Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ImABanana 08-13-07, 01:50 AM	Normally players might like this situation, but its rather annoying here. A player was killed by a vampire's energy drain and we took a vote and decided to bury him and have him come back as a vampire spawn. Although they have a lot of advantages, they have a lot of disadvantages too. However, the DM never enforces any of these! He took Sunlight Endurance and the DM just lets him walk in the light. Its rare that an NPC has a magic or silver weapon, so he generally has his DR. He had ranks in swim so water doesn't effect him. Basically, hes been given all of the good things without disadvantages. Its incredibly broken, and it means that in battles, the enemies are either way too weak for him, or just right for him but impossibly hard for all of us. What should I do about this?
Eikre 08-13-07, 02:25 AM	Well. First of all, Vampire Spawn is a specific creature, and not a template. They have 4 hitdice. Now, if you come back as one of them, there are only a few legal possibilities. One, is that you revert immediately to the CR 4 creature. No class levels. Seeing as the off-the-shelf creature doesn't have a level in "Warrior" or "Commoner," I think there's a very good case for this. If you're fighting vampires, this would be a... Large blow to his power. In either case, you have to account for the extra hitdice in some way. The middle-of-the-ground solution is to eliminate the last 4 character levels that the newly born spawn took, and replace them with Vampire Spawn levels. The more forgiving way is to give him four levels for free... In which case, he has a terrible EXP deficiency and basically doesn't get to level up, at all, for four levels. ...But before you start playing pages of rules, haven't you talked to your DM?
Roog 08-13-07, 02:40 AM	Normally players might like this situation, but its rather annoying here. A player was killed by a vampire's energy drain and we took a vote and decided to bury him and have him come back as a vampire spawn. Although they have a lot of advantages, they have a lot of disadvantages too. However, the DM never enforces any of these! He took Sunlight Endurance and the DM just lets him walk in the light. Its rare that an NPC has a magic or silver weapon, so he generally has his DR. He had ranks in swim so water doesn't effect him. Basically, hes been given all of the good things without disadvantages. Its incredibly broken, and it means that in battles, the enemies are either way too weak for him, or just right for him but impossibly hard for all of us. What should I do about this? If the player with the vampire spawn PC complains to the GM about being too powerful, the GM will probably be more likely to listen to him than he would to anyone else who complains.
Kouk 08-13-07, 06:36 AM	Careful what you wish for huh? More info please. Levels/alignments/party make-up. Firstly, as has been mentioned, there is no "Vampire Spawn" template in core. There is a Vampire Spawn class in Libris Mortis. If you become a Vampire Spawn, you would effectively be forced to start leveling up in "Vampire Spawn". The mechanic is, when you die and come back as an Undead, you lose the last "normal" class level you took, and must replace it with the first level of the Undead class. You then "grow into" being the Undead. This maintains party balance (usually). So, if someone is going to be an undead, you should have or get the Libris Mortis. Remove his last level, and start him down the path of Vampire Spawn. (Note: if blood drained as a 5th level or higher character, you are supposed to take the Vampire template, but that can be unbalancing with the automatic +8 LA). That character would then have to progress through all 8 levels of the Vampire Spawn "class" before he could take class levels again. Using the Libris Mortis system, the player would only start with Blood Drain and some bonus feats/skill bonuses. He would have to go through all 8 levels to get the DR. If you don't use the Libris Mortis system of Undead class systems, I have no idea how your campaign is handling this, which is why more info is needed.
ImABanana 08-13-07, 05:55 PM	First of all, yes, it is the one from Libris Mortis. I messed up when I said damage reduction, I mean his natural armor. The fact that he gets natural armor unbalances it because the enemies have to be stronger to be able to hit him. The DM doesn't make him level in Vampire Spawn, he allows him to choose whether to put a level in Vampire Spawn or Druid.
Eikre 08-13-07, 07:13 PM	Are you kidding? He's splitting druid levels to gain a max of 3 LA and 4 HD? There are two possibilities here: One is that you DM, and possibly your entre group, has no bloody idea what they're doing in regards to this whole spawn thing. The other is that you're kneejerking and have a terrible judge of balance. At two levels of Vampire spawn- That's 1 HD and 1 LA, meaning he only gets the skillpoints and hp from one level even though he's down two- He gets +1 natural armor. +1. That's it. One ******* point of armor. He would have to go to levels 4 and 7 in the class to get it any higher, and then it only gets up by +3 total. This is all balenced by the fact that he has a class that meshes terribly with Spawn; he gets Druid Spellcasting, which becomes bad if he takes anything besides Druid, an Animal Companion, which becomes bad if he takes anything other than druid, and Wildshape, which becomes bad if he takes anything other than druid. And the STR and DEX bonuses from being Spawn don't stack with the physical ability scores from Wildshape. Now, here's the deal. You posts are sparse and offer us very little information. So. How many Druid levels does this guy have? How many levels has he give up to Vampire Spawn? To confirm, what are the abilities you've seen him use? What level is the rest of the party?
Ze_Mighty_Vegetable 08-14-07, 01:01 AM	The best advice I can give you is either to talk to your DM or talk to the problem player. Make him understand that even though he probably think is PC's way cool, he is making the gasme less fun for you. Be sure not to come across as judgemental about him (the player, not the PC), otherwise, you'll put him in the defensive (or the DM will feel he has to defend the other player). Remember that D&D is a game. The purpose of a game is to have fun. If a single PC lessen your fun, you (as a person) have to deal with it. Make sure he understand thet is PC is overpowered compared to the rest of the party. Just saying he's overpowered is akin to saying he's a munchkin, wich will put him on the defensive and won't help at all.
ImABanana 08-14-07, 02:51 AM	Are you kidding? He's splitting druid levels to gain a max of 3 LA and 4 HD? There are two possibilities here: One is that you DM, and possibly your entre group, has no bloody idea what they're doing in regards to this whole spawn thing. The other is that you're kneejerking and have a terrible judge of balance. At two levels of Vampire spawn- That's 1 HD and 1 LA, meaning he only gets the skillpoints and hp from one level even though he's down two- He gets +1 natural armor. +1. That's it. One ******* point of armor. He would have to go to levels 4 and 7 in the class to get it any higher, and then it only gets up by +3 total. This is all balenced by the fact that he has a class that meshes terribly with Spawn; he gets Druid Spellcasting, which becomes bad if he takes anything besides Druid, an Animal Companion, which becomes bad if he takes anything other than druid, and Wildshape, which becomes bad if he takes anything other than druid. And the STR and DEX bonuses from being Spawn don't stack with the physical ability scores from Wildshape. Now, here's the deal. You posts are sparse and offer us very little information. So. How many Druid levels does this guy have? How many levels has he give up to Vampire Spawn? To confirm, what are the abilities you've seen him use? What level is the rest of the party? Ok, First of all, this IS what I'm talking about. Normally all of this would be incredibly contradicting and annoying to the player, but the DM is adapting everything to help him(giving him different druid spells to go along with the vampire spawn) He is now level 8, the rest of the party levels are level 7. So, because the DM is so lenient, rather than giving us a CR 7 enemy, he'll give us a CR 10 enemy, because the vampire spawn has little trouble taking that down, but its hard for us.
Kouk 08-14-07, 09:38 AM	Ok, First of all, this IS what I'm talking about. Normally all of this would be incredibly contradicting and annoying to the player, but the DM is adapting everything to help him(giving him different druid spells to go along with the vampire spawn) He is now level 8, the rest of the party levels are level 7. So, because the DM is so lenient, rather than giving us a CR 7 enemy, he'll give us a CR 10 enemy, because the vampire spawn has little trouble taking that down, but its hard for us. Well, you still forgot to mention what levels in the specific classes this character has, as well as the abilities he has. Any levels he has in Vampire Spawn should be nearly a waste for him. 1 HD every two levels, a max BAB of +2 at 8th level, 4 skill points every other level, and a few ability points and special abilities here or there. The Undead traits sort of make it balanced as a class, but the loss of casting and Druid abilities will hurt. If the rules are being followed at all, the bonus Natural Armor will have practically no effect on his armor class. Any Wildshaping will not have it carried over. What is the makeup of your party? Classes etc. Druids by themselves can often be powerhouses that make other classes look bad. I think you should determine which parts are from being a Druid and which parts are from him being Undead. The best thing to do is to talk with your DM and express your concerns. Don't expect him to "notice" that you are unhappy (despite being able to read emotions being a good quality in a DM, not many seem to have it). Jot down your concerns on some paper in advance so you can give examples. Do not be confrontational. If you can, read up on the rules for taking Undead classes in the Libris Mortis beforehand. The picture I get, is of a DM that is trying to help one player make the best of his bad situation (perhaps too much), but is not realizing he is bending/breaking rules that exist for balance and is not realizing that the one character is getting stronger than the rest of you. I would be interested in hearing from the DM and/or the Vampire Spawn Druid on these forums.
Drag0nUL 08-14-07, 11:37 AM	I think you might be a bit wrong here (just my personal opinion) and not the vampire spawn is disrupting your game, but the druid part. I have read the vampire spawn both int he MM and Libris Mortis and I can't say I find anything that would improve the druid much (if at all..well maybe blood drain if you are playing a grappling druid). To be honest I think that having to take levels in the vampire spawn class actually makes this character less powerful.
Aucturos 08-14-07, 12:18 PM	Its incredibly broken, and it means that in battles, the enemies are either way too weak for him, or just right for him but impossibly hard for all of us. What should I do about this? Have a nice chat with your DM. Just explain the situation, bring in the Vampire Spawn player, and figure out a way to either allow everyone to win, or get a compromise going. We can only give advice, we can't fix it for ya. :)
BW0222 08-14-07, 12:46 PM	ImABanana, It is unwritten rule (or human nature) that DMs and players tend to ignore any rule or condition which prevents participation in the game. * Players with a character unable to speak the language routinely ask questions and participate in discussions. * Players playing monsterous or evil races are rarely prevented from entering town, hunted down, hung on sight, etc. * Players playing large races are rarely excluded from going through doors ways, entering inns, meeting with the mission patron, dungeons magically become 10' wide all the time, etc. * Players with animals rarely are excluded from bringing them places. etc., etc. The reason for this is fairly simple. If you truly enforced the rules, you'd be telling a friend to go to another room for 40 minutes. D&D is a social game. It isn't fun being unable to participate. Smart DMs (and players) will realize this and not play creatures which are going to be excluded from the game. The idea that being excluded is a balancing factor for PC is completely hollow. Enforcing it gives you the joy of excluding a friend from the game. That isn't fun, so folks don't do it.
ImABanana 08-14-07, 01:38 PM	Ok, well I suppose I'll have to just talk with my DM about it, and see if he cares to balance it out. If not, eh, buy a rod of searing light and an angry lynch mob. ;)
Kouk 08-15-07, 08:08 AM	Ok, well I suppose I'll have to just talk with my DM about it, and see if he cares to balance it out. If not, eh, buy a rod of searing light and an angry lynch mob. ;) Yeah, kill him and then Resurrect him. Viola, now he is the same level as you, and not an Undead. But discuss this with everyone first.