Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ShadowDragon8685 12-26-04, 01:47 AM	While I was reading my Planar Handbook and looking at Vlaakith the Lich-Queen, the soloution to a lich became apparent. All you need to do is sneak a monk or rogue with mad grapple up to her and go "GET HER!" The monk/rogue then proceeds to pin this weak-arse she-wolf - she only has 16 STR - while the rest of the party hauls out Maces of Disruption and start smackin' da ***** up. Eventually she'll roll a natural one and, by <insert anti-undead deity's name here>'s grace, snuff it. Then you get to loot all those tasty goodies and capture her artifacts for the purpose of destruction. Of course, then you have to find some way of getting out of Tu'narath. But then, if you've got this far, chances are you had a backdoor to her throne room, or you've already slaughtered all the real opposition on your way in.
Derren S. 12-26-04, 04:10 AM	Bad plan. 1. How do you come near her with your maces of disruption? 2. What do you do when she Dimension Doors out of the grapple?
Bringslite 12-26-04, 04:15 AM	The party I play in came up against a Lich last weekend. We are A lvl 6/4 wizard/fighter, lvl 6/4 cleric/fighter, and a lvl 10 ranger. I think he was a sample Lich right out of the MM. We were not expecting him and had a real tough time at first. By the time we got through his minions most of our buffs were wearing off. We had no magic bludgening weapons and were doing about 3-4 dmg per hit. We fought him and he would get away, fought him and he got away, etc... Finally we cornered him and I (the wizard) remmembered to tell the cleric to use cure spells on him. Those worked great! He missed disintegrating me by a 1! Very tense battle though.
JabberWocky 12-26-04, 06:05 AM	I may be wrong, but you still have to take care of that little phylactery problem or else she's just back with a vengeance, even if you use those magic maces. Also, anyone with arcane talent and a brain isn't going to fall for the "OMG I R TEH HELPLESS WHEN GRAPPLD!" thing.
Derren S. 12-26-04, 07:03 AM	Especially when you have to make a save vs. paralyzation every round as you are definately touching the lich when grappling.
ShadowDragon8685 12-26-04, 03:15 PM	1: The Monk has her grappled immobile. 2: Dimensional Anchor. 3: (The paralize problem): The Monk is wearing a Ring of Freedom of Movement. No more Paralize problem. 4: Phylactary is a problem, but you can use divination to hunt it down.
Derren S. 12-26-04, 03:18 PM	1. Still Spell 2. Stilled Dispell Magic/Ghostform 3. The Lich can have one too. Your tactic of grappeling a caster is eally old and is in no way guranteed to work. Getting close to a caster isn't that easy first and foremost and there are many other things one can do against beeing grappled.
ShadowDragon8685 12-26-04, 03:28 PM	1: That's true. But then, it woulden't be any fun if she didn't get to do ANYTHING in return. 1/2: Another wizard is standing by ready to Counterspell, with the Improved Counterspell feat. 3: Yes, but then the Monk can use his Improved Disarm to snatch it off her bony finger. Grappling a caster is the most effective thing you can do to them, short of popping an Antimagic field on them, then having the Monk walk in and start beating the crap out of our now stripped of DR lich with his Flurry. But then, that woulden't be too fun, would it?
Derren S. 12-26-04, 03:32 PM	You can't disarm rings, only weapons/things which are hold (you don't hold rings, you wear them). A freedom of movement, either ring or spell ruins the whole plan. First the monk has to get into grapple which has hard with a good caster. Also the Dimensional ancho also has to be casted without beeing dispelled. Then you have to successfull counterspell the lichs dispells and hope that the lich doesn't has any quickened spells to throw arround. And finaly you must hope that the lich is totally unprepared for getting into grapple.
Bringslite 12-26-04, 04:02 PM	Yeah, our Dm played the standard lich horribly and it was still a challenge for us. Still didn't find the phylactery so he will be back. The Lich Queen would have tons of defences going like project image, fire shield, etc,, etc... I can't see it as being all that easy, in anyway, if played well.
Shard of Suzail 12-26-04, 04:21 PM	This reminds me of Azalin, the Ravenloft Lich. As with any high level caster, which liches certainly are, they are usualy protected by a hefty rack of contingency spells. It's all very nice to view a lich as a "big skeleton with a crown", but in fact they are "mind bendingly tough wizards who happen to be undead too". As to the whole phylactery issue, well, its just downhill from there really. Best not to mess with them at all. Those contingencies, if done well, will never let you get so close to a lich as to grapple it. You just have to look at one funny and there's defensive magics going off all over the place.
ShadowDragon8685 12-26-04, 05:10 PM	Derren, read the rules regarding Disarm attempts again. You CAN remove things like rings. And as I said, you can start throwing Antimagic Field or even Disjunction around, if you want to screw with this lich. Shard, read the rules on Contingency again. You may have ONE contingency spell on you at a time. This isen't 2nd ed. And no-one, not even the Lich Queen of the Githyanki, can have defensive buffs up 24/7, or you'll have no spells left for when they really DO find you. And most liches ARE unprepared for a grapple. No ranks in Escape Artist, she dosen't have a Ring of Freedom of Movement, and a 16 STR. Any Monk of level 18, 19, 20 or 21 can easily beat her down consistently on grapple checks. Just get her down, Pin her, prevent her from moving/talking, and now she's in real trouble. Then just haul out the Maces of Disruption and start whacking away. Then take her loot and run. Get the artifacts destroyed to sever the pact between Githyanki and Red Dragons, and tick her off royally, if not destroying her (woulden't be surprised if she'd be arrogant to have her crown be the Phylactary,) and then rock on. I don't think the Githyanki are going to come after you. You did, after all, just wipe out the single biggest badass in their arsenal, and depending on how you did it, you cut your way through all of their badasses to do it.
Shard of Suzail 12-26-04, 05:14 PM	Hmm, fair enough, didnt know that had changed from second ed. Crikey, they really did power down casters, didnt they.
ShadowDragon8685 12-26-04, 05:36 PM	I think they had a problem with the Wish spell word-lawyers turning their attentions to other pursuits and creating Contingencies that a DM coulden't beat without flagrently metagaming, or even WITH flagrent metagaming. That's why a Lich's best bet would be a Contingency set to teleport his ass the hell out as soon as any Disruption weapon came within 90 feet.
mcnoo 12-26-04, 06:35 PM	am i the only one thinking "antimagic field"? You have a bloody monk, what more could you wish for?
ShadowDragon8685 12-26-04, 06:54 PM	No Mcnoo, you are not. I mentioned A-M field a few times.
Derren S. 12-26-04, 08:01 PM	To disarm a ring, you must pin the wearer and you can't pin someone who has a ring of freedom of movement (unless you are a big dragon). Also you can have multiple contagincies with the craft contigent spell feat. And sure, you might be able to grapple the lich queen, when you supriser her after you batteled you way through numerous lvl ~14 giths and red dragons. Unless the DM desperatly wants you to succeed I don't see how you plan will work (at least work as easily as you describe it).
obrysii 12-26-04, 08:24 PM	Meh. The easiest way would just to hire a pair of Great Gold Wyrms to take her out. Will cost a lot, but easier than having to risk death. Even a single Great Gold Wyrm could take her out, so a pair shouldn't have too much a problem.
Melpomene 12-26-04, 08:24 PM	1.) You can say "nothing can hurt a high-level wizard because X" all day. Really, you can. It's fun. Contingency is a great spell, and with all the other spells out there, it makes for some great combinations. ...and yet.... somehow.... no one knows why... high-level wizards do die. It happens, from time to time. I'v seen it. So, take that as you will. 2.) Grappeling any spellcaster is a worthwhile endevour. Grappling, in general, is an undderated tactic, mostly because player charicters are set in a "I'm medium-sized" sort of world. I would recomend, against a litch, to use manacles and a gag, as it saves time, energy, and saves. 3.) I had a party who defeated the generaic litch from the MM by grappeling it. A raging barbarian was the focus of that assualt, and, while it did cost him his life, it also gave the party enough time to both find and break the phylactory. 4.) Remember, certain diety/artifact level powers and bric-a-brac destroy souls, which means that even if you can't find a phylactory, you can slay a litch. For example, banishing a bound litch to Voidstone Field (my favourite place to sen something I never want to see again)
Hammerhead 12-26-04, 08:30 PM	What if the lich had freedom of movement?
Ichor Spellka 12-27-04, 06:42 PM	While I agree that grappling is one of the better ways to defeat a high level mage, the Lich Queen would not be that easy. See, the githyanki see her as the mother of their race. So much so that most willingly sacrifice themselves to her power once they reach level 16. So, you'd have to battle your way through a whole lot of suicidal githyanki to get there. And let's not forget, with the Expanded Psi handbook, githyanki are as likely to become psions as they are fighters. That said, you'll have to deal with a bunch of Seers who would alert the Lich Queen that you're coming before hand. Also, you wouldn't catch the Lich Queen alone. Soulknives are pretty handy if you bring up an antimagic field. Even if you did succeed, every last githyanki in existence would hunt you, forever. If you thought stealing a silver sword was bad, hoo boy are you in for a lesson. You can't be ready for it all the time. To top it off, even if you do destroy the phylactery, I'm pretty sure some githyanki psions and wizards will gain enough power to return their beloved Queen to existence as soon as they can.
ShadowDragon8685 12-27-04, 07:14 PM	You're right. Every Githyanki at 16th level sacrifices themselves to her. That means that the only REAL opposition a level 25 party will have are the red dragons and the lich queen herself. The rest of the 15 or less leveled Gith will be a mass pushover. And as for those Soulknives: I play by the Magic = Psionics rules, to keep everything nice and level. Therefor, Antimagic field should (read should, haven't fully read up the entry on tsoulknives yet,) work on the Soulknives. Even if it hasen't, a Fighter in Mechanus Gear of Total Fortification and with a +5 Tower Shield has very little to worry about from Soulknives. As a DM, I DO want my players to win. I won't hand them the victory... But you bet your ass I'd be cheering with the rest of them when they take the BBEG down.
armygamer26 12-27-04, 08:55 PM	/RANT Psshh... That is your problem right there... You WANT your players to win. How are you supposed to fairly run encounters for the bad guy when you secretly want the players to win. I want the players to lose, maybe not all the time, and maybe not lose as far as a TPK, but, mark my words, I want players to fear for their characters. I think that it MAJORLY takes away from the game if the characters know that they are going to walk away with their lives. /ENDRANT As far as the grappling weakness of a Lich, it is not that big of a deal. Liches are powerful, and there are plenty of ways which you can even the score. Lich with unbelievably high init bonus... I am quite sure that a Lich with all of his Int will be able to easily tell which character is going to come grab him, and can take him out before he even gets close. Take away the numbers advantage... Sure, a lone Lich looks like a great thing to go grab ahold of so your friends can pound on it... But... What about a Lich that has a few friends...? And, the Lich is a template... How about an Ogre Mage Lich... Good luck grappling that... Or, as this is such a "problem" for spellcasters, how about a polymorph contingency for the Lich to turn into something REALLY big...? Go ahead and try grappling with a Gargantuan creature... Not going to happen. All in all, weaknesses like that only exist if you allow them to exist. If your players are creative, be more creative, and for god's sake, quit wanting them to win. Boo-hoo, they might have to make new characters...
Requiem, First Rebirth 12-27-04, 08:57 PM	One thing that makes liches particularily dangerous is that some of the requirements to make it to the race is being a spellcaster class... and in D&D I can do ANYTHING I FCKING WANT WITH SPELLS!
SnowbearK 12-27-04, 10:46 PM	Easy? If it's easy, your DM's a moron. (or you've just walked into a trap)
Count Arioch the 28th 12-28-04, 03:41 AM	And as for those Soulknives: I play by the Magic = Psionics rules, to keep everything nice and level. Therefor, Antimagic field should (read should, haven't fully read up the entry on tsoulknives yet,) work on the Soulknives. Even if it hasen't, a Fighter in Mechanus Gear of Total Fortification and with a +5 Tower Shield has very little to worry about from Soulknives. You need to read up the psihandbook again. 1. Psi=magic is the assumption of the D&D game. 2. Soulknive's weapon specifically mentions an anti-magic field affecting it, it works for one round, then the soulknife can start making chekcs to bring it up anyway. They have to beat a chack of some sort, but it can be done. You're right about the fighters having little to worry about from soulknives though, it will be kinda hard to hit them.
ShadowDragon8685 12-28-04, 04:27 AM	A Fighter in Mechanus Gear of Total Fort and with a +5 Tower Shield has very little to worry about in melee, short of the The Tarrasque. He's like a freaking tank. :)
Lorentz 12-28-04, 05:02 AM	If you are a mid- to high-level monk, thx to your ki-powers your unarmed strike counts as a magic weapon, doesn't it ?! Since an unarmed strike is bludgeoning, the lich's DR doesn't work. Or do I miss something ?!
Shard of Suzail 12-28-04, 02:58 PM	Armygamer raises a very important point and one that is often forgotten. A lich is a very, very intelligent person and that, in itself, makes it a dangerous foe. Now, a Gm is well within his rights to alter a lich's tactics and preparations *in anticipation* of a less intelligent character's moves. Thus, a lich, being so cunning and tactically wise, would have worked out the likely day, place and style of an attack before it lands. "Oh, yes, the Magical Spear of Morlin...i had suspected that one day, someone might use that against me...you will find that it has no power here". Or "Oh, indeed, i had considered that a grappling monk may well be the more likely foe to strike at me in this lunar month...it would seem my calculations were spot on...which is why you cannot move, my helpless friend". Or even... "The lich Wizard Garnash is not present at this time. I am a mere replica. By all means, grapple me more, for I am both sticky and explosive and will shortly teleport both you and myself to the elemental plane of acid, should i not be destroyed in the meantime. Garnash sends his regrets that he cannot be present to witness your demise, but he has potions to brew". *** When someone is staggering around with an int in the thirties or more and a hefty whack of tactical skills, then, unless a player character is similarly set up, the gm should at least once in each combat, completely change something to the lich's favour (if he is even there at all). Being a super tough monk is one thing, but being a reclusive bookworm of epic proportions is just as fearsome if the GM knows his stuff. The Zelazny "Amber" books and the game based upon them covered this very well. One of the best examples was a pc who, while invisible, attacked an npc who was a tactical genius. The npc parried him and struck back. When the player asked for an explanation he was told this. "Character X is so tactically cunning that he works out the most likely times and places for invisible opponents to attack him. Every so often, when you are not around, he will parry for seemingly no reason. It just happens that this time, the odds came up and there you were."
ShadowDragon8685 12-28-04, 03:31 PM	And to me, that sounds like blatent metagaming on the part of the GM. Unless the Lich-Queen is aware an attack is imminant and has time to prepare, she has on her what the Planar Handbook says she has on her. If the players sneak attack her in her own castle, having bypassed all defenses and not raised the alert, she's just as capable of being caught by surprise as anyone else. If she KNOWS they're coming for her, days in advance, and considers them a legitimate threat, then she might adapt. But if she only has a half hours' warning when they start cutting their way through Tu'narath, then she has few options. Flee, or make hasty defenses.
Melpomene 12-28-04, 04:44 PM	1.) I wish some people would read the whole thread first. Well, alright, I wish they would read my posts especially, but that isn't here nor there. There is much circular logic. 2.) Tactical capacity and forsight has less to do with intellegence and more to do with wisdom. I'm sure the Queen has both, I'm just saying... 3.) At some point, someone has to draw the line saying, "this is what magic she actually has prepared." If you assume that the Queen, or any spellcaster, has all the possible enchantments they can cast somewhere on thier body, you find some rather farcical situations. 4.) The Queen, as well as any other quasi-deitical being (archdemons, Asmodeus, etc.), will have full compliments of guards, as well as the support of thier entire nation. This does mean it would be hard. It does not mean she is immune to assasinations. 5.) The players could take her out, but it would be better if she was first deposed, then had a new power put in place. 6.) The Queen would have access to a wide variety of magical items, as well as spells which could make life hard for assasins. However, being completely paranoid about assasins all the time where you would be sleeping with anti-assasin staffs at your bedside is a sign of both a weak ruler and of mental ill-health.
Cravensson 12-28-04, 05:36 PM	Everybody is forgetting to factor in the biggest problem with fighting the Lich Queen. It isn't anything about the Lich Queen herself. It's that screaming horde of Githyanki that anybody who wants to kill the Lich Queen is going to have to fight in order to get near to her. If you can somehow manage to kill all of them, sure, that one lich is going to be no problem. I'm sure, however, that she has plenty of high-level bodyguards that really don't want to *let* that monk grapple with her.
ShadowDragon8685 12-28-04, 05:59 PM	But she dosen't. That's the beauty of it. Every Githyanki of 16th level gets killed by the lich queen, vamped for some sort of soul energy that dosen't make any difference in her combat ability, apparently. So there will be no high-level guards. The highest level Gith guards she can have are level 15, because she's so paranoid she snuffs out any Githyanki who gets above level 15. Which means a party of her CR will have absoloutly no trouble whatsoever hacking their way through her non-dragon minions. And probably little trouble hacking through her dragons. And the book does detail what spells she prepares every day. :)
Derren S. 12-28-04, 06:28 PM	May I ask which CR she has? A party fighting through numerous (50+) lvl 10-15 giths and multiple red dragons must be very high into epic. This is no computer game where you face 3 enemies at a time. They all attack at once.
Yoho1.5 12-28-04, 08:01 PM	If you want to, you could get Dungeon 100 and playtest your theory. "The Lich Queen's Beloved" by Christopher Perkins is one friggin tough adventure. It's designed for four 18th level characters. "Spoiler alert" code red "spoiler alert" The lich queen is a 25th level wizard (CR 28) with the "crown or corruption" a major magic item, and yeah she does kill 16 level githyanki, and then she turns them into special undead using her "crown" and they forever serve her as a faithful undead bodyguards along with multiple adult fiendish red dragons. Did I mention that she sits on a throne that casts: circle of death, power word kill, mass sugestion, mind fog and scare as a 25th level caster. Her phylactery is a totally damage resistant sarcophagaus that can only be opened by the symbol of Vlaakith which is in four pieces and each piece is hidden somewhere in her fortess with a friggin tough guardian. Its not impossible to kill her, but I've seen a few characters die trying.
Phrennzy 12-28-04, 08:29 PM	My favorite part of the thread is the idea that you could sneak past a nation of githyanki and red dragons and into the chamber of thier Queen/Goddess and assault her without her having a chance to make any preparations. I mean, how close do you think you can get to George Bush before getting caught and the alarm sounded? ANd half the country hates that guy - imagine how easily alarms would go off in a country/realm that loved him? Did I just compare the President to the Lich-Queen? And unfavorably?
armygamer26 12-28-04, 09:48 PM	And to me, that sounds like blatent metagaming on the part of the GM. Unless the Lich-Queen is aware an attack is imminant and has time to prepare, she has on her what the Planar Handbook says she has on her. If the players sneak attack her in her own castle, having bypassed all defenses and not raised the alert, she's just as capable of being caught by surprise as anyone else. If she KNOWS they're coming for her, days in advance, and considers them a legitimate threat, then she might adapt. But if she only has a half hours' warning when they start cutting their way through Tu'narath, then she has few options. Flee, or make hasty defenses. THAT IS NOT blatant metagaming on the part of the DM... First off, there IS NO SUCH THING. Now a 25th level spellcaster... I am quite sure that she has ALL sorts of scrying enchantments on her lair as well. Just think of trying to take out the head of security at a MAJOR casino, which has cameras every 5 feet, ok... Yeah, sneaking up is REALLY going to happen. And yes, she would know what you are going to do. Any Lich should be VERY, VERY difficult to kill, and this one damn near impossible. But, have fun trying!
ShadowDragon8685 12-28-04, 10:35 PM	When the DM deliberately designs an encounter to kill his party, taking tactically into consideration everything he knows about the party, even though the enemy would not - that is Metagaming.
Melpomene 12-28-04, 10:59 PM	1.) A full and productive day for a ruler of any kind is not "let's use scry magic to see if anyone in the multiverse is planning to assisinate me." Even the gods in D&D aren't omnicient, and even devoting a few Legend Lores each day is both incomplete and a waste of time and talent except for the most paranoid of rulers. 2.) A party of a good level can also do all the same things she can do. They can tripple-layer magic power; including teleport, dimentional anchor, greater dispelling, control undead, and wish. They could probably wish her to Kord's personal wresling room if they really wanted to. But, none of that has to do with grappling her once you get to her. 3.) My favourite metagame trick is also effective in this case (I think, depending on the Queen's antimagic preferences). Namely, a Spontaniously Quickened Greater Teleport. A creature (usually a cadre of Inevidables if I'm metagaming) can voip in, then take an attack action action. Holding her hostage in a grapple is a nice way to bypass guards. 4.) You could rain voidstones on her temple stronghold, too, but it has nothing to do with grappling.
Yoho1.5 12-29-04, 12:10 AM	I'd never say that the lich queen is undefeatable, but anyone that thinks that you can scry and fry her should read dungeon mags take on her fortress, it is made with tormented souls so she immediately knows of presence of anyone entering the fortress. She can also commmunicate with everycreature in the fortress, and automatically knows when she is scryed upon. She protects her where abouts with a series of screen spells. Using passwall, etheral jaunt, or simliar spells to go though walls or ceilings forces a DC 28 will save or go insane as per insanity spell. Any attack on the Lich-queen without knowning her exact location, turns into a hackfest thought her trap ladden fortress and minions. Chris Perkins Lich Queen adventure reads like Gary Gyax's Tome of Horrors, funner to DM than Play.
ShadowDragon8685 12-29-04, 12:53 AM	All reasons that I'm glad I don't give much of a damn about what Dragon magazine thinks, eh? :)
Count Arioch the 28th 12-29-04, 03:08 AM	Well, it's also the only published adventure featruing Vlaakith, so it's the colsest thing to canon we have.
The Simbul 12-29-04, 04:27 PM	First off, the Lich Queen’s INT score it’s 32, not 3. Given that discrepancy, one would assume she would actually react to threats as if she had the INT score she is printed with. Grappling a spellcaster is the oldest trick in the book, not some ingeniously clever tactic restricted to the few. That said, I would imagine any spellcaster who achieves 25 levels of experience would be capable of dealing with any such situation appropriately. As for specifics; You aren’t going to sneak up on the Lich Queen. She wears a robe of eyes, and is surrounded by servant dragons, all of which have Blindsense. Of course this is assuming you actually reach her throne room, which I imagine is not something one would find easy access into and out of. As a 25th level spellcaster, with access to Epic Wondrous Items, Wish spells, and the resources of an entire city at her command, there is no reason to assume that her Palace would somehow not be enshrouded with the standard repertoire of wards against divination, teleportation, or even simply walking in. I must say it is unfortunate that you utterly discount “The Lich Queen’s Beloved” adventure details, especially when the Planar handbook specifically cites that adventure as its source for their information on the Lich Queen. Even without the magical defenses pointed out in that origin source material, any spellcaster who doesn’t have the minimal protections against intrusion within her demesnes, probably would never have achieved any degree of power, nor would she manage to rule over her entire city for more than a millennia. Attempting to assail the palace or city itself, and in the process wipe out her entire retinue of guards and followers, is going to attract her attention, and yield to her enough time to either counteract or mount an escape. Should you actually encounter her, I fail to imagine a scenario where she isn’t allowed to cast a single spell, use a single ability, or call upon any of the menagerie of artifact powers to mount a defense. The Astral Plane automatically quickens all spells cast on it, which means none of her spells or spell-like abilities will provoke an attack of opportunity from the monk or other grapplers. She can use Dimension Door as a spell-like ability three times per day, and she can quicken a dispel magic to take out a Dimensional anchor. Alternatively, even under a dimensional anchor she can still use her Plane Shift spell-like ability to send her grappling opponent to the Negative Energy Plane (ouch). The will save isn’t that much of a detracting point, since the chances of the monk failing his save are no better than the Queen failing a save vs. disruption. Of course actually ensnaring her with the Dimensional Anchor is another matter, since she would more than likely cast one of her numerous Spell Turning spells long before you come within medium spell range of her. I am also curious to see how the Wizard can manage to counter every magical counterattack she can muster despite that he would obviously have exhausted much of his daily repertoire in the party’s attempts to wipe out a city full of guards and retainers. Ad-hoc Antimagic Items in the possession of a Monk is nothing more than ridiculous power gaming, and if the players have full access to non-core magic items, then the Lich Queen should be perfectly entitled to make full use of her own crafting resources to be prepared for any such eventuality. If non-spell trigger/spell-completetion antimagic items exist in the game, then every spellcaster worth their components will have aqquired or researched the means to deal with them. Of course she can still make full use of her Artifacts vs an Antimagic Field, whilst the PC's magical defenses against such attacks would wink out. Attempts to take out her active spells or active magical effects via Dispel Magic or Greater Dispel Magic will fail due to caster level caps for those spells, and the use fo Mordenkainens Disjunction isnt reccommended either, specifically in the presence of artifacts and when your entire straegy for slaying her revolves around someone rolling a 1 on their saving throw. As for her Phylactery, I would certainly love to know the name of the Divination spell you plan to use, since there isn’t a single divination spell in the entire PHB that can lead you to an object you’ve never touched or seen before, and even if you invented an ad-hoc non-core spell that could do so, there is absolutely no reason why the Lich Queen, with access to Craft Epic Wondrous Item and Wish spells, could not augment her Phylactery to block divinations by means similar to a mindblank spell. For all the characters know, her Phylactery could be in a sealed Demiplane, or a Living Vault on the other side of the cosmos. In terms of arguments of a “metagaming” DM who might actually play the Lich Queen at a fraction of her INT, rather than a witless rag-doll who stands there waiting for someone to grapple her, I would imagine the entire process of looking up an NPC’s statistics and devising an entire strategy for slaying them based off the characters “officially listed” STR mod, lack of escape artist skill ranks, and her list of typical prepared spells some how doesn’t fit that exact same description????????? :looloo:
The Simbul 12-29-04, 05:12 PM	P.S. As a swift action the Lich Queen can reverse the grapple, or just slam you into a nearby wall, using her Telekinesis spell-like ability, at a base attack bonus equal to her caster level + her spellcasting ability mod in place of STR. As per the S.R.D. all Spells and spell-like abilities are quickened on the astral plane, and spell-like abilities cannot be counterspelled. Alternatively, she can use the Telekinesis ability to grapple, bullrush, or violently thrust the counterspelling mage, taking him out of comission long enough to cast a spell of her own (swift action) to banish the dimensional anchor, slay her grapplers, or simply abscond via a Wish spell.
Yoho1.5 12-29-04, 06:08 PM	The Lich Queen is pretty kick ass, and her minions are tough. But a well prepared 18th level party could beat her, and grappleing will help, a bit, destorying her phylactery is another story, when you have 32 int and a millenia to figure out how to protect it, you get pretty creative. The lich queen has also used several carefully worded wishes so that her magic items go with her when you beat her, so she is ready for action when her body and soul returns in d10 days. TLQB adventure has her phylactery protected by several halfdragon githyanki (red of course) and a two headed great wyrm, as well as several freaken tough spells of course. I can imagine many parties beating her only to be stuffed by failing to destory her phylactery.
Melpomene 12-29-04, 06:18 PM	Well, if you manage to hack and slash through the guards and the dragons, then publicly remove the queen by forcing her to flee or by killing her mortal shell, she's going to be hard-pressed to win re-election, even as an incumbant, and especially if the party is also Gith'. That is, she loses if she can't kill the invaders, phylactory or teleports aside. Also, a party able to contend with her might (should) also have a counter-force of rebels and good-dragons to tie-up the guards. Party of four shouldn't be alone in a massive spearhead coup. Lastly, again, if party matches CR, they should be able to take her. It is the way of things. After lastly, none of the above have anything to do with grappling.
Yoho1.5 12-29-04, 06:31 PM	I forgot, the phylactery is invisable and has a sequester spell cast on it so it cannot be seen with divinations, and its in the middle of a permenant prismatic sphere with forbidance cast on the area and an antipathy, which prevents Lawful Good creatures from approaching, is cast on it. Good luck to all those that are about to embark on a quest to destory the lich queen, you'll need it. ;)
Melpomene 12-29-04, 08:09 PM	I forgot, the phylactery is invisable and has a sequester spell cast on it so it cannot be seen with divinations, and its in the middle of a permenant prismatic sphere with forbidance cast on the area and an antipathy, which prevents Lawful Good creatures from approaching, is cast on it. Good luck to all those that are about to embark on a quest to destory the lich queen, you'll need it. ;) Scroll: MdJ x 4. *cough*
Yoho1.5 12-30-04, 12:47 PM	Of course you have all the answers Melpomene, I'm spoiling the entire adventure for you. I haven't DMed the entire thing, some players were tricked by the false phylactery. :P Yeah sure a MDJ could solve some of your problems but the sarcophagus the phylactery is in is impervious to all spells and completely damage resistant, it can only be opened by the lich queen or a four part key. I like TLQB, its a fitting challange for 18th level and contains enough xp to finish up at 20th level, or die heroically trying. A half-decent DM could make the players feel like they really worked for their levels, provided they haven't read the adventure, or have been given all the spoilers. ;)
Melpomene 12-30-04, 01:56 PM	It's always a good idea to keep six or seven scrolls of MdJ x4 on you at all times. Plus, have the ability to open a rift to VsF. ^_^
Phrennzy 12-30-04, 03:52 PM	First off, the Lich Queen’s INT score it’s 32, not 3. Given that...<snip>...In terms of arguments of a “metagaming” DM who might actually play the Lich Queen at a fraction of her INT, rather than a witless rag-doll who stands there waiting for someone to grapple her, I would imagine the entire process of looking up an NPC’s statistics and devising an entire strategy for slaying them based off the characters “officially listed” STR mod, lack of escape artist skill ranks, and her list of typical prepared spells some how doesn’t fit that exact same description????????? :looloo: :inlove:
mythandra 12-30-04, 06:04 PM	And to me, that sounds like blatent metagaming on the part of the GM. Unless the Lich-Queen is aware an attack is imminant and has time to prepare, she has on her what the Planar Handbook says she has on her. If the players sneak attack her in her own castle, having bypassed all defenses and not raised the alert, she's just as capable of being caught by surprise as anyone else. If she KNOWS they're coming for her, days in advance, and considers them a legitimate threat, then she might adapt. But if she only has a half hours' warning when they start cutting their way through Tu'narath, then she has few options. Flee, or make hasty defenses. Blatant metagaming? Really? So you're telling me you can possibly conceive how intelligent a 31 int is? To play a 31 int, you're going to have to metagame.
Yoho1.5 12-30-04, 09:09 PM	Now back to the disscusion on grappling, its not that easy I don't the lich queen will standstill and wait for your average intelligence monk to come get her. On the astral plane everyone can fly at 10' per point of int with perfect movement. The Lich Queen has a base move of fly 310' (perfect maneuverablity) and with every spell auto quickened on the astral plane she could fly in cast Horrid Wilting and fly off. Your average meat shields would be too dumb to keep up, leaveing the only the wizards (grapple poor classes) capable of engaging the Queen in hand-to-hand. Its unlikely that any combat with the Lich Queen will involve grappling. As to playing up to the Queen's 31 intelligence, the players have an avantage over the DM as there is simply more brains to devote to combating a lich than the DM has to out think the players. In order to level the playing field I think that a DM has to restrict the players with low int characters to strict time limits for a round, while taking all the time in the world when it comes to the Liches turn. Also the DM should consult this board and other DMs for sneaky ideas and have a round by round plan for the queen. The lich queen has had a milliena to think about tactics, so having counters for obvious weaknesses like maces of disruption, or grappling should be standard and should not be thought of as metagaming.
Melpomene 12-30-04, 09:31 PM	IIRC, the flyability trait of the AP was lost in DMG3.5, replaced with SDG. Therefor, the best anyone can do is fall in a given direction, and all falls are at the same speed.
SnowbearK 12-30-04, 10:57 PM	[insert whiny mocking voice here] "blatant metagaming by the DM" :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: The DM is the ONLY person who SHOULD be metagaming. That is, after all, part of the job. You know, the part where they create the world, play all the non-player parts, and most importantly, keep the story going. If the story calls for the survival of a given character, whether PC or NPC, then that character will survive pretty much anything -- as long as it falls within the realm of plausibility. Given 5 minutes time to think about a given situation, I can set up a plausible escape for any lich. Hell, it's actually harder to set up plausible escapes for non-magic using characters.
Aeromus 12-31-04, 01:29 AM	I disagree ShadowD, According to the games rules a 36 int would be about 16 points above Eistein, Di Vinci ect. Throwing a "well I had anticipated this would happen" once in a while isn't over extreme. With that said, if a player has a 36 int, they should be entitled to the same abilities. "Ah, Mithril Golems in an anti-magic acid filled pool of certain doom? I had anticipated you would have a trap like this."