Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Afarian 12-11-04, 08:33 PM	Ok first I want to state that I've only played D&D once before the campaign I'm in now. I played a Dwarven Fighter to maybe lvl 4 or 5 in 2e. So I really have only a general idea from Hearsay of what's generally considered balanced and fair. I know a lot of people play campaigns were all the PC's are way overpowered and too tons of damage and whatnot. However, in this campaign everyone seems nuetered in combat, underpaid and overcharged for every item we want to buy! First off were playing Forgotten Realms and the main city we buy stuff from is Waterdeep (so maybe that has some bearing on it, I don't know) and I'm a lvl 3 wiz/1 rogue. I'm going to break down why I think our DM is being a bit unreasonable by underpowering us in a point by point breakdown. A. Nuetered in Combat. Apparently being able to Move, Take a Standard Action and/or a 5 step is just humanly impossible unless your the Flash 1. So basically Melee/range combat can do a partial move then attack or make a move then partial attack(which basically means if you have mutiple attacks you can attack once if you do a full move 2. If your a spellcaster you have 2 choices, you can NOT MOVE and cast a spell that goes off that turn OR you can do a PARTIAL move and cast but the spell will go off before your round on the next turn--which means you could get the highest inititave one round and the lowest the second round ( I can foresee a few problems with that) B. Underpaid 1. This is the part I'm really not sure about since I've never really got treasure from another DM prior to this, but basically this is the loot we've obtained so far Quest 1 (when we were all level 1) 10plat Quest 2 500 gold and a minor magic/wondrous item (not sure what our limitations were but I think anything that added +2 to a stat was too powerful After exploring a huge dungeon (took about 5-6 sessions to get through) and fighting Fire Newts,Salamanders, Dragonkin, Etten, Takassi (or some stout demonic dude) Draegloth and numerous other creatures with probably similiar CR's we basically ended up with 2,000 gold between the 7 of us (originally 8-9 but 2 Pc's killed themselves) resulting from selling some large gems at about 4,800 gp for both and some Ruby statuettes and rubies at about 1600 a piece (or something like that) Also the Barbarian got some half-plate +1 or something like that and a few magic weapons like a sling Doesn't sound too bad until I decide to go buy some spells. C. Overcharged 1. First thing I wanted to get was something to boost my Dex or Int a little bit I thought I remembered the prices for the minor stat boosting Items being about 2,000 so I thought perhaps I could go get one of those--How much were they? 40,000!!! That's right, BECAUSE They raise your STATS! That's obviously way to powerful for any lvl 4 character to have access to. Something that hides your alignment? Really expensive!! Way too much for someone with about 2,500 gold So finally I go to get some spells from the temple Mystra (which is the goddess I worship) He told me this would be the cheapest place to get spells so I decided to get the following Grease, Identify, Web and Mirror Image. So how much did I pay for these? 1,350! But Hell, that's definelty a discount compared to the standard price of 7,000 Advantages Our characters do get a few advantages such as being able to throw 2 darts in combat. Also the Druid has a sling that's +something to hit from which he can also fire 2 bullets (apparently this is easily accomplished within 6 seconds) Also we got wands with 50 charges of light healing for only 1,000 gold and ANY class can use them. Also, I actually WON an argument with the DM once when he thought the Weapon Focus Feat was Waaaaaay too powerful to be taken by a wizard and applied to Ray or Missile spells. Basically his argument was there were soooooo many powerful ray spells that giving a +1 to hit would just be overpowering! I think I convinced that I wanted to apply it to missiles and pointed out that there were only about 6 or so good missile spells (in the core books) One of the Magic Items was an Axe that will first do damage with one attack 1d6 then the second attack (which can be directed at someone else will heal 1d6) Basically I don't mean to complain that much--the one thing I would like to fix is being able to move and cast in combat. I Don't think I'm going to leave because ALL my friends pretty much play in this group (except the ones who don't play D&D at all) and I don't think anyone of them want to leave either--nobody else seems to have much of a problem with it, and honestly it's just a game with friends to me as well, but it does seem a bit unfair to me as a wizard.
Kainy 12-11-04, 10:26 PM	I'd love to help you, but, well, I can barely make heads or tails of what you're ranting about. Yes, if you move more than 5 ft in a round, you can't make a full attack. Each round, you get a move action and a standard action, or you can do something as a full round action. One or the other. Move actions include a lot of things, but primarily it involves moving your speed. A standard action can be a lot of things as well, but mostly, it involves a single attack. As a full attack, you can make all the attacks your base attack bonus entitles you to. You have to have a total BAB of 6 or more to gain extra attacks from it. Certain class abilities, like a monk's flurry of blows, and certain feats, such as rapid shot, allow you to make extra attacks in addition to those you get from your BAB. Your druid probably has rapid shot. Casting almost any spell is a standard action, which means you can move and do it. Whoever told you that "if you move and then cast a spell, the spell doesn't take effect until just before your turn, next round," is smoking some sort of illegal substance. Spells with the casting time of "1 action" can be cast as a standard action, before or after you take a move action in your turn. As for whatever else you're ranting about, please be clearer... It's hard to make sense of it.
D_Martin 12-11-04, 11:16 PM	You should be able to move your speed and cast a spell in 1 round. But, if you do both, you cannot take a 5-foot step afterwards unless you have the Spring Attack feat. If your Dm isn't allowing standard movements and spells in the same round he is wrong. As far as the money issues, like Kainy I can't really figure out what you are trying to say. From what I see he is doing okay there. 40,000 for a +2 stat raising item is ridiculous(Gloves of Dex +6 are 36,000; a +2 is only 4,000). 1350 for 2-1st level and 2-2nd level spells :ahem: is also outrageous! Market price for those 4 spells is about 550 gp in the DMG. So, he is being unreasonable here, without question!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Have you talked to him about this and showed him the rules in question? Granting weapon focus: Rays is far from over-powered because of the weak BAB of Mages.
Afarian 12-11-04, 11:27 PM	I'd love to help you, but, well, I can barely make heads or tails of what you're ranting about. Yes, if you move more than 5 ft in a round, you can't make a full attack. Each round, you get a move action and a standard action, or you can do something as a full round action. One or the other. Move actions include a lot of things, but primarily it involves moving your speed. A standard action can be a lot of things as well, but mostly, it involves a single attack. As a full attack, you can make all the attacks your base attack bonus entitles you to. You have to have a total BAB of 6 or more to gain extra attacks from it. Certain class abilities, like a monk's flurry of blows, and certain feats, such as rapid shot, allow you to make extra attacks in addition to those you get from your BAB. Your druid probably has rapid shot. Casting almost any spell is a standard action, which means you can move and do it. Whoever told you that "if you move and then cast a spell, the spell doesn't take effect until just before your turn, next round," is smoking some sort of illegal substance. Spells with the casting time of "1 action" can be cast as a standard action, before or after you take a move action in your turn. As for whatever else you're ranting about, please be clearer... It's hard to make sense of it. Sorry if I didn't make much sense. Maybe I should Simplify it more In Combat 1. YOU CANNOT make a full move and ATTACK or CAST a spell in one round. 2. You can Move and THEN Make a partial Attack (if you can do multiple attacks through high BAB or feats) or you can move half your speed then attack. 3. You Can either Cast a spell and NOT move (in which case the spell goes off immediately) OR you can move Half your speed then the spell goes off next round before your turn. 4. However, you can throw 2 darts or sling 2 bullets from a sling. I asked if was aware of the rules which are as you stated. He said that it's humanly impossible to move AND attack/cast a spell unless you've got Superhuman speed like the Flash! Treasure So far we have an average of about one magical item a piece at level 4. I've got a Bracer +2 AC Most other people have something of about that equivalent. We found a total of about 2-3 magical weapons and about 2,600 gold divided amongst 7 characters. We've been playing for about 3-4 months now and raided one giant dungeon that took at least 5 sessions to get through. Costly goods I wanted to buy a +2 INT or +2 Dex item. I know according to the DMG these are about 4,000. According to our GM that price is just a guidline and since your actually raising a stat these are extremely powerful items that have to be custom made for each PC! Therefore the real cost is more like 40,000! The following spell scrolls; Grease, Identify,Web and Mirror Image cost me 1,350 at the temple of the Goddess I worship--that was the discount rate, usually they would have cost me 7,000!!
Morwen 12-11-04, 11:32 PM	I asked if was aware of the rules which are as you stated. He said that it's humanly impossible to move AND attack/cast a spell unless you've got Superhuman speed like the Flash! Moving (running) 30 feet (10 meters if you use the metric system) and slashing once with a weapon doesn't take more than 6 seconds. Which is what the round-time is. Is your DM aware of each round being 6 seconds, or does he think it is shorter? The treasure you have seems pretty normal and fairly in line with the suggested amounts. However, with spell scrolls and other magic items costing 10 times what they're supposed to, you're severely undercompensated. Do the PCs get 10x rates when they sell magic items?
Thorak 12-11-04, 11:39 PM	A. Nuetered in Combat. Apparently being able to Move, Take a Standard Action and/or a 5 step is just humanly impossible unless your the Flash 1. So basically Melee/range combat can do a partial move then attack or make a move then partial attack(which basically means if you have mutiple attacks you can attack once if you do a full move Right. A Move action lets you move your full move. 30 feet for a Human. And you can only make one attack in an Attack action, which is a standard action. If you make a Full Attack, a full-round action and the only way to make more than one attack, you can move no more than a single 5 foot step. 2. If your a spellcaster you have 2 choices, you can NOT MOVE and cast a spell that goes off that turn OR you can do a PARTIAL move and cast but the spell will go off before your round on the next turn--which means you could get the highest inititave one round and the lowest the second round ( I can foresee a few problems with that) Casting a spell is a Standard action. You can still make a full move action in that round. Unless the spell states otherwise. Your DM is wrong here, but right with attacks. B. Underpaid 1. This is the part I'm really not sure about since I've never really got treasure from another DM prior to this, but basically this is the loot we've obtained so far Quest 1 (when we were all level 1) 10plat Quest 2 500 gold and a minor magic/wondrous item (not sure what our limitations were but I think anything that added +2 to a stat was too powerful After exploring a huge dungeon (took about 5-6 sessions to get through) and fighting Fire Newts,Salamanders, Dragonkin, Etten, Takassi (or some stout demonic dude) Draegloth and numerous other creatures with probably similiar CR's we basically ended up with 2,000 gold between the 7 of us (originally 8-9 but 2 Pc's killed themselves) resulting from selling some large gems at about 4,800 gp for both and some Ruby statuettes and rubies at about 1600 a piece (or something like that) Also the Barbarian got some half-plate +1 or something like that and a few magic weapons like a sling Doesn't sound too bad until I decide to go buy some spells. Reward depends on the DM. There's no minimum they're required to give you. C. Overcharged 1. First thing I wanted to get was something to boost my Dex or Int a little bit I thought I remembered the prices for the minor stat boosting Items being about 2,000 so I thought perhaps I could go get one of those--How much were they? 40,000!!! That's right, BECAUSE They raise your STATS! That's obviously way to powerful for any lvl 4 character to have access to. Something that hides your alignment? Really expensive!! Way too much for someone with about 2,500 gold So finally I go to get some spells from the temple Mystra (which is the goddess I worship) He told me this would be the cheapest place to get spells so I decided to get the following Grease, Identify, Web and Mirror Image. So how much did I pay for these? 1,350! But Hell, that's definelty a discount compared to the standard price of 7,000 These aren't the standard PHB prices, but perhaps magic is rarer in his world and thus is more expensive. As long as he's consistent, this isn't an issue. Advantages Our characters do get a few advantages such as being able to throw 2 darts in combat. Also the Druid has a sling that's +something to hit from which he can also fire 2 bullets (apparently this is easily accomplished within 6 seconds) Also we got wands with 50 charges of light healing for only 1,000 gold and ANY class can use them. Also, I actually WON an argument with the DM once when he thought the Weapon Focus Feat was Waaaaaay too powerful to be taken by a wizard and applied to Ray or Missile spells. Basically his argument was there were soooooo many powerful ray spells that giving a +1 to hit would just be overpowering! I think I convinced that I wanted to apply it to missiles and pointed out that there were only about 6 or so good missile spells (in the core books) One of the Magic Items was an Axe that will first do damage with one attack 1d6 then the second attack (which can be directed at someone else will heal 1d6) Basically I don't mean to complain that much--the one thing I would like to fix is being able to move and cast in combat. I Don't think I'm going to leave because ALL my friends pretty much play in this group (except the ones who don't play D&D at all) and I don't think anyone of them want to leave either--nobody else seems to have much of a problem with it, and honestly it's just a game with friends to me as well, but it does seem a bit unfair to me as a wizard. That much is unfair; you can cast and move, as long as the spell doesn't require a full round to cast. And there's little reason to houserule that in. Frankly, I think your DM is just inexperienced, and is suffering from control issues. He thinks he knows better than WotC what's "balanced" and "right", so he changes things to fit. Despite the fact that he's being inconsistent; charging 40k gold for what I assume was a +2 stat item, and then still letting you get Cure Light wands dirt cheap isn't being consistent. I can handle expensive-magic worlds, as long as they're consistent. My current campaign world, for instance, doesn't have magic shops. The closest we've found is a magic school which has some items they'll sell to the mage, but pretty much nothing of interest to anyone else. We might be able to commission work, but that takes time and the quests we have don't allow us to wait; we're currently investigating a swamp temple to track down some bandits, and my character's full plate is still being worked on back in town. And that's non-magical full plate. Consistency = good. Changing things because you're an inexperienced control freak = bad.
PhaedrusXY 12-11-04, 11:47 PM	Edit: Bah, I type too slow. (And I was looking up stuff to make sure I got it right, hehe.) You should be able to move your speed and cast a spell in 1 round. But, if you do both, you cannot take a 5-foot step afterwards unless you have the Spring Attack feat. Spring Attack only works for melee attacks. You can't use it with spellcasting or ranged attacks at all. For the stat item: Were you wanting to buy a Tome that increases your stat inherently, or a magic item that you wear that gives your stat a boost while you're wearing it? The Tomes are about 27,500 gold per point of stat boost. The items you wear are alot cheaper, as D_Martin pointed out. And as far as casting and moving, you can do this with spells that have a casting time of "a standard action". However some spells, such as all of the Summon Monster spells, have a casting time of one full round. If you were casting one of these latter ones, then your DM is basically doing it right. It takes up your entire round to cast one of those types of spells, and it only "goes off" at the beginning of your next round. Alternatively, you can break up casting a full-round casting type spell into partial actions like so: move + begin casting one round, then finish casting the second round and still have a partial action left for the second round (move or cast, not both). That may be what he was doing. For the spell costs: most scrolls of 1st level spells only cost 25 gp, but a scroll of identify costs 125 gp. 2nd level scrolls are typically 150 gold each. Tack on the cost of scribing these scrolls into your spellbook, which is 100 gold per page (spells take up 1 page per spell level). So in all: Scribing costs 600 gold, scroll costs 450 gold. So yeah, he was a bit steep on that, but not alot. That is the normal price though, not a "discounted" one. There is no such thing, under 3.0 or 3.5 rules, as a "partial attack". There is a partial action, which can be used as either an either a single attack or to move up to your normal movement rate (30ft. for a human without magic). If he's letting people move AND make multiple attacks, he's screwing up there. There are only a very few ways to do that, and all involve magic or prestige classes that specifically grant the "Pounce" ability.
Afarian 12-11-04, 11:47 PM	Moving (running) 30 feet (10 meters if you use the metric system) and slashing with a weapon doesn't take more than 6 seconds. Which is what the round-time is. Is your DM aware of each round being 6 seconds, or does he think it is shorter? The treasure you have seems pretty normal and fairly in line with the suggested amounts. However, with spell scrolls and other magic items costing 10 times what they're supposed to, you're severely undercompensated. Do the PCs get 10x rates when they sell magic items? Well, a few rubies sold for 1,600 and a giant gem or something sold for about 2,400 But basically TOTAL from LOOT and QUESTS (between 7 people) our characters have about 2,500-3,000 gold a piece and one magic Item (and maybe a magic weapon). Some magic weapons were found and the Barbarian bought a frost sword for about 2,400 but other then that anything a mage could use have been severly limitied. SO I'm lvl 4, Been playing for about 4-5 months and I would probably have a little over 3,000 gold (if I had never spent any) and one Bracer of Defense +2. I also wanted an item or spell to protect my alignment because.... I died, Got rezzed by the Devil to spy on the other PC's (didn't lose exp, though--or at least he didn't say I did) and went from CG To LE after the fact. Basically I didn't know it at the time but afterwards the Dm told me. That's no big, but the DM Told me NOT To tell any of the other Characters or Players. Yet he won't let me get an item or spell that would make my alignment undectable because it's VERY EXPENSIVE!! Yet the spell, protect alignment cost 50gp!!
PhaedrusXY 12-11-04, 11:54 PM	Yet the spell, protect alignment cost 50gp!!What are you talking about? The "Protection from Good" spells, and the other ones like it, don't make your alignment undetectable at all. They have nothing to do with that. The lowest level spell that masks your alignment that I can think of is Undetectable Alignment, but that isn't on the wizard list at all. The cheapest magic item you could possibly get made with it would be made by a 3rd level cleric. It would cost (at the least): 3x2x1800/5=2160 gold. And that's if the DM is being lenient and even allows it. That item would cast the spell once per day (it lasts 24 hours), and it would be capable of being dispelled. I suggest you study the rules some more. Almost all of the basic ones can be found online at: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35
Afarian 12-11-04, 11:59 PM	Edit: Bah, I type too slow. (And I was looking up stuff to make sure I got it right, hehe.) Spring Attack only works for melee attacks. You can't use it with spellcasting or ranged attacks at all. For the stat item: Were you wanting to buy a Tome that increases your stat inherently, or a magic item that you wear that gives your stat a boost while you're wearing it? The Tomes are about 27,500 gold per point of stat boost. The items you wear are alot cheaper, as D_Martin pointed out. And as far as casting and moving, you can do this with spells that have a casting time of "a standard action". However some spells, such as all of the Summon Monster spells, have a casting time of one full round. If you were casting one of these latter ones, then your DM is basically doing it right. It takes up your entire round to cast one of those types of spells, and it only "goes off" at the beginning of your next round. Alternatively, you can break up casting a full-round casting type spell into partial actions like so: move + begin casting one round, then finish casting the second round and still have a partial action left for the second round (move or cast, not both). That may be what he was doing. For the spell costs: most scrolls of 1st level spells only cost 25 gp, but a scroll of identify costs 125 gp. 2nd level scrolls are typically 150 gold each. Tack on the cost of scribing these scrolls into your spellbook, which is 100 gold per page (spells take up 1 page per spell level). So in all: Scribing costs 600 gold, scroll costs 450 gold. So yeah, he was a bit steep on that, but not alot. That is the normal price though, not a "discounted" one. There is no such thing, under 3.0 or 3.5 rules, as a "partial attack". There is a partial action, which can be used as either an either a single attack or to move up to your normal movement rate (30ft. for a human without magic). If he's letting people move AND make multiple attacks, he's screwing up there. There are only a very few ways to do that, and all involve magic or prestige classes that specifically grant the "Pounce" ability. The first time I bought two lvl spells it cost me 250 a piece and I think that included scribing! This time I tried to make it clear that I JUST wanted scrolls and the price was going to be 7,000 until I went to the temple of my goddess! Then it was 1350 but I should double check to see if that is after scribing or not. ( I would honestly rather do it myself) As for a partial Attack I meant to say that IF you have Mutiple attack you can perform ONE of them AFTER a Half MOVE i.e. 15 feet for most with a base speed of 30 feet. If move 30 feet then I don't believe you can attack if you only have one attack. And I Was only buying the ITEM that increased it when you wore the ITEM, not the Tomes--Apparently the Tomes are still regular price but the Temp items are 10x the price.
Afarian 12-12-04, 12:04 AM	What are you talking about? The "Protection from Good" spells, and the other ones like it, don't make your alignment undetectable at all. They have nothing to do with that. The lowest level spell that masks your alignment that I can think of is Undetectable Alignment, but that isn't on the wizard list at all. The cheapest magic item you could possibly get made with it would be made by a 3rd level cleric. It would cost (at the least): 3x2x1800/5=2160 gold. And that's if the DM is being lenient and even allows it. That item would cast the spell once per day (it lasts 24 hours), and it would be capable of being dispelled. I suggest you study the rules some more. Almost all of the basic ones can be found online at: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35 Yes I did mean the Undectable alignment--Sorry. And I do know most of his rules are WRONG because I have read through the combat section of the PHB! I just want to see how unfair/unreasonable someone outside my campaign would think they were and I WISH there was something I could do about it but I seem to be the only one who cares. I'm definelty going to keep a close eye on enemy spellcasters to make sure they follow the same rules though. Thanks for the link though, I'm sure I still have a lot of rules yet to learn. OH yeah and I would like to know HOW Do you make multple quotes or split up on large post into multiple quotes SO I don't have to make a new reply for every post!
PhaedrusXY 12-12-04, 12:10 AM	The first time I bought two lvl spells it cost me 250 a piece and I think that included scribing! This time I tried to make it clear that I JUST wanted scrolls and the price was going to be 7,000 until I went to the temple of my goddess! Then it was 1350 but I should double check to see if that is after scribing or not. ( I would honestly rather do it myself) "Doing it yourself" has nothing to do with it. You always "do it yourself". The cost is for special inks and rare materials (or whatever).As for a partial Attack I meant to say that IF you have Mutiple attack you can perform ONE of them AFTER a Half MOVE i.e. 15 feet for most with a base speed of 30 feet. If move 30 feet then I don't believe you can attack if you only have one attack.Normally you can move up to your normal movement and make ONE attack. You can only make multiple attacks with the Full Attack action, which normally restricts your movement to only a 5 foot step. And I Was only buying the ITEM that increased it when you wore the ITEM, not the Tomes--Apparently the Tomes are still regular price but the Temp items are 10x the price. And yeah, I think your DMs prices are unreasonable for magic items and scrolls from the way it sounds. But as others have pointed out, in some campaigns you can't even buy magic items at all, as they are deemed "too rare". You have to basically find everything or make it yourself. So really, this is up to the DM totally. Ideally he should be consistent, but even if he isn't, it could just reflect differences in market price from one place to another. (or he could say that if questioned about it, lol)
Afarian 12-12-04, 12:18 AM	Right. A Move action lets you move your full move. 30 feet for a Human. And you can only make one attack in an Attack action, which is a standard action. If you make a Full Attack, a full-round action and the only way to make more than one attack, you can move no more than a single 5 foot step. Actually When I say Partial move I mean 1/2 your regular move. SO you CANNOT move 30 feet and attack, You can move 15 feet and attack. I'm actually not 100% sure on how he does melee attack/ranged attacks, they seem to change a bit every session. I just want to be able to MOVE 30 feet AND CAST and have the spell resolve in one round (unless it states otherwise). For instance Move 30 and cast Melf's acid arrow or Cast invisibilty AND move 30ft. Right now I think I'm just going to have to live with it unless you guys can just think of a nice way to bring it up without making me look like a ***** (since I've objected to his rules about 2-3 times) or without making the DM sound like he doesn't know what he's doing (not sure how much he's Dm'ed but I'm pretty much a newbie when it comes to D&D) Anyways, I appreciate the advice and I'm glad people see things as being unfair--I just hope I can think of a way to resolve things or find a second group where I can play by the Standard rules and don't get charged out the ass for lvl 1 and 2 spells.
Afarian 12-12-04, 04:06 PM	OK, Anyways now that I've confirmed that his alterations of standard rules is unreasonable I would,nt mind having some advice. 1. How severe are these changes and how do you think they will affect gameplay in the future? So far we've been getting by fighting what are IMO fairly challenging CR monsters. But again I haven't had much experience with any other D&D games. 2. Should I live with these rules or try to present reasons as to why it's flawed and will cause serious balance issues? I already alerted him to the fact that his combat rules are a lot different and of course he knows the rules but thinks that 6 seconds is simply not enough time to perform and move and an attack/spell. I almost want to prove it by measuring out a 30feet line, moving on it and pretending to attack something or casting a spell while someone times me for 6 sec. Even if I can't do it The PC's should since most have better then average stats and I would probably have 10's if I were a character. 3. Regarding Spells I really don't know how I'm going to be able to afford them when I get to higher levels and they actually DO cost a decent amount of gold. I doubt I'll be able to get half the spells I want/need not to mention any other nice items (even minor items) that most people take for granted in the standard campaign. Of course it could be that he just doesn't like me... The halfdemon/elf gets extra Innate abilities like the ability to cast darkness in 10ft areas of Darkness 3x a day and the ability to fly (with her devil wings) The Psion is saying that the DM may let him become blind and and as a result get 3-4 extra free feats. (one of course being blind-fighting) Most other people seem to be able to purchase magical weapons at a decent price. I'm the only one, aside from the druid who has to worry about purchasing spells. 4. So basically I don't want to be a pain in the ass whiner but I wan't make the DM see how things are unbalanced.
SiruisBlack 12-12-04, 04:50 PM	I will be the first to say that I like playing by the rules because they are standard that everyone can follow and prevents arguments such as this. I don't see a whole lot wrong with what is going on with movement and attacks. The treasure and buying I think should be adjusted. If a price is increased or decreased it should be because of supply and demand, depending on the area. A 10% rule is a good idea to go. If you don't like the DM then so somewhere else. I think that you should read the Players Handbook and the Dungeon Masters Guide first before you "go off" or question you DM further.
Thorak 12-12-04, 05:05 PM	Actually When I say Partial move I mean 1/2 your regular move. SO you CANNOT move 30 feet and attack, You can move 15 feet and attack. I'm actually not 100% sure on how he does melee attack/ranged attacks, they seem to change a bit every session. I just want to be able to MOVE 30 feet AND CAST and have the spell resolve in one round (unless it states otherwise). For instance Move 30 and cast Melf's acid arrow or Cast invisibilty AND move 30ft. And I'm saying that's not how the system works, and your DM is either incompetent, or is houseruling that way for some reason. By the RAW, you can move 30 feet and cast (assuming you have a 30 base move, no encumbrance or armor penalties, etc.) Right now I think I'm just going to have to live with it unless you guys can just think of a nice way to bring it up without making me look like a ***** (since I've objected to his rules about 2-3 times) or without making the DM sound like he doesn't know what he's doing (not sure how much he's Dm'ed but I'm pretty much a newbie when it comes to D&D) Anyways, I appreciate the advice and I'm glad people see things as being unfair--I just hope I can think of a way to resolve things or find a second group where I can play by the Standard rules and don't get charged out the ass for lvl 1 and 2 spells. An easy way to do it would be to flip through your PHB, and then say with a meaningful tone; "Huh. Look at that." Then look at your DM. Say "Did you houserule that I can't take a full move and cast in one round for some reason? The PHB says I can do both." He'll either admit he's an idiot, enlighten you as to the houserule, or throw a hissy fit that you questioned his authority because he has a mental age of 2.
D_Martin 12-12-04, 05:15 PM	1. How severe are these changes and how do you think they will affect gameplay in the future? So far we've been getting by fighting what are IMO fairly challenging CR monsters. But again I haven't had much experience with any other D&D games. I'd say his alterations will make you more and more angry the longer it goes on since you have seen the responses to this thread! 2. Should I live with these rules or try to present reasons as to why it's flawed and will cause serious balance issues? I already alerted him to the fact that his combat rules are a lot different and of course he knows the rules but thinks that 6 seconds is simply not enough time to perform and move and an attack/spell. I almost want to prove it by measuring out a 30feet line, moving on it and pretending to attack something or casting a spell while someone times me for 6 sec. Even if I can't do it The PC's should since most have better then average stats and I would probably have 10's if I were a character. You need to inform him that he is WRONG! There has been years of playtesting in the rules now and they are fair and balanced as far as PC actions in a round goes. He is handcuffing the PC's and especially the spellcasters. If I were you, I wouldn't play because I would spend too much time arguing rules and everyone would be miserable. It is supposed to be a fun activity, not an endless argument. The more you play and the more he skews the rules, the more :censored: you will get. Because of this you will not enjoy it. I say find something else to do, another game, or run one yourself. If you run a game invite everyone, and play it the way the rules are set. Chances are the players will enjoy it more than the other game and he will see the rules are fine without him changing them. 3. Regarding Spells I really don't know how I'm going to be able to afford them when I get to higher levels and they actually DO cost a decent amount of gold. I doubt I'll be able to get half the spells I want/need not to mention any other nice items (even minor items) that most people take for granted in the standard campaign. Of course it could be that he just doesn't like me... The halfdemon/elf gets extra Innate abilities like the ability to cast darkness in 10ft areas of Darkness 3x a day and the ability to fly (with her devil wings) The Psion is saying that the DM may let him become blind and and as a result get 3-4 extra free feats. (one of course being blind-fighting) Most other people seem to be able to purchase magical weapons at a decent price. I'm the only one, aside from the druid who has to worry about purchasing spells. You won't be able to afford spell at the rate he is charging. your treasure that you are collecting is just about right on. But if he is charging 2x the price for stuff(or much more), then that is another unbalancing issue. He allowed you to become a halfdemon :mymy: ! From that and the Psion, It appears he made some mistakes and is overcharging your PC to make up for his errors. :banghead: 4. So basically I don't want to be a pain in the ass whiner but I wan't make the DM see how things are unbalanced. Do yourself a favor ...walk away! Or start your own.
ganda1f 12-12-04, 08:46 PM	A. Nuetered in Combat. Apparently being able to Move, Take a Standard Action and/or a 5 step is just humanly impossible unless your the Flash 1. So basically Melee/range combat can do a partial move then attack or make a move then partial attack(which basically means if you have mutiple attacks you can attack once if you do a full move 2. If your a spellcaster you have 2 choices, you can NOT MOVE and cast a spell that goes off that turn OR you can do a PARTIAL move and cast but the spell will go off before your round on the next turn--which means you could get the highest inititave one round and the lowest the second round ( I can foresee a few problems with that) Although this is slightly more restrictive than the standard rules allow, as long as it's also applied to NPC's I don't see the issue. B. Underpaid 1. This is the part I'm really not sure about since I've never really got treasure from another DM prior to this, but basically this is the loot we've obtained so far Quest 1 (when we were all level 1) 10plat Quest 2 500 gold and a minor magic/wondrous item (not sure what our limitations were but I think anything that added +2 to a stat was too powerful After exploring a huge dungeon (took about 5-6 sessions to get through) and fighting Fire Newts,Salamanders, Dragonkin, Etten, Takassi (or some stout demonic dude) Draegloth and numerous other creatures with probably similiar CR's we basically ended up with 2,000 gold between the 7 of us (originally 8-9 but 2 Pc's killed themselves) resulting from selling some large gems at about 4,800 gp for both and some Ruby statuettes and rubies at about 1600 a piece (or something like that) Also the Barbarian got some half-plate +1 or something like that and a few magic weapons like a sling Doesn't sound too bad until I decide to go buy some spells. This doesn't sound too low an amount of treasure. Most games I've played would have similar amounts being dispensed. C. Overcharged 1. First thing I wanted to get was something to boost my Dex or Int a little bit I thought I remembered the prices for the minor stat boosting Items being about 2,000 so I thought perhaps I could go get one of those--How much were they? 40,000!!! That's right, BECAUSE They raise your STATS! That's obviously way to powerful for any lvl 4 character to have access to. Something that hides your alignment? Really expensive!! Way too much for someone with about 2,500 gold So finally I go to get some spells from the temple Mystra (which is the goddess I worship) He told me this would be the cheapest place to get spells so I decided to get the following Grease, Identify, Web and Mirror Image. So how much did I pay for these? 1,350! But Hell, that's definelty a discount compared to the standard price of 7,000 If magic is rare in your world setting - which it sounds like it is - then that could work in your favour if you are a spellcaster. The more expensive and harder it is to get magic, the more valuable and powerful your knowledge of magic becomes. Others above have pointed out that some of the rules differ from what you find in the PHB - and that if you find the changes unbearable you should leave. However, as a caveat I would say that as long as the restrictions the DM has applied to you *also* apply to the NPC's you encounter, all is well.
Cold Napalm 12-12-04, 09:07 PM	Umm he's in FR...not a low level magic world... Second since the party is getting magic items already...even a +2 magic items...once again not a low level magic world. The trouble is that the DM isn't being consistent with a low level magic world, he's basically going well...yeah I don't like that item or that class ability so I'm gonna nerf it...and not tell the players that I am doing so. The DM needs to tell the players ALL his house rules upfront so they can either go okay or shove it I'm gonna find me a sane DM.
Nom 12-12-04, 09:57 PM	1. How severe are these changes and how do you think they will affect gameplay in the future?The changes to the action rules will serve to slow down tactical resolution and make it less dynamic. More 'stand and roll until someone runs out of hp' and less 'try interesting manoeuvres to gain a tactical advantage'. 2. Should I live with these rules or try to present reasons as to why it's flawed and will cause serious balance issues? I already alerted him to the fact that his combat rules are a lot different and of course he knows the rules but thinks that 6 seconds is simply not enough time to perform and move and an attack/spell.Ah, "realism"! D&D is not a simulation, it's a relative abstract system for heroic fantasy action resolution. The rules are designed to be playable, not to accurately model 'reality' (not sure how one accurately models 'fantastic' stuff anyway). House-ruling for 'realism' is almost invariably a bad idea. If you're going to house rule, the first thing to understand is how the system currently 'plays out' (it's current 'feel'). The second is to understand the 'feel' you want. Then alter the rules to achieve the goal. "I think sorcerers are too limited in their skills, so I'm going to give all sorcerers 3 skill points per level." is an example of good thinking. You have an explicit issue stated in terms of game mechanics, and a precise fix also stated in terms of game mechanics. Likewise, "I think sneak attack full attacks are dominating my game, so I'm going to restrict them to one sneak attack per round." is good houserule thinking. I think it's a bad rule, and you should look to your tactics for a fix, but the thinking is sound. However, "Anyone should be able to critical, so I'll let all classes sneak attack." is bad thinking. You haven't stated the problem in terms of game mechanics, nor considered how it will affect them. Rather, you have changed the rules simply because you have decided how reality should be modelled without considering why the game does what it does. Your DM seems to be making this latter mistake - deciding what the rules should be based on how he thinks they should model reality rather than what works for the game. Pricing for learning spells is also a concern. The wizard has a huge range, but is penalised for this by limited access. No other class has an economic mechanism for limiting spell selection. Thus, changing the economics penalises the wizard. Items are a different matter. It is awkward but consistent to simply apply a multiplier to all magic costs. Beware of applying it piecemeal, however, without a really good understanding of the system. Basically, if you can't explain why your change is good for game balance, or at the very least how it will affect game balance, you shouldn't be changing it.
e-z0r 12-12-04, 10:48 PM	So this fellow says it's humanly impossible to move and cast spells. ........ I didn't actually know that it's humanly possible to cast spells. Unless you think David Copperfield is for real. In which case spells cost thousands of gp and you have to have some busty chick standing next to you and you need to have Perma-Smile™ on to be able to cast anything.
FreeTheSlaves 12-13-04, 03:02 AM	You need to only read the PHB and worry about playing your character while your DM has clearly not read the DMG. Once he has read the DMG cover to cover he shouldn't make so many mistakes but you'll need to go easy on him. You may have developed an antagonistic relationship which is poisonous in this hobbie. Oh, another thing - a rookie DM should keep houserules to a minimum - they "fix" problems that don't exist. If in doubt use the rules as written rather than houserules.
Naeron 12-13-04, 07:06 AM	SO I'm lvl 4, Been playing for about 4-5 months and I would probably have a little over 3,000 gold (if I had never spent any) and one Bracer of Defense +2. So your PC is level 4 with somewhere between 6 and 9 thousand xp and has a 4000gp magic item and has earned 3000gp of other treasure. That is about exactly right for your level. Yes your DM is getting the rules wrong for spellcasting and may be making some mistakes with melee (but if you move more than 5ft you cannot make a full-attack by the rules). His prices for low level spells to be placed in your spellbook are, however, far too high and a +2 stat item (not one that provides an inherent bonus) is accurately priced at 4,000gp as the book says.
Afarian 12-13-04, 08:33 PM	You need to inform him that he is WRONG! There has been years of playtesting in the rules now and they are fair and balanced as far as PC actions in a round goes. If I were you, I wouldn't play because I would spend too much time arguing rules and everyone would be miserable.. Basically that's already been happening a bit. I've been there, done that and maybe I've done it too much. You won't be able to afford spell at the rate he is charging. your treasure that you are collecting is just about right on. But if he is charging 2x the price for stuff(or much more), then that is another unbalancing issue. He allowed you to become a halfdemon :mymy: ! From that and the Psion, It appears he made some mistakes and is overcharging your PC to make up forhis errors. :banghead: Actually it's the Sorceress who's half-devil and has those abilities not me. I think I'll try to accept and play by his rules and maybe roleplay my character to negotiate the prices down. I've actually talked to my friends and they think I might have pyssed the DM off a bit. So I'm thinking I'll just let it go and maybe try to use the high prices to my advantage and Scroll some spells in my downtime and sell them for hopefully a similiar price to what I'm being charged. I might walk away if I find another good campaign but, I REALLY like this one because all my friends are in it and aside from these rules the DM is running a good campaign, IMHO. Also were basically all new to the game so it's kind of nice to learn together instead of looking like a complete idiot in front of more experienced players. In any Case I appreciate Everyone's suggestions!!
e-z0r 12-13-04, 09:54 PM	Good choice. Besides, what items and how many of them you carry doesn't really matter as long as the enemies are balanced accordingly. I wouldn't much care if I were lvl 20 and was still using +1 breastplates and masterwork longswords, just as long as the enemies weren't too hard for the group in general. Because, as you know, the items are there to help your characters combat the stronger enemies. If the enemies aren't stronger, you don't really need the items either. 'cept if they're just cool.
D_Martin 12-14-04, 01:39 AM	Good luck, I hope it all works out!
ATI_Rage 12-15-04, 02:06 AM	You're getting wanked by your DM. Most likely your DM just needs to read his DM book. I would suggest just kindly talking to him about it. After 7 encounters, you should have more loot than that. Especially more loot if things cost so much. But you get those healing wands...which are really good.
trapspringer 12-17-04, 05:33 PM	He's new. How long has he been DMing? Advise him to put the campaign on break for a week and READ. Christmas is here, so he should have some time to study his books. Then, advise him to run a 2 game series of core-only, no house rules, level 3 dungeon crawl. Suggest that he run it using those nifty random treasure tables in the DMG. Once he has played a couple of basic games using the rules, and both he and his players get a feel for the basics and game balance, things should start to level out. If not, I suggest you DM a little. Perhaps if you run a good game he will become enlightened. Or you will. Either way, some one should learn something somewhere. I wouldn't play with this guy.