Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tomi Shadows 01-26-07, 04:52 PM	Yeah, so I'm playing in a campaign currently with a group of people that I've played with for quite a while. We just recently started this new campaign (the party is currently at level 2), and we went into this underground dungeon type thing. I am playing a half-elf bard. When the party and DM found out (don't ask me why the DM didn't notice when I first showed him the character), they laughed and have been treating my character as :censored:, DM included. So we are walking down a corridor, and the party ******* (psionic something, I believe) decides to push me ahead of us when I detected some magic. I got caught in an invisible, magical spider web. So I did what the good bard would do, try everything in his ginormous repituare. I tried cutting the web with my dagger; "You can't see the web because its invisible, so you can't cut it. Plus its magical!!" I tried burning the web; its not flamable. I tried Escape Artist; the DC was over 40. By now the huge spider has swung one of its legs at the party barbarian, who takes like 8 damage. Big woop, he's perfectly fine. So the party decides to run away out of the corridor, leaving me because I'm "the most useless character you can play". Now the big spider comes down into my vision. Its starts speaking in a hiss like fashion, and apparently it contained some dwarven, so I understood the words "blood", "flesh", and "tasty". I try to Fascinate it, but I guess giant spiders have Will saves of +15. After the fact, I found out that the spider casted the invisible web spell, and has been concentrating the whole time to keep me stuck (while doing everything else, mind you). Then, before I could do anything else, it wraps me in regular web from the waist down, which is still caught in the invisible web. This is were we left off, while the rest of the party has gone on to another battle. Do any of you have any ideas of how I could get out of this situation without making it easy for the DM to screw me over? Please don't suggest "leave the group", there are no other groups for me to play with. Thank you for reading all of this, and thanks for any suggestions you can come up with (Level 2 Half-Elf Bard, keep in mind)
KirkBb 01-26-07, 05:05 PM	Simple, tell the Dm you will be switching characters, but reserve the right to go back playing this one at some point in the future. Then give him pun-pun, the most powerful character ever created. While you are killing off all of the gods in the campaign world, ask the party if they think this much power is a good thing, after you have pretty much annihalted the this jerky DMs campaign, possibly breaking his black heart, switch back to your bard. Then see if anyone tells you that you need to be more powerful.
Crimson_Concerto 01-26-07, 05:05 PM	Wow, assuming that's the entire story, your DM and party suck. Tell them that they're being *******s, and explain how you feel about their uncalled for behavior. Also, if the web only has invisibility cast on it, it wasn't magical and could very well be cut even if you couldn't see it. Invisibility doesn't really give the web any sort of real benifits after you know where it is. However, the DM apparently doesn't know how invisibility works, because you don't have to concentrate on the spell. It lasts for a certain duration regardless. Either that or he was just making stuff up because he wanted you to die. However, either way, the rest of your party is made up of *******s. Not one of them said "Hey, maybe we should at least try to save him before we run?" I'm sorry, but even if there are no other groups in the area, I'd rather play online or over AIM or something than play with them.
SokenzanMarauder 01-26-07, 05:12 PM	Step 1: Hit them all in the face with a folding chair Step 2: Call them all Steve and tell them to quit being douches Step 3: Leave and never play with them again Step 4: Profit :dancin: -Gene
Aryxbez 01-26-07, 05:19 PM	Tell the DM of the inaccuracies he has made. such as the web spell and such. Also tell him you feel that you are purposely being screwed over since I am guessing you have about a +10 to your perform check and on average should be a DC 20 Also I would probably just make another character, since most likely this was an encounter made for the team to defeat Also whenever the team needs your aid, just don't help them kill their characters in their sleep or something. I personally hate to do something like that, but hey if they don't want to act as your teamate, why should you?
Platstud 01-26-07, 05:19 PM	I generally echo the above sentiments, and would suggest that there is absolutely no way out of the situation. I could suggest a thousand solutions and it wouldn't matter one bit, because the DM clearly doesn't want you to succeed here. If the DM wants your character to die, you're gonna die. Simple as that. All you can do is talk to your group and try to work things out.
TheChilliGod 01-26-07, 05:23 PM	Why is it always the bards that get the party flak? I've seen this happen before. More than once. It seems that the less mature groups can't bear to wrap themselves around such a concept as a guy that sings or plays an instrument and expects himself to be useful. True enough, many people thought, before fighters got hit, that bards were the most useless class, because they aren't good enough arcane casters to be wizards, not good enough skill-monkeys as rogues, and their bardic music is generally non-contributive. Also, before half-orcs had it, half-elves were thought the worst race because of their skill bonuses not comparable to an elf's, and their flexibility to languages & class not comparable to a human's flexibility to feats & skills. With that regard, no surprise the half-elf bard was thought the weakest of all race/class combinations. IIRC. So it's no wonder that everybody's giving your bard crap. All you have to do to fix that, however, is to find something that your character's good at. No doubt that bard's diplomacy modifier is through the roof (if it isn't, shame on you), so you could theoretically use diplomacy to stop the spider from eating you, and get it to eat the "much tastier" other party members. Or something. If that doesn't work, then the best thing to do may be to switch your character - not to Pun-Pun, but to something more playable. You can still have a bard-like character with a rogue/sorcerer or something, after all, and you'll get the others to stop laughing at your character. If you can't beat them, join them.
Tomi Shadows 01-26-07, 05:23 PM	Yes, those are pretty good ideas, besides the leaving them part.. I think I might make the ubercharacter, but knowing some of them they will be like "wow, you should have played this the whole time!" The character I am playing is an actor, and I'm going to go into Master of Masks, but as of now it doesn't seem if I have a chance. By the way, anyone have a level 2 pun pun I could maybe just use? :P
TheChilliGod 01-26-07, 05:27 PM	You know how to find the Pun-Pun thread, right? If not, it's in my sig somewhere. I recall they managed to figure out a way to make Pun-Pun who he is at level 1, by calling on Pazuzu or some such thing. If so, then it would be in that same thread, even though I can't (be bothered to) find it myself.
KingDust 01-26-07, 05:38 PM	Another way you handle this situation is to tell everyone in your group how you feel about this situation and take a break from them. If you feel you need to play, you can always try to join an online DnD Session.
BlackZed 01-26-07, 06:06 PM	Poor bards. They can be truly awesome characters, but people just don't want to accept it. Bah. My favorite character ever was a bard (yes, Black Zed). He wasn't a tank, he wasn't the frontline guy, but he was always responsible for pulling the collective party hind end out of the fire. If my group had reacted poorly to Zed, they would have soon found out hey, wasn't that guy keeping all our party loot? Why won't anyone in town talk to us anymore? Zed was NE. He would have taken all the loot and disappeared, hitting every town he could and telling all the people he could about how degenerate and lowly the party was. :D But then, that also only would have worked with a DM that didn't have his head up where the sun doesn't shine. Personally, from there, I'd make an evil cleric. *shrug* Cleric, heal me? Heal? Whoops, I only have inflict spells. Gee, sorry, did that hurt? But then I'm a vindictive broad.
Fatalis_902 01-26-07, 06:15 PM	Personally, I do not reccomend going Pun-pun, as that would defnately lose you the group. You would be kicked out, and you would lose these "frinds". Then again, if they can't at least try to help your character, especially against something that clearly can't do much to them, they're not really friends in my book. More like passive-aggressive enemies, but I digress. Instead of Pun-pun, just play a C.o.D.-zilla. Emphasis on the D. C.o.D. stands for Cleric or Druid, and the -zilla suffix means that it is as close to Pun-pun as yopu can get in core, give or take a bit. I don't kow what the optimizers on the CO boards are capable of with just core, but I'm genuinely afraid. That said, the four things that I would never want to fight in D&D, in order from least feared to most feared, are Monk 20, Cleric 20, prepared Wizard 20, and finally Druid 20. Believe me, if you play a druid, you can survive into mid-levels, or just till you get wildshape, and then if they try any stupid ****, you can slaughter them for it.
Arturius1 01-26-07, 06:32 PM	I'll admit that I had my problems with bard for a while, then I started DMing. Bards are made for plot-based games, which are the kind I run. Your "friends" probably give you crap about bard because they aren't built for combat, which is not a bad thing. D&D is more about killing things in a dank, underground environment, and most fights against intelligent creatures can be won with some sweet words. But seeing as your DM and party are being jerks about this, I'd make up a more combat-oriented character in case the bard doesn't make it.
Animae_Draconum 01-26-07, 06:47 PM	Afraid of the CO boards? Why? Most of our endeavors are in theoretical thought exercises and helping to make mechanically efficient characters for those that ask us to. In fact Khan the Destroyer specifically states that Pun-Pun is a thought excercise on RAW and was not intended to be played. But for our purposes here I think Pun-Pun is an acceptabel solution to fix the infestation of douchebags. Do us a favor and give him Exotic Weapon Proficency: Folding Chair and Hammer Gun A_D
Rivelstraz 01-26-07, 06:49 PM	I'll admit that I had my problems with bard for a while, then I started DMing. Bards are made for plot-based games, which are the kind I run. Your "friends" probably give you crap about bard because they aren't built for combat, which is not a bad thing. D&D is more about killing things in a dank, underground environment, and most fights against intelligent creatures can be won with some sweet words. But seeing as your DM and party are being jerks about this, I'd make up a more combat-oriented character in case the bard doesn't make it. Any D&D class is built having combat in mind. A Bard can be a decent tank, so why not try that? Alter self (Lizardfolk or Troglodyte for +6 total AC) combined with a shield (mithril if possible) and a mithril chain mail with a decent dex will get you +14 AC or so. Remember the low hit points... Too bad bless and bard music does not stack (both are morale effects) Your 'friends' need to grow up. So what if you decided to play an useless 'combination'? Who are they to tell you how to play or what to play?
Qwicksilver 01-26-07, 07:28 PM	Hmm NO bard love ever. Well I think the most expedient way is for you to take a break from the group and ask them to examine why they play, because if it is for having powerful build characters who can do cool things in battle, they've got this new fangled contraption called a video game. Being somewhat chaotic aligned in real life, I'd say that you shouldn't make a build character who merely just fits into their goals and aspirations unless you truly agree with their goals and aspirations as well. I wouldn't leave them either, unless your friendship with them has been waning on many other fronts recently. I think perhaps what you need is a break or a rethink, or giving them time to rethink is perhaps more important. I don't think you should dick their game over, nor should you just give into their game. It seems from the way you word it that, they DM especially has it out for your character. Maybe he thought he was just gonna teach you a lesson in how bards suck but he clearly wasn't doing so by any 3.5 rules. Taking out your fascinate ability, I would say, is one of the worst offenses as it is perhaps your most powerful given ability. He could argue that the creature was alerted to some kind of "obvious threat" that you posed, but seeing as how you seemed so damn helpless, well you can't have it both ways can you? I'm guessing that whatever your level is, you've maxed out your perform checks, and thus should be able to fascinate let's say 80% monsters with a good roll. I've also never heard of some kind of invisible, invulnerable to fire, invulnerable to physical damage web. I haven't read all the source books, but I'm guessing either that monster was a CR way higher than you could ever hope to defeat, or (more likely) the DM again is trying to "teach you a lesson". No one likes a bard, and it's kind of sad. Yes they aren't the most powerful classes, but they are probably the easiest to get into from an RP standpoint. Just like Barbarians are easy to get into in terms of combat, but flat or "hard" to RP, the Bard is just the opposite. Not exactly the opposite mind you, but bards will have a hard time playing a specialized role. Some say they're not even a jack of all trades because they do everything crapily. Well I'd say a guy who does every aspect well isn't a jack of all trades, he's an unbalanced character. Regardless suffice it to say that, you can play a quiet fighter, barbarian, ranger, rogue, wizard, sorcerer, monk, druid, or paladin, it's possible and sometimes even likely. You can never, ever, play a quiet or stoic bard, or at least it's just very hard to.
hmmmm 01-26-07, 07:58 PM	All you really need to do with pun-pun is write "infinite" on all his stats. Then print out the explination of why. Show it to your GM and kick ass!
icecoldkiller 01-26-07, 08:03 PM	i think its sad that bards get so mistreated by their partys. i played in a campaign as a bard. it was an evil campaign and for some reason the party leader thought i just played music FOR FUN!! they thought i was being useless. they couldnt seem to notice the magic healing spells i casted or buffs i gave him(this is in character) to try be more interesting i went dirge singer PrC. the party leader was hell bent on the fact that because i dont get into melee combat with my d6 hit die, 10 strength and ac of a whooping 18 in a 7th level campaign. he decided i was useless and because it was a millitaristic campaign he demoted me from a captin to a private! i decided to just wait it out and use passive ressistance. when i didnt do what the party leader wanted he had a pscion and a warlock kill me. a total of 73 damge to my 43 hp. this is but one more story of how bards get mistreated by people who do not or will not understand how a bard works. it makes me mad to see PCs and even the DM pick on bards just because they view them as useless. in my opinion i think u should ditch ur bard 4 the moment and make ur self a shadowcaster! at level 2 it will be worse than ur bard casting 1 1st level spell once per day. when they start demanding u cast useful spells u can tell them that ur bard was able to cast more spells than ur shadowcaster and that they decided to abandon ur bard. if every thing works out they will want ur bard back
pedro2112 01-26-07, 08:09 PM	Fascinate would never work in that situation; it is meant for non-combat scenarios. The bigger problem is that the DM specifically created this encounter to kill you. He put a monster with abilities that far exceed any rational CR that your 2nd level party could defeat, much less your single character. Simply put, he will keep killing you. Leave the group and find another.
danielinthewolvesden 01-26-07, 08:39 PM	Try stting down with everyone and discussing this like adults. Then, if that does not work, either run some powergame combo or leave. I suggest leaving.
Fatalis_902 01-26-07, 09:25 PM	Afraid of the CO boards? Why? Most of our endeavors are in theoretical thought exercises and helping to make mechanically efficient characters for those that ask us to. In fact Khan the Destroyer specifically states that Pun-Pun is a thought excercise on RAW and was not intended to be played. But for our purposes here I think Pun-Pun is an acceptabel solution to fix the infestation of douchebags. Do us a favor and give him Exotic Weapon Proficency: Folding Chair and Hammer Gun A_D I once had to explain Pun-pun to a friend, and described him as just that. A thought exercise designed for the express purpose of testing his creator's optimization abilities within a set parameter. That said, I avoid the CO boards and in fact border on true fear of them, as the aversion power, ML 15, because of what you are able to do within a pre-set boundary. STill, I may pay them a visit later, I need to check the mechanics on a kineticist 10/ Illithid slayer 10.
Thubby 01-26-07, 09:25 PM	i say get 2 of your closest friends (outside the group) and do as follows. go to your local staples, and get a vorpal pen-knife next, go to home depot (or lowes) and buy a hammergun and for you, you must go on a divine quest to find cryosilver's most holy of holy folding chairs, the Folding Chair of Salvation. then, on the next gaming night, go, fully armed, and bring justiice and death to these infidels. in all seriousness, sit down and talk with them, tell them they are metagaming, being very rude, and dense as a neutron star.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 01-26-07, 10:21 PM	Do any of you have any ideas of how I could get out of this situation without making it easy for the DM to screw me over? Please don't suggest "leave the group", there are no other groups for me to play with. Hmm well now that you've barred the most odviouse answaer I'm going to have to go with faloniouse assult. The DM: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/ShadowDragon8685/crossbowhammergun.gif It's a simple, yet elegant solution. The asshats, err I mean players. I highly recomend soka's folding chair solution. Step 1: http://www.hogwild.net/images/Misc/wwe-folding-chair.jpg Step 2: "Steve stop being an ass hat. Repeat Step 1 as needed: http://www.absolute-playstation.com/gp2a/wwe_smackdown_4_shut_your_mouth_lr_5.jpg Step 3: good gaming.
GSonic7 01-26-07, 11:25 PM	There is a PrC in Complete Arcane that gives bards (as it seems to be intended for) up to 9th level spells (when they get to a high enough level), along with more bardic music things. I don't have the book on me right now, but I believe it is called Sublime Chord. That at least makes you a better caster. Of course, Pun-Pun is always a good option.
draco1119 01-26-07, 11:36 PM	Pun-Pun is NEVER a solution! Your best bet: Play a N Cleric. Refuse to heal. :D
athynz 01-26-07, 11:47 PM	Your Dm is a pr1ck...and the rest of the players in your campaign are jerks. If he put that kind of encounter there it was solely to kill off your character and sounds prearranged from your description of the event... I haven't been here long enough continuously to know what pun pun is but it sounds like the right thing to spring on those jerks.
FeceMan 01-27-07, 02:34 AM	What spells do you know? How much HP do you have? What are your items and stats?
ZombieDragon 01-27-07, 02:49 AM	Wow I'm almost glad I have a small group.
dodger1972rp 01-27-07, 03:08 AM	Look, its obvious your dm and the other players suck. If you continue to play with them be prepared for continued suckiness. You can go one of three routes; 1) Explain to them why your upset, cry, and keep it going long enough that they capitulate. 2) Die, make a bunch of grudge characters and just start offing the other players and all the dm's npcs. 3) Die, put II behind the name of your character and start playing again. If the dm and the players complain tell them that when they start playing like adults then you will too.
Real_iceman 01-27-07, 09:01 AM	charming is your power......( Charm the spider and turn it against you companions, that would show them ) :P
itwasntme 01-27-07, 09:30 AM	Ok Bards ... in my group arnt the Greatest (Coz where allways in situations where we lose some important pieace and in the Bards case his muscol intrument and we need him to fight now and he cant very well ...) But we would still welcome you to the party and wish that you could Charm the **** out of eveyone for us and turn it on the people The DM Dosnt know the rules of the game and nether do the players There acting like idiots but aparntly these are your only group so lets try and solve this as friends they should relize that there just makeing up crap on the Web Just charm the spider and turn it on the party and if the DM gos no that dosnt happin point out in the books thats its perfectly legol Then just play a super powerfull character and laf at the barbian for running away from a creature that did 8 damage to him like a cowerd In short if your character sucks point out how there characters suck as well I hate to be rude but it seems thats the only way its going to be Hm get them on hear and let us know about it so we can Tell them how much there dumb ass's?
lathropdragon 01-27-07, 10:01 AM	You know the old saying, With friends like that.... I actually had a situation like this MANY years ago when I used to play. The group I was playing with weren't my best friends...just basically people I knew well from school. So I broke off, worked at being a DM, and found some others that had always wanted to play but didn't like the group I was formally in. We had an incredible time and tons of fun for a couple of years before we went our separate ways to college and so on. That second experience is why I'm beginning again after a 20 year hiatus...for the fun of it. If your group is just like this with that one character, I would take others advise and just create a knew one...be the bigger person even though it sucks. If your group is like this in general and it just escalated because of the bard situation...I say break off and start your own group.
daneofdanger 01-27-07, 10:04 AM	while Bards can indeed seems kindof useless at times, your party is over-reacting to a rediculous degree. it'd be fine if they periodically laughed at your bard for being a bard, but what's the point in treating him badly? or more to the point, what's the point of trying to get him killed? he can charm, he can heal, he can buff, and I believe that it was you who detected the magic to start with. if they succeed in killing off your char, roll up a super-power-gamed druid, and tell your DM that you fail all of your will saves. eventually, you (in giant tiger form) and your animal buddy (also in giant tiger form) will (while buffed up and able to run through any distance of forest instantly) get charmed and turned against your party, and they'll either wipe, or nearly wipe.
Bob Loblaw 01-27-07, 10:29 AM	I used to think of bards as second-class characters. One day, one of my players announced she would be playing a bard in my new campaign starting at 1st level. She was amazing. I really had to consider what I threw at the party because of her addition to the group. With her bardic music and spell combinations, the party was regularly getting +2 to +7 throughout the combat to most of their checks. She had no problem working within the restrictions of being able to use only one musical ability at a time since they can last for a few rounds after she finished singing. What you need to do is really study and learn the class. Read up on all the spells available to you. See about taking bardic music feats. Then start using them. Remember that these abilities tend to affect your allies. These people do not seem like allies. Do not affect them with your abilities. Dominate the battlefield. Dominate the skill checks. Be everything without them. When they start to realize that you are a valuable member of the team (usually only one will realize this at first), then include him among your allies. When the rest of the group sees him getting more powerful because he is your friend, the rest won't be too far behind. If anyone throws you into a web to be eaten by a spider, that person is not your friend. Treat them as such. Find a reason why your character would continue adventuring with these sadistic murderers and see what you can do to change their minds. I'm a big fan of learning the class better than they can. Teach them the errors of their ways. Of course, I would really be considering leaving the group even if that meant I wasn't going to be gaming. It is just a hobby and far from my only social outlet.
Novabomb 01-27-07, 10:31 AM	First things first, as far as getting out of the situation goes you are shafted. The DM is obviously purposely killing your character. The next step is determine what you are going to do with the group. Things you should keep in mind: 1) If you are not having fun, then you are wasting your time, and you are building up negative emotion. No DnD > Bad Dnd 2) Online Gaming is an option. 3) Gaming out of Spite is pointless. It still causes a buildup of negative emotion, and the DM can always tell you to leave. 4) Pun-Pun is never the answer. I don't know what books you have access to but Pun-Pun is faerun specific campaign setting. What I recommend: Firstly, talk to the group. Explain that the dissing is not cool. In fact direct them to this thread. Secondly, since they are giving you problems over your powerlevel there are two main solutions. 1) Come back with another half-elven bard, make sure its a diplomancer. Ask the CO board to direct you to the apropriate threads. Additionally ask direction to the bard optimization threads. 2) Play a party breaker. Not a campaign smasher. A character to overshadow all party members, but not destroy the campaign realm. Ask the CO boards for help on this (they will need to be told the builds of the rest of the players), preface it by explaining your situation. I am working under the assumption that your not gimping yourself on purpose, and that you just liked the concept of a half-elven bard. What i mean by that is that I am assuming you do not have strong optimization fu, and that your not playing a weak character (note: without seeing the build I have no idea how strong it was) just to be weak.
Jezmund 01-27-07, 05:57 PM	IMO Bard is the most maligned class out there. In almost any situation, the Bard can tip the scales one way or the other. Inspiration music for easy buffing in any situation, arcane casting in armor, knowledge about just about anything under any sun, high Bluff/Diplomacy, Use Magic Item, good status and debuff magic. Too many people characterize the Bard as a fruity flamboyant type. While some no doubt are, the Bard can be played as an assertive, spontaneous, creative leader second to none. Half-elf notwithstanding :p
TheDarkLord 01-27-07, 06:13 PM	You are a 2nd Level bard right? Start playing your party against itself. Use your Fascinate Ability, Diplomacy Skill, and Charm person against the party. Get the Barbarian to take down your spellcasters then get the barbarian to rest easy and sleep while you watch for enemies then Coup De Grace him while he sleeps. You could also use lullaby and sleep if you wanted. Both good spells. At lower levels is where the bard shines, at mid to higher levels you'll run into many problems and DC's you just can't beat. Put your party in it's place now and use a bard to do it. Play your character to it's abilities and Manipulate at will :D.
Cold Napalm 01-27-07, 06:27 PM	The DM is after you and he does not play by anything remotely RAW, your not gonna win...period. If it was just the players you might have a chance, but with the douche DM it's over, walk away (either before or AFTER the hammer gun) and find a play by mail game or start your own.
Olskool 01-27-07, 06:51 PM	Instead of complaining about how the group won't adapt to your playing style, you should try adapting to theirs. If you can't beat em join em. Your group clearly hates bards. Here's an idea: Don't play a bard.
athynz 01-27-07, 07:06 PM	Instead of complaining about how the group won't adapt to your playing style, you should try adapting to theirs. If you can't beat em join em. Your group clearly hates bards. Here's an idea: Don't play a bard. Why adapt to a bunch of idiotic jerk0ffs? Stick with the bard and make him kick ass! I've never played one myself but I have been in campaigns with players who used them well and it made combat easier with the buff spells than without, bardic knowledge was a big help quite a few times, and when it came to selling off loot, the bard's charisma helped get us a better sellling price. Though, the more I consider the situation the more I'm seeing them as trying to push you away from the campaign in general... Was this a group you recently joined or was there some sort of out of game tension?
Olskool 01-27-07, 07:28 PM	Why adapt to a bunch of idiotic jerk0ffs? 1. Because they're in the majority. 2. Because without them he has no game.
Cold Napalm 01-27-07, 07:45 PM	1. Because they're in the majority. 2. Because without them he has no game. 1) And is that such a bad thing?!? 2) and what about play by mail? or starting his own game? There is ALWAYS more options then playing with a bunch of *******s.
Olskool 01-27-07, 07:57 PM	1. Because they're in the majority. 2. Because without them he has no game. 1) And is that such a bad thing?!? 2) and what about play by mail? or starting his own game? There is ALWAYS more options then playing with a bunch of *******s. Read the OP. He already said leaving wasn't an option he's willing to entertain. Of course despite this, everyone told him to leave anyways, but there you go. That's what people do here.
Bopple 01-27-07, 09:09 PM	One thing is clear. Your DM is out to KILL your bard, on purpose. That means none in the world can save your bard. Period. Accept it. Don't bother trying to save him. It's of no use. What you have to do is, to decide to stay or not. And if you are to leave, to revenge or not? I'd rather leave the group and play a chat-game on irc or on similar sort of on-line service. And it wonders me why your so-called friends hate your bard. One of my friend played a half-elf bard. He was not really powerful. But everyone liked him, because he buffed party members with bardic music and spells. He made all the others to outshine him.
LeannaMoonbody 01-27-07, 09:44 PM	Wow your DM and fellow players are jerks. I am currently playing a female bard myself, and she is my favorite character out of all of them that I have created. Bard's are great support, but if your not supported in turn without good reason than thats just unjustified. I agree with people. Stick with your Bard. Just because people are giving you **** for it doesn't mean you have to get rid of him. I would try everything under the sun. Even if you have a dc of 40 for a escape artist check, you can still roll a natural 20, or what about just trying to get one hand free? If you can get one hand free and or cast, there are several small spells you could use, like Prestidigitation. Effects last one hour, and perhaps you can use that as a distraction to the spider, or use spells that benefit you, since you will not have to worry about saving throws on yourself. Now the phb says *for fascinate* that the target must be with in *hearing range* You can sing, or use poetics to get this off. Screw it. Why fascinate the spider, why not fascinate your party members? Things like mage hand... yeah only 5 pounds but any small objects can be used to throw at the spider... and or any other creative way you could use it. Let me know how this all pans out for you.
Tomi Shadows 01-27-07, 10:44 PM	Well I did talk to the DM, and he said that he was not actually going to kill my character, but he is still in this predicament, and until something happens or the party decides to save me, I am pretty much not doing anything.. But thanks for suggestions everyone! By the way, I've looked into it and have ruled out the punpun, just because its not my personality to do that. I think I will just show them how much tougher it is to fight without me, because the reason we had a chance in the last battle was my musical bonus. I'll sit down by a tree and write poetry or something until they beg me to help them out. Maybe.. Hehe, or maybe just throw a smokestick into the middle of their melee. :P
ZombieDragon 01-28-07, 02:33 AM	Well if you don't get to play your bard, and have ruled out the punster. Try a cleric that acts paladinly yet is more a vigilante CG or CN will work. Use all your spells to buff yourself and refuse to heal or cast on the others, due to their unworthiness. Charging them for spells is another idea, my sister did this to me after I left her high and dry in a fight. I'll never do that again.
Whisper_Swiftblade 01-28-07, 02:46 AM	repeat after me; hey guys if you don't like the PC you don't like him, however your pcs may have other oppinions, also if you have got a problem why don't you just grow up and at least pretend like your heads are not stuck up your ***s long enuff that we can play a game of D&D instead of let's mess with the bard. probally a bit harsh, i suggest trying to speak rationaly with them before pulling this one out.
kelvinaw273 01-28-07, 08:04 AM	Just leave. Don't make any bones over why, just explain that their style, which you call 'who can play the biggest douche-bag' is not one you are happy playing with, and withdraw from this game and find some players with a mental age higher than their shoe-size. In fact, don't waste breath explaining unless they ask, just stay above all of the 'revenge' rubbish. All it means if you have stooped to their (very low) level.
mkill 01-28-07, 09:04 AM	I can only second the leaving options. Really, you'd be surprised how many good groups are out there, how many good players. If you just start searching you'll find a good group sooner or later. There is absolutely no reason to stick to a bunch of idiots. And yes, killing off another character (or leaving him to die, which is not better) for "being a bard" is very, very high on the idiot scale. Really, don't stay with that group unless you enjoy to be bullied. They killed your character for off-game reasons! So obviously they can always find some reason not to like your character. If your character was more effective, they'd probably whine how you are stealing their show instead. Really, the only way to solve this is telling them what immature idiots they are, right in their face, until they start seeing it themselves. Don't scream, don't whine, don't talk to the DM. Just tell every player, in a very calm voice: "You are such and idiot, you are not even able to play D&D properly." If you don't feel like doing that, leave and find people with social skills. See, they didn't hate your character. They bullied you, because you were an easy target that didn't fight back, and that didn't even think of leaving the group even though they ruined your fun.
lathropdragon 01-28-07, 09:21 AM	Instead of complaining about how the group won't adapt to your playing style, you should try adapting to theirs. If you can't beat em join em. Your group clearly hates bards. Here's an idea: Don't play a bard. I have to agree with this. On one side of the scale: Everyone including your DM hates your Bard. You take some advise here and "stick with it". The group and DM continue the harassment to the point that you're so frustrated you quit the group. There aren't any other groups so now you're on you own. You could learn to become a DM and start you're own group as I said in another post...but that's gambling hoping there are others that want to play. On the other side of the scale: Everyone including your DM hates your Bard. You take some advise here and go uber on the group. You now alienate the entire group, severly upset the DM (even if you are in the right according to the rules of the game)(and the DM is in charge of this little adventure), and risk getting kicked out of the group. Again...out on your own. If playing a bard is going to upset the group this much, no amount of education on the benefits of playing a bard is going to get through to them. Just swallow your pride and go with the group. You'll be the bigger person in the end and get to continue playing in the only group around.
athynz 01-28-07, 11:29 AM	Well I did talk to the DM, and he said that he was not actually going to kill my character, but he is still in this predicament, and until something happens or the party decides to save me, I am pretty much not doing anything.. But thanks for suggestions everyone! By the way, I've looked into it and have ruled out the punpun, just because its not my personality to do that. I think I will just show them how much tougher it is to fight without me, because the reason we had a chance in the last battle was my musical bonus. I'll sit down by a tree and write poetry or something until they beg me to help them out. Maybe.. Hehe, or maybe just throw a smokestick into the middle of their melee. :P Good call. I hope this ends up working out for you without you having to change your character out or you leaving.
Novabomb 01-28-07, 12:09 PM	I have to agree with this. On one side of the scale: Everyone including your DM hates your Bard. You take some advise here and "stick with it". The group and DM continue the harassment to the point that you're so frustrated you quit the group. There aren't any other groups so now you're on you own. You could learn to become a DM and start you're own group as I said in another post...but that's gambling hoping there are others that want to play. On the other side of the scale: Everyone including your DM hates your Bard. You take some advise here and go uber on the group. You now alienate the entire group, severly upset the DM (even if you are in the right according to the rules of the game)(and the DM is in charge of this little adventure), and risk getting kicked out of the group. Again...out on your own. If playing a bard is going to upset the group this much, no amount of education on the benefits of playing a bard is going to get through to them. Just swallow your pride and go with the group. You'll be the bigger person in the end and get to continue playing in the only group around. This does not work for the following reason: "IF you are not playing a character you want to play, then you are wasting your time". No DnD > Bad DnD
Olskool 01-28-07, 03:12 PM	This does not work for the following reason: "IF you are not playing a character you want to play, then you are wasting your time". Kind of a selfish attitude for something that's supposed to be a group activity.
daneofdanger 01-28-07, 04:50 PM	Kind of a selfish attitude for something that's supposed to be a group activity. in a sence, that's true. BUT what is the group dynamic going to be if one or more of the party members is having a crappy time? you shouldn't go off and do somehting that can't work with the group (like playing a hermit druid or some other loner character in a party game). Bards are the oposite of this. they are usless without a group. thier entire purpose is to help everybody out. your group should be grateful that you sacrificed all of your axe-wielding, head splitting potential and chose instead to buff thier characters. explain to them that Bards are weak on thier own because they aren't meant to go solo. they're there to help the group. why get ****** off about someone chosing to help you?
Whisper_Swiftblade 01-28-07, 05:59 PM	not long ago I asked the boys down at the char opt board about makeing a powerful melee bard, when I find the link i will post it, maybe they will change tunes when you are outfighting the fighter. found it http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=776032
High Octane 01-28-07, 07:01 PM	Step 1: Hit them all in the face with a folding chair Step 2: Call them all Steve and tell them to quit being douches Step 3: Leave and never play with them again Step 4: Profit :dancin: -Gene Step 3 is all that is necessary. But step 4 is nice too. Seriously, if this happened they arent just bad D&D players, they are horrible people not worth your time.
Magrus 01-28-07, 09:20 PM	@ OP, As mentioned above, your party/DM sucks. I have only killed a player's character once in a game, and it was because the player was a horrible player and just didn't play. I booted him out of the game when I killed his character. There should be no other reason to just outright go after a character like that as a DM. It seems like you're stuck in a situation you may not be able to get out of. That royally sucks, and ruins your gaming experience. If you end up screwed again, and want a place to game at, I help to run a small DnD based site/forum. The link is in my sig, and I am starting a game in a few weeks. You would be more than welcome to join up. It's forum based, but hey, my players aren't dicks, and it seems like you would prefer to role play, and they enjoy that. Short of that? Ask them to lay off and let you play your character. If this stuff keeps happening, make a new character. Make a rogue in fact. Focus on a combat based rogue, and make it so they think you will now be a great big, hulking sneak attack machine. When they get all excited, and start to treat you good, and there is a big fight going on....switch sides. When you are staying back to guard the wizard, stab him in the back. Tumble around the fighter, and clip him once for good measure. Run. Then hide. Play guerrilla warfare with the cleric until you kill him. Now the party has no healer or wizard and the tanks are going to be screwed and unable to find you. A human Barbarian/Rogue with Run and WF: Greataxe should be fun. Screw the skills, you only will need Hide, Move Silently, Survival and Tumble. A few nominal points in Listen and Spot will let you find the rest of the party if they attempt to hide on you. Pump your Str, Dex and Con and leave the rest around 8-10. You should now be able to outrun anyone besides a monk, mounted character, or spell-buffed character if you stick to light armor. Enjoy your new game of Rambo 4.
FeceMan 01-28-07, 11:10 PM	In my awesome opinion, you ought to do two things. 1. Barter for your life with Shelob. 2. Multiclass rogue, fighter, and sorcerer. I'd go rogue 3/fighter 2/sorcerer 2/abjurant champion 5/unseen seer 8. You'll be hardcore awesome.
BloodSpill 01-28-07, 11:43 PM	2. Multiclass rogue, fighter, and sorcerer. I'd go rogue 3/fighter 2/sorcerer 2/abjurant champion 5/unseen seer 8. You'll be hardcore awesome. Nale: "A bard, huh? My father taught me that bards were underpowered." Elan: "Really? So what class are you?" Nale: "I'm a multiclass fighter/rogue/sorcerer who specialises in enchantment spells." Elan: "And that never struck you as needlessly complicated?" Nale: "Not until this moment, no." :D
FeceMan 01-29-07, 01:32 AM	Precisely. The OP also needs to bring up the bard's usefulness at all times. "Wow, it's too bad we aren't getting that +4 on attack and damage rolls. This fight would probably be over now." "Sorry you died, but I can't cast healing spells...although bards can be healers in a pinch." "The king's ******? Shame that I can't play an instrument to calm him." "Oops, I didn't learn enchantment/illusion/divination spells...you guys thought bards were weak, so I learned all evocation spells."
mkill 01-29-07, 10:38 AM	Precisely. The OP also needs to bring up the bard's usefulness at all times. "Wow, it's too bad we aren't getting that +4 on attack and damage rolls. This fight would probably be over now." "Sorry you died, but I can't cast healing spells...although bards can be healers in a pinch." "The king's ******? Shame that I can't play an instrument to calm him." "Oops, I didn't learn enchantment/illusion/divination spells...you guys thought bards were weak, so I learned all evocation spells." While I totally agree with these arguments, I feel the other players in his group won't get those simple clues, unless every word is emphasized with a folding chair smack.
nephsytis 01-29-07, 12:07 PM	play your bard, buff up perform bluff and diplomacy, and do what out bard does. the bard is a low wisdom 'bimbo' fop, who frequently chooses to do exactly whats not the thing to do, ie: pick up what looks like a cape, but is really a cloaker, try and grab the two rings that are deffinitely the triggers to a trap before the rogue searches for traps (and after the rogue found some traps) when the group tries to talk him out of it he says, "roll a diplomacy check to disuade me, and i'll roll to persuade you." needless to say the bard's super doopa charisma mod and max dip ranks mean every body does what he wants. which means if your group want to go left, diplome then to go right. if the fighter wants the +5 axe that you think is better to be sold (for reasons i dont know) bluff him, diplome him or fascinate him. even if your groups a puddle of halfwits and melted cheese they will realise that this can actually be useful in hostile situations. and take leadership at level six.
Mindolin 01-29-07, 12:53 PM	Okay, first off, I agree with the OP that the players and DM are acting very immature. However, something that I noticed that no one else has responded to is how the failure of his bard to Fascinate the spider was completely within the rules, even if it would have failed the save. From what I can see, it seems to have been an awakened monstrous spider, which is immune to mind affecting abilities, which Fascinate and Charm spells, which have also been suggested, qualify as. However, the web is invisible, but you should be able to attack it, at worst I might give a 20% miss chance due to concealment, and that only if I feel like being cruel. Why does everyone think a bard is so weak? As a DM I've only used bards twice in my campaigns, because they managed to beat an equal level PC in two rounds.
Sereno 01-30-07, 10:46 AM	Read the OP. He already said leaving wasn't an option he's willing to entertain. Of course despite this, everyone told him to leave anyways, but there you go. That's what people do here. Sometimes, people who find themselves in no-win situations don't realize that they are, in fact, in a no-win situation. In those cases it's sometimes necessary to present the reasons why an option they don't want to consider is, in fact, the only one that will "fix" the situation. The OP might not *want* to leave his game, but it seems really unlikely that he's ever going to have a good time playing with these people. He's just a very poor fit.
Olskool 01-30-07, 12:45 PM	Sometimes, people who find themselves in no-win situations don't realize that they are, in fact, in a no-win situation. In those cases it's sometimes necessary to present the reasons why an option they don't want to consider is, in fact, the only one that will "fix" the situation. The OP might not *want* to leave his game, but it seems really unlikely that he's ever going to have a good time playing with these people. He's just a very poor fit. You do have a point. Like most folks, I wouldn't want to stay in a situation like that myself. I guess most of the advice people give around here comes down to "make the group change their style for you! Never compromise! Not even in the face of armageddon!" Nobody ever seems to advise people to change their style to adapt to the larger group. Which just seems like more practical advice to me. Also, advice like "show those jerks how powerful bards reallly are... by killing them! and then make pun pun....by killing them!" don't really seem like the best way to make the group like and accept you. Advice like that just seems childish and spiteful.
Magrus 01-30-07, 12:57 PM	Advice like that just seems childish and spiteful. Sometimes people don't respond in a positive way to reason and logic, or maturity. It's like the bullies I dealt with in school. Outsmarting them just severely angered them after they threw insults. They decided to throw punches instead. Leaving, or sitting there didn't stop it. So, I broke limbs. That ended the whole situation. It wasn't the best solution, but it was the most efficient way to get through to them after the better solutions weren't effective. This is a different scenario to be sure, however, the OP said he doesn't want to leave. That means either dealing with things their way, or beating it into their heads that they are being childish and stupid.
Sereno 01-30-07, 02:19 PM	Nobody ever seems to advise people to change their style to adapt to the larger group. Which just seems like more practical advice to me. True ... I think we value "personal rights" (to the exclusion of getting along) just a little too highly, these days. We see this a lot on the boards ... players who scream about their DMs "restricting" them, or even better "oppressing" them, just because they don't want to let every book/feat/PrC into their game. The quote generally boils down to: "I don't CARE if YOU aren't having fun ... what's important here is that *I* have fun!" DnD is, above anything else, a *social* game ... being able to get along with others is critical to being a "good" DnD player....
daen 01-30-07, 02:48 PM	I wouldnt change my character just because the group doesnt think your powerfull enough you chose that character you thought him up so he is in essence you kindof. I am not telling you what to do thats your choice and I know how frustrating it is to want to play and not have a group to play with I also understand why you dont really want to play online, but what if you continued to play with them while trying to start your own group then if thats succesfull you can switch groups and continue to be a halfelf bard
athynz 01-31-07, 07:54 PM	True ... I think we value "personal rights" (to the exclusion of getting along) just a little too highly, these days. We see this a lot on the boards ... players who scream about their DMs "restricting" them, or even better "oppressing" them, just because they don't want to let every book/feat/PrC into their game. The quote generally boils down to: "I don't CARE if YOU aren't having fun ... what's important here is that *I* have fun!" DnD is, above anything else, a *social* game ... being able to get along with others is critical to being a "good" DnD player.... I could see your point IF the whole freaking group including the DM didn't act like a bunch of jerks... I'll grant that one has to be willing to compromise - believe me after 15 years of marriage I've learned that lesson pretty well - but in this case it doesn't seem like the others want to compromise a bit, hence the understandable calls for making object lessons to his DM and other players. The OP doesn't want to leave this group because it's the only game in town and that's understandable but the question is would the OP be happier changing his character to suit everyone else and staying or finding an alternative such as PBEM or something online and be able to play the character he wants to? That's a question only he can answer, all we can do is to give advice he's free to take or leave as he sees fit. Personally I'd be more likely to continue to play that particular character if he makes it out of the invisible indestructible web the DM put out there to screw the bard (IMHO anyhow) or create a very similar character - but then I'm a contrary old ba$tard who doesn't take but so much crap from people who act like this guy's group is....:D
Shadow Adept 01-31-07, 08:57 PM	I wonder if it is the bard class that causes your problem. Did they treat you differently when you played another class ?
Sereno 02-01-07, 10:15 AM	I could see your point IF the whole freaking group including the DM didn't act like a bunch of jerks... I'll grant that one has to be willing to compromise - believe me after 15 years of marriage I've learned that lesson pretty well - but in this case it doesn't seem like the others want to compromise a bit, hence the understandable calls for making object lessons to his DM and other players. I think you misunderstand me; I wasn't addressing this to the OP, I was just responding to Olskool. I wasn't accusing the OP of the behavior I was describing to Olskool ... it seems to me that the OP *IS* the odd-man-out, and that they are saying to him, "We don't care if YOU have fun ... we're having fun so it's all good." This just feels like a serious "bad fit" situation. And, sometimes no DnD is better than bad DnD. The OP *could* change his style/character to fit this group of jerks ... but I doubt he'd be happy. And, what's the point of playing if you aren't having fun?
athynz 02-01-07, 08:50 PM	I think you misunderstand me; I wasn't addressing this to the OP, I was just responding to Olskool. I wasn't accusing the OP of the behavior I was describing to Olskool ... it seems to me that the OP *IS* the odd-man-out, and that they are saying to him, "We don't care if YOU have fun ... we're having fun so it's all good." This just feels like a serious "bad fit" situation. And, sometimes no DnD is better than bad DnD. The OP *could* change his style/character to fit this group of jerks ... but I doubt he'd be happy. And, what's the point of playing if you aren't having fun? I stand corrected... :D I do hope that the OP and his party can find a compromise and they can go on playing and having a good time but based on the post I'm not so sure that's going to happen.
CeilingNinja 02-01-07, 10:16 PM	Yeah, your DM is a jerk, I'm sorry. Bards can be fairly powerful at higher levels, they just take a while to reach their full potential, unfortunately.
skio 02-02-07, 09:40 AM	It is true that DnD is a social activity, but where are THEIR social activities? They do not function as a team but rather as a bunch of bullies picking on the one they know won't fight back (or at least, THINK won't fight back). I'd like to know if these people are your firends or just a group you found at school. From your description I deduce that they have a problem with YOU rather than your character. The question is, do you want to hung out with such people, whether for DnD, pizza, cinema etc? The problem here is not a bad DM, campaign or RP. Is that you are treated as an outsider in the group and you do not get the respect you deserve. The solution in my opinion: continue playing as you see fit (if you survive), having in mind a good RP and a team spirit (although remember that the other PCs betrayed you so you must RP acoordingly). If this does not work, I'm afraid leaving is the only option. We play DnD so that everyone has fun, and I mean EVERYONE, not 'everyone but you.'
Dunsel 02-02-07, 09:59 AM	Ok, so your DM and the rest of the party "hate" you. What did you play before this character? Did they "hate" that one as well? In live D&D, players and DMs, especially immature ones, will make fun of other players name, occupation, favorite lines, effectiveness, etc. You cannot change this until humans are no longer humans. Have you ever made fun of another player/character? Ever? If you manage to live, I suggest the following options: 1) Show the others your character can be effective in situations where they are not. 2) Create a new character that they consider to be effective and see how they react. If they still make fun, then the issue is not the character, it is you. 3) Have them create your new character. This is a good chance for them to show their maturity level. Once they have fully created your characterm play it. I hope this helps.
Tomi Shadows 02-02-07, 06:08 PM	I wonder if it is the bard class that causes your problem. Did they treat you differently when you played another class ? Actually, yes. I have played numerous campaigns with almost the same group, even a bard before, but there are two people I haven't played with, and because they think half elf bards are useless, everyone is tagging along because its funny. I think, if I am continuing to play with them, that I'll just RP out of it. I'll take some rogue, and maybe some assassin, and play as if the character has memory of his party doing this to him. (I am probably the only one who takes RPing seriously in my group though, for this bard I made a journal and wrote poetry in it and epics about our adventures.) Anywho, thanks for all the advice guys. I think I'm just going to be the big man and not whine at them, just play along, and if I feel like it, make them regret it. :mrt:
rironin 02-02-07, 06:54 PM	I wonder if it is the bard class that causes your problem. Did they treat you differently when you played another class ?To the OP: I was going to ask the same question Shadow Adept did, because the whole thing kind of feels like these players are messing with you, not so much because you're a bard, but because they're mean-spirited people. You made an earlier post where your DM told you:he was not actually going to kill my character, but he is still in this predicament, and until something happens or the party decides to save me, I am pretty much not doing anything..This, to me, is a bad sign. Worse than if he'd killed you right then and there. If he'd killed you, it would've been a not very nice way of saying "I don't like your bard so make a new character and let's play a powergaming combat-based game." But it sounds like the rest of your gaming group is enjoying taunting and torturing your character more than having you play an effective one. The new players got a kick out of pushing you down a corridor toward danger, and the DM happily complied with their plan to leave you in the lurch. It sounds like the DM is essentially joining in because the other players are validating him - he feels like he's doing a good job as the DM because the other players cheer him on and laugh when he screws your character over. I wouldn't feel warm and squishy about the fact that your DM has "benevolently" decided not to kill your bard. I could easily be wrong, but it kind of sounds like he's keeping your beloved half-elf alive just to make him the butt of more jokes... Good luck to you, man. I hope you can triumph in the end, but remember - with a DM who has it out for you and doesn't mind bending the rules, there's not much that good role-playing and rules-lawyering can do.