Post/Author/DateTime	Post
dnryan 07-04-04, 04:09 AM	Ok, just got back from playing and had a HUGE disagreement with my DM. Ok im playing a 9th level Half-Elf Ranger, who is CG. We are on a mission to go into the different planes, fill orbs, and return to the regualr plane (im not really hardcore so thats why im asking and i dont know all the planes names) to give a lady the orbs filled with the elements to use to unlock other portals and thus letting us get more elements. First we entered the air plane. We saw a Belker and so i casted Protection from Elements, and said obviously air. Now in my interpretation the spell should in a sense "protect" me from the elemental until he does enough damage to make the spell (for lack of a better word) go away. Well anyways my ranger attempted to shoot the Belker and my DM said that arrows do not harm it and simply pass through it (arrows from a +5 magical mighty composite longbow +4). He said i would of hit ac wise, but that the arrow simply passes through it. So since i at the time did not have a weapon to reach him with i yelled out in Auran "Be gone! For this shall only result in your death!" Well i guess that ****** my DM off and the Belker decided i was the best target. The next round the Belker attempted to use his smoke claws attack on me. Somehow he got three of these attacks, all of which i saved. My DM however said that i did not get any attacks because i was trying to cough this thing out and prevent him from tearing me up inside. I argued that you do not lose your attack just becasue you have to save against something. My DM disagreed and said that i get no attack. I then replied that well we could all get killed easily by high level rangers that fire poison arrows at us because we would have to save against the arrows every round and never get an action. I know that my dm is doing his best to come up with campaigns and such, but it just gets fustrating when i feel that he totally ignores some core basics in the book. I just want to know for 1, would my spell work in protecting me from this Belker or actually at least absorb the damage from it since in the MM it says it is a air elemental? 2, is the DM right in saying that my bow is basically useless agaisnt air creatures? and 3, do saving throws eliminate your attacks for the round? thank you for your replies and if possible please list page numbers or gove examples or proof of were the answers lie. I have searched high and low in the mm, dm, and phb, but nowhere can i find that my dm is correct in his reasonigs. Any help is greatly appreciated. Dan
fruits and vegetables 07-04-04, 04:16 AM	What book is the Belker in? I can not say for certain but the creature may have some form of miss chance. A miss chance can avoid damage. Do you remember if your DM rolled percentile dice when you attacked. If he did then that would be a miss chance. Unless it is creature specific you should have been able to attack after the saving throw. On a successful Saving throw you can normally act normally.
mercurial67 07-04-04, 04:29 AM	You should "remind" your DM that gaseous form does not prevent attacks. The creature has DR 10/magic which would mean your attacks did full damage. Second, if you made the first save, then you did not inhale anything. If you had, a normal fort save would allow you to cough the creature out. You would not loose any actions in either case. Don't argue with your DM about it though, just tell him the facts. Tell him you would appreciate knowing any special house rules he is playing with because you may not want to play with all of them (ie either everyone agrees on what rules to play with or you don't play). The loss of an action when making a save is definately a house rule. Ask him if this is indeed the case because you may want to use the whole poison thing if so.
Veton 07-04-04, 04:34 AM	First we entered the air plane. We saw a Belker and so i casted Protection from Elements, and said obviously air. I'm pretty sure you can't protect yourself from air with PfE. 1, would my spell work in protecting me from this Belker or actually at least absorb the damage from it since in the MM it says it is a air elemental? No 2, is the DM right in saying that my bow is basically useless agaisnt air creatures? It can be in a gasaceous form spell, so the arrow just went through it. 3, do saving throws eliminate your attacks for the round? The Belkar can form a talon or claw from what you breath in of it and start hacking at your insides. However, the text does not say that you need to take up an action for the save to cough out the smoke of the Belkar that's inside you. But not for most other saves.
dnryan 07-04-04, 04:42 AM	the dm did not roll any pert. doce while i was being attacked. When i got home i remebered the whole gaseous form thing and did nopt see anywhere that my arrow would have missed. When i looked up belker the only special abilities it has is the smoke clams and somehting else, no 50% miss chance that i saw. Also my weapon may seem overpowerful but the dm said that eevryone in our group gets to pick any magic item regardless of money or whatnot, it has other enchantments on it to. But anyways, ijust wanted to make sure that i was right in thinking that u dont "normally" lose your actions for the round becasue u have to save. Also i saved everytime that he tried to get inside of me, i have a fort of 14, so ias long as i didnt role a 1 i was good to go. I even argues that it states that IF you inhale it then it begins doing damage inside and then proceed to cough it out each round thereafter. I said that to cough something out it HAS to be INSIDE of you. So since i saved and it never got inside i should have never lost an attack because i was busy trying to "cough" it out. So basically nothing happened to me but it just urkes me that i had to be the pintata for the monster as party all got xp from the encounter and i "tried to not inhale it" for 4 rounds. p.s. thanks for the spell thiong, didnt really have a complaint about that but just wanted to clear it up for future use.
Zolgar 07-04-04, 05:08 AM	So here's the skinny: First: you're DM is always right, don't argue. ;) Okay, now that the DM in me is shutting up, I'll let the rules lawyer in me start talking: Okay, let's see here: The belker does not recieve multiple 'Smoke Claws' attacks per round. Chalk one against your DM. There are 4 elements that deal damage in D&D: Electricity Fire Ice Acid And three non-attack elements: Air Earth Water Protection from elements only works against damage dealt, and so it is totally useless when cast as 'air'. you're lucky your DM didn't rule that you forced all air awaye from youself and suffocated. Chalk one against you. The Belker would have been in gasous form at the time, and if your bow is really as you say it is (way too powerfull for 9th level..) it will damage the belker no problem. Chalk 2 against your DM. The Belker's "Smoke Claws" attack states that it engulfs you and if you breath it in (fort save DC 14 not to) it starts clawing you up inside. So, that means that you're not coughing anything up, you didn't inhale it in the first place. Rgaurdless, unless stated otherwise in the books saving throws are not actions, if I get bitten by a snake, I can still smack the stupid thing, wether or not I'm trying to resist the poison. Chalk 3 against your DM.
dnryan 07-04-04, 05:27 AM	yes thank you sooo much. I figured that the air thing was wrong and once he said it doesnt work i just dropped it. As for the weapon i swear that he said thats what we get. I mean he said ANY magical item, he does not care. I could have taken ring of 3 wishes. We have 7 people in our party and i believ this is a 20th or so lvl oriented capaign for 4 characters. My bow has this- +5 magical darkwood longbow +4, enhanced with- shocking burst and distance. i was a little stunned when he said this but when i showed him my item he said it was ok. I know "the dm is always right" but the freakin thing urked the u know what out of me and disallowing me to hit was totally ridiculous. Anyways thanks for the help and support. p.s. he was giving the belker 3 attacks of smokeclaws per round.
pres_man 07-04-04, 11:12 AM	First it sounds like you and your DM need some reading to do. Now for your questions: 1. Would my spell work in protecting me from this Belker or actually at least absorb the damage from it since in the MM it says it is a air elemental? I'm not entirely sure (are you still playing 3rd edition), but an elemental is not an element. Basically humans are mostly water, if you say I protect against water, you don't protect against humans as. Same thing with the elemental. 2. Is the DM right in saying that my bow is basically useless agaisnt air creatures? Your DM is incorrect, he is trying to use logic in a D&D setting, totally useless. There is nothing in gaseous form that says that attacks made by weapons are ignored (if my group killed a vampire by grappling it long enough for it not to make it back to its coffin), only that the creature gets damage reduction 10/magic and becomes immune to poison and critical hits. So if you criticalled that would have been ignored but that is it. 3. Do saving throws eliminate your attacks for the round? Again your DM is wrong, if this was intended then the text would have said that. p.s. he was giving the belker 3 attacks of smokeclaws per round. Unless the belker had class levels then he should not have been getting more attacks despite having an increased attack bonus. Point out to your DM the monster behir who has an attack bonus of +9, yet still only gets one attack. My suggestion email the dm and show the evidence about how he was doing it wrong. Don't try to judge, just say this is what the text says. Also admit your error about the protection spell, self-deprecate and that should put him off his guard. Emails tend to be a little more sterile, so that might make him not so defensive.
shadow219 07-04-04, 04:07 PM	the only save that requires a move action that I can remember is Alchemist/getting caught on fire to put out the fire.
roguebfl 07-04-04, 04:40 PM	Originally posted by pres_man (if my group killed a vampire by grappling it long enough for it not to make it back to its coffin) you real ize the Vamp could engergy drains them? just so that would let go
pres_man 07-04-04, 05:16 PM	Originally posted by roguebfl you real ize the Vamp could engergy drains them? just so that would let go Of course under gaseous form you have: ... It can’t attack ... The subject also loses supernatural abilities while in gaseous form.
roguebfl 07-04-04, 05:39 PM	Originally posted by pres_man Of course under gaseous form you have: Oh well at least my player are so use to 2e Engergy drain they didn't even question that. being if it was corpral enough that the non gost touch weapons could hit it, it could in ther hit back.
dnryan 07-04-04, 05:58 PM	ok i notcied i forgot to mention that this is my family that i play with, not that it makes a big difference but just fillin you in. When i showed my step-dad that it does not mention anwyere that u lose your actions because of saving throws, no matter what kind. , he argues that the dm can change whatever he wants whenever. I argued back that is he was going to make this a rule then he should hav ementioned it before hand, instead of deciding thats how it is half-way throught the module. To me though saying the dm can change anything anythime also gives the dm way too much influence over the game, base off die rolls, ingenious thinking, and just plain luck. For the record my step-dad is the dm but is supporting my uncle(dm) on this one. If he is going to make it a house rule, i figure i might as well stock up on poison and such that way i can use it right back against him, saying that every time i hit him with my poison arrows he loses an attack. My thinking though is this, if he is going to play it this way, basically a saving throw for an action, then that ,means if a monster has three attacks a round that requires saving throws im dead since i only i have 2 attacks per round. Am i right in looking at it this way? To me my uncle (dm) is just ignoring a core basic rule and changing when he feels like it just cause i might have ****** him off. Every other time we have encountered something, we still proceedd to continue with our attacks normally if we saved. The thing that really pist me off was that the monster went on 26 and i went on 20 (our intiative). The belker attempted to smoke claw me and i saved, he then called 20's and asked what i was doing. I said im am trying to grab my longsword this round. He then yells out "AHAh, i caught you!" Im like wtf? He then said, " i knew you would try to cheat, i caught you!" i got so freakin mad at him calling me a cheater a huge argument insued after this. Im 18 and i have been playing for awhile so im not a little kid backtalking to a relative. I really take it personally when someone calls me a cheater at a game that i try hard to play well and fair, but when he called me a cheater that was it. Anyways i just am really upset and need to vent before we play agin on monday. Hopefully this can all be resolved peacefully but i hate it when people use the excuse "the dm is always right" on issues that are clearly not really up for changing at their own decision. Dan
Bazcasta 07-04-04, 10:15 PM	Personally I think you should look for a new group to play with. It sounds to me that while playing with this group you aren't having fun. I'm not going to be playing for I don't know how long because I'm not having fun playing with my group.
Matrixy 07-04-04, 10:50 PM	It is time for you to DM. You are coming of age, you are feeling the pain of Bad Rulings, and you feel the Need to Change. Grasp your place behind the screen. Embrace the Dark Side. Rain doom upon those who once opposed you, and you will truly be alive!
roguebfl 07-04-04, 11:01 PM	Originally posted by Matrixy Grasp your place behind the screen. Embrace the Dark Side. Rain doom upon those who once opposed you, and you will truly be alive! at let you DM have a chance to PLAY! 8)
Zolgar 07-04-04, 11:22 PM	Originally posted by roguebfl at let you DM have a chance to PLAY! 8) And don't be a jerk to him. Treat him no better than anyone else, show him you don't hold a grudge. :p
dnryan 07-05-04, 02:01 AM	ok are dm does want to play some, but no one wants to dm. i tried it for 2 modules before this and found out just how much work it really is. i tried my best but i feel the group did not enjoy our campaigns. I think that while this may be upsetting for me, the others are enjoying it so i feel kind of out of place suggesting a change. I figure might as well let someone else who can take the time and set up a good module dm instead of me. See i think the main problem is, is that most of the people in the group are still hanging on some of the principles and foundations of 1st and 2nd edition. They used to play awhile back and i took the intiative when 3.0 came out to get the group back together and start it up again. Dont get me wrong, i have soooooo much fun hanging out with family and friends and piggiong out on junk food, its just that i think im one of the only people who have read all the core books and took the initiative to buy other supporting books as well. I know for a fact that ,my step-dad and dad, amnd cousins have not read the bookms except to look up information. Anyways i guess this is more a personal problem now. thanks for all ur guys help. Dan
Matrixy 07-05-04, 02:32 AM	Hey, it's a treat to see someone posting who actually wants advice and doesn't just shoot down everything everybody says. Good show, and good luck.
trapspringer 07-05-04, 11:42 AM	Tell your DM to learn to play DnD, then go home an learn to play yourself. There is no way to run a good campaign if the DM doesn't know the rules, and the players don't have confidence in that fact.
Illithidbix 07-06-04, 12:27 PM	The DM is next to God, he dictates almost everything that what happens in the Universe, he can decide to alter dice rules/the modifiers involved. However the point of the DM is to make a fun and enjoyable game for the players, when a DM changes the rules then he should give a coherent reason for it to be changed think about how it will effect the game and how it balances up against other rules. Similarly “fudging” dice-rolls should be with the gaol in mind. For example if a Player Character died in a crappy way (as opposed to a cool and dramatic death) due to an error in judgement on the DM’s part with stating an encounter (one of the reason’s why DM’s keep their rolls hidden, so they can modify it if they need too, the other is to avoid giving metagame knowledge away). When playing RPG’s I go as far as I can with basic imagination and conceptualisation and only rely upon the rules when I am uncertain of what the outcome of an action would be. Basically the DM should change the rules in the interests of making the game more fun and coherent. For example, you’re perfectly right in saying that in most cases making a saving throw does not effect you’re next action, I would say it could depend on the circumstances.. I can see why you’re DM would say that your character , however he should also realise the in-game consequences of changing the rules in such a way, the fact that you are denied your next action despite making a saving throw makes the thing hideously powerful. Now say I was a DM and decided that when you dodge a fireball whilst standing in the open then the only way this would work conceptually is for your character to drop to the ground and lie prone, now while this makes sense when you think about it (I mean if a 20’ ball of flame appears from no-where, how do you avoid being hurt by it?) it creates a drastic effect on the game, cus now not only does fireball cause damage to people, it also removes their move-action for their next turn. This is too much a change for the game IMO and hence I wouldn’t add the rule (and just assume that everyone who makes the save drops to the ground or behind cover and jumps straight back up again, and those who don’t make the save just stand there). However, from the sounds of it your DM seems to be in competition with you, no wonder you think the DM's power is "unfair". I can’t actually see why the guy’s DMing at all really. The fun of DMing is partially inventing situations and stuff for the players to encounter and partially the simple pleasure making other people happy. If you want to Whilst the DM has the final say, and shouldn’t submit to everything a player says they should pay attention to opinions and feedback about the game. But then I've never had a Bad DM.
Phrennzy 07-06-04, 01:56 PM	Anyways i just am really upset and need to vent before we play agin on monday. So you should speak with the DM. You are 18 and this is family. Explain why you are upset and what you think about the game. Keep in mind that you know firsthand how difficult it is to be DM, and cut the guy a little slack for losing his cool and bending/breaking rules. Now, this seems to be just this one time. If it is a constant problem, then maybe you should look elsewhere to game - but it sounds as though this is an isolated incident where the DM did not follow the book. My view on the situation: The protection from elements can not be set for 'air'. It is not a choice. The only choices are: Cold, Fire, Electricity, Acid, and Sonic. The Dm should know this (and as a player, you should too) and he should have told you it wouldn't work this way, giving you the option of another action. The Belker's gaseous form has damaged resistance. A magic weapon would hit and do full damage. There may be a reason that the creature got 3 attacks - you don't know for sure. Maybe it was advanced. Whatever. Doesn't matter, just deal with the multiple attacks. Being forced to make a save does not make you lose your action. However, if you failed your first save and then had to make another save to cough the Belker out, I would rule that you spend an action doing so. As you can read from the boards, different DMs do things different. I play the way I play because I like it and my players like it. If they didn't, I would change to better accomodate their style of play. Because D&D is supposed to be fun. Talk to your DM in a mature manner. Remember it is just a game and that everyone is there to have fun. The DM is under pressure to provide a fun campaign, and sometimes we have bad nights just like everyone else.
dnryan 07-06-04, 03:13 PM	thanks guys for your help. I talked to my dm yesterday and we got it resolved. I told him that it offeded and angered me when he accused me of cheating. I told him that i thought i was to continue on with my standard actions becasue i saved, and thats they way we have always played it before. He said that he did make a mistake and when he reread it he realized i shouldnt of been denied my attacks. I also told him that i was wrong to cast the protection from elements and that he was right to not allow the use of it in the way i intended. Thanks again guys, oh and btw, i LOVE MY BOW! Ive nicknamed it shiela and jokingly asked if i could make it my second companion. he said no. oh well Thanks guys Dan
Elrana 07-07-04, 11:17 AM	Originally posted by dnryan I mean he said ANY magical item, he does not care. I could have taken ring of 3 wishes. We have 7 people in our party and i believ this is a 20th or so lvl oriented capaign for 4 characters. My bow has this- +5 magical darkwood longbow +4, enhanced with- shocking burst and distance. i was a little stunned when he said this but when i showed him my item he said it was ok. :bounce: :bounce: :love: :love: :love: :bounce: :bounce: I want your DM! I'm no powerplaying munchkin but :OMG! ! Now, I'm thinking a two bladed sword, nothing too special... One a CG intelligent wounding spell storing +3 adamantine flaming burst (Int 19, Wis 19, Cha 10, with hold person 3/day, daze monster 3/day, locate object 3/day, CMW 3/day, detect thoughts at will, fear 3/day, locate creature 3/day and the ability to cast true resurrection once a month when in pursuit of its dedicated purpose (defeating drow)) and the other a CG intelligent thundering flaming burst icy burst shocking burst +3 cold iron (Int 19, Wis 10, Cha 19, with darkness 3/day, zone of truth 3/day, major image 1/day, CMW 3/day, slow 3/day, haste 3/day, daylight 3/day and the ability to cast true resurrection once a month when in pursuit of its dedicated purpose (defending the servants and interests of Corellon Larethian)). By my calculations you are looking at 1,041,950gp worth of magic item. You then sell that to the elves, I reckon you should be able to negotiate a price above and beyond the usual 50% of market value for that one, and then bugger adventuring, just retire to a private island somewhere. Maybe work transport to the grey havens into the sale price or something. I reckon you could push the price up a little higher by replcating more of the adamantine blade's abilities in the cold iron blade but, hey, why be greedy! :D :)
Phrennzy 07-07-04, 01:53 PM	I talked to my dm yesterday and we got it resolved. That has to be the greatest post I've read on here. Good for you. And good for your uncle. Congrats on having a mature game.
Zolgar 07-07-04, 07:46 PM	Originally posted by Elrana :bounce: :bounce: :love: :love: :love: :bounce: :bounce: I want your DM! I'm no powerplaying munchkin but :OMG! ! Now, I'm thinking a two bladed sword, nothing too special... One a CG intelligent wounding spell storing +3 adamantine flaming burst (Int 19, Wis 19, Cha 10, with hold person 3/day, daze monster 3/day, locate object 3/day, CMW 3/day, detect thoughts at will, fear 3/day, locate creature 3/day and the ability to cast true resurrection once a month when in pursuit of its dedicated purpose (defeating drow)) and the other a CG intelligent thundering flaming burst icy burst shocking burst +3 cold iron (Int 19, Wis 10, Cha 19, with darkness 3/day, zone of truth 3/day, major image 1/day, CMW 3/day, slow 3/day, haste 3/day, daylight 3/day and the ability to cast true resurrection once a month when in pursuit of its dedicated purpose (defending the servants and interests of Corellon Larethian)). By my calculations you are looking at 1,041,950gp worth of magic item. You then sell that to the elves, I reckon you should be able to negotiate a price above and beyond the usual 50% of market value for that one, and then bugger adventuring, just retire to a private island somewhere. Maybe work transport to the grey havens into the sale price or something. I reckon you could push the price up a little higher by replcating more of the adamantine blade's abilities in the cold iron blade but, hey, why be greedy! :D :) Actualy noone in their right mind would buy that blade! that thing would have an ego of like 50ish
Simetrical 07-08-04, 12:51 AM	Similarly “fudging” dice-rolls should be with the gaol in mind. ~Illithidbix (Sorry, this is just too perfect an opportunity.) Wow, your locality must have serious anti-cheating laws!