Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jandulh 06-29-07, 04:09 PM	My DM let me have IMP natural attack, and now after me doing decent damage, he bemoans the feat being illegal. The DM stated that my lvl 6 2d6 dmg is as high as my Unarmed strike dmg will go. I would like to clarify why it's a legal feat AND that I should still be allow to progess (now being on the unarmed strike progression of a Large monk via Imp Nat Attack). He agreed to it, now I need to coddle him into understanding why it is so. He won't read the unarmed strike articles on wizards. So, aside from the web articles on unarmed strike, what's a player to say to quell the constant bickering?
philipk 06-29-07, 04:24 PM	My DM let me have IMP natural attack, and now after me doing decent damage, he bemoans the feat being illegal. The DM stated that my lvl 6 2d6 dmg is as high as my Unarmed strike dmg will go. I would like to clarify why it's a legal feat AND that I should still be allow to progess (now being on the unarmed strike progression of a Large monk via Imp Nat Attack). He agreed to it, now I need to coddle him into understanding why it is so. He won't read the unarmed strike articles on wizards. So, aside from the web articles on unarmed strike, what's a player to say to quell the constant bickering? from the SRD. A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.
OravennasBrother 06-29-07, 04:37 PM	So, aside from the web articles on unarmed strike, what's a player to say to quell the constant bickering? "You're right I shouldn't take that feat."
Psychoticpsymon 06-29-07, 05:11 PM	from the SRD. Wait PhillipK, you can take, like, Weapon Focus(Unarmed Strike)? LOL!
windscar18 06-29-07, 05:36 PM	Wait PhillipK, you can take, like, Weapon Focus(Unarmed Strike)? LOL! O_O? You didn't know that?
Psychoticpsymon 06-29-07, 05:55 PM	O_O? You didn't know that? :( Do i lose teh dnds?
otakutaylor 06-29-07, 05:56 PM	Unless i'm mistaken, Superior Unarmed Strike from Tome of Battle: book of the nine swords does about the same thing as Improved Natural attack (not sure if it's the exact same though) so if he just wants another feat somewhere else in the book, that'll do it. Then again, I'd take both the feats, for some super unarmed damage. hehe.
Comus 06-29-07, 06:20 PM	Unless I'm mistaken, it's specifically mentioned in the FAQ that a Monk can take INA just fine. Also, otakutaylor - No. Superior Unarmed Strike does not work that way.
Jagyr Ebonwood 06-29-07, 06:34 PM	:( Do i lose teh dnds? Yes. Sorry. I have to confiscate your Player's Handbook now. Don't worry, maybe they'll still let you D&D Minis if you ask nice. To the OP: Remind him that monsters can take the feat too. Most DMs will allow things as long as the PCs and Bad Guys are on even ground.
Zarith 06-29-07, 06:45 PM	Unless I'm mistaken, it's specifically mentioned in the FAQ that a Monk can take INA just fine. Yes, from the FAQ - Can a monk take Improved Natural Attack (Monster Manual, page 304) to improve his unarmed strike? Yes. As stated on page 41 of the Player’s Handbook, a monk’s unarmed strike “is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either” which includes feats such as Improved Natural Attack. Barring multiclassing, the earliest a monk could take this feat would be at 6th level (due to the base attack bonus prerequisite), at which point her unarmed strike damage would improve from 1d8 to 2d6 (which represents an average increase of +2.5 points of damage). The same monk at 20th level would deal 4d8 points of damage with her unarmed strike..
ravenshrike 06-29-07, 11:49 PM	Taking superior unarmed strike treats your monk level as four higher, so it stacks with imp natural attack. Or rather, imp. natural attack stacks with it as you would apply sup. unarmed strike first.
WolfHati 06-30-07, 02:16 AM	I personally do not let monks take improved unarmed strike, but that is a house ruling. It simply is not what the feat is supposed to be for, and is overpowered on monks considering that I let them enchant gloves or fistwraps for use in unarmed fighting. I would say if your DM doesn't want you to take imp natural attack: monk strike, don't harass too much about it.
kelvinaw273 06-30-07, 03:03 AM	It's legal, but your DM hasn't figured yet that your awful BAB means that many creatures you do the damage to kill you have trouble actually hitting. Also bear in mind that at higher level fighters will get a large slice of their attack and damage bonus from magic weapon bonuses, the monk won't, and at lower level they get it from strength which is not likely to be your best stat (OK, you can take weapon finesse, but that doesn't up the damage and its another feat taken). So yeah ... show him the thread, try and keep the feat, and be ready to really start to lose out once high AC monsters with DR start swamping you.
bobothechimp 06-30-07, 03:07 AM	I personally do not let monks take improved unarmed strike, but that is a house ruling. It simply is not what the feat is supposed to be for, and is overpowered on monks considering that I let them enchant gloves or fistwraps for use in unarmed fighting. I would say if your DM doesn't want you to take imp natural attack: monk strike, don't harass too much about it. I know, where do monks get off, trying to take improved unarmed strike! They should do nonlethal damage and provoke AoOs with every attack!
calronmoonflower 06-30-07, 03:12 AM	It's legal and not overpowering. A barbarian can get a great sword at 1st level and it deals 2d6 damage and has a better threat range.
Yokomohoyo 06-30-07, 03:26 AM	Tell your DM that you'll gladly trade in you IMP. NAT. ATTACK for VOW OF POVERTY if that will stop the bickering... hehehehe
Potato Weasel 06-30-07, 08:36 AM	The faq states that you can take it, and its a recommended feat for a monk in the players handbook 2.
Ecalsneerg 06-30-07, 09:01 AM	Don't take it, but ask if you can rebuild due to losing a feat. If he agrees, just go all power-gaming. Or point out nothing stops him giving it to every monster the party fights.
Da_Butcher 06-30-07, 10:48 AM	You know I showed him the web stuff last Thursday. Even Read it out loud to him. Did he complain again? Or are you just looking for fodder so that you might start a rebellion. Party wrecker. I want my wujen friend back, Yoko!
Kouk 06-30-07, 11:13 AM	It isn't "illegal", depending on your exact interpretation of the rules (is a feat a spell or effect?). The DM is well within his rights to disallow anything he damn well pleases by the way, especially if he doesn't consider Monks in his campaign to be able to do that kind of damage. If you were counting on taking this all along, then you should ask if you can retrain or make a new character, but if he isn't even willing to research the subject I don't think you will change his mind. Superior Unarmed Strike (ToB) is a feat that is clearly for players, no doubt about it, though it only increases your Unarmed Strike damage by 4 levels, which is quite a bit less than a higher level Imp. Natural Attack. Also subject to interpretation, it doesn't stack with a Monk's Belt, which you probably will want to get at some point anyway. If you are willing to wait for it, there is I believe a Martial Arts Style in the OA book, which eventually grants you the equivalent of Imp. Natural Attack once you master the style.
Eater_Of_Souls 06-30-07, 11:23 AM	Well technically nothing stops from taking the feat, you should just point out the DM he might just roll max HP for the monsters and so forth if he feels that you do too good a damage for hes liking and nothing stops from beefing monsters with extra feats or just starting to use monsters feats more actively (as most GM in general avoid using every single feat as fine tuning the encounters a bit). Edit: I might add that allthough 2d6 at level 6 is a lot of damage I don't think its nothing that a GM couldn't handle by just beefing encounters abit, this ofc depends also from your party as setup.
Radijs 06-30-07, 11:43 AM	2d6 is on average 7 damage, At lvl 6, that aint much compared to your run of the mill barbarian who can get a magical greatsword, better BAB, strength and he can power attack more effectively.
Kouk 06-30-07, 12:04 PM	2d6 is on average 7 damage, At lvl 6, that aint much compared to your run of the mill barbarian who can get a magical greatsword, better BAB, strength and he can power attack more effectively. You are assuming a Monk with 10 STR and no other abilities that help him do damage. Maybe a "run-of-the-mill" Monk compared to a "run-of-the-mill" Barbarian would be easily weaker but... What if the Monk had a 16 STR, Imp. Natural Attack, Fiery Fists, Superior Unarmed Strike and then Improved Grapple or Improved Trip? That would be 2d6 for Improved Natural, 4 levels higher would be 2d8 for Superior Unarmed Strike, then you could use Fiery Fists for another 1d6 per fist, and a +3 STR per hit. If you Flurry that it is only 3 less BAB than the Barbarian. To compensate for your lower BAB, you can start a Trip with a touch attack, get a free attack when your opponent goes down and hit him with his -4 AC (now you have a better chance to hit) with your remaining attacks. Alternately, start a Grapple with him, which is also started with a touch attack, and then while you Grapple him continue to do Unarmed Strike damage of 2d8+3 + 1d6 fire with no penalties while your opponent can't really do anything except try to escape. And you have Evasion, +20 feet movement (10 more than the Barbarian), the best saves, and Slow Fall (hehe, Slow Fall...). Even if the Barbarian rages for the extra Str, you still have a great chance of holding him in that Grapple, and he can't attack except with light weapons which he can't Power Attack with. But that's neither here nor there... Edit: You could also hold off on Superior Unarmed and just get the Monk's Belt, then you have another feat to play with.
chuff80 06-30-07, 12:24 PM	I allow INA in my campaign, and what people are saying about the extra damage at higher levels is totally true. The monk was a damage machine at lvls 1 - 6 or so, but at lvl 8 and 9, the warblade and fighter are outdoing her pretty easily, not to mention hitting more often. Good thing she's a sacred fist and can cast spells too. :)
Fuzzly 06-30-07, 12:26 PM	Some questions from a newbie who loves his monk. What does Imp.Natural attack do exactly? From what the OP said, does it make you attack (with natural weapons) as if you were one size category larger? What effect does a Monk Belt have? Besides keeping up his pants? Also, unrelated, but what effects does Vow of Poverty have? Someone mentioned it while I was making my monk w/ the DM, and he flat out said "no."
Radijs 06-30-07, 01:44 PM	Correct on the INA feat. And the monks belt makes you count as a monk 5 levels higher for both AC and unarmed strike. VoP means you forego all wealth, donating your treasure to charity and recieving a lot of supernatural abilities in place. Its in the book of Exalted deeds.
Fuzzly 06-30-07, 02:19 PM	Thank you.
RoamingArcher 06-30-07, 04:50 PM	VoP means you forego all wealth, donating your treasure to charity and recieving a lot of supernatural abilities in place. Its in the book of Exalted cheese. Fixed.
Radijs 06-30-07, 05:32 PM	... Again its implied that the Vow of Poverty is broken. Its not as long as the DM and the PC's know what they are doing. The only ones breaking the thing are druids since the bonuses of the feat work in wildshape. Though money can buy that too.
ravenshrike 07-01-07, 09:09 PM	You are assuming a Monk with 10 STR and no other abilities that help him do damage. Maybe a "run-of-the-mill" Monk compared to a "run-of-the-mill" Barbarian would be easily weaker but... What if the Monk had a 16 STR, Imp. Natural Attack, Fiery Fists, Superior Unarmed Strike and then Improved Grapple or Improved Trip? That would be 2d6 for Improved Natural, 4 levels higher would be 2d8 for Superior Unarmed Strike, then you could use Fiery Fists for another 1d6 per fist, and a +3 STR per hit. If you Flurry that it is only 3 less BAB than the Barbarian. To compensate for your lower BAB, you can start a Trip with a touch attack, get a free attack when your opponent goes down and hit him with his -4 AC (now you have a better chance to hit) with your remaining attacks. Alternately, start a Grapple with him, which is also started with a touch attack, and then while you Grapple him continue to do Unarmed Strike damage of 2d8+3 + 1d6 fire with no penalties while your opponent can't really do anything except try to escape. And you have Evasion, +20 feet movement (10 more than the Barbarian), the best saves, and Slow Fall (hehe, Slow Fall...). Even if the Barbarian rages for the extra Str, you still have a great chance of holding him in that Grapple, and he can't attack except with light weapons which he can't Power Attack with. But that's neither here nor there... Edit: You could also hold off on Superior Unarmed and just get the Monk's Belt, then you have another feat to play with. Barb with 18(assuiming primary stat and no magic) str(+4) pre rage, greatsword, 2d6 + additional 2 from str, Power attack, Leap attack, shock trooper and skill focus(basket weaving). So, you have a +15 to attack, and you can PA for +9, shock trooper converts the - to BAB to AC. Leap attack makes PA *3 instead of *2. So, 9(from STR at 22) + 27 + 2d6 avg. 6.5. So 42 damage or so. More if instead of SF(basket weaving we take powerful charge but I don't know the exact amount of damage) all at a +17 AB at level 9.
Vaelan 07-01-07, 11:01 PM	Here's how it works. He posts here stating his concerns, we show him that his concerns aren't particularly valid, he changes his mind. This could also all go through you if he doesn't care to post. Or he can just be a stubborn, unreasonable ass and we will have succeeded in showing you that he isn't worth playing with.
Kradlo 07-02-07, 10:48 AM	When talking to your GM, always be calm and reasonable. Remind him that what's good for the goose is good for the gander, so if he wants monsters or NPC monks with the same feat, it's fair game for all. It's a good feat, but it only applies if you hit your opponent. Feats that improve your attack bonus tend to have more effect on combat than do those that improve damage.
Jandulh 07-02-07, 12:54 PM	thanks so much for the responses, especially posting the FAQ answer from wizards.com. Someone did stat that the feats in the MM are only for monsters... but hey elves are in that book and my guy is an elf.
Ecalsneerg 07-02-07, 01:35 PM	Someone did stat that the feats in the MM are only for monsters... Au contrare, for with the magic of the core prestige class, I will prove it not so! http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/dragonDisciple.htm#clawsandBite Specifically: The Multiattack feat reduces this penalty to only -2. Therefore, the core rules encourage a PC taking a MM feat :P
amethal 07-02-07, 05:04 PM	thanks so much for the responses, especially posting the FAQ answer from wizards.com. Someone did stat that the feats in the MM are only for monsters... but hey elves are in that book and my guy is an elf.So only monsters can craft constructs? Whether a monk can actually take improved natural attack or not is a very in depth rules question. Personally I don't think they can, based on an extremely long and tedious thread over at EnWorld which had plenty of people coming down on either side of the argument. So, the FAQ says you can, most people don't think its unbalanced, ask your DM to please allow it.
calronmoonflower 07-03-07, 03:02 AM	Improved Natural Attack was reprinted in the Eberron Campaign Setting so it is allowed to PCs to take even if the Monster Manuel is declared off-limits.
Eater_Of_Souls 07-03-07, 03:08 AM	Multi-attack works only with 3 or more appendixes just to correct that and replaces 2-weapon combat for mosters.
esteigs 07-23-07, 04:35 PM	Unless i'm mistaken, Superior Unarmed Strike from Tome of Battle: book of the nine swords does about the same thing as Improved Natural attack (not sure if it's the exact same though) so if he just wants another feat somewhere else in the book, that'll do it. Then again, I'd take both the feats, for some super unarmed damage. hehe. it makes you deal damage as a monk of 4 lvls higher. couple that with a monks belt, which deals as if 5 lvls higher, you get total pwnage. I dont see why people would ever, ever complain about monks being underpowered.
bhu 07-23-07, 05:00 PM	Of course if you wanted to be evil you could take Improved Natural Attack and the Decisive Strike from Players Handbook 2 (give up flurry of blows, and if you take a -2 to hit do double damage). One of our current players is doing this as a Thri Kreen Monk/Psychic Warior. It's quite sick...
Malchius 07-23-07, 05:07 PM	IF either of you have Dragon Magic look for the Fanged Ring which grants Imp Unarmed and Imp Natural Attack(unarmed) justification enough.
Priest_of_Doom 07-23-07, 05:28 PM	Well, it looks like you might have your DM on the technicalities here... per the monk "unarmed strike" description: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm#unarmedStrike) "A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons." Or do you? Is a feat an "effect" ? I tend to think that passage is meant to let monks benefit from magic weapon spells &ct. Now, with that said, I thought for a moment about saying, if one of my players wanted to take this feat combination, I might prohibit it just based on it being unbalancing. But then I looked at what it would actually do for a monk. At 10th level a monk's unarmed strike does 2d8 points of damage (average 9 pts). This feat would raise that damage to 4d6 (average 14 points). Is it unbalancing? The change is significant, but ultimately does not do that much more damage than a flaming greatsword, and equal to the damage to an unholy greatsword or a scorching ray. So, personally, I'd probably allow it. Though that player would lose a lot of esteem in my eyes for obviously callously powergaming. Beyond that, with DMing being so much work as it is, I'd fully support your DM disallowing this combination. When players seek out unbalancing combinations the DM ends up having to do more work to continue to provide appropriately challenging encounters. Additionally, when one player is powergaming, it steals the spotlight from your fellow players. Of course, some games are all about powergaming, and that's OK too, as long as everyone is having fun :) So, that's my 2cp.
DMMcSmartypants 07-23-07, 05:32 PM	Tangent- Here is the thing about INA that my group just discovered. In the PHII it is listed as the H feat in the premade quick character section which would imply that it can betaken at 1st lvl however the prereq is BA +4. Is this just an error? One of our players has been using it since 1st lvl because he took it right out of the PHII. On topic- It is perfectly legal once you have a BAB +4... I think.
nekoryuu 07-23-07, 05:43 PM	Though that player would lose a lot of esteem in my eyes for obviously callously powergaming. That's not powergaming, that's trying to keep up with the other melee characters. Powergaming is playing a Planar Shepard.
Jungingen 07-23-07, 06:53 PM	The "powergaming" thing irritates me. First off, anyone who is taking more than a couple of levels in Monk is probably not a "callous powergamer," and secondly, if you DO happen to be playing a Monk who devotes himself to martial pursuits, you're going to spend a great, great deal of time on perfecting your ability to crush all who oppose you. Just because something is effective or even optimal does not mean that it is out of character or "meta." A personal and professional desire to achieve perfect form is a sign of dedication, not munchkinism. If you were a professional warrior and spent most of your time locked in brutal combat, wouldn't you strive to end the struggle before you or one of your allies suffers a mortal wound?