Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Psychicsoup 03-15-05, 11:39 PM	There's always plenty of disscussion on how to optimize your characters potential but one thing I see lacking on this board is how to optimize your groups potential. I'd like to start a thread with both beginning and veteran players in mind for group tactics. I'll start with one of the basics that beginners should remember. Bottlenecking- When coming into combat from a hallway and your group is outnumbered make sure to draw the enemy to you. Never stand at the edge of the hallway either. Two front line fighters at the edge of a 10ft wide hallway will take attacks from four enemies. Taking a step back will reduce enemy attacks to two per round instead of four. If this situation happens in a 5ft wide hallway your two frontline fighters should set their iniative to the same number and when the one in front attacks he then switches places with the one behind him giving the other fighter a chance to attack. Remember this tactic is best suited for low levels when fighting hoardes of goblinoids with melee weapons and no magic. Having your group all huddled together when the enemy has a mage with a fireball can disrupt your plans.
ehrin 03-15-05, 11:54 PM	When possible, try to fight at a T junction, with your party at the cross part of the T. THat way, you can get more attacks on fewer enemy (they can only get one or two in the long hall, you can line up three or four on the cross hall). Use reach weapons for a second melee row, especially clerics. they can stand behind the fighters with longspears, halberds, etc. Strike with 10' weapon, or heal without AoO the front line. Try not to line up in a straight row when fighting mages and clerics (lightning bolts, etc.). Avoid clumping in small, tight bunches too (fireballs). Try to keep at least 20 feet between your melee lines and mages, more if you can. Remember that it is often better to focus on killing one BBEG than spreading out and everyone attacking their own opponent. Knock out the leader, and you knock out the group often.
Draco Strang 03-16-05, 12:05 AM	I'll add to this: -Be sure to optimize weapons. By this I mean that you need to vary the composition of the firepower carried in the group. Everyone needs a primary weapon, and it wouldn't hurt to carry a backup. Vary the damage qualities, i.e. someone with slashing, someone with bludgeoning...etc. -Never underestimate the benefits of flanking. Not only do you get the +2 bonus to hit, but if a rogue's in the house, you're getting all of that sneak attack damage to boot. If a rogue can make a SA or two every round, that damage really starts to add up. -If you've got a monk, use him wisely. With the feat choices, the monk is either a hit and run type guy, who can strike everyone and then get out of range or he's the master tripper/grappler/disarmer. Use that to your advantage. The monk can't be touched, or he's throwing everyone all around the place. Your choice. This is good because he can be a troubleshooter, helping whoever needs assistance at the moment. -Shieldwalls. If you have two or three frontline fighters with shields, the formation feats in CW are pretty worthwhile. -A fighter can take on an enemy while a support character is hammering away with a polearm from behind. Also, if set to recieve a charge, there's double damage. - Work on one enemy at a time. If at all possible, surround the butthead and just ******** him into a bloody heap. There's no point in each person engaging in a battle that they can't win. Teamwork wins the day, and with lots of guys working on one enemy, he'll fall soon. - Area affect spells are your friend. If the wizard can get a clear shot off before the opposing sides close, you'll thin the numbers considerably. Yes, this all seems like common sense, but you'd be suprised at how erratic and haphazard I've seen players run combats.
weasel fierce 03-16-05, 12:45 AM	Here's one that many an adventuring party should have paid attention to: Know when to fall back. Have a plan ready for securing said falling back.
JadeSpider9643 03-16-05, 01:03 AM	Tips for low level partys: *The total defense action is your friend - you probably don't have lots of healing, and if you have a good enough AC, total defense makes you pratically untouchable * When fighting intelligent creatures, do everything you can to get yourself that wonderful surprise round. Got someone in the party that speaks goblin? Hear a room full of goblins around the corner? Shout something around the corner in goblin like "Free meat!" And when they come running around the corner, beat their nasty little skulls in. * Concentrate the whole group on one enemy at a time, the faster an enemy goes down, the sooner it stops killing you (uhh...usually) - this works espically well with lots of ranged attackers in the party and a large open area. Tips for mid to high level partys: *bah, you know what your doing by now....
Ze_Mighty_Vegetable 03-16-05, 01:27 AM	Use the environment. Lighting can be destroyed if you have darkvision. putting a table between you and half the foes save you from being surrounded. Barrels are your best friends. Etc... Always carry a distracion device/spell or 2 with you at all times. Eventualy, you,ll need to get away. A distraction can mean a head start (and save your life). Wether alchemist's fire, smoke bombs, glare-like spell, it'll save your life. Think before you charge.
ehrin 03-16-05, 10:39 AM	Magic should be as well chosen as weapons: Area of effect spells can do more damage to a tight group than 4 rounds of melee, for example. Spells that damage without saves are more powerful than those that do more, but only half the time (allow a save). I love soundburst, for example, because it does SOMETHING no matter what. Spells that buy you a round can mean a ton of damage in a melee: So what if you just daze your opponent for one round? if he is surrounded when you do, that's two or four free attacks, with no damage coming from him. That's free damage! Don't overlook ability draining damage: touch of fatigue, ray of enfeeblement, etc. are nice to have to even the odds a bit. Take advantage of buffing: bless spells really do help. THat +1 applies to everyone, and in a decent melee, that means a potential lot of damage. Can't hit? out of spells? Try to aid your melee line: most of us can hit AC 10, and that gives a buff to the real melee champs which can make a difference. 5 foot step: Almost always, take a 5 foot step (unless you are holding a tactical line position). Move a bit, help flank your opponent, give the guys in back some room, get out of line of your mages, slowly draw your enemy towards your position, prepare to run, etc.. Every step opens new tactics, and can keep the enemy from targeting you as easily. It costs nothing to move, so do it. A readied action is your friend.
psionichamster 03-16-05, 11:17 AM	many times, it is more effective for the casters to disable/weaken the opponents rather than toss of a direct damage spell. Stinking cloud, wave of fatigue, touch of fatigue, even daze or flare can all add up to more effective combat... be generous with magic and assistance; not everyone can deal the killing blow, but if you can make it easier, it's easier buffs are your best friend. bardic music, flanking, and aiding another can easily add up to +5 or 6 to ALL melee attacks ranged weapons are also your friend...a couple rounds of arrows/alchemicals/sling bullets can really soften up an opponent before tough melee starts bullrushes, trips, disarms, and the like can be used to set up enemies for the tougher melee types to finish off take prisoners...with a proviso...be careful when doing so. BUT, if you can safely take a prisoner or two, the intelligence you can glean from them can make the rest of your experiences quite easier lastly: make and use plans such as have been described BEFORE combat starts. our party has "attack pattern alpha" where the bard starts insp. courage, i haste the party, and the cleric casts blessed aim. that's +3, +1, +2 (ranged), or +6 to ranged and +4 to melee attacks, right from the start, as well as +3 damage, and the other benefits of haste we do this because, IG, we got our butts whipped a couple of times, and i sat them all down and explained things like spell range, increased reaction times, and the like. that's the most important tip, i think. use your characters to make these ideas known to the other PC's, not just player to player. then, when you call out "hit em high, i got low" in character, in combat, it makes it all the more fun namaste, the hamster
Psychicsoup 03-16-05, 07:31 PM	I call this one ally cover. This one requires a fighter with a tower shield and a good archer. Have both players set their initiative to the same number. The archer stands behind the fighter and the fighter uses the tower shield for total cover. Next round the fighter takes a 5ft step to the left or right then the archer fires at the enemy and takes a 5ft step behind the fighter. When the enemy gets close to charge range the fighter then sets a spear or halberd or whatever for the incoming charge. This can be countered by a simpled readied action though. If that happens the fighter uses the tower shield for it's normal +4 shield bonus and goes on total defense and doesn't move at all. Tha archer remains behind him firing at the enemy. The fighter sets to recieve charges as usual.
MarkB 03-16-05, 08:12 PM	Learn to use delay and readied actions - don't feel like you have to do something straightaway just because you've got first initiative. If you're a melee specialist but want the enemy to bring the fight to you, set yourself against a charge, or ready an action to counter-charge at minimum range. If you're a rogue and want to get your sneak attacks in, Delay until the fighter has moved up to attack, then move into flanking position. EDIT: And most importantly, talk to the other players - the only way you'll fight tactically as a party is by co-operating. Too often, a player will concentrate on his own tactical options without considering how to work with other characters for mutual benefit.
Shocker250 03-16-05, 08:30 PM	1. Meat shields in front... 2. Heavy ranged in middle 3. Caster, and low hp people in the back. When a fighter starts to get low, have him retreat to the back lines, and take out a bow, the rangers/clerics/bards who arnt necesarily in front can take care of the lines for enough time that the ffront line people can take a swig of a potion of a cleric heal. its kinda like a revolving door... but do keep this one thing in mind, just because the sorcerer has the most health among everybody, it doesnt mean that he should go in front... a fighter with 20 AC and 25 health is more usefull at front then a sorcerer with a 13 AC and 40 health. Sun Tzu says, "Know the Earth, Know the Heavens, Know the Enemy, And know yourself, only then will you know victory." He said something along those lines, its not ver-batum, but its close enough. Earth, know the terrain, E.X. close quarter hallways, trees for hiding, getting to the top of hills. Heaven, E.X. know the weather, know the light, know that luck is involved, know that some people may run and others wont ever run. Yourself, know ur party's strengths and weaknesses. E.X. If u know ur Meat shields have low A.C. it will be very much worth it for a Wizard to cast Mage armor and or shield on him. Know ur enemy... If your fighting elements, use opposing elements. Tremmorsense makes it hard to sneak up on a monster. Its hard to use this without meta-gaming.
allenchan 03-16-05, 08:34 PM	in the WLD we used a great tactic, I (a paladin tank) stood in a 5' hallway and used combat expertise, fighting defensively, etc, while the goliath stood behind me with a glaive and cut up the creatures that could only hit my AC on a nat 20.
Psychicsoup 03-17-05, 05:39 PM	To add to that you could have somone cast enlarge on the person behind the tank thus extending their ranged weapon 5ft. and getting attacking of oppurtunity from those who charge up.
Anthus_Longblade 03-17-05, 07:08 PM	To add to that you could have somone cast enlarge on the person behind the tank thus extending their ranged weapon 5ft. and getting attacking of oppurtunity from those who charge up. Wouldn't work too well in that five-foot corridor, though. ;)
UltimateReality 03-18-05, 12:59 AM	There's always plenty of disscussion on how to optimize your characters potential but one thing I see lacking on this board is how to optimize your groups potential. I'd like to start a thread with both beginning and veteran players in mind for group tactics.As I'm not a very tactically-inclined player, and I sometimes play characters who would be, I sat down with my DM and other players one night and made a "tactical cheat sheet" of questions to ask myself. I put it in my binder and found it invaluable -- especially once I started DMing. *** UR's Tactics Cheat Sheet (Quick Questions to Ask Yourself) Preparednessp 1. Can we set up an ambush? Can we be easily ambushed? 2. What formation is everyone in? 3. How many opponents are on each side? 4. How are combatants buffed, and by who? Would antimagic zones or a dispelling be good idea? Targetted or area, and where? Terrain 1. Who has cover and concealment? 2. Where are the hazards? 3. Who has higher ground? 4. How can terrain be altered with traps, alchemist's fire, and spells? How does it affect movement? 5. Who does the terrain favour? How can it be used for advantage by either side? Melee 1. Who’s easy/advantageous to flank? 2. Who has reach or reach weapons? 3. What size is everyone? 4. Who can trip or disarm? Mobility 1. Who can fly, swim, climb, jump, swarm? 2. Who can go incorporeal, ethereal, teleport, plane shift, or use contingency? 3. Is anyone invisible? Blinking, blurring, etc. or similar? 4. Who has the faster travel speed? 5. Can I use hit and run tactics effectively? Is it wise to retreat, or draw the enemy to a different position? Are they maneuvering us somewhere? Who’s In Charge 1. Is there a head guy hanging back, directing thing? Who’s in charge of us? 2. Who is the biggest threat? 3. Who are the spellcasters -- divine/arcane, spontaneous/prepared? What are they hitting with, and who? 4. Who can summon allies via spells or commands? Tactics 1. Are attackers spread out? 2.What tactics and combat style are being used? How are they easily countered? 3. Who's using bait to draw attacks? 4. What special abilities -- deities, alignments, classes, racials, creature type, spell specializations -- must be taken into account? 5. Is there a way to avoid this fight entirely? Finding Holes 1. What are their weaknesses? Ours? Who has resistances (DR, SR, energy), low saves, etc.? 2. Who's resistant to what? Who’s dealing what type of damage and effects? 3. What defensive positions are there? Where are the choke points?
Mirikon 03-18-05, 01:47 AM	Mirikon's Battle Tactics(tm) 1) Meatshields are called that for a reason. Put them in front. 2) Play to your strengths. Do not give the wizard a greatsword. Do give the Barbarian a Greataxe. 3) Divide and Conquer. Isolate individual enemies, and then bring them down, one at a time. Spells like Web, Wall of Fire, and Forcecage are made for just that purpose. 4) Use spells like fireball BEFORE the fighters are in melee with the mobs. Either that, or give them rings of Fire immunity. Crispy fighters are less likely to save your ass. 5) Spellcasters suck when they can't cast spells. You'd think this would be obvious, but its amazing how many groups forget this fact, and refrain from using the Silence spell, Greater Slumber, Hold Monster, etc. 6) Target your enemy's weaknesses. Fire against the White Dragon. Spells with Fort saves against the spellcasters. Spells with Will saves against the fighters. 7) Know when to run. Level 2 Wizard, down to 1 magic missile and 12 HP, vs. Ogre? Run like hell. 8) Ambushes are very effective. Use terrain to your advantage. If some schmuck is walking under two overhanging ledges, they deserve to get ambushed. 9) Take out the biggest threat first. Orc warriors are the least of your worries when there's an orc shaman around. Kill the spellcasters and heavy hitters first, and the encounter goes easier. 10) Be creative. There's a reason why people talk about the Prestigitation and Grease spell combo. Find new and interesting uses for spells. 11) Be cautious. Running into combat can be effective, but it can also get you killed. There are times when taking time to scout is far more important. 12) Be bold. Sometimes sheer hutzpah can get you through an otherwise excruciating encounter. 13) Be cunning. Tricks and traps are fun. Lure opponents into a trap to make things easier. 14) Keep it simple. Complex plans are nice, but they tend to break down in the first round of combat. 15) Adapt. No matter what your plan, or lack thereof, it is not foolproof. If things seem to be going differently than how you expected, you must adapt your strategy, or die.
Myst_the_Moonscout 03-18-05, 02:51 AM	As has been mentioned, know and use the environment. My party always makes efforts to ensure battles happen when and where we want them, even if it means retreating to a more favourable area upon sight of the bad guys. Things like keeping constant tabs on layout and where the best places would be to mount an attack or defence are good habits. For example: in a crowded dungeon use door spikes to ensure that reinforcements don't show up (in a long hallway with many doors, tie the knobs together with rope). Bottle-necking the enemy in a doorway rather than narrow hall works if they have a lot of ranged weapons. In our experience, front doors are nearly always a bad idea...ALWAYS DO A PERIMITER CHECK! you never know what you can pull off. In a battle with a clan of dwarves, one escaped into their fort and warned the others. Rather than attempt to go through the same door (as the previous party had) we went down a smokestack and surprised them from behind. (Using this same technique we were also able to circumvent a certain rope bridge in Forge of Fury).
Blairconz 03-18-05, 03:41 AM	Utilise everything at your disposal. I cannot stress this enough. If you have power attack or expertise, don't be afraid to use it. And don't worry about being unproficient, use nets. A wizard with good dex can net an ogre, making him mincemeat. And don't solve every problem with your sword, try talking people down with diplomacy or intimidate. Make sure what your fighting is indeed evil, good creatures of any capacity are handy things. And I gotta tell you, just because you're a sor/wiz, don't be afraid of getting into hand to hand. A sorceror with a spear has a good chance of killing a goblin or even an orc if he flanks.
Mirikon 03-18-05, 12:22 PM	And I gotta tell you, just because you're a sor/wiz, don't be afraid of getting into hand to hand. A sorceror with a spear has a good chance of killing a goblin or even an orc if he flanks. True. I played a Wizard/Dragon Disciple (the DM houseruled the entry requirements). Only cast spells when facing large groups. Claw/Claw/Bite was really quite effective, since she (was male, but died and was reincarnated female) had a higher Str than some of the fighters in the group.
Capt. Pixel 03-18-05, 01:09 PM	One tactic that always seems to be missed is falling back against foes with multiple melee attacks. Most foes with multiple attacks will be reduced to a single attack if they have to move to threaten you with an attack. If you stand in front of them - they get their full attack action. Take your attack and then fall back. If you can Tumble away - Great! give it a shot. If you have the Mobility Feat - your chances of being hit as you disengage are substantially reduced. Either way, you're probably going to take fewer hits from the foe than if you just stand there and take it. (I have pointed this out to my Players repeatedly, and they still seem to miss the point. :doh: )
gavalicks 03-18-05, 02:02 PM	Don't overlook unorthodox tactics, sometimes it better to take hits setting up a kill then to grind out kills through out a battle. Example: Setting up traps: use grease to make people fall, cast web to make things difficult for them to leave and then light a match. They will be burned for several rounds while they try to get up, and move out. Meanwhile you are launching arrows that have a chance to catch on fire which if hits dealing not only normal damage, but also additional fire damage. Trip and grapple are excellent uses for unorthodox method, have one person trip his opponent and then use his attack of opportunity when he gets up to trip him again he waste all his move actions trying to get up and can’t attack or make a 5’ step. Likewise if you have friends they can take two attacks of opportunity if they can have it. Don’t forget in a full round attack one of your attacks can be substituted for trips, disarms and sunder. Sunder and Disarm yes your opponent may have a +5 holy avengers sword of but kicking, but if he has to pick it up not only does he waste a move action, and can only make a standard attack but it also provokes an attack of opportunity in doing so. I have to agree surroundings if you are an archer in a tree at least 15 feet above your target you gain 20% concealment, and 50% if you are 25 feet above. This makes flying and high ground more important to those long distance fighters. Mud, sand, debris ect… blind your opponent they may be angry cause they have to waste a move action clearing their eyes which may provokes an attack of opportunity no body says we have to play fair and righteous that’s how us back stabbing thieves stay alive. Grapple is rouges best friend, not only does your opponent have no dex bonus but on a full rounds attack all attacks get sneak attack because he cannot defend himself after the first attack unlike a normal sneak attack which only works on the first attack (Dm may disagree depending on his/her interpretation of the results of grapple and sneak attack) Spellcaster please I am getting down on my knees we know you can burn down a small town by yourselves, but if you could grace us lowly fighters and rouges with spell buffs, or spells that will allow us the ability to sneak attack those immune to sneak attack we will be your best friends for life. (Complete Adventures has a whole bunch of these.)
psionichamster 03-18-05, 02:12 PM	cannot defend himself after the first attack unlike a normal sneak attack which only works on the first attack please note, this is not RAW...the "only SA on first iterative attack" is a houserule, not part of standard rules If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage. The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. note: emphasis mine also, No Dexterity Bonus You lose your Dexterity bonus to AC (if you have one) against opponents you aren’t grappling. (You can still use it against opponents you are grappling.) seems pretty cut and dry that you get all your SA damage from extra attacks on a grappling foe (whether by means of high BAB and iterative attacks, extra attacks from feats/spells/items, or other means) namaste, the hamster
Black Knight Geno 03-18-05, 02:32 PM	1) Flanking is almost ALWAYS better than charging 2) Never taunt a distant mage, chances are he can hurt you alot faster than you can hurt him. 3) Never, never, never insult a dragon, because you are crunchy and taste good with barbacue sauce. 4) Remember, a rogue/bard/sorcerer early is better than two fighters/clerics/paladins late. And last but certainly the most important... 5) Know your DM, and if he asks "Are you sure?", the correct answer is "NO!"
Psychicsoup 03-18-05, 05:17 PM	Grapple is rouges best friend, not only does your opponent have no dex bonus but on a full rounds attack all attacks get sneak attack because he cannot defend himself after the first attack unlike a normal sneak attack which only works on the first attack (Dm may disagree depending on his/her interpretation of the results of grapple and sneak attack) I'd like to add to that. Not only grapple is a rogues best friend but a monk is a rogues best friend. A when an opponent is stuned from the monks stunning attack they are denied their dex bonus as well. But with the right feats and spells things can get quite nasty. If your DM is running forgotten realms and using the races of faerun book get the feat Jotunbrud. It gives you the bonus +4 on all opposed checks as if you were large but you're not really large though. If you're not playing in the realms see if any large races are available to play. As soon as you can get this monk both improved grapple and stunning fist then weakening touch if your wisdom is a minimum of 17 that is. Hit the enemy with weakening touch reducing his str by 6. Then if someone casts a ray of enfeeblement that would be nice as well. A maximized ray of enfeeblement is even nicer. So now the bad guy is as helpless as a little baby and here comes the rogue to do his handy work. Ouch. If you got a large group you can stretch these abilities across the group. Have a strong fighter type be the grappler and the monk just does the stunning fist and weakening touch.
Psychicsoup 03-19-05, 05:12 AM	Remember that bull rushing an opponent through an ally's threatened square provokes an attack of oppurtunity.