Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Evitharil 09-17-05, 07:59 AM	Hey everyone, it's me again, with yet another question about Paladins :) Last session, we ran into a good alligned orc farmer. He told us about evil orcs that are ravaging the lands and are killing & destroying they see. After some more talking and fooling around on what to do next, we saw a band of evil orcs approaching. I as the Paladin ofcourse got ready for combat to defend the innocent orc and his farm. The rest of the party did the same and we got ready to fight. With a true strike casted on myself, I dealt a devastating blow on the first orc and killed the orc pretty soon. The others will still busy fighting the other orcs, I looked around to see who could use help, and yes, my IC best friend was having trouble. I charged the orc he was fighting, yelled "You are going to die, DO YOU UNDERSTAND!" and slashed him. Well, I hit him in the back. And that's when hell broke loose. One particular member of the party started *****ing at me OOC, about how I am such a bad paladin roleplayer, and that I did a terrible thing. I attacked an evil orc that was trying to kill my friends in his back. What the hell should I have done? Should I have waited till he was done with my friend, and then take care of him? Ofcourse he's best friends with the DM and this is not the first time I have made "terrible" mistakes like this. For example, I have healed myself (ohhhh) once or twice, when everyone else was at full health. He said that a Paladin could never heal himself. On the other hand, this guy has been playing d&d for quite a while, and he's certain that I am breaking my code constantly. So, is what I did wrong? And if it is (or isn't) could anyone please give me a link on a good article or anything like that about paladin code? Thanks in advance!
Lyinginbedmon 09-17-05, 08:14 AM	Hmm...tricky one. Basically I think that he thinks you broke the Paladin's Code by shouting that you were going to kill the Orc, no questions asked, and no quarter given. You were perfectly within the Code to kill an evil creature about to kill your best friend, but Paladin's aren't all hack and slash. I think he was expecting something like "Evildoer, repent your wicked ways or I shall surely strike you down", rather than "I am going to kill you, DO YOU UNDERSTAND". Paladins are a tricky class to play, because they have to be devout defenders of good and honesty etc. but they have to be nice about it even towards the evil creatures. This does not however mean that you have to give every Tanar'Ri and Baatezu you pass a second chance"I've had enough, I will not allow this, I will pay you back! Because forgiveness, for one like you, could never be an option!" - Achika in Tenchi the Movie. To polish off an old Anime quote ;)
The White Sorcerer 09-17-05, 08:15 AM	So, is what I did wrong? No. A paladin can never heal himself? WTF? The other player is an idiot.
LCD2YOU 09-17-05, 08:19 AM	Hey everyone, it's me again, with yet another question about Paladins :) Last session, we ran into a good alligned orc farmer. He told us about evil orcs that are ravaging the lands and are killing & destroying they see. After some more talking and fooling around on what to do next, we saw a band of evil orcs approaching. I as the Paladin ofcourse got ready for combat to defend the innocent orc and his farm. The rest of the party did the same and we got ready to fight. With a true strike casted on myself, I dealt a devastating blow on the first orc and killed the orc pretty soon.How did you know these were the "evil Orcs"? If these were the "bad guys", then the only thing I see that you did wrong was perhaps not talking to them first before you went a-hacking.The others will still busy fighting the other orcs, I looked around to see who could use help, and yes, my IC best friend was having trouble. I charged the orc he was fighting, yelled "You are going to die, DO YOU UNDERSTAND!" and slashed him. Well, I hit him in the back. And that's when hell broke loose.I take it the "all hell breaking loose" was due to your cowardly act of hitting the Orc in the back? But in all seriousness, there is no reason why a Paladin can't flank an opponent like all the other classes.One particular member of the party started *****ing at me OOC, about how I am such a bad paladin roleplayer, and that I did a terrible thing. I attacked an evil orc that was trying to kill my friends in his back.Again, ask the other player what he thouht you did that was so evil. I say it's hitting the Orc in the back. If so, ask him where in the DMG or PHB it says that a Paladin can't use tactics like flanking.What the hell should I have done? Should I have waited till he was done with my friend, and then take care of him?I think in the other player's mind, again this is my guess, you should have come around to fight the Orc from the front. But then again he could be ****** that you yelledYou are going to die, DO YOU UNDERSTAND!"but I don't see any issue with that. If you were far enough away, it could have made the Orc surrender. He did not. It also made it so the Orc knew yu were there and so it wasn't a "back stab" from the "evil Paladin".Of course he's best friends with the DM and this is not the first time I have made "terrible" mistakes like this. For example, I have healed myself (ohhhh) once or twice, when everyone else was at full health. He said that a Paladin could never heal himself.BS. That is why a Paladin can heal and is immune to natural diseases. Ask the DM to provide a detailed list of what is and is not acceptable acts for a Paladin in his game. Generally, if a Paladin fails, it's the DM's fault for not being clear on what is going on.On the other hand, this guy has been playing d&d for quite a while, and he's certain that I am breaking my code constantly.So? I've been dating women for a long time and I still don't understand them.So, is what I did wrong? And if it is (or isn't) could anyone please give me a link on a good article or anything like that about paladin code?That is your DM's job. Still, I'd like to hear more about what you do and don't do that irks your DM. Please send more info and be "matter of fact" in your descriptions.Thanks in advance!You're welcome.
The White Sorcerer 09-17-05, 08:31 AM	Ha-ha! If the other player's reasoning is "You attacked from behind," I found a loophole. There is no facing in D&D. :D
LCD2YOU 09-17-05, 08:35 AM	Ha-ha! If the other player's reasoning is "You attacked from behind," I found a loophole. There is no facing in D&D. :DOh, don't you go and tease us. I would like to know which loophole you're thinking of from your post.
Xaxor 09-17-05, 08:36 AM	Obviously your party does not understand how to play a paladin. The orcs had already shown they would cause harm. There is nothing in the code that says a paladin can't use effective tactics such as flanking. And for Pelor's sake, you even gave warning. If your DM is trying to make you fall over silly little things like this, I would stop playing a paladin. It's not worth the trouble. And there's nothing wrong with a cleric healing himself, now is there? Don't trust people just because they've been playing longer than you. They still can be playing wrong.
Tiddles 09-17-05, 08:44 AM	Where in the code does it say they have to be nice about it? It says to defend the innocent, stop evil, don't use poison, don't lie, etc. I don't think it says you have to be polite. A paladin should be like all the other characters and have individual personalities. Don't let the code tell you that all paladins are the same. You can play a paladin who's rude and undiplomatic. You can play a paladin who sees his paladinhood as a curse (he must tirelesssly seek out evil and defend the inncocent rather than live a peacefully farmers life with his family). You can even play a paladin who is a racist as long as he doesn't let his thoughts control his actions he's fine. As long as they stay lawful good and keep their code they can continue. However, all characters personal views on the classes are unique. The character upset at you likely has a image of paladins as perfect saints who can never make the slightest errors of his personal code. The fact that he's been playing a long time suggests that he's likely to be stuck in his ways. Either he remembers paladins from a previous edition, or he's played them before and believes they must be played his way. My suggestion would be to sit down between yourself, DM, and other player and see if you can't come to an understanding. You have to know whats expected of a class if you're playing it. If its a major problem switch classes, whatever makes the game fun.
Black Kitten 09-17-05, 08:47 AM	Hey everyone, it's me again, with yet another question about Paladins :) Last session, we ran into a good alligned orc farmer. He told us about evil orcs that are ravaging the lands and are killing & destroying they see. After some more talking and fooling around on what to do next, we saw a band of evil orcs approaching. I as the Paladin ofcourse got ready for combat to defend the innocent orc and his farm. The rest of the party did the same and we got ready to fight. With a true strike casted on myself, I dealt a devastating blow on the first orc and killed the orc pretty soon. The others will still busy fighting the other orcs, I looked around to see who could use help, and yes, my IC best friend was having trouble. I charged the orc he was fighting, yelled "You are going to die, DO YOU UNDERSTAND!" and slashed him. Well, I hit him in the back. And that's when hell broke loose. One particular member of the party started *****ing at me OOC, about how I am such a bad paladin roleplayer, and that I did a terrible thing. I attacked an evil orc that was trying to kill my friends in his back. What the hell should I have done? Should I have waited till he was done with my friend, and then take care of him? Ofcourse he's best friends with the DM and this is not the first time I have made "terrible" mistakes like this. For example, I have healed myself (ohhhh) once or twice, when everyone else was at full health. He said that a Paladin could never heal himself. On the other hand, this guy has been playing d&d for quite a while, and he's certain that I am breaking my code constantly. So, is what I did wrong? And if it is (or isn't) could anyone please give me a link on a good article or anything like that about paladin code? Thanks in advance! Attacking someone from behind, sneak attacking, fainting in combat to get a sneak attack, silencing/blinding opponents to kill them, launch them off cliffs, making a ranged attack are all TACTICS as opposed to EVIL ACTS. The only thing you may have possibly done wrong is not talking to the Orcs first before taking out your sword. Read the Book of Exalted Deeds,it's very clear on that.
feartheinvinceblehamster 09-17-05, 08:53 AM	i'd smack that one player. i can't wait to see him if you ever play evil and do an antipaladin.... "OMG!!! an antipaladin can never save someone!!!!" no, in any reasonable campaign you would not have broken your code... it's one thing to shout that, another to shout "i will kill you and feast upon your flesh!!!!.....in the name of heironous"
Rhomphaia 09-17-05, 08:55 AM	The Paladin's Code is as follows- Never commit an evil act. Respect legitimate authority. Act with honor (don't lie, don't cheat, don't use poison, and so on). Help those who need help (provided they don't use the help for evil or chaotic ends). Punish those who harm or threaten innocents. Now, let's take each bit of the code, and see where any reasonable person might see a violation. Never commit an evil act. I saw nothing evil (on the paladin's part) in that entire situation. Respect legitimate authority. Not applicable. No authority present whatsoever. Act with honor (don't lie, don't cheat, don't use poison, and so on). The only questionable part of this is where you attacked the orc from behind, but you gave him warning, so he knew you were comming. Whether or not he chose to heed that warning would be his fault, not the paladin's. I see nothing wrong here. Help those who need help (provided they don't use the help for evil or chaotic ends). You did exactly that. No problems here. Punish those who harm or threaten innocents. Again, you did just that. No problems. It sounds like you are playing well in character and the other player might be griefing. I have seen a similar situation before where one player bullied another out of a certain class, then turned right around and played that class himself. I hope that is not what is happening here. Anyway, as far as it goes, I would have had no problem with your actions during that combat, insofar as you described them.
LCD2YOU 09-17-05, 08:59 AM	Attacking someone from behind, sneak attacking, fainting in combat to get a sneak attack, silencing/blinding opponents to kill them, launch them off cliffs, making a ranged attack are all TACTICS as opposed to EVIL ACTS. The only thing you may have possibly done wrong is not talking to the Orcs first before taking out your sword. Read the Book of Exalted Deeds,it's very clear on that.The biggest issue with the BoED is that good characters can't use poisons but in the BoED they have an entire section of the "Ravages" and other things that only affect evil creatures. It acts like a poison to evil. But even still, the BoED is an opinion on how "exhalted characters", not just being "good", are supposed to act. Another thing I don't like is the idea that Paladins are supposed to talk to all evil creatures before they attack. Now I can see a Paladin who is in command of a great army letting his opponents, the other army, know what will happen to them if they don't surrender. However in a tactical situation, stopping to talk will get the party killed. If someone insisted on playing like that and they ran into an intelligent bad guy, the bad guy will feign interest. This will give his minions the time to take up tactical positions around the party. Of course, there is a very small chance that the Paladin would actually be able to change the LBEG's mind. It is more likely we are talking about a TPK. Yes, if the Paladin starts doing that in my game, I will remind him or her that while it's always a nice idea and it has worked in the past more Paladins have died, many more, from such a tactic.
Evitharil 09-17-05, 09:12 AM	To clear something up, the orcs charged us in a rage with drawn weapons. And my detect evil classified them as evil, and he hit me first. Talking didn't seem like a good idea :) Thanks for all the responses so far guys.
Callista 09-17-05, 09:45 AM	You "hit him in the back"? If you mean you were flanking the orc with your friend, then you actually didn't hit him in the back; you just teamed up on him; chances are your opponent would have turned so that the two of you were on either side of him. If, on the other hand, you're using facing rules (UA), then that's quite possible to hit an opponent in the back. Were you? In normal D&D, though, "hitting someone in the back" is pretty hard to do, since in the middle of battle, opponents are assumed to be always turning around to whatever threat presents itself. I suppose a rogue's sneak attack is about as close as it gets; but of course your Paladin doesn't have that (and, in any case, there's a PrC that actually gives a Paladin sneak attacks--sort of a "secret agent" deal. Forget what it's called... Shadowbane something). In any case, I don't think you did anything against the basic Paladin's code (your own paladin's code might vary--you didn't post it here; how come?)... you're quite justified in using surprise to your advantage when you're already in the middle of a pitched battle. It might be a bit distasteful to your character, who, given the option, would certainly have fought the orc in a fairer way. But he wasn't given the option--obviously, a friend's life is more important than the finer points of honor; and the orc was, after all, evil, and had already been alerted that you inteded to fight him. So: Did you act dishonorably? No. Were you a perfect paragon of honor? No. But to act any more honorably would have endangered your friend and might have ended tragically, so really you had no choice. Paladin or no, you can't always have your head in the clouds; and reality is that sometimes you have to choose between honor and good. Your first priority is to protect the innocent, even though you mightn't like it when that requires you to be less honorable than you wish you could be. Now, here comes the question: What will your character think about this? Personality-wise, is he more attached to Law or to Good? He mightn't think much about the incident--having to hit an orc in the back to protect a friend--or he might be very conscience-stricken and question his motives, etc.: "If I were a better Paladin, I would've found a way to do this honorably." I've even seen Paladins who were nowhere near losing their powers decide to perform some sort of an atonement for a dishonorable act, even a minor one. On the other hand, the incident might start him thinking: What's the point of honor in the first place, if it just gets in the way? If he goes for this, then he's headed for Neutral Good, though he mightn't ever get there. He might start to see honor as a means to an end--i.e., you're more likely to do good if you hold to a code, so follow it whenever possible; but when the code gets in the way, dump it. That's still LG, though it's on the neutral side of Law. All in all, it's an opportunity for character development. Your friends could easily be falling into the stereotypical-Paladin trap, in that they believe that all paladins act the same. But your character is an individual, and hopefully he's neither stereotypical nor the perfect paladin. All I know from the fact that your character is a Paladin is that he believes in doing Good, and he believes in some form of Law (honor or order or justice or discipline... all sorts of things fall under that heading). That can go an awful lot of different ways. If you're not playing him as "the perfect paladin", so what? Frankly, perfect is boring. I mean, sure, worry about it if the character's personality gets too chaotic, or if your character starts thinking evil acts mightn't be such a big deal, because then you have to figure out if you'll let him fall and all the things, mechanically and RP-wise, that that entails. But imperfect? Helllooo! He's mortal; he's not supposed to be perfect! That doesn't mean that Paladins don't have to atone when they misstep; and it doesn't mean they don't fall and turn to evil. But it does mean that even the best paladin isn't going to do everything right all the time, even though (with a Lawful nature, perfectionism is typical) he might expect perfection of himself. Half the time, imperfection results from an imperfect world--which is what happened to your character--and isn't quite the character's fault at all. So: You're doing fine. Just play your character as who he is. Play him as who he is, a personality (that just happens to be LG) and not just a plain, cardboard alignment-and-class combo.
LCD2YOU 09-17-05, 10:24 AM	To clear something up, the orcs charged us in a rage with drawn weapons. And my detect evil classified them as evil, and he hit me first. Talking didn't seem like a good idea :) Thanks for all the responses so far guys.You really screwed up. Here's how: 1: You didn't offer to start up mediation sessions that would have shown the Orcs just how much better it is being good. 2: You didn't let them take a few whacks at you so you could make darn sure these Orcs were evil. 3: You didn't check to see if these orcs had families they were trying to feed. 4: From #3, as you butchered those poor Orcs who are just trying to make it through a hard world feeding their kids, now their kids are going to starve. 5: You didn't do a ctizen's arrest to take these orcs to an authortiy so they'd get a fair trial. If found guilty, these orcs would have been put into a rehab center where they'd repent their evil ways. No, you had to be police, judge, jury and executioner. So you're a Blackguard now. CE too. You are a disgrace to those that play Paladins.
LCD2YOU 09-17-05, 10:32 AM	This was originally posted by Maninthefunnyhat. I think it is one of the best general thigs I've seen in print on Paladins in a long time. Anyways, here is what he posted: 1) The DM -*-must-*- discuss with all the players before any play begins what his interpretations and understandings are regarding alignment and alignment restricted classes. If the DM has NOT done so in this case then the DM should LET IT GO, spend a useful amount of time discussing the issue with all the players (taking their opinions into account and making clear what he should have made clear in the first place BEFORE it became an issue), and move on. 2) If the DM and a player run into game-halting issues regarding alignment/paladins then the fault is going to lie with the DM for failing to properly communicate to the players beforehand what the rules are in THIS game regarding alignment/paladins. Don't take it too hard though. After all the PH and DMG aren't exactly going out of their way to help you avoid the pitfalls involved here. But, if a DM says, "Your paladin just lost his paladinhood or turned Evil," and the players response is, "What the hell are you talking about?" - it IS the DM's fault. ALWAYS. 3) Paladins, as a RULE, will KNOW if what they are doing is right or wrong. These are the characters in the game who are intrinsically tied to not just knowing what's right, but DOING it even when the consequences aren't pretty. It is a poor DM who fails to warn a paladins player IMMEDIATELY AND CLEARLY that their character is about to run afoul of his alignment restrictions and just how severe the DM thinks the consequences might be. Note again that EVEN WHEN A PALADIN FAILS TO DO WHAT IS UTTERLY RIGHT AND MORAL there may be no noticable immediate consequence. 4) The reason for that last bit is that alignment is a reflection of a characters behavior over time and is rarely changed immediately as a result of a single action unless that action is EXTREME and directly contrary to what is expected of the character. 5) Paladins are no more restricted in what they can ACTUALLY do than any other character. That is, alignment doesn't STOP any PC - EVER - from doing what the player wants the character to do. The difference is that for paladins and other alignment restricted characters the consequences are more serious and can directly affect their class. 6) Given the above, it is clear that paladins are not FORCED to always do what is right and good. Paladins are not FORCED to be perfect. Paladins should only be slightly less fallible than other PC's. In other words, ONE FREAKIN' MISBEHAVIOR does not automatically turn a Paladin into a Blackguard. The appropriate response to a Paladin doing something they probably ought NOT to have done is not always, "You're no longer a paladin and never will be again." Paladins can lose thier abilities for variable periods of time and may or may not be required to obtain an Atonement to regain them. 7) It is possible to interpret quite differently what a paladin is/is not allowed to do. That's why DM's need to talk to their players and make things clear before they ever become issues in the game. However, it is my HIGHLY stressed insistence that Paladins are judge, jury, and executioners. They exist in a game world because they are ALLOWED to be judge, jury, and executioners. They are allowed to do so because "law enforcement" in a pseudo-medieval world is NOT supposed to be anywhere close to what it is in the real world. Essentially somewhere in your campaign world there must be a sizeable area where Paladins developed to fill that gap. 8) Paladins are not supposed to cut you to pieces just because you ARE evil (have an evil alignment) but because you DO evil. Thus paladins can't stand on a street corner and kill anyone who "pings" on their Detect Evil ability. However, it also means paladins are not required to arrest Evildoers and turn them over to "proper authorities". Paladins ARE "proper authorities" and the DEFAULT punishment for demonstrable Evil is death. 9) That means that if an Evil-doing orc tries to surrender the paladin is not NECESSARILY obligated to accept it. If the paladin does accept it they are not NECESSARILY promising the captive that they will not be executed. IOW, someone who 30 seconds ago was trying to kill you does not deserve to live simply because he stopped trying and ASKS for mercy. ASKING for mercy does not mean you DESERVE it. 10) Forgot one more important point: Do not EVER directly equate Lawful alignment with Law-and-order/crime-and-punishment codes of law. Lawful as regards alignment does not mean "Obeys and respects all laws". The opposite of Lawful is not UNlawful - it's Chaos. The label of "Lawful" alignment is about how the character views the world, how he feels HE should act if not how everyone should act, and reflects the idea that actions have consequences. It is NOT trying to address how he feels about parking enforcement or the felony conviction rate in the nearest town. Paladins obey the laws of the land because their Paladin code (and as a part of obeying THAT code their LG alignment) tells them that laws have a place in society in ensuring certain kinds of desired behavior and helping to establish appropriate consequences for UNdesired behavior.Something to guve to your DM. If he doesn't like it, fine. Ask him to come up with something so you can play according to it. If he gives you some BS about, "Oh, everyone knows what Good and Lawful is deep down", call him on that. Being "Good", "Lawful" or anything else is a matter of cultural perspective. Also remind him that you can't read his mind and since it is his game, it is his rules you must adhere to if you want to play a paladin.
KJW 09-17-05, 10:32 AM	The problem is that all DMs, as well as players, have different opinions on paladins and their code. Some make playing a paladin nearly impossible, others let paladins do anything including evil acts. You need to talk to your DM and get him to explain his take on paladins and then explain you position and try to find a fair compromise. In my campaign, I have a PC playing a disenchanted paladin who doubts her god and faith, is constantly struggling with depression whenever a PC or NPC of the party dies, and at times is verbally caustic and bitter. She is also the most practical member of the party, talking them out of assaulting entrenched evils and focusing on more solvable problems. She would have no qualms about ambushing evil, or attacking first, if that was the best tactic for the situation. Though she prefers to talk in all situations and respects the rights of prisoners. Is she a paragon of paladinhood? Not even close. Is she a good paladin? Yes. Its the whole picture that is important, not any one act. Paladins are so misunderstood by most of the D&D community. Most DMs are too hard on them, and a lot of players just don't understand the challenges to properly playing a paladin. You need to talk to you DM, make your pitch on who is your paladin and get him to come halfway. Here are two rules you should both agree to. The first rule is that the DM should not discuss code issues during the game, this should be discussed after the game. Otherwise this will disrupt the game. The second rule is that you should decide the issue on NPC grounds. If an NPC paladin did what I did would he be punished. I find that this usually makes an issue clearer. If your DM agrees, great, if not then draw up another character because you and your DM will just get into too much conflict to make this work.
High Octane 09-17-05, 12:41 PM	YOU did good. Anyonje who says otherwise is being an idiot. The paladins code encourages him to be honorable, not stupid, and in battle, then the safety of the innocent comes first, THEN the safety of his allies, then his own safety, and if at all possible, next is the showing of mercy to one's enemies. If you had refused to fight that orc, you would have put your own friend into danger. Healing yourself when no one else is hurt? YES THAT'S ALLOWED! The only POSSIBLE reason I could see that being bad is if you only have a little healing left and there is still dangers that could harm your more sensitive allies present. (mid battle) Even then it isn't breaking the code to do so, it's just possibly unsound tactics. From the sound of things, you are doing well. Keep it up. And yes, ask your DM whats acceptable. If he says striking the back is not allowed even in battle, leave. I mean it, leave. Tell him that if he is forcing a paladin to use unsound, unsafe tactics and hesitation in battle to protect his friends just because his enemy MIGHT not be facing his direction, then he is essentially making a paladin unplayable.
Ni! 09-17-05, 03:03 PM	Pick up the PHB and beat him over the head with it screaming "No :censored:ing facing rules! DO YOU UNDERSTADND?"
Kalli 09-17-05, 07:15 PM	At most, you might have committed a minor "Oopsie" with cutting down the Orc like that -- but it was the heat of battle, the Orcs were definitely continuing to act evil even if they weren't (highly unlikely, I gather), and your comrade and ally of justice was in danger. AND you were doing this in the first place to protect a noncombatant innocent -- the farmer. Even calling it an "Oopsie" is nitpicking. If the DM is fine with your portrayal of your character and his Code, that's what matters. I see no real problems here. The only thing, if you're really worried, is maybe replace that "I WILL KILL YOU" with something more along the lines of "Cease thine evil ways or prepare to leave this mortal coil!" Or whatever is more appropriate vocabulary and grammatically for your character.
feartheinvinceblehamster 09-17-05, 08:20 PM	:teach: actually, the biggest problem with the book of exalted deeds is that it is a poorly thought out piece of garbage, and it loses points instantly because no one wants to see a hideous half-orc paladin staring at two cubuses
LCD2YOU 09-17-05, 10:10 PM	:teach: actually, the biggest problem with the book of exalted deeds is that it is a poorly thought out piece of garbage, and it loses points instantly because no one wants to see a hideous half-orc paladin staring at two cubusesAh yes, the "True Love" problem. I guess the Half-Orc Paladin forgot to check up on the last victims of the two lovebirds. I take it that they are in love now somehow lessens their hunger for stealing the life out of their victims.
ShadowDragon8685 09-17-05, 10:47 PM	Pick up the PHB and beat him over the head with it screaming "No :censored:ing facing rules! DO YOU UNDERSTADND?" Extra points if you do it from behind. Without any warning whatsoever. Feel free to have dipped the pages in liquid concrete before your sneak attack, too.