Not Disarm. When the players break these rules, it's bad. When the DM does, it's worse. It dosen't matter to the DM if the players use these tactics; his NPCs have literally whatever he wants to give them. The players only have what they take off the NPCs. So, when a DM starts Sunderizing as a common strategy, the players need to fix it. The DM has escalated this situation, it is his fault for turning it into a "Me versus them" situation by destroying all their loot. And talking to the DM, while a lofty goal, does not always work. Try talking to him, by all means, but if his ways do not change, then come back with the all VoP group. Tell him, "If we can't have anything without the fear of it being sundered, we won't have anything."
pedro2112 01-01-07, 08:30 PM	.There are some generally unwritten, unspoken rules in D&D, this is because they are common courtesy rules. They apply to DMs and PCs equally. 1. Thou Shalt Touch None Other's Spellbook, unlessing that thou hast first killed him. 2. Thou Shalt Not Sunder. 3. Thou Shalt Not Disarm. When the players break these rules, it's bad. When the DM does, it's worse Wow, what a terrible unwritten rule that (thankfully) the vast majority of D&D players don't abide by. If appropriate, a player or DM should Sunder, Disarm, etc. It only becomes a problem when the DM metagames it so that monsters sunder items that they have no idea are magic (which is what I suspect with the OP), or sunder when doing so would be against the interest of the monster (i.e., they know their defenses will be significantly compromised, but the DM metagames to do it anyway as a way of nerfing the player). If an intelligent monster knows for sure that a PC has a powerful magic item, and the monster is capable of sundering it as part of a sound combat tactical plan, then it would be bad DMing if the monster didn't attempt the Sunder.
Toloran 01-01-07, 08:37 PM	Wow, what a terrible unwritten rule that (thankfully) the vast majority of D&D players don't abide by. If appropriate, a player or DM should Sunder, Disarm, etc. It only becomes a problem when the DM metagames it so that monsters sunder items that they have no idea are magic (which is what I suspect with the OP), or sunder when doing so would be against the interest of the monster (i.e., they know their defenses will be significantly compromised, but the DM metagames to do it anyway as a way of nerfing the player). If an intelligent monster knows for sure that a PC has a powerful magic item, and the monster is capable of sundering it as part of a sound combat tactical plan, then it would be bad DMing if the monster didn't attempt the Sunder. There are alot of things myself (the DM) and the players have as an unspoken agreement: 1) Don't sunder expensive magic items, and 2) Don't use Disjunction. As long as the players don't (or keep it to a minimum), so will I. The main reason is that players will occasionally save up money so that they can buy a weapon with their favorite ability they always wanted. Then in the very first battle it gets destroyed and it all goes to waste. IMO, the sunder rules aren't particularly balanced (same with the the tumble ones). So as long as they don't abuse the rule, neither will I. It's not about being realistic or not. It is about having fun. Having your items destroyed isn't fun and is generally not the best move in any given encounter. As for disjunction.... well. That spell is just rude :) Edit: I really don't see what is wrong with disarm though.
ShadowDragon8685 01-01-07, 09:12 PM	There are alot of things myself (the DM) and the players have as an unspoken agreement: 1) Don't sunder expensive magic items, and 2) Don't use Disjunction. As long as the players don't (or keep it to a minimum), so will I. The main reason is that players will occasionally save up money so that they can buy a weapon with their favorite ability they always wanted. Then in the very first battle it gets destroyed and it all goes to waste. IMO, the sunder rules aren't particularly balanced (same with the the tumble ones). So as long as they don't abuse the rule, neither will I. It's not about being realistic or not. It is about having fun. Having your items destroyed isn't fun and is generally not the best move in any given encounter. As for disjunction.... well. That spell is just rude :) Edit: I really don't see what is wrong with disarm though. Neither do I (Disarm), but if they're willing to abide by that gentleplayer's agreement, I don't see any reason the DM shoulden't, either. Again; it goes to fun. If they don't want to bother with the hassle of finding their weapon in someone else's hands, and they're willing to forego the tactical possibilities presented by taking someone else's weapon, no reason not to honor the arrangement.
Mock26 01-01-07, 09:17 PM	First off, the recommended treasure is just a recommendation. Second, it is a very smart move on the part of intelligent creatures to sunder what appears to be magical items. Magic items can be very powerful and it is a wise and tactical move to sunder such items. Third, it is petty and childish of the DM to give and then take the items back. I can understand some opponents doing this, but not all. It is highly odd that nearly every single opponent out there feels the same way about magic items. Don't any of these opponents have the desire to simply kill the characters and take their magic items? Fourth, find ways of defeating your DM. Fork over some hefty cash and have your favorite rings made permanently invisible. Or, wear gauntlets or gloves over your rings, thus hiding them from view. Wear one magical ring on each hand, but put three rings on every finger (and two on the one with the magic ring) and have them all of varying designs, some more flashy and expensive looking that the magic ring, some duller and more mundane looking. And, if you've got the money, have them all given a magical aura! If you're a fighter and you use a shield, the shield will make it so that the ring cannot be seen. Hide your brooches and amulets under your armor or under your clothing. (For example, put on a undershirt and secure your brooch to it. Then, put a shirt on over that so that the brooch cannot be seen. Or, wear amulets directly against your skin. If need be, have some flaps cut in your shirt so you can quickly reach in to grab the item.) Just start to use your creative mind juices and you can come up with a lot of ways to hide these magic items yet still benefit from them. And if not, then start creating your own magic items and add in defenses to counter these sunder attacks. If you would like, list a whole bunch of items that he has sundered and I'll help come up with ways that you could have protected them. And, list the current magic items that you have and I'll help do the same. Take care and have a great day.... ciao, john.
Neofish 01-01-07, 09:28 PM	Neo's house rule for sunder: If you fail the attack opposing attack on a sunder attempt, your weapon take damage instead (equal to your opponents damage roll). That way, sundering is a risky proposition (if you want to be nice, you could make a failed sunder attempt provoke a free disarm attempt by the enemy [would represent your blow bouncing off your opponents blade]). Every DM should sunder, disarm, trip, flank and generally be ruthless in combat, I mean, if your fighting for your life, wouldn't you try and maximize your chances of success?
Mock26 01-01-07, 09:44 PM	Neo's house rule for sunder: If you fail the attack opposing attack on a sunder attempt, your weapon take damage instead (equal to your opponents damage roll). That way, sundering is a risky proposition (if you want to be nice, you could make a failed sunder attempt provoke a free disarm attempt by the enemy [would represent your blow bouncing off your opponents blade]). Every DM should sunder, disarm, trip, flank and generally be ruthless in combat, I mean, if your fighting for your life, wouldn't you try and maximize your chances of success? There are a lot of simple ways to "defeat" your DM in this situation without having to result to trying to have the DM create a houserule to make it harder for him to sunder the item. And, you don't even have to tell the DM about some of them. For example, my ring example above. Tell your DM you are buying 40 rings of varying GP value and of varying designs and such, and then write a detailed listing on your character sheet of where the rings are: Left Thumb: Ring, Ring, Ring Left Index Finger: Ring of the Ram, Ring, Ring Left Middle Finger: Ring, Ring, Ring Left Ring Finger: Ring, Ring, Ring Left Pinky Finger: Ring, Ring, Ring Right Thumb: Ring, Ring, Ring Right Index Finger: Ring, Ring, Ring Right Middle Finger: Ring, Ring, Ring Right Ring Finger: Ring, Ring, Ring Right Pinky Finger: Ring, Ring of Spell Turning, Ring (I left off the ring descriptions of the various mundane rings). If the DM says that he is sundering the Ring of the Ram, tell him that you're wearing 15 rings on that hand and ask him which one he's going to sunder!
Sphere 01-01-07, 11:05 PM	If an intelligent monster knows for sure that a PC has a powerful magic item, and the monster is capable of sundering it as part of a sound combat tactical plan, then it would be bad DMing if the monster didn't attempt the Sunder. There are three reasons I disagree with this: Why not just target the guy holding the thing? Break their sword only to have them pull out another weapon, or use more effective ways to disable them and take them out of the fight for the duration. There are tons of alchemical items, weapons, oils, potions, traps, or poisons that can do this and are safer to use than getting close enough to a PC to sunder their gear. Why break a magical item when you can just disarm it then sell or use it yourself later? NPCs are just a greedy as PC's if not more-so. This obviously isn't the thought process of a rust monster or ooze, but they don't have to sunder anyway. Some magical items, especially powerful ones, explode when they are broken. Now most people aren't going to be able to remember what happens to what magic item when you destroy it, but if you know some of them blow up, are you really going to risk sundering it if you have no other option? Really, there are only two reasons to sunder. As a last resort of desperate characters, when nothing else seems to be working, or by arrogant characters, as an insult to others.
Mock26 01-01-07, 11:08 PM	There are three reasons I disagree with this: Why not just target the guy holding the thing? Break their sword only to have them pull out another weapon, or use more effective ways to disable them and take them out of the fight for the duration. There are tons of alchemical items, weapons, oils, potions, traps, or poisons that can do this and are safer to use than getting close enough to a PC to sunder their gear. Why break a magical item when you can just disarm it then sell or use it yourself later? NPCs are just a greedy as PC's if not more-so. This obviously isn't the thought process of a rust monster or ooze, but they don't have to sunder anyway. Some magical items, especially powerful ones, explode when they are broken. Now most people aren't going to be able to remember what happens to what magic item when you destroy it, but if you know some of them blow up, are you really going to risk sundering it if you have no other option? Really, there are only two reasons to sunder. As a last resort of desperate characters, when nothing else seems to be working, or by arrogant characters, as an insult to others. I somewhat agree with you. As a DM I would have no problem with sundering magic items. The caveat is that I would only do this every once in a while, and then only with a specific NPC. I might have several NPCs with this quirk, but they would be encountered at different times in the campaign. I don't see a problem with that. Who's to say why anyone does anything? Maybe they just like destroying things. It is easy to come up with a reason on why to do this. My problem with this particular DM (from the original post) is that he seemingly does it all the time. That just doesn't make sense.
Azar_of_Faerun 01-01-07, 11:29 PM	Can rings of the DMG type be worn as piercings as well? That might help to temporarily allay our problems.
PhaedrusXY 01-01-07, 11:32 PM	Pay double and have your magic items made "slotless". Then eat them. :D (Or have them implanted into your body) Similiarly, if you just wear them under your armor, it should prevent them from being sundered. You can't sunder armor, nor remove it in combat. (Except for a few rare monsters)
Saric 01-01-07, 11:37 PM	Sundering/Disarm are extremely viable tactics, and any intelligent villan would send his minions to destroy or take some items off his enemies before making a strike himself. Disarming and fleeing with an item is a great hit/run tactic that lowers the power level of the enemy. Destroying an item is also a good idea if it poses a grand threat to you and you see no possible use for it in the future. Now every creature doing it every encounter unless they are all super-geniuses and have detect magic and anyalyze dweomer active 24/7 when facing the pc's is a bad thing. A good rule of thumb that I use is that creatures of usually above average intellegence (12+) usually employ complex manuevers depending on the situation. A bad guy wants to win just as much as the good guys, However will spending his time beating on magic items (inanimate objects) help him gain more or less from the encounter? If the answer is no then its probably a bad idea as well.
ressurrector 01-02-07, 12:25 AM	Remember: detect magic can only tell if magic is present in a 5' square. It cannot tell if a specific item is magical, unless that item is alone in a 5' square. Ask your DM how the heck all the opponants are identifying these things as magical. Then have everyone grab a bushel of masterwork gear to tote around as alternate targets.
PhaedrusXY 01-02-07, 12:44 AM	Remember: detect magic can only tell if magic is present in a 5' square. It cannot tell if a specific item is magical, unless that item is alone in a 5' square. Ask your DM how the heck all the opponants are identifying these things as magical. Then have everyone grab a bushel of masterwork gear to tote around as alternate targets.I would bet 10:1 odds that this DM is metagaming, but it is possible. Arcane Sight Divination Level: Sor/Wiz 3 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Personal Target: You Duration: 1 min./level (D) This spell makes your eyes glow blue and allows you to see magical auras within 120 feet of you. The effect is similar to that of a detect magic spell, but arcane sight does not require concentration and discerns aura location and power more quickly. You know the location and power of all magical auras within your sight. An aura’s power depends on a spell’s functioning level or an item’s caster level, as noted in the description of the detect magic spell. If the items or creatures bearing the auras are in line of sight, you can make Spellcraft skill checks to determine the school of magic involved in each. (Make one check per aura; DC 15 + spell level, or 15 + one-half caster level for a nonspell effect.) If you concentrate on a specific creature within 120 feet of you as a standard action, you can determine whether it has any spellcasting or spell-like abilities, whether these are arcane or divine (spell-like abilities register as arcane), and the strength of the most powerful spell or spell-like ability the creature currently has available for use. Arcane sight can be made permanent with a permanency spell. Most sundering brutes probably wouldn't have a permanent Arcane Sight on them, though. ;)
ShadowDragon8685 01-02-07, 12:49 AM	Or, just tell the DM that his sunderizing blending ways are ruining the game for you guys. Seriously, it's not hard. Don't sunder, and they won't sunder. It makes things simpler, which is a virtue. Why is it a virtue? Because magical items in D&D are already disposables, we don't want them to be considered one-shot items when they're, you know, not. So just don't sunder. And the PCs won't sunder. It's not hard, it's simply following a gentleman's arrangement to make the game more fun for everyone. Especially the PCs. Again, your NPCs have a literally limitless amount of stuff; PCs only have what they take off the NPCs. If you keep taking it away, they're gonna get ****** off and discouraged. Also, Wealth-by-Level are not just reccomendations. This game predicates 70% of it's game balance on having appropriate wealth for your level. You really do need it.
pedro2112 01-02-07, 02:30 AM	Why not just target the guy holding the thing? Break their sword only to have them pull out another weapon, or use more effective ways to disable them and take them out of the fight for the duration. There are tons of alchemical items, weapons, oils, potions, traps, or poisons that can do this and are safer to use than getting close enough to a PC to sunder their gear. Depends. Attacking the "guy" holding the thing is probably what would happen 99.9% of the time. My example relates to specific instances where an intelligent foe knows what you wield and that if you it gets broken or taken away, he might have a chance of living. Let me reiterate, it must be done properly, using only the information and intelligence of the foe. Why break a magical item when you can just disarm it then sell or use it yourself later? NPCs are just a greedy as PC's if not more-so. This obviously isn't the thought process of a rust monster or ooze, but they don't have to sunder anyway. I can see that perhaps I wasn't clear in my earlier post. You seem to think that am advocating a lot of Sundering. No. But when it is proper (the foe believes if he doesn't sunder, he will not live), it should be used . A DM that doesn't do it when it is the only way a foe could possibly survive, is a bad DM, regardless of how long a PC saved up to buy the particular item. Some magical items, especially powerful ones, explode when they are broken. Now most people aren't going to be able to remember what happens to what magic item when you destroy it, but if you know some of them blow up, are you really going to risk sundering it if you have no other option? Again, if the foe has experience with exploding swords, then yes, he probably wouldn't sunder. Really, there are only two reasons to sunder. As a last resort of desperate characters, when nothing else seems to be working, or by arrogant characters, as an insult to others. I concur; but I would limit the latter example for reasons delineated by ShadowDragon
TarlSS 01-02-07, 03:45 AM	Sundering items is basically just a problem in D&D; items are too much of an asset to a character. If you look at similiar D20 systems with less extensive equipment lists, such as Star Wars or the like, sundering's not nearly the same problem- an awesome blaster might be fairly awesome, but an 'equipment dependant character' such as a gunslinger isn't rendered useless if he's got to use generic quality equipment.
Mock26 01-02-07, 04:16 AM	Also, Wealth-by-Level are not just reccomendations. This game predicates 70% of it's game balance on having appropriate wealth for your level. You really do need it. Inventing your own "facts" again to try and prove a point? Where ever did you get that 70% figure? Roll your percentile dice and just go with whatever came up? And, they are recommendations: Using that information, you can determine who much wealth a character should have based on her level. Should was italicized by me as I think that that is the operative word in that sentence. When you tell someone, "You should have X," that is a suggestion. That means that do not need to have it, but that it might be good for them to have it. That is a recommendation. I also think that they are recommendations because the tables don't take into account what players do with their money. If my 7th level character has donated 10,000 gp to the local temple of Thor and only has a few platinums in his pouch and nearly 9,000 gp of magical equipment, according to the wealth by level table, he only has the wealth of a 5th level character. Is the DM then obligated to somehow conspire to give me another 10,000 gp in treasure?
KurenaiYami 01-02-07, 05:32 AM	All of it. QFT. The fact that they are normally referred to as the Wealth by Level guidelines also helps show it is just a suggestion. Though wealth and equipment are a big part of strength for PC's, it is fairly easy to go around as a DM. Though if the DM is sending normal CR creatures against PCs with less wealth, it likely won't bode well for them.
GoofsterStud 01-02-07, 05:51 AM	1.) Wear numerous rings/neckelaces/etc... Magic Aura: Illusion (Glamer) Level: Brd 1, Magic 1, Sor/Wiz 1 Level: Brd 1, Magic 1, Sor/Wiz 1 Components: V, S, F Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Touch Target: One touched object weighing up to 5 lb./level Duration: One day/level (D) Saving Throw: None; see text Spell Resistance: No (The DM has no way to find out which is magical) You alter an item’s aura so that it registers to detect spells (and spells with similar capabilities) as though it were nonmagical, or a magic item of a kind you specify, or the subject of a spell you specify. If the object bearing magic aura has identify cast on it or is similarly examined, the examiner recognizes that the aura is false and detects the object’s actual qualities if he succeeds on a Will save. Otherwise, he believes the aura and no amount of testing reveals what the true magic is. If the targeted item’s own aura is exceptionally powerful (if it is an artifact, for instance), magic aura doesn’t work. 2.) Aurorum is your new best friend: Opponent shatters metal item, one full round gather pieces, weapon back to normal.
Fireclave 01-02-07, 06:00 AM	I always found it irksome that you can sunder rings, amulets, and other items worn on your person, but you can't sunder armor. Ask you DM to make all items worn on the body off limits for sundering. That would limit the list of sunderable items to weapons, shields, and other items that are carried (but not worn). That would probably protect the majority of your items.
Varia 01-02-07, 07:49 AM	Personally I think the idea of sundering anything besides major exposed items is silly. It amounts to called shots, which are otherwise not allowed in D+D. If you allow people to sunder small items like rings or brooches then why not eyes or ears? Same size, and equally "easy" to hit. Its silly. Shields, armor (yes I know you cant by the RAW), wielded weapons, and, to a lesser degree (ie- with an additional penalty), sheathed weapons, cloaks and helms ok, but anything more than that is a called shot in poor disguise and is against the spirit of D+D, IMO. However, since my opinion doesnt mean a whole bunch to your DM, how about this? Save your AoO. Sundering provokes an AoO. As soon as the DM's critter du jour attempts to sunder your item use your AoO to sunder his weapon. That should settle his hash for him. :)
Vaalingrade Ashland 01-02-07, 08:08 AM	Use Magic Aura to remove the magic aura on your magic stuff, then add extra, mundane ones, then DEMAND, in character, what the hell is wrong with the guy who is obessed with breaking your 30gp medallion/brooch/ring. Every time the DM does this, make a huge deal about it in character. Talk about the obvious mental deficiencies an inordinate amount of people you run into have -- thier sick 'breaking things' fetish. If the DM doesn't get the point, the next time he pulls this crap, anrily take off soe of your magic jewelry, throw it on the ground and shout "HERE! SAVE YOURSELF THE TIME, YOU SICKO!" the double move out of the encounter.
kelvinaw273 01-02-07, 09:08 AM	A lot has been made of wearing multiple rings, amulets etc. but not much has been said about what your DM is Sundering. If he is aiming at magical rings etc. then he is probably metagaming. If he is aiming at weapons, shields, wands and staves then ... well ... fair enough. Any wizard holding a wand in combat is likely holding some powerful weapon, so aiming for it is fair game, be it to disarm or to sunder. Likewise smashing an opponant's weapon or shield is a fair way to improve your odds of winning the fight, especially if they display unusual properties. The perennial question is, when does fighting clever become fighting dirty? The answer always seems to depend on who is doing it. In the classic Monk vs Fighter encounter, the Monk is best off using Sunder or disarm to break/remove the fighter's primary weapon and shield if he can. In fighter vs fighter there is less emphasis on tricks and more on simply dishing the damage out. In troll vs fighter, the troll is likely not smart enough to figure out that smashing the flamming sword is a good idea - he just leaps in and mauls! The key questions to ask are: 1) Is this being done gratuitously (ie every encounter)? 2) Is it being done by opponants who lack the intelligence or need to do so? 3) is anything other than obviously dangerous items being targeted? If the answer to all these three is YES, then you need to speak to your DM and explain your concerns.
OravennasBrother 01-02-07, 10:00 AM	Armor cannot be sundered by RAW. Reasonably you might convince the DM that anything worn under armor cannot be sundered. SO a fighter with armor and Magic Ring need fear only having their weapon/shield sundered. There are defenses against losing weapons/shields - Adamantium is quite hard and durable, larger base + (meaning a +4 Weapon rather than a +1 Shocking, Flaming Burst Weapon) on weapons and shields makes them more resistant to Sunder, even better Base Attack Bonus (step two in Sunder - opposed attack rolls) makes sunder harder. All the Blather about "Sunder is Unfair" falls into the classification of Whine. Read some Myths - Beowulf lost a magic sword fighting Grendel's Mother, Arthur lost a Sword (the one from the Stone IIRC) and had to get the Lady of the Lake to give him Excalibur, Attila supposedly lost becuse the magic sword he found broke in battle. Sunder is a good option for Fighters who have high BAB and lots of feats to spare.
wonlee76 01-02-07, 11:00 AM	Have all items you craft for yourself made out of adamantite. Adamantite rings, chains, weapons, etc. This may increase the survivability of those items against sunder unless every sundering bad guy is wielding adamantite weapons of course. Other options would be using magic to get a concealment type of bonus. Obscuring Mist is a 20% miss chance for everything including sunder attempts.
mlund 01-02-07, 02:09 PM	Sundering underexposed objects just hurts the verisimilitude of my game as a DM. Exposed objects are fair game, though. Sundering a cleric's holy symbol or a fighter's amulet of health from around his neck requires more accuracy than cutting open his throat. It simply won't happen at my table. Sundering a ring off of a wizard's finger is requires more accuracy and force than taking off the better part of his fingers. It simply won't happen at my table. If you want some sort of effect like that I'd recommend pulling it off in a grapple. Now sundering a help weapon, potion, shield, scroll, a mounted banner, backpack, belt pouch, bandoleer - those things I'm fine with. But anything that requires more finesse, accuracy and combat domination than gutting your opponent outright probably shouldn't be so easy. - Marty Lund
High Octane 01-02-07, 02:32 PM	Talk to your DM about houseruling a "Sundered weapon can be repaired" rule.
*Grim_Reaper* 01-02-07, 02:41 PM	Why can't armor be sundered in combat?
High Octane 01-02-07, 02:46 PM	Why can't armor be sundered in combat? Cause you are stabbing it anyway. Thats what an attack roll is.
Anaxander 01-02-07, 02:59 PM	Any advice for either outright having our DM stop the gear grinding or confronting him in person? :confused: First, ask him out of the game in a friendly and light-heartedly way why he does destroy that amount of treasure. If he doesn't get, inform him in a more serious manner that you and the other players don't like that so much gear is destroyed. If he still doesn't get it, there is not much you can do in a nice way.
OravennasBrother 01-02-07, 03:02 PM	sundering a help weapon, potion, shield, scroll, a mounted banner, backpack, belt pouch, bandoleer - those things I'm fine with. But anything that requires more finesse, accuracy and combat domination than gutting your opponent outright probably shouldn't be so easy. Probalby the best (complete, understandable and reasonable) description of DM discretion for Sunder I've seen of late.
Azar_of_Faerun 01-02-07, 07:35 PM	Recap: Last session had started off well enough - we were exploring the ruins of an elven outpost, but wouldn't you know it...we walked into an Anti-Magic field situated right in the barracks :rolleyes: The rogue was hit by a dart and went down, out from behind one of the bunks came a drow (supposedly a ranger, but we'll never know) who proceeded to rally his allies to attack us. TO make a long story short, it's currently me (warblade) and cleric being Aid Another grappled while they search for our magic items :mad: Oh and the Paladin? he's trying to fight off a handful of drow during his attempt to free us. *sigh*, I think this is joke, or he is trying to set us up for a huge reward in the new future. Either way it's becoming monotonous :)
ShadowDragon8685 01-02-07, 08:07 PM	So, instead of just KILLING YOU, they dogpile on top of you and search for your magic items so they can sunder them? And Drow are supposed to be greedy? What the... Shoot your DM. In the Face. With. A. Hammer.
PhaedrusXY 01-02-07, 09:37 PM	I would guess that they are going to just keep the items, not sunder them after they remove them. They're basically being mugged. :rofl:
solbergb 01-02-07, 10:07 PM	I posted something to this effect over on Magic and Spells, but i'll expand it here. In our group, the DM is fairly generous awarding treasure of the small sort - rings, amulets, broochs, clasps and the like. However, he has a strange fetish with destroying a little more than what we receive in his own form of balance. Consequentally we're at 75? to 80% of the recommended treasure for our levels. Any advice for either outright having our DM stop the gear grinding or confronting him in person? :confused: Well...that's pretty much it. You have two options. 1. Ask for more rewards to get you to the recommended treasure level. 2. Have him modify the CR system to account for your reduced wealth. We had something like this happen in a campaign of mine, where we were in an extended, attrition-like battle with foes who routinely moved any "loot" to the safest place, and we literally leveled several times beating down minions and the occasional lieutenant type, slowly stripping them of resources and options but almost never getting any treasure. By about level 12, we chatted with the DM about the fact that wealth is supposed to roughly double between 9 and 12, and in fact ours had decreased (due to use of expensive consumables, loss of an expensive weapon to a fear effect+enemy running off with dropped weapon, etc). His response was to increase the xp we earned for same level of challenge. (it would not have made sense story-wise to suddenly find a bunch of loot, nor would it have made sense to reduce the challenges...the task was what it was). He also made it possible to negotiate with NPC spellcasters for essentially free "buff" spellcasting in exchange for a cut of whatever loot we eventually got (this was much easier once we could teleport) as opposed to a strictly cash-and-carry basis per PHB. The combination of a bit of extra spellcasting plus a bit of extra XP made it work...we started making progress in the story. Sadly the campaign ended due to DM burnout about 1-2 adventures before the big payoff, but I'm confident the rewards would have stepped us right back on track or even kicked us a bit ahead of expected if we actually won. Had we not been in that situation though, he probably would have just arranged some encounters with classed humanoids that would have rapidly caught us up to expected wealth...it's simpler than dealing with rejiggering the CR system if you're doing more episodic adventures rather than a story arc with fixed (and growing over time if PC's do nothing) challenges that the PC's try/fail/retry until they are powerful enough or clever enough to find a way to succeed.
kelvinaw273 01-03-07, 04:23 AM	I would guess that they are going to just keep the items, not sunder them after they remove them. They're basically being mugged. :rofl: Very un-Drow like. They should be shooting you full of sleep-darts, stripping you (he got that much right) and then clapping you in chains for slavery and/or sacrifices.
OravennasBrother 01-03-07, 10:15 AM	Recap: ...we walked into an Anti-Magic field situated right in the barracks out from behind one of the bunks came a drow who proceeded to rally his allies to attack us. grappled while they search for our magic items So a Group of Drow casts AM Field to make taking down the party easier. Then they grapple to take your stuff. I must have gotten confused somewhere as I understood this thread was about issues with Sunder. Grapple is a Viable tactic for humanoids, particualrly large groups of same. One reason I like the Fighter class is all those feat trees DO have a use - they keep you viable in FAR more situations. OOH look I've got Improved Grapple, so I can throw these mooks aronud better than they expected. Perhaps Combat reflexes as well, so I can chop more of them as they try to begin grapples. If the Dm is swithcing up the opposition - someitmes they sunder, soetimes they trip, sometimes tehy grapple, then you have a Good DM who doesn't just GIVE you the win every fight.
ShadowDragon8685 01-03-07, 01:37 PM	The problem is that the DM is a dickweed who keeps targeting the player's items, not how he does it. Except that how he does it is METAGAMING. The PCs had Freedom of Movement up at the time, so, wham, random AM Field followed by a dogpile of drow.
DFoster 01-03-07, 07:35 PM	What is this about Freedom of Movement being in effect on the party? I don't see that mentioned in the post about the event.
Keldir 01-03-07, 07:47 PM	I was never really a big fan of Sunder as a DM, seemed pretty weaksauce.
goldjas 01-03-07, 09:13 PM	So a Group of Drow casts AM Field to make taking down the party easier. Then they grapple to take your stuff. I must have gotten confused somewhere as I understood this thread was about issues with Sunder. Grapple is a Viable tactic for humanoids, particualrly large groups of same. One reason I like the Fighter class is all those feat trees DO have a use - they keep you viable in FAR more situations. OOH look I've got Improved Grapple, so I can throw these mooks aronud better than they expected. Perhaps Combat reflexes as well, so I can chop more of them as they try to begin grapples. If the Dm is swithcing up the opposition - someitmes they sunder, soetimes they trip, sometimes tehy grapple, then you have a Good DM who doesn't just GIVE you the win every fight. This is starting to become a pet peeve of mine on the boards and about DnD in general. Freaking antimagic field. Doesn't anyone actually read wtf the spell does? Its 10 ft. centered around the caster. It lasts 10 minutes per level. It cannot be permanencied. wtf is up with all these 200 ft permanent antimagic fields DMs keep pulling out of their ass just to screw with the players?
Kitaki 01-03-07, 09:27 PM	1. Thou Shalt Touch None Other's Spellbook, unlessing that thou hast first killed him. 2. Thou Shalt Not Sunder. 3. Thou Shalt Not Disarm. Actaully I had fun one time with Disarm. I had a VoP Monk who was very good at disarming, my DM also house ruled that I get a bonus to intimidate against an enemy that I disarmed, basically I would grab their weapon, trow it away and keep telling them "You cannot win."
Mock26 01-03-07, 09:27 PM	This is starting to become a pet peeve of mine on the boards and about DnD in general. Freaking antimagic field. Doesn't anyone actually read wtf the spell does? Its 10 ft. centered around the caster. It lasts 1 minute per round. It cannot be permanencied. wtf is up with all these 200 ft permanent antimagic fields DMs keep pulling out of their ass just to screw with the players? I don't use permanent anti-magic areas of varying sizes in my campaign, but I do use permanent dead magic areas. However, they are not based on any spell. They are based on the Forgotten Realms novels and campaign setting from after the Time of Troubles. In that setting, I see no problem with various dead magic areas (or wild magic areas), but I don't use them every single adventure, but they have been in a fair number and one very large area was once integral to an entire adventure. But, I wouldn't pervert the anti-magic spell to do something stupid like the DM in question. It sounds to me like the sunder-happy DM has read this thread and is now changing his tactics. That's pretty sad. Again, I don't mind sundering the equipment or magic items of my players, every once in a while. But, to constantly give the group magic items and then take them away is just plain bad DMing. And, if I were to sunder the paladin's +56 flaming holy holy avenger of sheep summoning and lamb kabob making, I would at least make sure that shortly thereafter there was a decent replacement weapon available for him to find.
danielinthewolvesden 01-04-07, 01:31 AM	First off, the recommended treasure is just a recommendation. Second, it is a very smart move on the part of intelligent creatures to sunder what appears to be magical items. Magic items can be very powerful and it is a wise and tactical move to sunder such items. n. 1. It's not "just a recommendation"- the ECL of adventurers is predicated on them having treasure within one level of those tables. Any more than that, and the ECL or the party is off, meaning encounters should generate more EPs, if nothing else. 2. Do Adventurers normally sunder items? Very rarely. Why? Because they plan on winning and they want the loot. Thus, the foes should think the same way. They should see powerful items as a source of personal power and wealth, just as adventurers do. Now sure, once in a while you will have a Pally sunder some obviously EVIl weapon, or a fighter sunder the bow of a "5' step and shoot" archer, but in general PC's do not sunder and thus why would monsters?
Anaxander 01-04-07, 02:34 AM	Recap: Last session had started off well enough - we were exploring the ruins of an elven outpost, but wouldn't you know it...we walked into an Anti-Magic field situated right in the barracks :rolleyes: The rogue was hit by a dart and went down, out from behind one of the bunks came a drow (supposedly a ranger, but we'll never know) who proceeded to rally his allies to attack us. TO make a long story short, it's currently me (warblade) and cleric being Aid Another grappled while they search for our magic items :mad: Oh and the Paladin? he's trying to fight off a handful of drow during his attempt to free us. *sigh*, I think this is joke, or he is trying to set us up for a huge reward in the new future. Either way it's becoming monotonous :) You haven't talked to your DM since last time? Then you can complain here but it will have little effect, I fear.
Mock26 01-04-07, 02:40 AM	1. It's not "just a recommendation"- the ECL of adventurers is predicated on them having treasure within one level of those tables. Any more than that, and the ECL or the party is off, meaning encounters should generate more EPs, if nothing else. Those charts ARE a recommendation. "you can determine how much wealth a character should have based on her level." ""wealth by level" guideline." The operative words are should and guideline, both of which mean pretty much the same thing as a recommendation. 2. Do Adventurers normally sunder items? Very rarely. Why? Because they plan on winning and they want the loot. Thus, the foes should think the same way. They should see powerful items as a source of personal power and wealth, just as adventurers do. Now sure, once in a while you will have a Pally sunder some obviously EVIl weapon, or a fighter sunder the bow of a "5' step and shoot" archer, but in general PC's do not sunder and thus why would monsters? Why not quote the next point from my post that you quoted? Or didn't you even bother to read my entire post? If you had, you would have read this: Third, it is petty and childish of the DM to give and then take the items back. I can understand some opponents doing this, but not all. It is highly odd that nearly every single opponent out there feels the same way about magic items. Don't any of these opponents have the desire to simply kill the characters and take their magic items? As you can see, while I advocate the use of sunder as a fair tactic on the part of monsters and NPC's, I never said that they should do it all of the time. Next time have the decency to quote all the relevant parts and not just bit and pieces to try and prove your point. And, further on in the thread I added to my feeling on the occasional sundering of items to be OK by stating:As a DM I would have no problem with sundering magic items. The caveat is that I would only do this every once in a while, and then only with a specific NPC. I might have several NPCs with this quirk, but they would be encountered at different times in the campaign. I don't see a problem with that. Who's to say why anyone does anything? Maybe they just like destroying things. It is easy to come up with a reason on why to do this. My problem with this particular DM (from the original post) is that he seemingly does it all the time. That just doesn't make sense. Take care and have a great day.... ciao, john.
Falln 01-04-07, 04:37 AM	Our DM doesn't give much treasure. But he never destroys treasure, nor does he send thieves after our treasure. It's fine like that, when we find something special, we take good care of it. We (players) like our characters, soe when they find something real usefull, and the party allows it, the item becomes allmost a part of the character. And even years later we say: that ranger with his glowing armor, or the mage who tricked everyone with his ring of charisma. Treasure is something that adds to the campaign. If the DM think he's giving enough treasure, then it's his choice. DM's don't like player who complain about treasure and experience all the time. If the DM thinks he's mae a mistake (like our DM once gave us a flying carpet) then he can simply explain this to the players. And our carpet got burned by an evil mage ;-)