Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Death Unlimited 11-11-04, 10:19 PM	I am in the process of working on a new character. I want to play a monk, but want to stay very far away from the Monk stereotype of the guy with the bo stick and the big hat who goes around spouting wisdom like a cross between Yoda and Master Po all day. I have the physical picture of the guy in my head...a fellow from The North of the FR setting(going to be in FR), big fellow, nosering, tattoos, wears a big fur cloak, boots, belt, leather arm bracers, real barbarian looking actually, long black hair, goatee or something. Drinks like a demon in pubs(i can see him challenging dwarves and others to drinking contests), armwrestles, plain out wrestles and the like for fun(i can also see him wanting to take on multiple people just for the fun of it), perhaps carries a walking stick(quarterstaff) with some runes or something cut into it, a heavy crossbow and a handaxe. So it will throw people off I am sure when he busts out some monkish stuff. Perhaps the Jotunbrud feat would fit his appearance. Even tho Monks are more the Dex/Wis type it seems for scores, I definately would takc a higher score into this one's Strength. Thing is, his personality is I guess sorta chaotic so far, what with his more brawler type personality. Now, the Monk class of course is lawful(I picture him more neutral aligned), and the abilities seem kinda wierd for what i had in mind. I first am thinking about just calling the abilities different things to suit him, more Northern type names or whatnot rather than the names the book gives(like Ki strike). I guess this seems easier than trying to totally adjust the Monk class. I think somwehre here before there was a link to a Brawler type of class, but I havn't been able to find it. I dunno if I can picture every Monk ability on this guy, is it reasonable to perhaps ask the DM to perhaps remove a couple abilities of something, to replace them with something more fitting, or something else? Of course DM will have final say, I don't wanna make the guy broken or anything, but just don't want to go around calling people Daniel-San.
Xarian 11-12-04, 02:17 AM	Be a fighter. Work on pumping up your grappling/unarmed attacks.
Nova_blade 11-12-04, 02:45 AM	I agree with the above, a fighter can take improved unarmed strike and still have plenty of feats to spend.
Sucineri 11-12-04, 03:39 AM	Well, if your DM has Unearthed Arcana, there are different varieties of stuff you can do to personalize your character. Like I am playing a gestalt character who is a barbarian/druid, but I didn't like the idea of wildshaping as a druid so I traded it for some monk stuff like extra speed, wisdom to AC, etc.
allenchan 11-12-04, 04:05 AM	I agree, sounds more of a fighter / reaping mauler. nothing you said was very... monk-esque. There's the shou disciple from Unapproachable East. They're sort'uv monks, except dont have to be lawful and can use handaxes. 9sounds perfect imo) or both, since reaping mauler is only 5 levels :p
Callista 11-12-04, 04:50 AM	It's just a pity that the Monk seems to be the only core-rules unarmed-fighting specialist in the game. That's like restricting melee fighting to paladins, and expecting every paladin to be and act lawful good... There just doesn't seem to be a proper category for your burly wrestler-type character. Perhaps multiclassing or prestige classes can solve your problem, though. Try to find something that specializes in grappling. A level or two of Barbarian would also not be amiss. And take feats which allow you to grapple better, max out skills like Escape Artist, et cetera. You might also consider Improved Bull Rush (i.e., grab an enemy, push him against a wall, and pin him there.) How about using something like brass knuckles to fight with? I don't think there are D&D stats; but you could work it out with your DM to have them be something like a set of gauntlets (lethal damage without a bona fide weapon in your hand). Also see if you can devise fighter feats to give you higher unarmed damage (say, can you specialize in Unarmed for the purpose of things like weapon specialization?) You might have to work on maknig this character viable, since D&D has relegated unarmed combat so exclusively to monks. Something I just thought of (and please, those of you who read this, tell me if it's balanced?): Perhaps you could just play a fighter, but give up all or most of your fighter bonus feats in exchange for a monk's unarmed attack damage?
Death Unlimited 11-12-04, 09:10 AM	Thanks for the input, guys. Yeah, I considered being a fighter at first, but I did want the increased damage, since that IS htis guy's forte...I don't try to twink out damage all the time, but if a regular fighter can get +5 keen shocking burst battleaxes, I don't think it's too much to ask to want the fellow to eventually get to smack for a little more since his other weapons are solely backup. The Shou disciple looks pretty cool, but he doesn't have the regional qualifications for it, and it still seems even a little too 'eastern' for this fellow. But again, perhaps stuff can be adjusted. But the Reaping Mauler PRC looks perfect for this guy in the future when he can go for it. I havn't gotten to really delve into UA; but I read some of it, it's one of those books that a lot of DMs have a love/hate relationship with(i'd allow some of the stuff but not others in my games), but some skill swapping seems to be balanced enough. Callista, I agree with what you say too. In D&D history it seems the Monk has always been that eastern flavored fellow. I mean, I honestly have nothing AGAINST it but when someone wants to do something else(like I am trying to do) it gets tough. I had actually started like last year or something, or longer, to develop a Brawler core class for those people. It's been so long I forget everything, but I recall they did have light armor prof, a small but differing set of weapons they could use, they got the increased unarmed damage, d10 HP, some bonus feats but lacked a lot of the special monk abilities(a few bonus feats made up for this. I recall without them the monk was just WAY more powerful). I believe they did get some faster speed, and eventually their own AC bonus from just being battered all the time and toughening up. :D I never got to playtest the class tho, so I don't know if it was balanced. I might try to rework the class again to see if I can come up with a viable core. But til then(and other DMs might not like new cores), I think if I mix levels of Fighter, Barbarian, Reaping Mauler PRC and maybe work with trading some bonus feats for unarmed damage increasing instead. It's a shame the Earth's Embrace feat is in the OA only I think, because that feat's perfect for this guy. He doesn't only wrestle(pounding the heck out of someone with his fists, knees, boots or head is just as viable) but wrestling feats are definately getting taken. And yes, if I take Improved Unarmed, I think he'll do lethal damage anyway with his hands, without brass knuckles. And you can indeed specialize, super specialize, improved crit, the whole nine. So even if his damage didn't go up, I could still get extra to hit and damage, plus better crits, etc. I was looking at all the Unarmed and Grappling feats(improved unarmed, bull rush/imp. bull rush, imp. grapple, Earths embrace if I can get a more FR friendly version of it). The one feat Flying Kick from Sword and Fist was cool, and of course it doesn't mean your guy has to fly around Matrix style, it simply means you do double Str on an unarmed charge I believe, unless I am mixing it up with another feat. (I could flying headbutt and it would count :D) I also took a second look at the Jotunbrud feat from FR...for North specific characters. I took the feat because it just fit the big ale swiller, but now that I think what I am doing with him, that feat may out and out nearly break him :mymy: Escape Artist might be tough to max, since the classes don't offer it as a core feat...I think it was 8 ranks t get Reaping Mauler... and as a cross class skill that's level...13 I think. whew! I might have to class dip to get this skill as class....(rogue or ranger I think offers it) but I hate to class dip into stuff that makes no sense just for one skill..unless again, DM and PC collaboration might allow me to switch one skill out of a skill list for Escape Artist instead. :) Again, thanx for the input! :) I will toy with this a bit(with some possible progressions, I don't really like to plan a class out to 20 but I just wanna see what it might look like on the way up).
Xarian 11-12-04, 09:51 AM	If you're worried about magic weapons, see if you can finegle your DM into letting you get a wizard to make magic gauntlets. That way, you could still punch people and have their heads explode.
DrMorganes 11-12-04, 09:56 AM	This character concept reminds me of Jarnauga from Tad Williams' book The Dragonbone Chair: a northman of rough appearance and occasionally rough manners, but who was actually a respected member of an elite learned order. Nothing says that your 1st Level PC needs to be a teenager. Perhaps your barbarous monk has knocked around for a while, drinking and brawling, before having some sort of life-altering experience (perhaps while drunk) which led him to follow the monk's path. I don't have access to the specifics of the PrC, but would Drunken Master (from, I think, Complete Warrior) fit this concept at all? Recall as well that while monks have historically been based on the Shao Lin monestaries in Kung Fu, 3.x specifically states that monks may be found in all areas of the world. I like the idea of an outpost of learning situated in the far North, where the monks' tenets of discipline and minimalism are just as - if not more - important. Check Unearthed Arcana for some of the monk style variants, for inspiration if nothing else. As for the eastern flavor, much of it depends on your depiction of your character. Think of Riggs in the Lethal Weapon movies (particularly the first one): wild, unpredictable, and able to kick your ass while making it look like an accident. One could argue he had some monkish skills, but he was far from Kwai Chang Caine...
The_Fan 11-12-04, 10:06 AM	Death: Take a gauntlet. Then your "unarmed" attacks can get all the enhancements that a fighter can get on his battleaxe. A +5 frost gauntlet of speed is certainly something to be feared. Another point: Who's to say he's still a monk? You could take a few levels of monk and then change alignment. Monks keep all abilities after changing alignment, they just can't advance any further. Taking up to level 5 might be good and then shifting to neutral could be interesting provided you work it into your backstory. Finally, for a more nordic bent on class abilities, perhaps instead of simply developing them through training he gradually tattoos or scars the norse runes into his body? Or perhaps you could rename them based on the gods? For instance, still mind could be Gerd's Heart, named after the giantess who nothing short of the threat of ragnarok could sway her mind.
Death Unlimited 11-12-04, 10:23 AM	Age wise, I actually pictured the guy in his mid 20's about. Still young but a little more than a teen. Like I said, visually I can see the guy so easily in my head, from the nosering to the bones pierced thru his chest(gotta show you can take the pain of course) to the little goatee to the drapes of dead animal fur all around. :D Jotunbrud puts him at a base 6 foot 4, I'd probably have him even bigger for character purposes. I havn't even though stats too much yet, but I know I am not dumping Charisma, I can actually see the fella kind of likeable(well, from the people who don't p*** him off :D), not not just sitting quietly in the back while everyone else figures out what to do. Even the background is getting more fleshed out slowly. But its just classing the guy thats a problem. I checked out the Drunken Master, and it's not totally it...his drinking is more of a side thing, if that makes any sense. I actually thought about it at first. But again, maybe there can be a more localized version of the class. And magic gauntlets are a viable weapon of course, a set of MW gauntlets can be enchanted just like any other weapon. Just finding them flat out tends to be rare, so it's something the PC would have to go about themselves, typically. I will sift more thru Unearthed Arcana. Again, I only got to look thru it a bit. But you make a good point about Lethal Weapon, and there of course are tons of ideas of characters that might have had 'monkish' abilities but be far from Grasshopper. ;) I guess that evne tho I KNOW this, when you read the books and see the abilities it's hard to help. I have some good ideas so far from folks, and I got time. About those Nordic tats, I had thought about them already, I pictured the guy's arms and chest with some tats on them. And yeah, renaming abilities was the first thing that popped into my mind, but it was the lawful thing I had to work around. Well, I got time to figure the guy out, but again, a lot of good ideas, I just gotta think about what fits best. I had also toyed with the idea of taking a few levels of monk, then switching out for whatever reason(perhaps he just got a little TOO wild for 'em :))
Lord_Anthrax 11-12-04, 10:27 AM	You could petition your DM to allow you to play a Brawler-type Monk, give up some of the most esoteric abilities(Abundant Step, Diamond Soul, Quivering Palm, Tongue of Sun and Moon, Empty Body, Perfect Self), and if you go with the Jotunbrud feat perhaps create a two-fisted tough guy/brick type who's trying to become more like his Giant ancestors. Immunity to Disease and Poison could be examples of Giantish toughness, as could Still Mind and Wholeness of Body(ain't got time to bleed). The HD and BAB progression of a Monk are the same as a Giant's racial HD. The speed increase would be Giant Strides or some such, and the development of Ki Strike more like Iron Fist. Another thought could be instead of Wis bonus, Con bonus to AC(I can take a punch). Could be Chaos-aligned instead of Law and gain that for your "Ki Strike" instead. Perhaps penultimate ability is that your type becomes Giant and either you become considered Large for most things or gain some kind of Str boost.
scrollreader 11-13-04, 07:56 AM	PsyWars get good grappling powers, and some nifty monk-like abilities. Grip of Iron and Expansion. Also, the Bear Totem Barbarian might be nice. Heck, do both. :D
Death Unlimited 11-14-04, 09:15 AM	Read a couple more possible ideas. Nw I just gotta figure out what's most balanced and best. :D Another idea I had come up with is a takeoff on the feats traded for the increased attack die...perhaps I can work with the DM to MAKE feats that allow this, so I'd have to take them anyway. I guess naming them can come later, but there could be a feat that allows the d3 to d4 increase, then the d4 to d6, d6 to d8, etc. But to balance the later ones(d8 and up), perhaps make a prerequisite of needing a certain BaB(for instanc,e the monk doesn't get the d8 damage die til lv. 4, so maybe for the d8 die it would be prereq BAB+4, for the d10, +8, etc.), because if we left them as is, with the amount of feats a fighter gets the damage die could be increased by a terribly low level. The first 2 increases wouldnt be bad(monks start at d6). I am also thinking monks might be barred from taking said feat(hey, fighters only are limited to Weapon Specialization, so i don't see a problem with that, monks get the increases anyway.) Of course, the other prerequisite of each would be you need the one previous to it. Does that idea sound at all balanced? I figure, if I want to PRC into stuff I'd have to take other feats as well(and I wouldn't want to burn EVRY feat right away on it, i'd still need to take improved unarmed strike, which could also be a prereq to taking the feats, and all the nifty bull rush and grappling feats.) I guess it would be one of those things i'd have to have playtested first or something in a test campaign before it got integrated into a full game. Heh, I went from having almost no options that I could think of to a ton thanks to this thread, now I just gotta figure what is best :D The idea of working on the more 'chaotic' monk version is cool, but it seems that having the disadvantage of 'having to be lawful' is more of one than 'can't be lawful.'
Nephite 11-14-04, 11:13 AM	I'd say just see if you can switch around some of the abilities, or change their names to different things but keep them the same. Example: 'Ki strike' is now called 'Tough Fist' but remains the same. The bonus to AC isn't from experience, but from the toughening of the skin that happens when you repeatidly get the crap beaten out of you. For the brawlering/drinking thing, who's to say he doesn't simply enjoy a game of wrestling? And there is always the "Drunken Master" PrC... Several of the 'monk-esq' feats can also be swapped out. At 1st level you can take improved grapple. For 2nd and 6th talk to your DM and see if you can get something less stereotypical. Perhaps Improved Bull Rush at 6th level? You can always make his attacks less stereotypical as well. Instead of a "Double Panther Chop" he can simply do a right and left hook. One final thing: for the less stereotypical monk, give power attack and cleave at early levels.
Death Unlimited 11-14-04, 07:59 PM	Oh, power attack and cleave were already given. I already knew the feats I wanted to give the guy(well, for now. Of course when you play a character, they develop, and may be interested in taking something else.) I didn't exactly sit there and plan him for 20 levels, but Power Attack, Cleave, Bull Rush(and Improved), Improved Unarmed Strike and Grapple, Clever Wrestling, Jotunbrud(one of the first), Earth's Embrace(found it again in CW), Destructive Rage(he will have some barb levels in this version). I also was thinking about Sunder/Improved Sunder(if anything, for style and intimidation purposes), and Improved Toughness. Of course, there is the weapon focus and specialization for unarmed strikes, the improved versions of both, and the improved crit. Heck, there are tons of feats I can see the guy with. With a lot of fighter levels(since reaping mauler is only 5 levels), there is always two weapon fighting. By the look of things, that just might be a viable mix of feats to build an effective unarmed character without being a monk, even if I can't get the damage increases. Tho they'd be nice :D Who knows, plenty of options open and it's not like the guy has to be done overnight. I think i might post him up in the character section when i get what i want done with him. :)