Dispel Magic Questions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Dispel Magic Questions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
KmartKommando
07-29-06, 08:49 PM So, here the party is, all flying thanks to a Mass Fly spell, when a creature pops up and casts a targetted Greater Dispel Magic on the "Mass Fly spell effect". The caster makes its dispel check and the whole party stops flying. Not only the small group that was in front of him, but also the guys around the corner,and the ones down the hall, out of line of sight and line of effect of the dispel.
Does this seem right? Magic is pretty much all targetted based on either line of sight or caught in a spread. This was neither. By the DM's interpretation, a Mass Fly-equipped party could split up, and half of them teleport to some city a thousand miles away, and a dispel cast on either group would end the spell for both. :rolleyes:

Second, if someone is flying through use of the 2rd level Fly spell, and is hit by a dispel magic that takes it out, they fall 60ft per round for 1d6 rounds. Does it seem like overkill, or a misreading of the rules, for a DM's creatures (or anyone, for that matter) to cast dispel magic, kill the fly spell, then do a targetted dispel on the "feather fall-like effect" that is the fly spell wearing off? It is already dispelled, and I am of the opinion that there is nothing left to dispel after 1 spell is cast and 1 spell is dispelled. Seems like a cheap way of getting PCs to fall by creatures with at-will dispel magics.
Cifer
07-29-06, 09:19 PM Second, if someone is flying through use of the 2rd level Fly spell, and is hit by a dispel magic that takes it out, they fall 60ft per round for 1d6 rounds. Does it seem like overkill, or a misreading of the rules, for a DM's creatures (or anyone, for that matter) to cast dispel magic, kill the fly spell, then do a targetted dispel on the "feather fall-like effect" that is the fly spell wearing off? It is already dispelled, and I am of the opinion that there is nothing left to dispel after 1 spell is cast and 1 spell is dispelled. Seems like a cheap way of getting PCs to fall by creatures with at-will dispel magics.
I see nothing that supports the idea that one could dispel that effect. It says that this effect is already the magic beginning to fade.

Magic is pretty much all targetted based on either line of sight or caught in a spread. This was neither. By the DM's interpretation, a Mass Fly-equipped party could split up, and half of them teleport to some city a thousand miles away, and a dispel cast on either group would end the spell for both.
Actually, from a reading of the rules done at 3:17 AM, it seems your DM is right. If you want to view it another way, try this one: If you see into a dragon's cave through a tiny hole, you see only a part of the dragon - still, if you finger-of-death it, the whole dragon is killed, not just the small part you actually saw. In the same way, a small part of the tapestry of magic is enough in order to grip at and unravel it.
Paxar
07-29-06, 09:20 PM Ok, I don't know where to find a mass fly spell, if it was created for your campaign, then your DM has say on how it gets dispelled (as in, whether or not it effects both groups if dispelled on one).

I agree with not being able to dispel the "feather fall" effect of an ended fly spell. The spell has ended, there's nothing to dispel. Now if they put up an antimagic field in your area, that would negate the effect until you fell through it, then it would resume. So to do any damage, you'd have to have multiple AMFs stacked up together for a good number of feet.
KmartKommando
07-29-06, 09:49 PM Mass Fly, pg 108 Complete Arcane

Same as fly, but multiple creatures, and if any creature moves more than 30ft from any another creature with the same spell, they lose it. (which is actually quite dumb, considering no other mass spell has that resirction, and since combat is sort of turn-based, no one can move together in a group in combat without ready, ready, ready, single move, rinse, repeat :rolleyes: )

We were in small groups to keep the spell active, and if a group loses it, the other doesn't.

The creature saw 3 PCs flying, immediately thought "hmm, must be a mass fly on them...DISPEL MASS FLY!" :confused:
Cifer
07-29-06, 10:18 PM The creature saw 3 PCs flying, immediately thought "hmm, must be a mass fly on them...DISPEL MASS FLY!"
Now guess what spellcraft is for. Would be DC 25 if they see the spell in action, but it's manageable. Also, it's not that hard to figure out that magic probably is a reason for those flying humanoids - the enemy can simply dispel one person (targeted dispel on a creature in order to remove all its buffs, as shown in the last paragraph p223 first column) and then be surprised that all the others go down as well...

Same as fly, but multiple creatures, and if any creature moves more than 30ft from any another creature with the same spell, they lose it. (which is actually quite dumb, considering no other mass spell has that resirction, and since combat is sort of turn-based, no one can move together in a group in combat without ready, ready, ready, single move, rinse, repeat )
Now guess why the mass-version is only two levels higher than the other one, compared to e.g. cure (4) or bull's strength and the other animal enhancments (4).
sanities_eclipse
07-29-06, 10:53 PM If a person dispels a fly spell, then there is NO feather fall effect. The spell states that the magic leaves slowly at the end of duration and this is what causes the feather fall effect. If a dispel happens, the spell and ALL effects of the spell are cancelled instantly and the creature will, sadly, fall like a rock.
Nom
07-29-06, 11:44 PM If a person dispels a fly spell, then there is NO feather fall effect. The spell states that the magic leaves slowly at the end of duration and this is what causes the feather fall effect. If a dispel happens, the spell and ALL effects of the spell are cancelled instantly and the creature will, sadly, fall like a rock.Please, go read fly (PH pg 232). Especially the very last sentence of the description (before components).
KmartKommando
07-30-06, 04:17 AM Now guess what spellcraft is for. Would be DC 25 if they see the spell in action, but it's manageable.

Good point, except for the fact that my party's characters can't do that as well, even when we ask to try to observe and determine what spells are around. 4 peeps with maxed-out spellcraft, and no one even gets the chance to ID spells that accurately.

"ok, I got a 35 spellcraft check to determine the spells on him"
"you can't do that, you're not interacting with the spell's efect"
"...but, I'm looking right at it.."

We need a new feat, like:

NPC's Eyes: You can tell what spells are on your enemy, even if you are a level 1 commoner. Special: you also gain 150 hit points, a +40 to your grapple check, and SR 37.

Improved NPC's Eyes: as above, plus you get a +5 vorpal weapon only usable by NPCs, and a contingent teleport upon reaching -1 hit points. :D
sanities_eclipse
07-30-06, 09:39 AM Please, go read fly (PH pg 232). Especially the very last sentence of the description (before components).

Your right. I missed that.
Merestil Haye
07-30-06, 10:47 AM So, here the party is, all flying thanks to a Mass Fly spell, when a creature pops up and casts a targetted Greater Dispel Magic on the "Mass Fly spell effect". The caster makes its dispel check and the whole party stops flying. Not only the small group that was in front of him, but also the guys around the corner,and the ones down the hall, out of line of sight and line of effect of the dispel.

Does this seem right? Magic is pretty much all targetted based on either line of sight or caught in a spread. This was neither. By the DM's interpretation, a Mass Fly-equipped party could split up, and half of them teleport to some city a thousand miles away, and a dispel cast on either group would end the spell for both. :rolleyes: Second things first. Either the spell is functioning for all, which means that each recipient must have been within 30' of another, or it is not. Your analogy is simply absurd because the spell can not work that way. If the spell is dispelled, then all characters lose the benefits.

In order to target a specific thing, the caster of Dispel Magic must be able to see (or touch) that thing. The ccaster thus needs to be able to discern the spell to target. Can he detect magic instantaneously at will? If he can, then you have no complaint. I'd want to know how he could do do - or at east the DM state outright that he has some such method, even if he does not want to say what it is.

In the past I've only allowed casters to target spells when they take steps to be able to dicern the spell - usually Detect Magic for three rounds suffices.
kelvinaw273
07-30-06, 11:00 AM Well the only thing I can see your DM does wrong is not allow you to identify spells as easily as the NPCs do. Otherwise, taking out your Fly spell was perfectly legal.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
KmartKommando 07-29-06, 08:49 PM	So, here the party is, all flying thanks to a Mass Fly spell, when a creature pops up and casts a targetted Greater Dispel Magic on the "Mass Fly spell effect". The caster makes its dispel check and the whole party stops flying. Not only the small group that was in front of him, but also the guys around the corner,and the ones down the hall, out of line of sight and line of effect of the dispel. Does this seem right? Magic is pretty much all targetted based on either line of sight or caught in a spread. This was neither. By the DM's interpretation, a Mass Fly-equipped party could split up, and half of them teleport to some city a thousand miles away, and a dispel cast on either group would end the spell for both. :rolleyes: Second, if someone is flying through use of the 2rd level Fly spell, and is hit by a dispel magic that takes it out, they fall 60ft per round for 1d6 rounds. Does it seem like overkill, or a misreading of the rules, for a DM's creatures (or anyone, for that matter) to cast dispel magic, kill the fly spell, then do a targetted dispel on the "feather fall-like effect" that is the fly spell wearing off? It is already dispelled, and I am of the opinion that there is nothing left to dispel after 1 spell is cast and 1 spell is dispelled. Seems like a cheap way of getting PCs to fall by creatures with at-will dispel magics.
Cifer 07-29-06, 09:19 PM	Second, if someone is flying through use of the 2rd level Fly spell, and is hit by a dispel magic that takes it out, they fall 60ft per round for 1d6 rounds. Does it seem like overkill, or a misreading of the rules, for a DM's creatures (or anyone, for that matter) to cast dispel magic, kill the fly spell, then do a targetted dispel on the "feather fall-like effect" that is the fly spell wearing off? It is already dispelled, and I am of the opinion that there is nothing left to dispel after 1 spell is cast and 1 spell is dispelled. Seems like a cheap way of getting PCs to fall by creatures with at-will dispel magics. I see nothing that supports the idea that one could dispel that effect. It says that this effect is already the magic beginning to fade. Magic is pretty much all targetted based on either line of sight or caught in a spread. This was neither. By the DM's interpretation, a Mass Fly-equipped party could split up, and half of them teleport to some city a thousand miles away, and a dispel cast on either group would end the spell for both. Actually, from a reading of the rules done at 3:17 AM, it seems your DM is right. If you want to view it another way, try this one: If you see into a dragon's cave through a tiny hole, you see only a part of the dragon - still, if you finger-of-death it, the whole dragon is killed, not just the small part you actually saw. In the same way, a small part of the tapestry of magic is enough in order to grip at and unravel it.
Paxar 07-29-06, 09:20 PM	Ok, I don't know where to find a mass fly spell, if it was created for your campaign, then your DM has say on how it gets dispelled (as in, whether or not it effects both groups if dispelled on one). I agree with not being able to dispel the "feather fall" effect of an ended fly spell. The spell has ended, there's nothing to dispel. Now if they put up an antimagic field in your area, that would negate the effect until you fell through it, then it would resume. So to do any damage, you'd have to have multiple AMFs stacked up together for a good number of feet.
KmartKommando 07-29-06, 09:49 PM	Mass Fly, pg 108 Complete Arcane Same as fly, but multiple creatures, and if any creature moves more than 30ft from any another creature with the same spell, they lose it. (which is actually quite dumb, considering no other mass spell has that resirction, and since combat is sort of turn-based, no one can move together in a group in combat without ready, ready, ready, single move, rinse, repeat :rolleyes: ) We were in small groups to keep the spell active, and if a group loses it, the other doesn't. The creature saw 3 PCs flying, immediately thought "hmm, must be a mass fly on them...DISPEL MASS FLY!" :confused:
Cifer 07-29-06, 10:18 PM	The creature saw 3 PCs flying, immediately thought "hmm, must be a mass fly on them...DISPEL MASS FLY!" Now guess what spellcraft is for. Would be DC 25 if they see the spell in action, but it's manageable. Also, it's not that hard to figure out that magic probably is a reason for those flying humanoids - the enemy can simply dispel one person (targeted dispel on a creature in order to remove all its buffs, as shown in the last paragraph p223 first column) and then be surprised that all the others go down as well... Same as fly, but multiple creatures, and if any creature moves more than 30ft from any another creature with the same spell, they lose it. (which is actually quite dumb, considering no other mass spell has that resirction, and since combat is sort of turn-based, no one can move together in a group in combat without ready, ready, ready, single move, rinse, repeat ) Now guess why the mass-version is only two levels higher than the other one, compared to e.g. cure (4) or bull's strength and the other animal enhancments (4).
sanities_eclipse 07-29-06, 10:53 PM	If a person dispels a fly spell, then there is NO feather fall effect. The spell states that the magic leaves slowly at the end of duration and this is what causes the feather fall effect. If a dispel happens, the spell and ALL effects of the spell are cancelled instantly and the creature will, sadly, fall like a rock.
Nom 07-29-06, 11:44 PM	If a person dispels a fly spell, then there is NO feather fall effect. The spell states that the magic leaves slowly at the end of duration and this is what causes the feather fall effect. If a dispel happens, the spell and ALL effects of the spell are cancelled instantly and the creature will, sadly, fall like a rock.Please, go read fly (PH pg 232). Especially the very last sentence of the description (before components).
KmartKommando 07-30-06, 04:17 AM	Now guess what spellcraft is for. Would be DC 25 if they see the spell in action, but it's manageable. Good point, except for the fact that my party's characters can't do that as well, even when we ask to try to observe and determine what spells are around. 4 peeps with maxed-out spellcraft, and no one even gets the chance to ID spells that accurately. "ok, I got a 35 spellcraft check to determine the spells on him" "you can't do that, you're not interacting with the spell's efect" "...but, I'm looking right at it.." We need a new feat, like: NPC's Eyes: You can tell what spells are on your enemy, even if you are a level 1 commoner. Special: you also gain 150 hit points, a +40 to your grapple check, and SR 37. Improved NPC's Eyes: as above, plus you get a +5 vorpal weapon only usable by NPCs, and a contingent teleport upon reaching -1 hit points. :D
sanities_eclipse 07-30-06, 09:39 AM	Please, go read fly (PH pg 232). Especially the very last sentence of the description (before components). Your right. I missed that.
Merestil Haye 07-30-06, 10:47 AM	So, here the party is, all flying thanks to a Mass Fly spell, when a creature pops up and casts a targetted Greater Dispel Magic on the "Mass Fly spell effect". The caster makes its dispel check and the whole party stops flying. Not only the small group that was in front of him, but also the guys around the corner,and the ones down the hall, out of line of sight and line of effect of the dispel. Does this seem right? Magic is pretty much all targetted based on either line of sight or caught in a spread. This was neither. By the DM's interpretation, a Mass Fly-equipped party could split up, and half of them teleport to some city a thousand miles away, and a dispel cast on either group would end the spell for both. :rolleyes: Second things first. Either the spell is functioning for all, which means that each recipient must have been within 30' of another, or it is not. Your analogy is simply absurd because the spell can not work that way. If the spell is dispelled, then all characters lose the benefits. In order to target a specific thing, the caster of Dispel Magic must be able to see (or touch) that thing. The ccaster thus needs to be able to discern the spell to target. Can he detect magic instantaneously at will? If he can, then you have no complaint. I'd want to know how he could do do - or at east the DM state outright that he has some such method, even if he does not want to say what it is. In the past I've only allowed casters to target spells when they take steps to be able to dicern the spell - usually Detect Magic for three rounds suffices.
kelvinaw273 07-30-06, 11:00 AM	Well the only thing I can see your DM does wrong is not allow you to identify spells as easily as the NPCs do. Otherwise, taking out your Fly spell was perfectly legal.