Post/Author/DateTime	Post
zerotkatama 04-18-06, 07:21 PM	Hey. I've got an issue, well, I don't know if it's a valid one. I'm playing a healer cleric in a homebrew game, and everything's running fine. DM's good, party's good, we're off to liberate the free world from a giant-led slaving cartel... there IS one point of contention though. With the Divination spell, the Material component is incense and a sacrificial offering appropriate to your religion, togehter worth 25 gp. Now, my DM has said that I actually have to think up and buy said sacrifice. That's cool, I can see where he's coming from. Now, when I talk with him about possible appropriate sacrifices (I'm worshipping a God of Healing, Mercy, and Mysticism) I ask, since my character's got such a good Knowledge Religion check, could I maybe get some hints? No, not really. So we start playing Hot and Cold. Eventually, it seems to me, that any sacrifice I could make (Herbs, bandages, food, etc) the God would rather see used in the world. This was confirmed by my DM, at least for the herbs part. So now I'm stumped. Am I overthinking the situation, am I in the right, partially, or do I need to get off my duff and think more?
TheChilliGod 04-18-06, 08:26 PM	It's hard to come up with a sacrifice appropriate to your religion, if your religion opposes the wasteful destruction of plants and animals. So, try something inorganic, like a piece of woodwork depicting your deity's holy symbol, a gem reflecting the colors of your deity, or something like that. Personally, I think your DM's being a bit too tough on you about this. He should have, at the very least, allowed a Knowledge (Religion) check to have your character know what a suitable sacrifice would be, considering that, if your check is so high, you should know at least a bit about how you conduct rituals to your own bloody deity. If the DM keeps on rejecting stuff, then try to find out why. Casting a spell like Divination shouldn't really be this complicated.
blackjackg 04-18-06, 09:52 PM	If I were the DM, I'd allow you to know automatically, without even the religion check. Clerics know how to do clericly duties, it's part of their training. But I'm not the DM, he is. An appropriate sacrifice to a good, utilitarian deity like the one you've presented would be a piece of art. Of no practical value, but with a definite gp value. Burning a woodwork statue would probably be fine. Alternatively, salt or some other spice might work, burning or dissolving it. It's rare, expensive, but of little real use to the world.
PhantomTrain 04-19-06, 12:47 PM	It sounds to me like your DM has misunderstood the purpose of the Divination spell. It sounds like he is afraid that Divination=absolute knowledge of the future. He's probably worried about giving you too much information, possibly because he himself doesn't know how things will go with the game. You should find out if that's why he's hampering your efforts to cast the spell, and, if it is, sit with him and go over exactly what the spell can and can't do. You may want to point out that Divination is a great way to get characters headed toward plot points, not around them. Also, it must be said, if you worship any god that has a church structure around it and you posess knowledge Religion, it is fair to assume that you know how these rituals are conducted. Remember, in D&D, magic (even divine magic) tends to function in a formulaic way. It's not like you're inventing a new spell.
Nate Jones 04-20-06, 01:15 AM	If you worship a god of healing and mercy, maybe you could sacrifice a part of your own health. Perhaps a small amount of blood to show you are willing to take upon yourself the suffering of others.
Cantankerous 04-20-06, 01:51 AM	Actually I'd say your DM is being purposely obstructionist. It can certainly be taken for granted that a priest will know what is and isn't acceptable to his deity, AUTOMATICLY regarding sacrafices. He IS a bloody Priest after all. At the absolute MOST, this should bea DC*5 Know-Religion check; but it's doubtful that even this would be appropriate. This SHOULD BE automatic knowledge for a Priest of a god. Isshia
kelvinaw273 04-20-06, 07:27 AM	While I agree with most of the comments above, I will stick up for the DM in one sense ... Divination is one of the HARDEST types of spell to have a player cast. It can reveal hidden plots and foils and requires, in effect, for the DM to predict the future. It is very, very hard to run as a DM, and I don't blame him for making you work as hard as he is going to have to if you cast that spell.
Cantankerous 04-20-06, 08:48 AM	Especially with Divination, if the DM uses the spell as it is written, it's far from a problem. A short phrase that hints at what might be a good reaction to a specific event, goal or activity. Cryptic rhymes or omens means that the Players really get nothing concrete. Finally, the maximum period of time is a week. Sure, it's powerful...it bloody better be, 4th level spell, meaning that only the most exceptional types are going to be doing this in the first place. When the game rules are actually used, it's far from too much. Isshia
Carpe Diem 04-20-06, 02:03 PM	If you are thinking of what would be a suitable sacrifice, then you are metagaming. You are not supposed to think outside of your character and it sounds like you are doing just that. This means that you will not be able to come up with a sacrifice and play in character unless you're DM stops being belligerent. First, I would imagine that you would already know what kind of a component you need because you are a Cleric and being a priest of your deity is a profession. If your character doesn't know what your deity expects, heshould lose all his class features and seek atonement immediately. This is an expectation of worshipping a God and knowledge pertaining to your 1st level as a Cleric. If your character doesn't know what your deity expects, he should be a Cleric. Second, if your DM wants to continue this masquerade, then you should be able to make a skill check to figure out what you need. The DC for a Knowledge (religion) check should be immensely low and it must be possible for any first level character to accomplish. Another option is a Gather Information check in any urban environment containing a church dedicated to your deity or a library with knowledge written about your deity. Third, find a new DM. He seems to be intentionally keeping you from what your character would know and I'm not sure if he even knows what kind of a sacrifice he expects. I would be on the verge of quitting his campaign already. So it's not your fault you don't know, your character is already supposed to know. Your DM is supporting out of character knowledge and taking away from the role-play experience. It's good that he actually wants a sacrifice, but he has to throw some ideas at you - especially if you do a Knowledge (religion) check.
Evil DM Mk3 04-21-06, 04:17 AM	Here is an idea, what if the sacrifice is somthing the deiaty does not want to see in the world. Like spoiled food. Think about it by removing the spoiled food from the world you are helping the caus of the God. OK so it is weak, as your DM I would have said "Hmm, Healing, Mercy, and Mysticism, hmm (or rather would aviod this because I would KNOW). Ok, two of incence made from rare herbs, a set of broken shackles and an expired but intricate magic wand. That is 25gp." Nothing wrong with insisting that these things be bought early, after all you cant buy stuff in hte middle of a wood, but "guess the component" is a dumb game.
High Octane 04-21-06, 09:38 AM	Your DM sucks on this part. I cant say what hes like otherwise, but this sucks. No other way of putting it. Sacrifice a moment of prayer.
DrMorganes 04-21-06, 10:52 AM	While I agree with most of the comments above, I will stick up for the DM in one sense ... Divination is one of the HARDEST types of spell to have a player cast. It can reveal hidden plots and foils and requires, in effect, for the DM to predict the future. It is very, very hard to run as a DM, and I don't blame him for making you work as hard as he is going to have to if you cast that spell. Divinations are far from game breaking. They require the DM to apply a bit of foresight and to take them into consideration when planning his adventure, sure, but "reveal hidden plots and foils"? Only if the DM lets them. More appropriately, the DM takes the availability of such magic into account and uses it to help drive the plot rather than reveal it early. Ferinstance: In Tad Williams' excellent trilogy Sorrow, Memory, and Thorn, characters can make use of an Otherworld (which I envision as sort of like the Astral Plane in D&D terms) while using the more powerful divinations. Early on in the first book the heroes suffer a major loss: the murder of the main character's mentor, who is a wizard of no mean skill. The main character has a minor connection with the Otherworld and occasionally has a cryptic dream of his mentor, who always says the same thing: Beware the false messenger! The heroes spend the entire story on guard for a messenger - an actual living, breathing person - who will bring them false information or betray them. Only in the last part of the final book do they (and the reader) discover that the "false messenger" is actually the ancient prophetic text the heroes been following all along! The entire prophesy is "false"; when "three swords . . . come again", the ancient evil they've been fighting will NOT be defeated. Rather, the Storm King will use the power of these artifacts to actually turn back time and return to the world! Obviously not all divinations should be such major plot twists, but the example serves to illustrate the point well. Divinations are short-lived and cryptic (rather like forecasting the weather in Michigan :rofl: ). They are a means to acquire clues to help the players uncover what is hidden. They do not in and of themselves directly reveal anything. And as far as the "DM must predict the future" bit, if the DM can't predict the future of his own game... :shocked:
StormKnight 04-21-06, 12:26 PM	Good grief. One of the most basic parts of learning a spell should be HOW TO CAST IT, which would include what items to use. Sheer idiocy on the DMs part. My initial thought for a good "sacrifice" for a divination offering from a healing/good type diety would be a bit of parchment on which you write a sincere appeal to the diety for the information you want. The diety wants to know you are thinking of her and taking the powers she grants you seriously.
ToxicWiz 04-21-06, 04:01 PM	it's not your fault you don't know, your character is already supposed to know. That's it. Nailed it. No question. period. and now for my questionable opinion. if It is a god of healing ect, wouldn't it like to keep life alive? sacrifice of living (from a flower to a child) would be wrong I would have thought. and I'm sorry but I have no idea what a deity of that type would want. my two copper.
mlund 04-21-06, 06:14 PM	Game hassels with the power of Divination should be a tangent issue. A Cleric PC knows what an acceptable sacrifice is to his or her deity in accordance with the religion. The PC and DM working together could definitely reach a conclusion as to what an appropriate sacrifice would be - thusly adding depth to the world and the RP. On the topic of what's an appropriate sacrifice for a god of Healing, Mercy, and Mysticism, however, I'd suggest a personal sacrifice. I know when we think of material components, we think of things that turn to ash or burn - but an offering of acts or charity tend to be the sorts of sacrifices offered up for real-world religions with similar values - rather than burnt offerings. Perhaps a 25gp value investment into one of your deity's corporal works of mercy would fit the bill here? - Marty Lund
celtredleg 04-21-06, 08:58 PM	Is your DM always like this, or is this an isolated issue?? It may well be time to shop around if he thinks this is a good way to do things. If he is just freaked about divination, talk through the spell with him and show him that is not game breaking. One of the odder DM mess-ups I have heard. A cleric that doesnt know his own rituals. Next he will not know who he worships, or what spells are on hisd list.
Mandarbgrim 04-21-06, 10:27 PM	Just a thought... It is a 4th level spell. Depending upon the campaign that may make few clerics of his order actually able to cast this spell. If that is so, then he might not know what the appropriate sacrifice is to cast the spell from a roleplaying perspective. With this I am assuming the sacrifice for the spell is different than the common sacrifices made during common rituals. One could also argue that there wouldn't be much if any difference. That is about the only point I can think of to justify your DM's requirement, and it is rather weak in that regard. Goodluck.
High Octane 04-28-06, 10:53 PM	What I always found that pisses me off is that this tends to be a double standard. Metagaming is considered a crime, when your character knows something he shouldnt because the player does. Is it not also possible that the character will know things that the PLAYER wont? I dare say they might! Say a player does not know how to pick a lock and plays a rogue. Will the DM be expecting the player to pick out the proper tools? Will he ask a kid who plays a fighter what fighter stance the fighter would take in X situation? Is the player expected to be able to read elvish and Celestial if his character does? How is this any different? I have often said to my DM when he asked me a fairly obscure question I dont know the answer to about my character I often respond "I dont know, but my character would."
Archmage_Vall 04-28-06, 11:44 PM	Yeah, play a Loremaster in a rp-heavy campaign with lots of history built into the homebrew setting. I found myself saying, "Do I know anything about ___? (rolls knowledge check)," a lot.
Mist of Shadows 04-29-06, 12:18 AM	I would suggest asking if making a sacrifice means that it goes poof or if you can sacrifice food by giving it away to the needy. Maybe part of the problem is the dm doesn't know what he wants either. Try asking him what type would be approperite I mean you are a priest after all you spent your younger years listening to stories about the god/goddess.