Diviner/Rogue: Melee or Missile? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Diviner/Rogue: Melee or Missile? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
uiop
02-17-06, 11:49 AM I'm thinking about playing an elf Diviner (necromancy prohibited)/Rogue multiclass going into arcane trickster, im not sure though if i should play the character as a melee or missile role in combat. I'm playing the character mostly for his skills outside combat but it would be good to be useful.

combining the true strike spell with the sneak attacks means i could do melee reasonably well... If i could survive long enough. On the other hand missile feats would work well with any rays i cast as well as a bow, with less risk of being hit but with much less chance of sneak attacking.

What feats & equipment should i get? Is going 2 weapon fighting worth it for the defense feat? I will be starting from 1st level if it helps. Also I will only be using stuff from the core 3 books.

Thanks
Sikyanakotik
02-17-06, 03:07 PM Dude, you're getting an average 3 + Con hit points per level. Any attempt to melee will likely result in your character assuming the consistency of ground hamburger. Plus it's best not to have to cast everything defensively. Use the bow! If you're worried about sneak attacks, there are spells like Colour Spray, Invisibility, and Hold Person that can let you make them without flanking.
phelanarcetus
02-17-06, 03:35 PM I suggest sticking to ranged as well. You won't get quite as many attacks that qualify for Sneak Attack in the long run (though early on, Rapid Shot is at least as good as Two-Weapon Fighting), but you'll be much safer, in much better position to act.

If your worry is less chances to use the Sneak Attack, consider both spells and items to get the capability. You won't be flanking the enemy, but instead you'll be finding ways to deny him his Dex bonus to AC against you. For example, at higher levels, Evard's Black Tentacles is spectacular for this effect. Or making yourself invisible, successfully hiding...

Being in melee is not desireable for an unarmored character with low hp. In fact, it's a very good way to become an ex-character. Stand back with a bow, and you'll be a good deal safer. And if you pick your spells well, no less effective. If it's immune to Sneak Attacks, or you don't have the spells available to give yourself the opportunity, back off further to be even safer.
Feor
02-17-06, 05:01 PM I'll agree with the bow assessment. Plus:

True Strike applies to any attack roll, so your bow counts.
Melee = death! trust me, I have a sorc specializing in melee, and most of the time my party is frantically trying to stabilize me :P
Being a diviner means you specialize in spells that see things. A little reseach into a new spell and you could take "leading your target" to all new heights. :)
ezreal2001
02-18-06, 03:55 AM I'm thinking about playing an elf Diviner (necromancy prohibited)/Rogue multiclass going into arcane trickster, im not sure though if i should play the character as a melee or missile role in combat. I'm playing the character mostly for his skills outside combat but it would be good to be useful.

combining the true strike spell with the sneak attacks means i could do melee reasonably well... If i could survive long enough. On the other hand missile feats would work well with any rays i cast as well as a bow, with less risk of being hit but with much less chance of sneak attacking.

What feats & equipment should i get? Is going 2 weapon fighting worth it for the defense feat? I will be starting from 1st level if it helps. Also I will only be using stuff from the core 3 books.

Thanks
Hmmm Elf Diviner (necromancy prohibited)/Rogue multiclass going into arcane trickster - good choice. BTW Would that be a Grey Elf?

I prefer missile attacks my self. Sure you don't get to flank with a bow, but you SA targets that that are flat footed or stuned or can't see your PC because the're blind or your PC is invisible.

Your Wizard ablities help out here - sadly you'll have to wait for the Improved Invis/Haste/Fly(or better yet with some kind of flying mount)/See Invis combo of cheesy goodness. But you'll have lots of ways to prep your victims take so time to go through your spells to work out how to imobilise or otherwise discombobulate your victims.

Do you have access to the Spell compedium? Check out Snipers Shot - ranged SA's to the range of the weapon _not_ 30 feet and its a Swift 1st level Divination. Take some time with your DM work out which SC spells you can use.

And yes Wind Wall and Reservse Arrow can be a problem - but your fist challenge is to negate them
uiop
02-19-06, 08:44 AM Thanks for that guys, I think i agree that the risk in combat isnt worth it, i just wondered if there was some way i could get in some flanking attacks.

What feats would you recommend i take? I was thinking precise shot as soon as possible so if 2 other people get someone flanked i can sneak attack the victim. Other than that i have no idea. Only Feats from the players handbook by the way.

Also we will be rolling stats, in what order should i assign my scores? I was thinking dex 1st, int 2nd, con 3rd, str 4th, cha 5th & wis 6th in that order of importance.

cheers guys
uiop
02-26-06, 01:57 PM :bump:

Still need advice on the order of stats & feats :/ Any advise would be gratefully accepted
Ashok_Lal
02-27-06, 12:35 AM As a rogue all stats are important as a wizard int is all important it also gives you your skill points so i would put it first
1st int

dex is going to be important it allows you to pick locs gives AC. hit with a bow
2nd dx

Con helps with hp and concentration skill both very important a good con can double your hp per level with this type of build
3rd con

cha is realy good score for a rogue as not many classes have comunication skills so often the rogue has to fill that niche aswell
4th cha

wis helps with spot search type skills also another skill set not many other classes have
5th wis

str is handy for hiting hard and often but since you are a spell caster/archer its not so important. It helps with climb and jump which is important
6th str

Any time you take rogue, monk, or such classes all your stats become important and its hard to choose the most impotant stat. Some people are not gong agree with my way and this does not mean thay are wrong becouse the rogue is the most versatile class ever.
Dag
02-27-06, 10:39 AM I agree with Ashok on the order of your abilities. Int before Dex (Playing an elf you'll get a dex boost anyways - but so will halflings, see below) And as an elf you'll take a hit to your con, so it should be third, not to mention your fort. saves will suffer considering the two classes you are taking. So your HP and Fort are going to be pretty lousy even if you do put your 3rd best stat in constitution.

I'd make this character a halfling instead of an elf if I were you. There's the first reason (the constitution), and just because halflings make better rogues and equally effective wizards: +1 racial bonus to hit, the racial/size bonuses to hide and move silently, and the racial bonus to saving throw. And if you go for sling over short bow you'll get another +1 to attack rolls.

I know halflings aren't as glorious as elves, but if I were making this character I would go halfling before I even considered making him an elf. Of course it's just a suggestion, for all I know there's some wacked out elven subrace that grants a bonus to Intelligence and dexterity while subtracting from charisma. If you want an elven type character - aloof, arrogant, and superior, then still make your character a halfling and play him that way.

As an amusing aside, I just created a halfling diviner last night for a newly starting campaign. I was juggling the ideas of a halfling diviner and adding rogue levels, or elven diviner and dipping into monk levels. I went halfling because I decided to go rogue and I reccomend you at least look into it.
Dag
02-27-06, 10:46 AM In my fury to champion the halfling cause concerning your character I forgot to agree with you on the feat selection. Certainly go after precise shot as soon as you can get it,a some one else had mentioned it will be helpful dealing with those ranged touch spells such as rays...Of course barring necromancy keeps you from two pretty good ray spells: Enfeeblement and fatigue and also keeps you away from spiritual hand, but I still agree with that selection. I'm not familiar with any of these new-fangled arcane books but I'm sure they have Ray of Cheese or other type ray spells that will allow you to utilize your dex and good ranged attacks with your spells.
Morka
02-27-06, 10:55 AM I agree with range attacks. The only cool thing with a melee Arcane Trickster is to sneak attack with a touch spell; but since most of those spells are from the Necromancy school and that school is your forbidden one, then you loose your only bonus for melee.

If you're starting 1st level, I suggest you to take the 3 rogue levels, and then multiclass into a wizard. Use the feats Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot, since both apply to range touch spells too. Perhaps Rapid Shot too, but it won't apply to your range touch spells. Perhaps Dodge too if you want a bonus to AC, or Weapon Finesse if you want some melee back-up. Then Combat Casting, and perhaps any Metamagic feat you like.

For the spells, I suggest you True Strike, Grease (make your foes flat-footed), Mage Armor and/or Shield, Reduce Person (bonus to hide, AC and Attack Roll). I'm not sure if Fog, Obscuring Mist or Darkness would allow you to hide and make sneak attack.

For the equipment, start with a good bow and a back-up melee weapon. As long as your only class is rogue, you could use a light armor, but as soon as you have arcane spells, it will give you some troubles.
Mogofeiden
02-27-06, 11:04 AM try improved feint + touch spell (don't forget to take your 5ft-step), to sneak attack without hiding or flanking, keep cantrips in mind for this.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
uiop 02-17-06, 11:49 AM	I'm thinking about playing an elf Diviner (necromancy prohibited)/Rogue multiclass going into arcane trickster, im not sure though if i should play the character as a melee or missile role in combat. I'm playing the character mostly for his skills outside combat but it would be good to be useful. combining the true strike spell with the sneak attacks means i could do melee reasonably well... If i could survive long enough. On the other hand missile feats would work well with any rays i cast as well as a bow, with less risk of being hit but with much less chance of sneak attacking. What feats & equipment should i get? Is going 2 weapon fighting worth it for the defense feat? I will be starting from 1st level if it helps. Also I will only be using stuff from the core 3 books. Thanks
Sikyanakotik 02-17-06, 03:07 PM	Dude, you're getting an average 3 + Con hit points per level. Any attempt to melee will likely result in your character assuming the consistency of ground hamburger. Plus it's best not to have to cast everything defensively. Use the bow! If you're worried about sneak attacks, there are spells like Colour Spray, Invisibility, and Hold Person that can let you make them without flanking.
phelanarcetus 02-17-06, 03:35 PM	I suggest sticking to ranged as well. You won't get quite as many attacks that qualify for Sneak Attack in the long run (though early on, Rapid Shot is at least as good as Two-Weapon Fighting), but you'll be much safer, in much better position to act. If your worry is less chances to use the Sneak Attack, consider both spells and items to get the capability. You won't be flanking the enemy, but instead you'll be finding ways to deny him his Dex bonus to AC against you. For example, at higher levels, Evard's Black Tentacles is spectacular for this effect. Or making yourself invisible, successfully hiding... Being in melee is not desireable for an unarmored character with low hp. In fact, it's a very good way to become an ex-character. Stand back with a bow, and you'll be a good deal safer. And if you pick your spells well, no less effective. If it's immune to Sneak Attacks, or you don't have the spells available to give yourself the opportunity, back off further to be even safer.
Feor 02-17-06, 05:01 PM	I'll agree with the bow assessment. Plus: True Strike applies to any attack roll, so your bow counts. Melee = death! trust me, I have a sorc specializing in melee, and most of the time my party is frantically trying to stabilize me :P Being a diviner means you specialize in spells that see things. A little reseach into a new spell and you could take "leading your target" to all new heights. :)
ezreal2001 02-18-06, 03:55 AM	I'm thinking about playing an elf Diviner (necromancy prohibited)/Rogue multiclass going into arcane trickster, im not sure though if i should play the character as a melee or missile role in combat. I'm playing the character mostly for his skills outside combat but it would be good to be useful. combining the true strike spell with the sneak attacks means i could do melee reasonably well... If i could survive long enough. On the other hand missile feats would work well with any rays i cast as well as a bow, with less risk of being hit but with much less chance of sneak attacking. What feats & equipment should i get? Is going 2 weapon fighting worth it for the defense feat? I will be starting from 1st level if it helps. Also I will only be using stuff from the core 3 books. Thanks Hmmm Elf Diviner (necromancy prohibited)/Rogue multiclass going into arcane trickster - good choice. BTW Would that be a Grey Elf? I prefer missile attacks my self. Sure you don't get to flank with a bow, but you SA targets that that are flat footed or stuned or can't see your PC because the're blind or your PC is invisible. Your Wizard ablities help out here - sadly you'll have to wait for the Improved Invis/Haste/Fly(or better yet with some kind of flying mount)/See Invis combo of cheesy goodness. But you'll have lots of ways to prep your victims take so time to go through your spells to work out how to imobilise or otherwise discombobulate your victims. Do you have access to the Spell compedium? Check out Snipers Shot - ranged SA's to the range of the weapon _not_ 30 feet and its a Swift 1st level Divination. Take some time with your DM work out which SC spells you can use. And yes Wind Wall and Reservse Arrow can be a problem - but your fist challenge is to negate them
uiop 02-19-06, 08:44 AM	Thanks for that guys, I think i agree that the risk in combat isnt worth it, i just wondered if there was some way i could get in some flanking attacks. What feats would you recommend i take? I was thinking precise shot as soon as possible so if 2 other people get someone flanked i can sneak attack the victim. Other than that i have no idea. Only Feats from the players handbook by the way. Also we will be rolling stats, in what order should i assign my scores? I was thinking dex 1st, int 2nd, con 3rd, str 4th, cha 5th & wis 6th in that order of importance. cheers guys
uiop 02-26-06, 01:57 PM	:bump: Still need advice on the order of stats & feats :/ Any advise would be gratefully accepted
Ashok_Lal 02-27-06, 12:35 AM	As a rogue all stats are important as a wizard int is all important it also gives you your skill points so i would put it first 1st int dex is going to be important it allows you to pick locs gives AC. hit with a bow 2nd dx Con helps with hp and concentration skill both very important a good con can double your hp per level with this type of build 3rd con cha is realy good score for a rogue as not many classes have comunication skills so often the rogue has to fill that niche aswell 4th cha wis helps with spot search type skills also another skill set not many other classes have 5th wis str is handy for hiting hard and often but since you are a spell caster/archer its not so important. It helps with climb and jump which is important 6th str Any time you take rogue, monk, or such classes all your stats become important and its hard to choose the most impotant stat. Some people are not gong agree with my way and this does not mean thay are wrong becouse the rogue is the most versatile class ever.
Dag 02-27-06, 10:39 AM	I agree with Ashok on the order of your abilities. Int before Dex (Playing an elf you'll get a dex boost anyways - but so will halflings, see below) And as an elf you'll take a hit to your con, so it should be third, not to mention your fort. saves will suffer considering the two classes you are taking. So your HP and Fort are going to be pretty lousy even if you do put your 3rd best stat in constitution. I'd make this character a halfling instead of an elf if I were you. There's the first reason (the constitution), and just because halflings make better rogues and equally effective wizards: +1 racial bonus to hit, the racial/size bonuses to hide and move silently, and the racial bonus to saving throw. And if you go for sling over short bow you'll get another +1 to attack rolls. I know halflings aren't as glorious as elves, but if I were making this character I would go halfling before I even considered making him an elf. Of course it's just a suggestion, for all I know there's some wacked out elven subrace that grants a bonus to Intelligence and dexterity while subtracting from charisma. If you want an elven type character - aloof, arrogant, and superior, then still make your character a halfling and play him that way. As an amusing aside, I just created a halfling diviner last night for a newly starting campaign. I was juggling the ideas of a halfling diviner and adding rogue levels, or elven diviner and dipping into monk levels. I went halfling because I decided to go rogue and I reccomend you at least look into it.
Dag 02-27-06, 10:46 AM	In my fury to champion the halfling cause concerning your character I forgot to agree with you on the feat selection. Certainly go after precise shot as soon as you can get it,a some one else had mentioned it will be helpful dealing with those ranged touch spells such as rays...Of course barring necromancy keeps you from two pretty good ray spells: Enfeeblement and fatigue and also keeps you away from spiritual hand, but I still agree with that selection. I'm not familiar with any of these new-fangled arcane books but I'm sure they have Ray of Cheese or other type ray spells that will allow you to utilize your dex and good ranged attacks with your spells.
Morka 02-27-06, 10:55 AM	I agree with range attacks. The only cool thing with a melee Arcane Trickster is to sneak attack with a touch spell; but since most of those spells are from the Necromancy school and that school is your forbidden one, then you loose your only bonus for melee. If you're starting 1st level, I suggest you to take the 3 rogue levels, and then multiclass into a wizard. Use the feats Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot, since both apply to range touch spells too. Perhaps Rapid Shot too, but it won't apply to your range touch spells. Perhaps Dodge too if you want a bonus to AC, or Weapon Finesse if you want some melee back-up. Then Combat Casting, and perhaps any Metamagic feat you like. For the spells, I suggest you True Strike, Grease (make your foes flat-footed), Mage Armor and/or Shield, Reduce Person (bonus to hide, AC and Attack Roll). I'm not sure if Fog, Obscuring Mist or Darkness would allow you to hide and make sneak attack. For the equipment, start with a good bow and a back-up melee weapon. As long as your only class is rogue, you could use a light armor, but as soon as you have arcane spells, it will give you some troubles.
Mogofeiden 02-27-06, 11:04 AM	try improved feint + touch spell (don't forget to take your 5ft-step), to sneak attack without hiding or flanking, keep cantrips in mind for this.