Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Draviak 05-18-06, 05:43 PM	Displacement Illusion (Glamer) DM: Undead are immune to displacement it hits you. Player: Ok DM: It has scent it hits you. Player: Ok DM: Its a elemental it hits you. Player: Ok DM: Its immune to mind-affecting effects it hits you. Player: Ok DM: It has tremor since it hits you. Player: Ok My question is do all of these bypass displacment??
geekling 05-18-06, 05:59 PM	It's a light bending effect - not a mind affecting one. True seeing beats displacement, see invisible don't. I could accept scent, since the displacement description for the displacer beast specifies 'unless the attacker can locate the beast with some means other than sight.' But it's an elemental? Since when does elementals have permanent true seeing. Or generic-undead for that matter? Since Displacement is not mind affecting, that one rather goes kerplunk too. Maybe your DM needs to read the spell description for displacement. Mind you, it only gives you a 50% misschance - so they could all still hit. But to dismiss the displacement totally and not rolling your miss chance. If that's what you're implying, it's fishy.
Cadfan 05-18-06, 06:08 PM	None of those bypass displacement.
allenchan 05-18-06, 06:37 PM	None of those bypass displacement. Yup. Shoot your DM in the face with a hammer.
Draviak 05-18-06, 06:41 PM	It is simply not rolled in any of those cases..... I realy need some kind of refrence chart that lists what can get past displacement :( cause this is just sad.
allenchan 05-18-06, 06:49 PM	True seeing gets past displacement, as the spell says. Also, anything that ignores magical concealment gets past. For example, Blindsight would, but not blindsense. Scent, tremorsense, blindsense, etc all locate the square you're in, but do not negate the total concealment of 50%.
dragonseth 05-19-06, 11:19 PM	Your DM pulled that stuff out of his a**. You should have been rolling miss chance.
was_fired 05-20-06, 01:09 AM	None of those bypass it. Tremorsense and Scent only allow the creature to pinpoint you. That means they are aware of what 5ft square you are in. They still have a 50% miss chance. Being an elemental, undead, or imune to mind effects does nothing against displacement either.
Draviak 05-20-06, 03:04 AM	can someone direct me to were it says pinpointing by use of scent says it only locates the square your in cause he says it locates you thus negates it. He also says since its a illusion its mind effecting thus things immune to mind effecting effects are immune to the illusion.
Asciiman 05-20-06, 04:10 AM	Scent This extraordinary ability lets a creature detect approaching enemies, sniff out hidden foes, and track by sense of smell. A creature with the scent ability can detect opponents by sense of smell, generally within 30 feet. If the opponent is upwind, the range is 60 feet. If it is downwind, the range is 15 feet. Strong scents, such as smoke or rotting garbage, can be detected at twice the ranges noted above. Overpowering scents, such as skunk musk or troglodyte stench, can be detected at three times these ranges. The creature detects another creature’s presence but not its specific location. Noting the direction of the scent is a move action. If it moves within 5 feet of the scent’s source, the creature can pinpoint that source. There you go.
geekling 05-20-06, 04:18 AM	About illusions, he is just simply wrong. Ask him to read this page (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm) - it's the SRD page detailing the specifics of spell descriptions. I'll even quote the relevant bits. Illusion Illusion spells deceive the senses or minds of others. They cause people to see things that are not there, not see things that are there, hear phantom noises, or remember things that never happened. Glamer A glamer spell changes a subject’s sensory qualities, making it look, feel, taste, smell, or sound like something else, or even seem to disappear. It is not mind effecting, it affects your senses, not your mind. Indeed ask him to point out once instance of 'mind-affecting' in the whole passage about illusions. If he then reads the passage about Enchantments, he should - unless particularly dense, spot the difference between a school where all spells are mind-affecting and one who is not. Enchantment Enchantment spells affect the minds of others, influencing or controlling their behavior. All enchantments are mind-affecting spells. Two types of enchantment spells grant you influence over a subject creature. A Displacement bends light - it's no more mind-affecting than a mirror or a prism. You also might want to point him at the fact that mind-affecting is not anywhere in the descriptor of the spell displacement. Appearing on the same line as the school and subschool, when applicable, is a descriptor that further categorizes the spell in some way. Some spells have more than one descriptor. The descriptors are acid, air, chaotic, cold, darkness, death, earth, electricity, evil, fear, fire, force, good, language-dependent, lawful, light, mind-affecting, sonic, and water. As opposed to, for example Fear - which is a proper mind-affecting spell. It's easy to spot them - It says so right there in the descriptor.
Evil DM Mk3 05-20-06, 05:39 AM	It is not mind effecting, it affects your senses, not your mind. Indeed ask him to point out once instance of 'mind-affecting' in the whole passage about illusions. It is not even that. It is not altering the targets sence of sight, it is moving the immadge of you to a differant place. Their senses are unaffected but is still picking up wonky data. I agree that a spell that would make them halucinate that you where alsware might well be enchantment.
Dreamfeed 05-20-06, 01:16 PM	It is not even that. It is not altering the targets sence of sight, it is moving the immadge of you to a differant place. Their senses are unaffected but is still picking up wonky data. I agree that a spell that would make them halucinate that you where alsware might well be enchantment. Exactly. The thing is that this kind of illusion doesn't make a target believe you're somewhere else, it creates an image of you being somewhere else, which the target then sees. If it would make a target hallucinate, it would have another target in it's description- the creature seeing illusions, not the creature being displaced (besides all the things allready stated. Sean K. Reynolds posted a nice rant explaining why illusions arent mind-affecting here (http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/rants/invismindaffecting.html). Your DM is totally wrong.
Sphyre 05-20-06, 01:56 PM	Saving Throws and Illusions (Disbelief ): Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion. A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline. A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. A character faced with proof that an illusion isn’t real needs no saving throw. If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus. Displacement Illusion (Glamer) Level: Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 3 Components: V, M Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Touch Target: Creature touched Duration: 1 round/level (D) Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless) Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless) The subject of this spell appears to be about 2 feet away from its true location. The creature benefits from a 50% miss chance as if it had total concealment. However, unlike actual total concealment, displacement does not prevent enemies from targeting the creature normally. True seeing reveals its true location. Material Component: A small strip of leather twisted into a loop. Note, that you gain the benifits for the first attack against you, but then they can make a saving throw since they interacted with it (attacked you) to disbeleive. Such a saving throw only happens once, as you fail to notice something is amiss. A successful saving throw means that subject is no longer subject to it, but others still are until they interact, and stay subject to it if they fail. There's a little thing I houserule, or in a way interpret in a way that could be interpretted many ways. A character faced with proof that an illusion isn’t real needs no saving throw. If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus. Proof, is hard to come by. Being the one who cast it, might be one. Another way is identifying the spell as it's being cast, and that's proof, but is so easy to do, I houserule that spellcraft is simply not enough to constitute as proof. It's already a pretty weak school given the drawbacks of trueseeing countering EVERY spell of that school, and always getting a save against illusions upon inspection or interaction. There are feats such as Arcane Defense in Complete Arcane that increase your spell saves vs a school that you're specialized in that represents your innate knowledge of that school of magic and ability to defend against it. A simple spellcraft check isn't much to come by. In my games, even detect magic won't give you proof because you don't know what KIND of illusion it is, other than it's there. As such I give the bonus to the save... But how do you know whether that entire dragon is an illusion, or if it's just a giant lizard disguised by magic as a dragon? Anyway that's just my take on it. It isn't completely clear, and I think that's the fairest way to adjucate it. You may feel differently.
Father Dale 05-20-06, 04:34 PM	There is no saving throw to disbelieve displacement. The spell does not interact with the attacker, it interacts with the target of the spell (normally the caster). The saving throw entry for the spell is "Will negates (harmless)" meaning that it is considered a beneficial spell that the target could attempt to resist if he doesn't want the benefit. Simply attacking a character who is under an active displacement spell will not grant a Will save to disbelieve the displacement.
Dag 05-20-06, 05:53 PM	As for undead and elementals, have your DM look in the back of the Monster Manual (The Glossary) where they more thoroughly define the types of creatures. For undead it states on page 317: "Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects." As has been mentioned displacement is a glamer effect, so is therefore not mind affecting and will work versus undead (Whereas a hypnotic pattern will not - it's a pattern effect). Same thing applies to vermin - "Immune to mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns and morale effects). Elementals: It does not suggest in the elemental Type that they are immune to mind-affecting effects. (pg. 308). I think your DM's a hold over from 1st or 2nd edition. Took me a while to get a figure on these subtle differences, he should keep the book or a note on hand to remind him what gets through the immune to mind-affecting effects and what does not. Of all of those I believe that a creature with tremorsense would bypass the displacement, especially if the creature has no sight beyond tremorsense. A creature with tremorsense can "pinpoint the location of anything that is in contact with the ground." May still get the 50% miss chance, situational I suppose. Tought call.
Sphyre 05-20-06, 07:27 PM	There is no saving throw to disbelieve displacement. The spell does not interact with the attacker, it interacts with the target of the spell (normally the caster). The saving throw entry for the spell is "Will negates (harmless)" meaning that it is considered a beneficial spell that the target could attempt to resist if he doesn't want the benefit. Simply attacking a character who is under an active displacement spell will not grant a Will save to disbelieve the displacement. Hm. :thinks: That certainly makes sense to interpret the rules that way too. In fact I like that one too. It esspecially makes sense because of the spell Disguise Self spell actually says those who interact with the disguised person gets a save, while others don't say so. I'd be interested to hear how others interpret what constitutes "interacting" with an illusion. Obviously we can all kind of agree on a concensus that to "study it carefully" requires at least some amount of time, and unrushed (out of combat)
Father Dale 05-20-06, 08:56 PM	Well to follow up, if you give a saving throw to disbelieve a Displacement, then it would logically follow that you get one to disbelieve Invisbility too. Both are spells that affect the target, and both are Illusion (Glamer) spells. So if it works one way for one it should work the same way for the other. To further continue this, a creature who touches an Invisible creature would get either a +4 bonus to the save, or would simply automatically disbelieve (since it could be argued that it would be irrefutable proof that it is an illusion). I don't think anybody plays Invisibility that way.
dragonseth 05-20-06, 09:42 PM	Well to follow up, if you give a saving throw to disbelieve a Displacement, then it would logically follow that you get one to disbelieve Invisbility too. Both are spells that affect the target, and both are Illusion (Glamer) spells. So if it works one way for one it should work the same way for the other. To further continue this, a creature who touches an Invisible creature would get either a +4 bonus to the save, or would simply automatically disbelieve (since it could be argued that it would be irrefutable proof that it is an illusion). I don't think anybody plays Invisibility that way. And Father Dale for the win.
allenchan 05-21-06, 03:51 PM	And Father Dale for the win. :cheer:
CriminalTruth 05-22-06, 01:10 PM	And Father Dale for the win. LMFAO ... wait... he won D&D today... he should gain a lvl <3 .. take a lvl of like... EXPERT with the Knowledge skill " D&D " .. make sure u take max ranks :P
Sphyre 05-22-06, 05:07 PM	I don't think anybody plays Invisibility that way. As such, I notice that I don't play RAW, but rather RAI. We know what WotC was trying to imply when they wrote the rules, even if they aren't quite clear enough.
Father Dale 05-22-06, 06:22 PM	As such, I notice that I don't play RAW, but rather RAI. We know what WotC was trying to imply when they wrote the rules, even if they aren't quite clear enough. Thats certainly true. There are a lot of cases where you have to strip out what is being said to figure out what the intent was. Ebon Eyes from the Spell Compendium is a good example. So is Shivering Touch from Frostburn. But in the case of illusions, the Will save to disbelieve rules only come into play when the spell says "Will disbelief (if interacted with)." Thats the entry for Silent Image (which is the basis for all the other Image spells) as well as Project Image, Hallucinatory Terrain, and Illusory Wall. Point being that the RAW only grant the Will save to disbelieve when the saving throw entry says "Will disbelief." So theres not realy an issue of RAW vs RAI in this instance.