Post/Author/DateTime	Post
BusterGT 03-07-07, 09:18 AM	So I rolled up this character as a replacement for my current character, since my DM had a habit of "OMG killin' all my dewdz". I have him at the ready - for when my cleric dies. We did 4d6 (drop the lowest), and my rolls were 12, 12, 12, 10, 9, and 4 6's that the DM ruled could be a 19. I'd be coming in at 5th level, and we seem to be in need of a skill monkey that can find traps and secret doors. So I am figuring, Elf, Rogue, with stats at: str 12 dex 22 con 10 int 12 wis 10 cha 9 Feats : Tactile Trapsmith (use dex bonus on search/disable device) and Weapon Finesse (use dex on +to hit). It's pretty good - gives great skills like +15 tumble check at 4th level. Any thoughts on better builds or builds that might be more combat effective? A rapier is nice, but with sneak it only crits for 4d6+2 and hits for 3d6+2 (avg 12.5). What would you do with a one stat wonder?
babysalesman 03-07-07, 10:20 AM	well with the high dex modifier you don't need as much armor, so just get something super light like padded or leather. this way you can carry more stuff like a better, yet heavier, weapon. you could take an exotic weapon proficiency feat instead of the trap feat (just take that 6th level) so you have more damage. perhaps a scythe so you have the x4 critical and with the combat finesse (i forgot the name... maybe?) your damage multiplied would be crazy. you're main thing is weight being carried, with such a high dex you don't need to carry as much (mainly armor, like i said earlier). but yeah, i hope i helped. later days babysalesman
DyloniusFunk 03-07-07, 10:26 AM	I would swap out your Con and Str scores. Elves get the Con penalty so that extra +1 to your HP will be worth more in the long run, and since your taking Weapon Finesse and are going to be the skill monkey, Str would seem like a natural dump stat. Otherwise looks like a pretty good start. I had a halfling rouge that only got to a 20 dex before the game ended but he was a lot of fun to play.
BusterGT 03-07-07, 10:28 AM	well with the high dex modifier you don't need as much armor, so just get something super light like padded or leather. this way you can carry more stuff like a better, yet heavier, weapon. you could take an exotic weapon proficiency feat instead of the trap feat (just take that 6th level) so you have more damage. perhaps a scythe so you have the x4 critical and with the combat finesse (i forgot the name... maybe?) your damage multiplied would be crazy. you're main thing is weight being carried, with such a high dex you don't need to carry as much (mainly armor, like i said earlier). but yeah, i hope i helped. later days babysalesman Hmm... well I'm not sure what good weapon finesse would do with a 2 handed weapon - since it only applies to light weapons, and certain specific weapons like the rapier. It'd be nice is sneak attack damage doubled on crits, but a sneak attack with a scythe... 2d6 SA becomes 8d6 would be overpowered, so it doesn't multiply with a crit.
Scion of Coldshard 03-07-07, 10:44 AM	How about playing a Githzerai? Sure the level adjustment sucks, but you can look just like a human and have been adopted and raised by humans with no one knowing any better. Except that you are a little off ;) Max out Dex as much as possible, have your next highest stat be wisdom, take your first level in rogue, take 2 levels in swordsage, grab the feat that allows you to add your dexterity bonus to your damage with the weapon that you are finessing, and go from there!
edwardsobel 03-07-07, 10:53 AM	Max out Dex as much as possible, have your next highest stat be wisdom, take your first level in rogue, take 2 levels in swordsage, grab the feat that allows you to add your dexterity bonus to your damage with the weapon that you are finessing, and go from there! the feat is shadow blade and it only applies to shadow hand weapons which are: dagger, Short sword, sai, siangham, spiked chain I wouold have gone Whisper gnome myself. A chaarcter in another game I have is currently a whisper gnome swordsage 2/monk 2 and took the insightful feat to give me Detect magic, detect secret doors, read magic (1/day ea.) as spell like abilities. I really shoked the enemy drow when the lkittle gnome punched in a flurry for 11 damage.
Nakat 03-07-07, 11:01 AM	How about playing a Githzerai? Sure the level adjustment sucks, but you can look just like a human and have been adopted and raised by humans with no one knowing any better. Except that you are a little off ;) Max out Dex as much as possible, have your next highest stat be wisdom, take your first level in rogue, take 2 levels in swordsage, grab the feat that allows you to add your dexterity bonus to your damage with the weapon that you are finessing, and go from there! Gith look humanoid in the sense that they have two arms and two legs and a head, but that's about where it stops. You would never mistake one for a human. They are a very very different species. Although I suppose the orc over there could just be a burly, hairy, green skinned man with tusks. I can understand where the confusion would be. :rolleyes: First of all, if you are a level five Rogue you have a 3d6 SA, not a 2d6. I think you should take a Rapier and a Scimitar, and take your first level feat as two weapon fighting, and your third as finesse. If you have a sneaky kind of game, take finesse first, then Tacrtile Trapsmith, then Two-Weapon. 4d6 damage with each attack twice a round on a flank with a good to hit is nothing to laugh at.
Scion of Coldshard 03-07-07, 11:19 AM	the feat is shadow blade and it only applies to shadow hand weapons which are: dagger, Short sword, sai, siangham, spiked chain Which are all finesse weapons. The finesse list is longer but those are all decent choices. Gith look humanoid in the sense that they have two arms and two legs and a head, but that's about where it stops. You would never mistake one for a human. Unless you define the character to look mostly human but with some odd, otherwordly quirks of course. Someone with the appropriate knowledge would be able to tell the difference with an appropriate check, but regular commoner type folk? Unlikely. Some people are just born a little different sometimes. Physical appearance is very fluid, you can choose for your character to be anywhere within a pretty broad range for each race and PC's typically are exceptions even within their own race. It is just an idea for a fun little character. Run with it, play with it, change the race, but the swordsage levels plus the feat make the character a lot more interesting either way ;)
Sunic_Flames 03-07-07, 11:20 AM	+6 dex modifier begs for mithril chain, which a level 5 could reasonably have a +1 version of for +5 armor ac and max dex bonus +6. That's 21 ac right there. 23 with a +1 buckler which rogues can use without penalty. It could go a little higher than this with rings/amulets/etc if need be but 23 AC for a level 5 rogue is quite respectable. And assuming you're starting at level 5 with standard wealth, that gives you 5,735 gp left for whatever else after those 2 items. Later on when you get a significantly higher dex ditch the armor entirely and use bracers of armor so you don't have to deal with a max dex cap at all.
AlchemyPhd 03-07-07, 11:48 AM	I agree 100% that weapon finesse will be great for this character. Does your DM allow feats from PHBII? If so, take Telling Blow from PHBII. Telling Blow won't let you double your sneak attack on a crit... but it does allow you to roll your sneak attack on a crit...even if you are NOT flanking or your opponent is NOT denied its dex to AC. Basically if you crit you roll your sneak attack damage all the time versus susceptible foes. If your party is very cooperative and your rogue would always have a flanking buddy then I guess this is overkill, but if your rogue is going to be one of only a few at the frontline you don't have to wait for a flank to get your sneak attack...as long as you crit, or course. And if you can get your hands on a +1 Keen rapier (threat 15-20) then you could be rolling those d6s all night long! Alternatively, if you are going to play a human you could take Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot and Rapid Shot and be a rogue archer. just a thought. good luck! AP
Nakat 03-07-07, 12:25 PM	Oh, also, if you have dungeonscape, trade out your silly trap sense for the wonderful ability to Sneak Attack foes normally immune to it (albeit for half damage, but Still!)
Saytr 03-09-07, 02:44 AM	How about crossbow sniper from PHB2? Sneak attack at 60' and half of DEX to damage. Requires WFocus: XBow. Get a repeating XBow later.
DarkRhystar 03-09-07, 03:03 AM	What would you do with a one stat wonder? I would go here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=4584975).
draco1119 03-09-07, 03:42 AM	How's this sound? Skip Tactile Trapsmith until 9th level, take Improved Weapon Familiarity at 1st level and Weapon Focus (Longsword) at 3rd. Use an Elven Thinblade, which, for purposes of feats such as WF, WS, Improved Crit, etc. functions as a longsword. Take Champion of Corellon Larethian as your PrC ASAP, and at 2nd level you gain the class ability Elegant Strike, which lets you add your Dex AND Str bonuses to your damage rolls. Proceed to slay everything in sight.
SanderJK 03-09-07, 03:59 AM	I'd go with a Rogue3/Swashbuckler2. At level 6, take 1 more level as rogue, and take the feat from Complete Scoundrel that adds sneak attack to your swashbuckler levels (a full BAB class). You'll get the Weapon Finesse for free. Get all your Two weapon fighting feats, and sneak-attack away. You also have free improved flanking as a major boon eventually, as well as dodge/reflex save bonuses, +int to weapon damage, acrobatic charge. By level 12, you can have 6 attacks (as opposed to 15 for a straight rogue) at +9/+9/+4/+4/-1/-1, before statmods, weaponmods, with +6d6 sneak attack damage on all. You could consider placing a level or two from ToB strategicly to give you some maneuvres/stances so your combat is a bit more flexible (and thus possibly more fun). 14 levels of swashbuckler gets you weakening critical, which is 2str damage on every crit, no save.
Saytr 03-09-07, 04:40 PM	How about crossbow sniper from PHB2? Sneak attack at 60' and half of DEX to damage. Requires WFocus: XBow. Get a repeating XBow later. Sorry about quoting myself but I wanted to follow up. Ninja gives you all the skills you want and he gains a class abilty that gives him invisibility that does NOT go away when he attacks. He also gains Sudden Strike damage that works when he is invisible. This matches a rogues Sneak Attack damage amount. So take the feat and pummel your enemy with huge damage from 60 feet away without even being seen. Don't see how you can do much better than that, even if it's only a few rounds a day at first.
Scion of Coldshard 03-09-07, 06:29 PM	Ninja gives you all the skills you want and he gains a class abilty that gives him invisibility that does NOT go away when he attacks. He also gains Sudden Strike damage that works when he is invisible. This matches a rogues Sneak Attack damage amount. So take the feat and pummel your enemy with huge damage from 60 feet away without even being seen. Don't see how you can do much better than that, even if it's only a few rounds a day at first. I would personally go pure swordsage over pure ninja any day unless I really needed trap finding. I like the abilities of the swordsage more and there is a lot more versitility in the build.
twad 03-09-07, 06:39 PM	So I (snip) What would you do with a one stat wonder? They dont happen cuz i use point-buy and limit the absolute maximum stat at the beggining to be 18.
Scion of Coldshard 03-09-07, 06:46 PM	They dont happen cuz i use point-buy and limit the absolute maximum stat at the beggining to be 18. So your answer to the hypothetical is that you would roll to disbelieve?
twad 03-09-07, 07:15 PM	Hehehe, nice one. Alright, i go for a proper answer then. One stat wonder is, IMO, the equivalent of putting all your eggs in the same basket. Overspecialisation is SUPERB in what it is supposed to do, but POOR in everything else. Sure, DEX is kinda the less "bad" choice since it affect so many things (AC, lots of Skills, Reflex, weapon finesse, InItiative ). And just getting one stat high, mean that all others are not good. Means low skill, low damage and carrying cap, harder access to feats (some of them require Int). Low X, Y Z. If you are facing something you are not designed to face, you are in big trouble. But in the end, stats are only so good. After a while your stats get meaningless and the equipment/feats/spells ect are doing all the job, with the stats being a little bonus, or just being there as prerequisite. If it would come up in my game, i think i would try to persuade the other guy to , at least, slightly modify his build to make it more adaptable and versatile, if not, then i let him play his one-stat wonder. Max Dex rogue may actually be viable if played creatively.
Nathreet 03-09-07, 07:54 PM	He rolled the one-stat wonder. His only choice would be to pick a stat other than dex. So at level 5 you get 9,000gp in starting equipment. Try these: +1 shadow mithral shirt of silent moves: +5 to hide, +5 to move silently 4+1 = 5 AC Max dex bonus to AC: 6 No armor check penalty Arcane spell failure chance: 10% 10 lbs 1100gp (mithral shirt) + 1000gp (+1) + 2500gp ("shadow" enchantment) + 2500gp ("silent moves" enchantment) = 7100gp. Goggles of Minute Seeing The lenses of this item are made of special crystal. When placed over the eyes of the wearer, the lenses enable her to see much better than normal at distances of 1 foot or less, granting her a +5 competence bonus on Search checks to find secret doors, traps, and similar concealed objects. Both lenses must be worn for the magic to be effective. Faint divination; CL 3rd; Craft Wondrous Item, true seeing; Price 1,250 gp. Heavy darkwood shield: 257gp No armor check penalty Arcane spell failure chance: 15% 5 lbs masterwork thief's tools: 50gp +2 to disable device and open lock That leaves you 343gp for a masterwork weapon and other basic equipment. I broke down the pricing on the armor, so if you want to tone it down a bit you can simply remove any features you don't want. But you can't remove the +1 unless you also remove both "shadow" and "silent moves", since all magic armor must be at least +1. If you want to get enchanted non-mithral armor then don't forget to make it masterwork (only masterwork armor may be enchanted): to do that just add 150gp to the price and reduce the armor check penalty by 1. Cool things you can do with a ridiculously high tumble: DC 15 to tumble beside the 1st enemy's square, add 2 for each additional enemy DC 20 to tumble through the 1st enemy's square, add 2 for each additional enemy Take a -5 to the tumble check to tumble at full speed. Otherwise you tumble at half speed (up to 15' per move action). Cool things you can do with a ridiculously high hide/move silently: Take a -5 to move at full speed (but not run). Otherwise you move at half speed (up to 15' per move action). Take a -20 to run, attack or charge without being seen or heard.
Silverthumb128 03-10-07, 01:33 PM	Pssh, Dexterity's overrated. :D Magic-Blooded Aasimar Level 1 Battledancer(Dragon 159)/Level 2 Avenger(CG Paladin variant) Assuming a rolled 18 put towards Charisma, you'll end up with 22 Charisma(23 at the level 4 ability bonus) that would now go towards both AC(while unarmored) and Saves, with no ability penalties, either.
Ack 03-11-07, 11:26 PM	Had a halfling-based character in an online game of d20 Warhammer 40K; ended up with DEX 22. With all his bonuses, he topped out with a Hide of +22 at 6th level, and a no-armour AC of 27-30 or so. He wasn't so great at close combat, but he did have weapon finesse in a 1d4 weapon, thus giving him +11 to hit with that as well as ranged. Not the heavy hitter, but he definitely had his niche in the party :D So yeah, DEX monsters can be fun too :D
Pangeon 03-11-07, 11:30 PM	Thumb has a point. If you're looking for a God-Stat, it's Charisma. (I'd go Star Elf over Aasimar for the 0 LA, personally.) As you have it, I'd say go for Swordsage over Rogue as well. With Assassin's Stance, you can get 2d6 sneak attack in addition to your host of maneuvers and Wisdom to AC in light armor. (Unless you require trapfinding, of course, then I'd recommend You play a Scout and go ranged skirmisher, taking Point Blank and Precise Shot, then heading for Shot on the Run.)
Kazeofwinds 03-14-07, 06:21 PM	There's a feat in Tome of Battle that allows you to apply dex mod to damage when in a shadow hand stance using a shadow hand weapon. Or you could be silly and take crossbow sniper.
Maekrix_Waere 03-14-07, 08:03 PM	I'd get a Blurstrike weapon. It makes it so your first attack on you enemy every turn makes them flat-footed, allowing you to sneak attack them every round without needing to worry about flanking. (+2 Bonus, Races of the Wild) After that, I'd get spring attack ASAP to keep you away from full attacks as much as possible.
snakeman830 03-14-07, 08:51 PM	I'd say you have a good idea on how you want to work this character already. Since we don't know what the rest of your party is like, our advice is limited at best. (Many of the above ideas may already be covered.) I recomend taking E.W.P.(Spiked Chain) at 6th level. This gives you a more effective weapon (than a raipier, but the raitiper has a nice crit range). that is finessable. It also lets you make trip attacks (never underestimate them) and gives you a total of a +6 bonus on disarm (+4 from being two-handed, +2 from it's own quality). Either that, or take dodge and mobility at 6th and 9th levels, taking your first level of duelist at 9th level. Sure, you won't be wearing any armor, but you add your Int bonus to Dex for AC(max of 1 point per duelist level), get more initiative and reflex, get a higher B.A.B. progression, and get to add 1D6 to all of your piercing attacks once you reach 5th level and 2D6 when you hit 10th. Plus, you get to charge across virtually anything. Duelist will be a good prestige class for you.
BusterGT 03-15-07, 02:12 PM	How's this sound? Skip Tactile Trapsmith until 9th level, take Improved Weapon Familiarity at 1st level and Weapon Focus (Longsword) at 3rd. Use an Elven Thinblade, which, for purposes of feats such as WF, WS, Improved Crit, etc. functions as a longsword. Take Champion of Corellon Larethian as your PrC ASAP, and at 2nd level you gain the class ability Elegant Strike, which lets you add your Dex AND Str bonuses to your damage rolls. Proceed to slay everything in sight. Champion of Corellon Larethion is in Races of Wild right? Is the Elven Thinblade in there too? Where is Improved Weapon Familiarity? I really like Nathreet's item suggestions, too. I hope that shadow mithril shirt is 3.5 :D
trapspringer 03-15-07, 11:47 PM	The chain shirt is. The thinblade is in CW and RotW, IIRC. I'd go with that loadout, it's good advice. Add silk Rope. Check out complete scoundrel and complete adventurer for "other uses" of your skills. Most of these "other uses" involve upping the DC for standard checks, which won't be a problem for you.
draco1119 03-16-07, 03:52 AM	Champion of Corellon Larethion is in Races of Wild right? Is the Elven Thinblade in there too? Where is Improved Weapon Familiarity? I really like Nathreet's item suggestions, too. I hope that shadow mithril shirt is 3.5 :D The Champion is in Races of the Wild and requires 4 feats (so you might want a couple levels of Fighter, also): Dodge, Combat Expertise, Mounted Combat, and Weapon Focus (Longsword) or Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Elven Thinblade or Elven Courtblade). Remember, though, Combat Expertise has a prereq of Int 13. Elven Thinblade can be found in Complete Warrior and RotW. Improved Weapon Familiarity makes all racial weapons martial weapons instead of exotic, so it should work in place of the EWP requirement for the Champion, and if you have WF (Longsword), it doesn't matter so much, anyway. It can be found in Complete Warrior and Races of Stone. The shadow ability is one of the standard armor abilities in the 3.5 DMG.
draco1119 03-16-07, 08:47 AM	I wanted to add some things: I think your best bet to get this PrC is to go Ftr4/Rog3, as it requires a BAB of +6, 4 ranks in Diplomacy, 2 ranks in Knowledge (Religion), and 4 feats. That's the bad news. The good news: you gain a "lay on hands" ability, you gain elegant strike, you get a higher Dex bonus in Medium and heavy armor (up to an additional +3), you gain speed in medium and heavy armor (by the time you finish, you'll be able to move full speed in heavy armor!), you gain 4 bonus feats, and you gain an ability that lets you add 1d6 to damage and aligns your weapon as "good." Personally, I'd say it's worth it. :D
BusterGT 03-16-07, 02:11 PM	The Champion is in Races of the Wild and requires 4 feats (so you might want a couple levels of Fighter, also): Dodge, Combat Expertise, Mounted Combat, and Weapon Focus (Longsword) or Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Elven Thinblade or Elven Courtblade). Remember, though, Combat Expertise has a prereq of Int 13. Elven Thinblade can be found in Complete Warrior and RotW. Improved Weapon Familiarity makes all racial weapons martial weapons instead of exotic, so it should work in place of the EWP requirement for the Champion, and if you have WF (Longsword), it doesn't matter so much, anyway. It can be found in Complete Warrior and Races of Stone. The shadow ability is one of the standard armor abilities in the 3.5 DMG. /cry My highest ability score outside of Dex is 12 (Int, and Con witch is racially 10). I lack the int for combat expertise until I hit 8th level. Since we seem to need a skill monkey more than another fighter (we have a Samurai and temporarily have a Minotaur), I think I'll go pure rogue for the good of the team. At present I'm thinking: Rogue 5 Elf Feats: TWF (1st), Weapon Finesse (3rd) Rapier and short sword for attacks with WF at BaB + 6 - 2. (Daggerx2 handy for slashing monsters, and a pair of saps JIC) Items: +1 shadow mithral shirt of silent moves Goggles of Minute Seeing masterwork thief's tools Ranks in: Climb, Disable Device, Hide, MoveSil, Open Locks, Search, SoH, Tumble, Jump (5), Escape Artist (2). Max damage on double Crit sneak attack: 2d6+2+3d6sneak, 2d6+2+3d6sneak = 10d6+4, 64 Max damage. Against everything our DM throws at us? 2d6+2+0, 2d6+2+0 = 28 Max (undead, constructs, invisi-stalkers and other unflankables). Not to mention DR. Hehe. It feels like a fun build at present. I may just have to pick up dungeonscape for the ability to crit non-critables at level 6 (albeit for 1/2 damage). Then go Tactile Trapsmith at 9th for an extra +5 for search and DD. I'm going to be one stuck up elf. :) Charisma 9 elf in a party with a Fey bloodline human druid, Minotaur, Dragon Bloodline Human Dragon Shaman, Minotaur, and a Titan Bloodline Human Samurai. I'm the only pure blood of a non-monstrous type and boy am I going to make that known. OMG Mudblood!!! :eek:
draco1119 03-16-07, 06:41 PM	/cry My highest ability score outside of Dex is 12 (Int, and Con witch is racially 10). I lack the int for combat expertise until I hit 8th level. Since we seem to need a skill monkey more than another fighter (we have a Samurai and temporarily have a Minotaur), I think I'll go pure rogue for the good of the team. This is basically a Dex-based paladin, so you're probably making the right decision for the party. But if you think you guys need the extra damage output, you know where to go. :) I forgot that the other prereq for the class was proficiency with all martial weapons and all armor, so if you decide on this class, you'll need at least one level in Ftr/Pal/Rgr.