Did I miss something? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Did I miss something? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
On_the_wings_of_TPK
12-21-04, 11:52 AM <Rant>

Could someone please tell were it is writen that a player has the right to play whitch PrC they :censored: well please. Personally I'm more of a "each campaign needs its own balance" type DM. But this is getting really hard when I have to explain to my players six different times in one month, that the incantratrix/shifter/necromancer/etc. is not fit for my campiagn. Apart from being a cart full of stinking shameless cheese, one is a Faerunian PrC (we're not in Faerun), another is from 3.0 material and we're 3.5, and the last is Evil (we don't do evil). Seriously, is there a section in the PHB or somewere that I missed that says, "lo, and a player may take any PrC that finds its way into print, be it Dragon magazine, core, or crayonned in on a cocktail napkin you mysteriously woke up with in your hand after a night of only Wee Jas knows what."

</Rant>
siege72
12-21-04, 12:55 PM <Rant>

Could someone please tell were it is writen that a player has the right to play whitch PrC they :censored: well please. Personally I'm more of a "each campaign needs its own balance" type DM. But this is getting really hard when I have to explain to my players six different times in one month, that the incantratrix/shifter/necromancer/etc. is not fit for my campiagn. Apart from being a cart full of stinking shameless cheese, one is a Faerunian PrC (we're not in Faerun), another is from 3.0 material and we're 3.5, and the last is Evil (we don't do evil). Seriously, is there a section in the PHB or somewere that I missed that says, "lo, and a player may take any PrC that finds its way into print, be it Dragon magazine, core, or crayonned in on a cocktail napkin you mysteriously woke up with in your hand after a night of only Wee Jas knows what."
</Rant>
You could do what I do... In my house rules, I explicitly say which books are being used -- and that as DM, I have the right to exclude or alter anything in those books.
Morwen
12-21-04, 01:14 PM Nowhere is it written that a player is entitled to any PrC (or anything else, for that matter :p). On the contrary, the DMG states that all PrCs should be considered house rules, and in all cases are up to DM-discretion regarding which ones to include in a given campaign.

So, stand up for your balanced game; you're doing the right thing :)
Razoreface
12-21-04, 09:22 PM I think there's a line somewhere that actually says that prestige classes are basically up to a DM to allow in. Check in some of the 3.0 class books or the start of the classes chapter in the DMG. :)
TLomon
12-21-04, 09:33 PM Here are your solutions:

Incantratrix: Allow it once the character finds a portal to Faerun... one way. (Making them an NPC)
Shifter: Don't allow it.
Necromancer: Allow it, turning the character evil, and as such, an NPC.

Muhahahahaahah!

But, on a more serious note... You are the DM. Prestige classes are all considered house rules. The players have no room to gripe.
FriendoftheDork
12-21-04, 11:05 PM What's the problem, just say no. They can't take any PrC without your permission. Period. PrCs are optional (not the same as a house rule, but close).
Encard
12-22-04, 12:28 AM It's not written anywhere. By the same token, it's not written anywhere that players can't ask for a PrC they want. It's really not that difficult to review this sort of thing, and you haven't given us any indication that you've specifically banned sources and the players are asking for things from them.

Also, as I remember it, isn't the official ruling 3.0 material is considered valid unless actually updated for 3.5? I could be off here, but I seem to remember seeing that.
On_the_wings_of_TPK
12-22-04, 02:06 AM It's not written anywhere. By the same token, it's not written anywhere that players can't ask for a PrC they want. It's really not that difficult to review this sort of thing, and you haven't given us any indication that you've specifically banned sources and the players are asking for things from them.

Also, as I remember it, isn't the official ruling 3.0 material is considered valid unless actually updated for 3.5? I could be off here, but I seem to remember seeing that.

Actually I do, Before the start of any campiagn I hand out a list of, amoung other things, witch books i will be allowing, (if I don't tell you it's allowed asume it isn't) and what i'm house ruling for the campaign.

Example: Their current campiagn, I allow the core rule books, the complete cycle, and the books of exalted deeds and vile darkness.

No what I was *****ing about was that inevitably a player will insist on playing X PrC or getting X item for lord only knows were, and then act insulted when I want to look it over first, let alone say, "I'll think about it." Or "No." I'm not saying that I don't say yes or that I trouble saying no.

What I am trying to figure out is why players always feel that they can whine/bride/argue/theaten/etc their way into getting what they want. Were are they coming from on this? Why isn't the DM's final disission on something final anymore?
General Dorsey
12-22-04, 02:31 AM What I am trying to figure out is why players always feel that they can whine/bride/argue/theaten/etc their way into getting what they want. Were are they coming from on this? Why isn't the DM's final disission on something final anymore?

This isn't a gaming issue then. It's a problem with authority and respect. If your players respect you and the authority that comes with being DM, then there will be a little bargaining in the beginning but it will change to acceptance quickly.

If, as DM, you are wishy-washy, then they will do as most people and continue to fight for what they think they can get. The squeeky wheel gets the grease theory.

My players ask me once or twice for something. Sometimes we'll debate, but usually they say "fine, I'll play something else." They know immediately whether I'm even open for debate. If I give a flat, definitative "No." There is not much room there so it may not be worth the effort. If I hesitate or say "hmm...no I don't think so" they will argue for a bit. If I ask why they want whatever they want, we can talk about it for days. Sometimes I'll call or email them about my decision and it will stand.

They act the way they do because you allow it. Everyone is like this, not just your players. Trust me on this one, I work in retail and have been in resturaunt management, people don't change no matter what they are doing. It's up to you to be consistant and firm.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
On_the_wings_of_TPK 12-21-04, 11:52 AM	<Rant> Could someone please tell were it is writen that a player has the right to play whitch PrC they :censored: well please. Personally I'm more of a "each campaign needs its own balance" type DM. But this is getting really hard when I have to explain to my players six different times in one month, that the incantratrix/shifter/necromancer/etc. is not fit for my campiagn. Apart from being a cart full of stinking shameless cheese, one is a Faerunian PrC (we're not in Faerun), another is from 3.0 material and we're 3.5, and the last is Evil (we don't do evil). Seriously, is there a section in the PHB or somewere that I missed that says, "lo, and a player may take any PrC that finds its way into print, be it Dragon magazine, core, or crayonned in on a cocktail napkin you mysteriously woke up with in your hand after a night of only Wee Jas knows what." </Rant>
siege72 12-21-04, 12:55 PM	<Rant> Could someone please tell were it is writen that a player has the right to play whitch PrC they :censored: well please. Personally I'm more of a "each campaign needs its own balance" type DM. But this is getting really hard when I have to explain to my players six different times in one month, that the incantratrix/shifter/necromancer/etc. is not fit for my campiagn. Apart from being a cart full of stinking shameless cheese, one is a Faerunian PrC (we're not in Faerun), another is from 3.0 material and we're 3.5, and the last is Evil (we don't do evil). Seriously, is there a section in the PHB or somewere that I missed that says, "lo, and a player may take any PrC that finds its way into print, be it Dragon magazine, core, or crayonned in on a cocktail napkin you mysteriously woke up with in your hand after a night of only Wee Jas knows what." </Rant> You could do what I do... In my house rules, I explicitly say which books are being used -- and that as DM, I have the right to exclude or alter anything in those books.
Morwen 12-21-04, 01:14 PM	Nowhere is it written that a player is entitled to any PrC (or anything else, for that matter :p). On the contrary, the DMG states that all PrCs should be considered house rules, and in all cases are up to DM-discretion regarding which ones to include in a given campaign. So, stand up for your balanced game; you're doing the right thing :)
Razoreface 12-21-04, 09:22 PM	I think there's a line somewhere that actually says that prestige classes are basically up to a DM to allow in. Check in some of the 3.0 class books or the start of the classes chapter in the DMG. :)
TLomon 12-21-04, 09:33 PM	Here are your solutions: Incantratrix: Allow it once the character finds a portal to Faerun... one way. (Making them an NPC) Shifter: Don't allow it. Necromancer: Allow it, turning the character evil, and as such, an NPC. Muhahahahaahah! But, on a more serious note... You are the DM. Prestige classes are all considered house rules. The players have no room to gripe.
FriendoftheDork 12-21-04, 11:05 PM	What's the problem, just say no. They can't take any PrC without your permission. Period. PrCs are optional (not the same as a house rule, but close).
Encard 12-22-04, 12:28 AM	It's not written anywhere. By the same token, it's not written anywhere that players can't ask for a PrC they want. It's really not that difficult to review this sort of thing, and you haven't given us any indication that you've specifically banned sources and the players are asking for things from them. Also, as I remember it, isn't the official ruling 3.0 material is considered valid unless actually updated for 3.5? I could be off here, but I seem to remember seeing that.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 12-22-04, 02:06 AM	It's not written anywhere. By the same token, it's not written anywhere that players can't ask for a PrC they want. It's really not that difficult to review this sort of thing, and you haven't given us any indication that you've specifically banned sources and the players are asking for things from them. Also, as I remember it, isn't the official ruling 3.0 material is considered valid unless actually updated for 3.5? I could be off here, but I seem to remember seeing that. Actually I do, Before the start of any campiagn I hand out a list of, amoung other things, witch books i will be allowing, (if I don't tell you it's allowed asume it isn't) and what i'm house ruling for the campaign. Example: Their current campiagn, I allow the core rule books, the complete cycle, and the books of exalted deeds and vile darkness. No what I was *****ing about was that inevitably a player will insist on playing X PrC or getting X item for lord only knows were, and then act insulted when I want to look it over first, let alone say, "I'll think about it." Or "No." I'm not saying that I don't say yes or that I trouble saying no. What I am trying to figure out is why players always feel that they can whine/bride/argue/theaten/etc their way into getting what they want. Were are they coming from on this? Why isn't the DM's final disission on something final anymore?
General Dorsey 12-22-04, 02:31 AM	What I am trying to figure out is why players always feel that they can whine/bride/argue/theaten/etc their way into getting what they want. Were are they coming from on this? Why isn't the DM's final disission on something final anymore? This isn't a gaming issue then. It's a problem with authority and respect. If your players respect you and the authority that comes with being DM, then there will be a little bargaining in the beginning but it will change to acceptance quickly. If, as DM, you are wishy-washy, then they will do as most people and continue to fight for what they think they can get. The squeeky wheel gets the grease theory. My players ask me once or twice for something. Sometimes we'll debate, but usually they say "fine, I'll play something else." They know immediately whether I'm even open for debate. If I give a flat, definitative "No." There is not much room there so it may not be worth the effort. If I hesitate or say "hmm...no I don't think so" they will argue for a bit. If I ask why they want whatever they want, we can talk about it for days. Sometimes I'll call or email them about my decision and it will stand. They act the way they do because you allow it. Everyone is like this, not just your players. Trust me on this one, I work in retail and have been in resturaunt management, people don't change no matter what they are doing. It's up to you to be consistant and firm.