Post/Author/DateTime	Post
thenightlords 04-29-06, 11:03 PM	Just wondering can you hide while wearing magic items and be seen by someone casting deteect magic on them to see you magic items?
Wuggadad 04-29-06, 11:26 PM	Well, if you are hiding behind something that doesn't block the detect magic effect, and you are within 60', the range of Detect Magic, the caster will detect your magic. And in three rounds will have your location. But the Detect Magic is a cone effect, so if you are above, below or behind the wizard, he won't scan you.
King_Bulba 04-30-06, 12:23 AM	Wuggadad is right. He can only detect magic in a cone 60'. Your DM should start scaning the area which takes time. Takes 6 rounds to check if any magic is around you and would have 1 in 6 chance to pick the area your in on the first round, less depending on the circumstances. Also if you are using cover to hide then you are fine as long as it is thick enough to block detect magic. The spell can penetrate barriers, but 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, a thin sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood or dirt blocks it.
thenightlords 04-30-06, 08:41 AM	Thanks for in info I got tried of getting ripped while hiding now to get the DM to understand(50/50 on that).
Traevanon 04-30-06, 09:09 AM	For what its worth, I dont allow detect magic to find hidden auras. If you cant see it with your regular vision you cant see it with Detect Magic, I also count illusions as being obscured to Detect Magic. Since your DM does allow it here are a few tricks you can use to be more effective: Get detect magic at will, through an item or dipping into a class, permanency can do it too I think, wish for it, whatever you have to. Then: Find invisible hidden people. Detect illusions. Find magical traps. Find hidden magic items. Partially identify magic items. Slip an enchanted item into someone's pocket, then keep track of them. Make polymorph or alter self for the purpose of disguise useless. Detect Magic can be a game ruiner for anything involving mystery. At higher levels adding magic to mundane items is required to make things effective against the party. If you can detect and analyze it, you are mighty. Its a very powerful spell. If its not nerfed in your campaign (as it is in mine) then you need to get in on the action.
Another Gnome 04-30-06, 09:40 AM	Note that even if someone knows you're there by using detect magic, it doesn't change the fact you're still hidden for all intent and purposes, just like you would remain invisible even if someone detected and recognized the magic of the invisibility spell on you. (At most, you'd lose a surprise round if a fight broke out.)
Vaelan 04-30-06, 02:01 PM	To pinpoint a character based on magical auras, you need line of effect. If the person is hiding behind cover, you do not have line of effect and thus can only learn the presence and number of magical auras.
Kursk 04-30-06, 03:25 PM	To pinpoint a character based on magical auras, you need line of effect. If the person is hiding behind cover, you do not have line of effect and thus can only learn the presence and number of magical auras. "You detect magical auras. The amount of information revealed depends on how long you study a particular area or subject. 1st Round: Presence or absence of magical auras. 2nd Round: Number of different magical auras and the power of the most potent aura. 3rd Round: The strength and location of each aura. If the items or creatures bearing the auras are in line of sight, you can make Spellcraft skill checks to determine the school of magic involved in each. Each round, you can turn to detect magic in a new area. The spell can penetrate barriers, but 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, a thin sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood or dirt blocks it."
DrMorganes 04-30-06, 04:23 PM	Detect Magic, like all Divinations (and especially low-level Divinations), has its limitations. As a 0-level spell, Detect Magic certainly is not the "campaign breaker" Traevanon seems to think. Let's take a look at the spell's description:Level: Brd 0, Clr 0, Drd 0, Sor/Wiz 0 Components: V, SCasting Time: 1 standard actionRange: 60 ft. Area: Cone-shaped emanation Duration: Concentration, up to 1 min./level (D) Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No You detect magical auras. The amount of information revealed depends on how long you study a particular area or subject. 1st Round: Presence or absence of magical auras. 2nd Round: Number of different magical auras and the power of the most potent aura. 3rd Round: The strength and location of each aura. If the items or creatures bearing the auras are in line of sight, you can make Spellcraft skill checks to determine the school of magic involved in each. (Make one check per aura; DC 15 + spell level, or 15 + half caster level for a nonspell effect.) Magical areas, multiple types of magic, or strong local magical emanations may distort or conceal weaker auras. Aura Strength: An aura’s power depends on a spell’s functioning spell level or an item’s caster level. If an aura falls into more than one category, detect magic indicates the stronger of the two. ————————— Aura Power ————————— Spell or Object Faint Moderate Strong Overwhelming Functioning spell (spell level) 3rd or lower 4th–6th 7th–9th 10th+ (deity-level) Magic item (caster level) 5th or lower 6th–11th 12th–20th 21st+ (artifact) Lingering Aura: A magical aura lingers after its original source dissipates (in the case of a spell) or is destroyed (in the case of a magic item). If detect magic is cast and directed at such a location, the spell indicates an aura strength of dim (even weaker than a faint aura). How long the aura lingers at this dim level depends on its original power: Original Strength Duration of Lingering Aura Faint 1d6 rounds Moderate 1d6 minutes Strong 1d6x10 minutes Overwhelming 1d6 days Outsiders and elementals are not magical in themselves, but if they are summoned, the conjuration spell registers. Each round, you can turn to detect magic in a new area. The spell can penetrate barriers, but 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, a thin sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood or dirt blocks it. Detect magic can be made permanent with a permanency spell.As noted by others, it takes time for the spell to fully function; 3 rounds before the caster notes where all the magical auras are located within the area of effect. If you're not inside the 60' cone, you're not detected. Period. The caster may only check one 60' cone per round, and must concentrate on maintaining the spell's effect. You still get to act on your initiative each round as well. It may be possible to escape the area or spring a sneak attack on the caster before you're discovered. Hiding behind nearly any sort of stone wall will block the spell; it's very difficult to build a decent stone wall less than a foot thick. Carrying a non-magical tower shield with a thin lead coating on your side will also foil the spell (though that's rather metagaming a solution...). A simple Nondetection spell will render you invisible to Detect spells of all sorts, though this gets sticky to adjucate. I'd rule that Nondetection, as a Level 4 spell designed to conceal magic, trumps a 0-level Detect Magic as long as the Nondetection spell is functioning. A moderate abjuration aura would remain for 1d6 minutes where the spell was initially cast, but after that I'd rule you'd be "invisible" to Detect Magic. As far as Traevanon's assertion that Detect Magic is a game ruiner for anything involving mystery. At higher levels adding magic to mundane items is required to make things effective against the party. If you can detect and analyze it, you are mighty. Its a very powerful spell. If its not nerfed in your campaign (as it is in mine) then you need to get in on the action. A decent DM merely needs to account for Divination spells when he prepares his mystery. If you prepare ahead of time, they can provide clues that would otherwise be missed by investigators without access to such spells. Better, they can be used to add to the mystery, misdirecting the PCs by giving them small, easily misconstrued bits of information. I'll take on a few of his points: Find invisible hidden people. Sort of. If they're immobile for 3 full rounds, are carrying magic or active spell effects, AND are unprotected by counter magic, yes. A single rogue (or assassin) with a nonmagical dagger hiding in the shadows will be completely bypassed by Detect Magic... Detect illusions.Sure, if an illusion is suspected. Detect Magic lasts for up to 1 minute per level, and only as long as the caster concentrates upon it. If there's no reason to suspect the presence of an illusion (i.e., a failed Will Save or not interacting with the illusion in question), there's no reason to cast Detect Magic to look for one. Permanent Detect Magic is a specialized happening to be used/possessed only by those with a reason to have it. Let's not forget that a simple Magic Aura spell will mask the illusion aura to look like something else. The illusory chest concealing the pit trap could be made to have an abjuration aura, leading the PCs to believe the chest has been magically warded - perhaps enticing them all the more to investigate! Find magical traps.Again, if one suspects the presence of said traps, and the creator has not taken steps to conceal them from such trivial magics. Find hidden magic items.What wizard worth the name doesn't keep his important treasures hidden in a stone vault or lead-lined chest?! (or both, with a golem to guard it) Partially identify magic items.By aura alone, with a DC (15+Spell Level) Spellcraft Check, after 3 rounds of concentrating on the effect, and assuming no additional concealing magic is on the item, you can discern the type of magic on the item. A PC could speculate from there based on knowledge of magic and personal experience, but they wouldn't know for sure whether the ring they're holding is a Ring of Protection or a Ring of Antiplant Shell (both being abjuration spells). More than that requires the use of the Level 6 Analyze Dweomer! Incidentally, making the Spellcraft Check will drop the Detect Magic effect unless the wizard specifically states otherwise and takes a -2 circumstance penalty to his Check roll. Slip an enchanted item into someone's pocket, then keep track of them.Huh? Not with Detect Magic. Auras don't linger unless the effect expires. The aura of the enchanted token would linger only at the site of creation and the site where the item was destroyed. You cannot use Detect Magic to track an aura as it moves. Even if you could, there are no rules to differentiate one aura from another aura of the same type. All abjuration auras, for example, identify as abjurations, but you cannot tell the aura left by a Protection from Evil spell from that left by an Alarm spell. Keep the duration of lingering auras in mind as well. Only the most powerful magics leave traces which linger for more than 6 minutes - and those only linger for an hour at most! (unless you're talking about god-level magic) Once your token is out of sight, you're out of luck! Make polymorph or alter self for the purpose of disguise useless.Hardly. Again, unless one suspects the disguise, there's no reason to check for it. Since you cannot identify the spell providing the Illusion effect with Detect Magic, you'd be unsure whether the aura was caused by Alter Self or Displacement! (Note, however, that this may change when the Player's Handbook II is released and introduces the Polymorph subschool.)
Nate Jones 04-30-06, 05:08 PM	Even IF the magical aura of a hidden theif was identified, his identity is not revealed. I would not tell players that magical aura eminating from 20 feet within that pitch-black hallway is an invisible assassin anymore than I would tell them that the huge beast they are fighting is actually a Tendriculos and is particularly vulnerable to acid.
Traevanon 04-30-06, 05:12 PM	This is what my party does as a Standard Operating Procedure as they wander around the dungeon searching rooms. 1) Detect Magic from the Warlock on the door and nearby hall. 2) Rogue listens at the door. 3) Rogue checks if the door is locked or trapped and performs the necessary counter procedures. 4) Rogue opens the door for the Fighter and Warlock, who look for enemies and detect magic in the room. 5) Once enemies are taken care of and magic auras are located the party moves into the room and begins to search it, as the Warlock continues to Detect Magic. How in the heck do you (by the regular rules) even bother to have magical traps, illusions or anything magically disguised? Sort of. If they're immobile for 3 full rounds, are carrying magic or active spell effects, AND are unprotected by counter magic, yes. A single rogue (or assassin) with a nonmagical dagger hiding in the shadows will be completely bypassed by Detect Magic... The party is decked out with 20+ magic items each and you expect a rogue with no magic at their same level to be a challenge? Sure, if an illusion is suspected. Detect Magic lasts for up to 1 minute per level, and only as long as the caster concentrates upon it. If there's no reason to suspect the presence of an illusion (i.e., a failed Will Save or not interacting with the illusion in question), there's no reason to cast Detect Magic to look for one. Permanent Detect Magic is a specialized happening to be used/possessed only by those with a reason to have it. Let's not forget that a simple Magic Aura spell will mask the illusion aura to look like something else. The illusory chest concealing the pit trap could be made to have an abjuration aura, leading the PCs to believe the chest has been magically warded - perhaps enticing them all the more to investigate! At will Detect Magic lasts as long as you like. And you neednt be suspicious, all you have to do is point it at a wide swath of wall or a whole room and if you get a "ping" start narrowing down the area. Again, if one suspects the presence of said traps, and the creator has not taken steps to conceal them from such trivial magics. Every door, chest, bookcase and other piece of furniture can be swept in one or two rounds. Only the room needs to be suspected, not the individual object. What wizard worth the name doesn't keep his important treasures hidden in a stone vault or lead-lined chest?! (or both, with a golem to guard it All enemies arent wizards, and most enemies dont even have access to class levels let alone wizardly henchmen. By aura alone, with a DC (15+Spell Level) Spellcraft Check, after 3 rounds of concentrating on the effect, and assuming no additional concealing magic is on the item, you can discern the type of magic on the item. A PC could speculate from there based on knowledge of magic and personal experience, but they wouldn't know for sure whether the ring they're holding is a Ring of Protection or a Ring of Antiplant Shell (both being abjuration spells). More than that requires the use of the Level 6 Analyze Dweomer! Incidentally, making the Spellcraft Check will drop the Detect Magic effect unless the wizard specifically states otherwise and takes a -2 circumstance penalty to his Check roll. And that is enough to partially identify magic items. Ironically this is the part of detect magic that I have enhanced rather than nerfed, to simplify identification of magic items. I allow detect magic to determine the enhancement bonus of items (giving it five ranges of power rather than three) and whether they have additional powers and from what school the additional powers originate. Huh? Not with Detect Magic. Auras don't linger unless the effect expires. The aura of the enchanted token would linger only at the site of creation and the site where the item was destroyed. You cannot use Detect Magic to track an aura as it moves. Even if you could, there are no rules to differentiate one aura from another aura of the same type. All abjuration auras, for example, identify as abjurations, but you cannot tell the aura left by a Protection from Evil spell from that left by an Alarm spell. Keep the duration of lingering auras in mind as well. Only the most powerful magics leave traces which linger for more than 6 minutes - and those only linger for an hour at most! (unless you're talking about god-level magic) Once your token is out of sight, you're out of luck! Alright I didnt mean track, I meant identify among a group of similar beings. Hardly. Again, unless one suspects the disguise, there's no reason to check for it. Since you cannot identify the spell providing the Illusion effect with Detect Magic, you'd be unsure whether the aura was caused by Alter Self or Displacement! (Note, however, that this may change when the Player's Handbook II is released and introduces the Polymorph subschool.) Monsters that have polymorph or alter self generally dont have access to Nondetection. Everything not part of the party is considered suspicious. Concentrating for 3 rounds is no problem when it only takes one to find out that you should be focusing on something. --------------------- You seem to be assuming that the general population has access to powers that in practice only PC and NPC wizards generally have access to. In real gameplay I have found that it is difficult to deal with the variety and means that parties have to get around security measures by NPCs. Knock is a problem too btw. How do you defend against that? Sixteen locks on a lead lined chest? Maybe I'm just a lazy DM.......or maybe my players dont want to have Detect and Unlock Everything like they are Gamesharking the dungeon.
Reversefigure4 04-30-06, 05:42 PM	At will Detect Magic lasts as long as you like. I admit I'm unfamiliar with the Warlock class, so perhaps this is a special feature for them, but for most spellcasters Detect Magic doesn't last as long as you'd like. It lasts up to one minute per level, and then only if you concentrate on it. Even for an Epic level wizard, that's only 20 minutes. Consider that in your party SOP they are probably taking between 10 and 20 minutes by the time they pick the lock, fight, and search the room. As long as your wizard is concentrating on using Detect Magic, he can't cast or do a heck of a lot else, severely limiting him (and every time he breaks it and casts a different spell, eg a Fireball in combat, he has to recast Detect Magic to start it up again). And if he wants to detect magic all day long, it's going to use up a lot of his spell slots.
Wuggadad 04-30-06, 06:14 PM	I agree that Divination spells have to be taken into account by GM who want to run mystery plots. Imagine a mystery plot as having a CR. Low level parties with less access to Detect spells might quickly founder. A 5th level party, where the party mage with Craft Wondrous Item spent 1000gp to Craft a 2,000 gp base cost Detect Magic goggles would not have a problem with it. A mystery involving hidden knowledge, that might have to be tricked out of captured henchmen would be a challenge for low level parties. Much less so for a party that can afford a spell slot for Detect Thoughts, Zone of Truth, etc... Well, sometimes the henchmen don't know. Sometimes they are very good as resisting compulsions, (but that only helps for a little while, as the party could keep trying), and there is still figuring out the right questions to ask and what to do with the information. You want a hard to solve mystery? Go for information overload. Figuring out the useful and accurate information within that could be a real puzzle. At low level, the challenge of the simple task of finding a bad guy's lair could be very tough. But they could make use of Tracking, or having the wizard's familiar shadow the bad guys. More powerful and experienced bad guys would take into account mundane tracking and simple magic tricks, but might not have the resources to deal with a Divination heavy party. Which is good. Wizards should be more than just Blast-ums. I would happily play a wizard who solved puzzles and provided clues and identified treasure, and left combat and the physical risk to those more qualified to handle it. Just as a CR 5 encounter would stretch the abilities of a level 2 party, possibly to the breaking point, but would be an easy mission for a level 6 party, a CR 5 mystery would baffle a level 2 party, but would simply require the use of a few spells for a level 6 party. You could have a CR 3 mystery solving mission for a level 1 party: "Find the bandits' lair, get information about it, report back without alerting the bandits that they have been spotted." The combat CR of the bandit encampment might be much higher, on the other hand, the bandits wouldn't be able to stand against the local militia. But the militia wouldn't head out unless they knew the bandits couldn't attack while they were gone, hence the job for the adventurers. A higher level party would have both the mission of finding and eliminating the bandit encampment. So the mystery solving CR 3 task wouldn't be a major part of the puzzle for them.
Traevanon 04-30-06, 06:40 PM	All Warlock Invocations are "at will" its just that they dont get to choose very many. Usually this means that they wind up with Fly, Invisibility, Detect Magic, Dispel Magic and some form of Eldritch Blast (at will touch attack damage). Regular old Detect Magic, usable 5 times a day or less is not a problem.
Shaggy_Shaggs 04-30-06, 08:12 PM	It seems to me that if you houserule a cantrip to make it more powerful than it should ever have been, it's kind of silly to go back and complain that it's too powerful when a character has it available at will. To the OP: You can hide with magic items and such equipped. Detect Magic (with multiple rounds focused on the area) will reveal you're there unless what you're hiding behind is something that blocks the spell, but you'll still be hidden with the benefits of that state.
Traevanon 04-30-06, 09:57 PM	I didnt houserule it to make it more powerful. Here is the houserule.... (sigh) ---------------------------------------------------- Detect Magic Level: Brd 0, Clr 0, Drd 0, Sor/Wiz 0 Components: V, SCasting Time: 1 standard actionRange: 60 ft. Area: Cone-shaped emanation Duration: Concentration, up to 1 min./level (D) Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No You detect magical auras. The amount of information revealed depends on how long you study a particular area or subject. 1st Round: Presence or absence of magical auras. 2nd Round: Number of different magical auras and the power of the most potent aura. 3rd Round: The strength and location of each aura. If the items or creatures bearing the auras are in line of sight, you can make Spellcraft skill checks to determine the school of magic involved in each. (Make one check per aura; DC 15 + spell level, or 15 + half caster level for a nonspell effect.) Magical auras on characters that are hiding or on objects that require a search check to find still require those rolls. Auras that provide Disguise bonuses cannot be detected without the proper spot check. Illusions mask their own auras as part of the spell. When identifying a magic item with an Enhancement Bonus three rounds of concentration provide the strength of the enhancement bonus as well as the school and relative power level of other effects the item may have. Magical areas, multiple types of magic, or strong local magical emanations may distort or conceal weaker auras. Aura Strength: An aura’s power depends on a spell’s functioning spell level or an item’s caster level. If an aura falls into more than one category, detect magic indicates the stronger of the two. ————————— Aura Power ————————— Spell or Object Faint Moderate Strong Overwhelming Functioning spell (spell level) 3rd or lower 4th–6th 7th–9th 10th+ (deity-level) Magic item (caster level) 5th or lower 6th–11th 12th–20th 21st+ (artifact) Lingering Aura: A magical aura lingers after its original source dissipates (in the case of a spell) or is destroyed (in the case of a magic item). If detect magic is cast and directed at such a location, the spell indicates an aura strength of dim (even weaker than a faint aura). How long the aura lingers at this dim level depends on its original power: Original Strength Duration of Lingering Aura Faint 1d6 rounds Moderate 1d6 minutes Strong 1d6x10 minutes Overwhelming 1d6 days Outsiders and elementals are not magical in themselves, but if they are summoned, the conjuration spell registers. Each round, you can turn to detect magic in a new area. The spell can penetrate barriers, but 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, a thin sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood or dirt blocks it. Detect magic can be made permanent with a permanency spell. ----------------------------------------------------------- I did it to help maintain a valid reason for bothering with illusions, invisibility, magical traps and magical diguises. You dont have to like my houserule. I'm not complaining. I suggested that it is good enough as written for *every* character to get permanencied on themselves. Yeesh.