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| Femur Toothpick02-23-04, 02:20 PM | What do I do when my DM is changing his dice rolls? It's one thing when it's done to save a player. It's also understandable to some extent in order to play out a story the way that's intended. I DM too and do this occasionally for what I think are the right reasons. But when it's done repeatedly by a DM who also does it as a character, it's just not right. I was upset almost to the point of leaving my game last night when my DM did this to me -- again. We cant see his rolls since he's behind the screen of course, but he was repeatedly making extremely lucky rolls. He has always done this as DM and character. Here was last night's situation. We raided a room full of Drow. My monk tumbled through the fighter line to get to the drow wizard. I hit and tried to stun with a DC 16. The 5th level Drow wizard made the roll without a problem (+1 Fort and minus 2 Con for being elf) -- lucky roll. After finishing off the wizard by other means I proceeded to go after the female cleric that was hiding in the shadows previously. She made her saves vs stunning pretty easilly too (more understandable than the mage). After a couple rounds, I could see she was trying to escape and I tried to trip her. I had 3 attacks since I was hasted and hit all 3 times. With my buffed strenth and Impr. Trip, I landed a pretty solid 26 on one of my 3 attempts. She avoided it as well as the other 2 trips without a problem and proceeded to take a 5' step and Dimension Door out. How could a female drow cleric have beat that 26? I confronted him about it and he just said that she was really buffed. Maybe if she rolled a 20 and was buffed to the extreme! But if a 20 was rolled in that circumstance, I would think he'd have shown a little excitement about the roll. He showed no emotion, just stating that she beat it. I usually play a spellcaster in our games, but against this particular DM I chose to play something more melee oriented so he wouldn't get too many counter rolls, such as saves. I get frustrated with him every time he DMs because of his "lucky" rolls. I've been tired of it for a while and try confronting him only to get the rest of the party mad at me. We actually started up a smaller group without him a couple years back and this dice fudging was a big reason for it in my mind. We recently invited him back since we all like him as a person, and now he just picked up DMing again for a few months. (We rotate our DMs between party members) Has anyone had similar issues and is there any advice out there. I don't know what to do anymore. |
| Nick Soapdish02-23-04, 02:40 PM | Not sure what sort of advice to give, although if he's fudging rolls as a player that's a big no-no. When I DM, I usually don't fudge rolls, except to save players (and not even always then), although I allow myself some exceptions for dramatic license. It is possible that he's just getting lucky. I can roll exceptionally well as a DM, but just average as a player. (I suspect that I just get more lucky runs as a DM because I do it so much more, but it does seem odd.) I mean, the DM shouldn't be necessarily taking sides, so he shouldn't be cheering when his NPCs prevail against the PCs. It does seem awfully suspicious though and I wish that I had some sort of solution for you. How'd the cleric D-Door anyway? Travel domain? |
| Cog02-23-04, 04:02 PM | My current DM consistently fudges his rolls, and it is really irritating myself and 2 other players (the 4th doesn't really care). Our attitude is that the current campaign is almost over, and then I DM. We are going to find excuses somewhere down the line to avoid having him DM.... It's so bad that I'm determined to roll openly, and the players will have to deal with it, but at least they will know it's the luck of the dice, and not me... |
| Femur Toothpick02-23-04, 04:17 PM | I have no hard proof that he actually changes them. I just don't see anyone else on a regular basis rolling like him. It's always in crucial times too and with certain individuals. When he's a player he rolls and quickly picks up his dice. I give him crap about it then too. His own brother plays with us and says he cheats too. I try to ignore it when he's DM, but last night it just got under my skin one to many times. During that combat, the cleric summoned a large spider. Following my failed 3 trip attempts (and me going off on the DM about his cheating), the spider jumped me and missed. I have Defensive Throw and got a free trip against it. I tripped it with ease! A fellow player that was trying to calm me down said, "look, he didn't win that time". Him not winning showed me that I'm right. How could I trip a large, 8-legged creature so easilly compaired to that cleric. Luck? I don't think so. And this is just one of many examples. Dimension Door was something she had in an item. He seemed to create it out of thin air of course, but I don't have much of an issue with that actually. What kills me is that I'm spending my time fighting these untouchables while my party's getting nailed by their spells, as well as the other baddies. Why doesn't he just mark the ones that he likes with a big "U" on their forehead so we know that no matter what we do we won't be able to effect them. Then I wouldn't waste my time. I've considered suggesting that everyone roll combat openly, including DM. I just worry about what that might do to group relations. We haven't really talked about this issue openly. |
| Heron_Marked_Blade02-23-04, 04:26 PM | Originally posted by Cog It's so bad that I'm determined to roll openly, and the players will have to deal with it, but at least they will know it's the luck of the dice, and not me... That's what I do. It's been really bad for the players a couple of times, but it's been really bad for me (read, the NPCs) as well. It was tough when I rolled three 20s in a row with a longbow against the fighter, though. I still roll secretly for things like Hide checks and opposed checks that the PCs don't know about. They're used to me rolling suddenly and cackling like a fiend. Freaks them out, sometimes. ;) Femur Toothpick, I'd suggest talking to the DM/player about it. Or you could just grit your teeth and hang on until he's finished DMing. When he plays in your campaign, require that you see the roll in order for it to count. None of this: *rolling in the corner while you deal with the cleric's turn* "Ooh, I just rolled a 36 on a critical threat, confirmed with a natural 20, and dealt 86 points of damage including power attack! Did I kill it?" Insist that you see the result of the die roll or else it doesn't count. The same for skill checks. It really won't slow the game down, since he's the only one you'll be watching. |
| Brillock of Ithicus02-23-04, 05:47 PM | it was a cleric... so no arcane mage armor. so no arcane sheild. (im not sure about this all but i believe to the best of my knowledge thats what it is..) and to trip attack is a unarmed melee TOUCH attack so granted no amount of armor will help her here... yeah id say your dm fudged his rolls... you had a 26 meaning if the drow had a Dexterity bonus of + 17 then she would have made it. if perhaps she had a ring of deflection or something... perhaps she has ranks in monk... seeing as you got something that makes you hasted id assume your mid level somewhere right... it could be possible... but your DM sounds like a rat, smells like a rat, and looks like a rat... he's probably a rat. I got the same problem with a paladin in our group he tips the dice once in a while, or meta games and player knowledges his way into fights... the other night he decided that because there was combat going on in my obscuring mist, that he'd run into combat right infront of me to fight off the soon to advance monsters. Which he only knew where there because a little boy told him that "something was coming" the boy never mentioned direction. But anyways, i being the smart wizard triggered an action to cast burning hands the moment I see something infront of me. Well sure enough I did, it was my ally, good ridence I say, he decided to jump infront of my burning hands... and got a little roasted. Later that dungeon crawl we ( me and a fighter friend, not thepaladin ) went off to check out one room and wanted the paladin to gaurd the hallway. Me and this fighter got into a serious fight , fighting a lion,(the rooms where about 4 rooms away from each other) but the entire time combat started, this paladin kept coming up with meta gaming reasons to go investigate what was happening with us. The DM never gave him listen rolls... so in game he should know that nothing was wrong... unless he heard something massively unpleasent... he should have just gaurded that hallway... then again it was his character he can do what he wants with it... But the one time he leaves his spot , and comes to help us, is when something is going to get the drop on us... i can just see it now... But anyways, we decided as a group that the next time we catch him tip his dice were going to call him on it, and make him feel it.. afterall he is playing a paladin that in its own right, to cheat on your rolls.. is evil? or dang near close to it. but i feel your pain... you have the DM who is ALWAYS right... PSpppt that is the most broken rule in the game. have at it- |
| Femur Toothpick02-23-04, 06:06 PM | Originally posted by Brillock of Ithicus you had a 26 meaning if the drow had a Dexterity bonus of + 17 then she would have made it. I appreciate the response, but just to clarify: I mentioned already that I hit with all 3 of my attempts to trip. He can't fudge my dice and her Touch Att. AC wasn't that strong. It was in the opposed rolls that the cleric beat me, which was done behind the screen. I rolled a 17 +4 Improv.Trip +5 STR = 26 for my check. If she had a 22 in DEX or STR and rolled a nat. 20 she'd have tied me. I can't see a cleric having either of those abilities that high in our campaign. When I confronted him, he responded that she was well buffed. This was strange too, since as far as I know, she didn't have much time to prepair before we rushed in. |
| Harmor02-23-04, 06:43 PM | Everytime time (I'm not kidding), I have an argument or disagree with the DM the next attack from a monster is a critical hit. Additionally, he sometimes doesn't even roll. He used to just use a list of "pregenerated" numbers that he would just mark off on a sheet...but people got upset. Another one of my GMs, he's great, rolls the dice in front of you. There's no question when you get criticaled by a Ogre Barbarian, raging, using a +1 flaming greatsword, power attacking for 5 and hitting you for 62 points of damage. |
| Gandilas02-23-04, 07:38 PM | As a DM, I roll in the open just to prevent any issues of "fudging". On occaision though, I'm rolling "hot" and the players really have no choice but to wince and take it. If I rolled behind the screen, I could soften some of my lucky streaks. |
| LordHell02-23-04, 08:57 PM | I fudge below a certian level to keep the players alive, and get the campaign rolling. They do not know this though, which is the important part. However, sounds like your DM is wants to DM to win :/ He probably doesn't want your characters to kill his carefully planned encounter as easily as you do. He shouldn't really do this, the game isn't the DM vs the players. I don't think you should roll the dice in the open however, it can really spoil the suspence of a situation (spot checks etc). The players tend to metagame think when they see you rolling the dice for "no reason", they start to know the AC of monsters, saving throws, and start to pre-determine their actions based on metagame knowledge. |
| saankiip02-24-04, 01:43 AM | It is quite possible that your GM fudged the dice rolls. I, as a GM, fudge dice (like my fellow GMs, mostly to save PCs or to make the game a little more cinematic), but try not to let it bug you so much. I personally hate it when I know people are cheating, but can a GM really cheat? He is there to make the game fun (which he is maybe not doing, at least for you) and as a result maybe he has to fudge dice rolls. Maybe the cleric was an important part of the game, and he needed her later in the campaign. I know how you feel, I really do, but you really need to get past it or get a new GM/group. How does the rest of his GMing compare? Is it just the dice rolling, or is it more than this? One thing I would suggest is that you don't "attack" him about it at the table when you are feeling angry. This wont work and you will probably end up alienating yourself (esp if the other players dont mind that much). I would suggest you tell your GM nicely - tell him it really annoys you and you may find he will stop it. Or you could approach him as a group (but try not to gang up on him) if the other players are annoyed as well. But make sure you do either of these things out of gaming. I hope that helps. SaanKiip |
| tate02-24-04, 02:04 AM | I agree with the previous post about not confronting your DM at the table. Just say a word or two like, "wow you must have been really lucky," or somthing cheezy like that and move on. Bur after the session, pull him aside and then question him. As a DM I hate being questioned at the table. It slows down the game and quickly takes everyone out of the rp mood. Another thing, if the most problems you have with your DM are die rolling, maybe its not a huge deal? If you still end up on top without some crazy NPC aid then maybe his fudging does make the story more exciting? Just a thought, I could be way off here because I dont know the whole situation. I have rolled in the open before too, and I dont like it. The players calculate the AC and then powerattack for less or more depending, and do different spells and such, it gets too metagame even for me. As a DM I like to challenge my players, note this does not mean I want to "win" but it means I want my players to work as a team and be creative. I know that sometimes my demands are too tough and then I fudge to make the PCs come out alive, but its subtle. But the PCs get a sense of satasfaction when I tell them that they just survived an EL 8 encounter at 5th level. They like to know that their hard work paid off, and believe me it does. Maybe your DM is doing the same? Well, this is getting long. . . all I can say is that if your DM is cheating (and he verry well may be) then ditch him. If he wants to "win" that bad have him be a player. Hopefully you can fix the situation without hard feelings, it is always a shame when a game can get people hurt. Good luck with it all. Peace. Tom |
| SmoothB02-24-04, 02:10 AM | You don't know for sure if your DM was fudging the rolls. As a PC you have no idea what equipment/spells are activated on that npc. You don't know if it is a spell the DM found on the net and thought was balanced, or even if it is from some non-WOTC source. You don't know if it is a polymorphed dragon! It could've been anything, and unless you are the DM, you have no idea what it is. This is a problem for many DM's who do a lot of non-standard things such as changing monster abilities around, using variant creatures, and so forth. Sometimes this results in players who 'know' what should've happened actually being wrong. They forget who the DM is. There are other times when the DM is just rolling lucky. Last time I played I rolled a series of dispell checks (about 6-7 rolls) where I rolled at least 4 natural 20's a few of them consecutive. My players were a little shocked at the high #'s I shot at them, but I play as the dice roll. Then later on the monsters rolled a bunch of lows. It all balances out in the long run. Just remember as a player you do not have the full picture. |
| LordHell02-24-04, 02:21 AM | The DM cannot cheat. That is a paradox. However, the DM CAN ruin the game for everyone. |
| BW022202-24-04, 02:51 AM | Femur Toothpick, IMO, it is fair to ask the DM to make rolls during combat in front of the group. However, it's a two way street... the DM can't "fudge" rolls which would kill your party. I've DMed events, critted a fellow twice, and "fudged" to die rolls to prevent instant PC deaths. The player (upset that he got hit twice in a row) demanded to see the dice rolls in the open. Two rounds later, I rolled a 19 followed by a 16 and his PC went -8 in one hit. As a DM I like the ability to "fudge" rolls to keep PCs alive at lower levels or when you realize that some big nasty has gotten lucky or isn't appropriate for the party -- a werewolf when the PCs have no silver, a wizard who takes out half the party with a colour spray, etc. In other cases, certain spot, listen, move silently, spellcraft, etc. rolls do need to be made out of sight -- or else the party sees that someone is up when they shouldn't. |
| Capn Charlie02-24-04, 03:26 AM | When I DM the rule is that I have to see the roll for it to count. Of course I can see my rolls on this side of the screen quite clearly, while the players can't... However this is mainly so I can have that Infinitely Long(tm) several second delay before letting them know what the result of the roll is. I can always tilt the screen up so they can see the roll. And sometimes I do. Fudging rolls is an powerful tool. But with great power comes great responsibility. It can't be overused. However I can only fudge my rolls. That and I can give a few extra hp to a monster, but things like AC are kind of immutable. I can give an extra magic item, but hard and fast stats are virtually impossible to alter. At least without adding in extra items, something I am loathe to do. Yes, usually a dozen or two hp, or maybe a spare potion is as far as I will go. And then only to make a fight more dramatic. Or make it some challenge, if they ae breezing through an encounter. I might also shave off a little attack or damage to prevent a TPK. But if they earn a death through stupidity I am more than willing tomete out painful death. |
| Femur Toothpick02-24-04, 10:12 AM | As a DM, I too will fudge dice on occasion to save a party member from an unlucky roll. I will also do it for story purposes on very rare & selective occasions. I will almost always do it in the party's favor though. This is a little different of a situation. As an example, his half-dragon raiding party swept through earlier in the game, knocking me to negative 8 in a couple rounds. They would have finished me off if a party member hadn't saved me. There was no dice fudging then. Before that, a group of baddies ganged up on our party rogue and took him to negative too. I don't mind that though. It adds to the realism. I was really enjoying that part of the game. But when he fudges the dice the other way, it's takes that realism back away and makes me feel cheated. It's like a ref that won't call any plays against the visiting team. Against this DM, I would rather see every roll and deal with the full wrath of the Power-Attacking, Improved-Crit-Rolling, Scythe-wielding, Fiendish Fire Giants. I would love for him to roll everything in front of me. I'm just worried about my relations with the group and the DM. I really like the guy as a person and think he's a pretty decent DM in most ways. He tells a good story and gives us some really challenging and memorable encounters. I just can't get past the dice fudging. Smooth B, Thanks for trying to get me to see the full picture. The only thing is that he's been doing this for so long and there's been too many times that luck has went his way. I just don't trust him. When you don't trust your DM, it's not a good situation. We have 4 guys that DM our group and I have no problem trusting the others, just him. |
| eudas02-24-04, 11:23 AM | Originally posted by Femur Toothpick I've considered suggesting that everyone roll combat openly, including DM. I just worry about what that might do to group relations. We haven't really talked about this issue openly. Talk about it openly. It's a Social Contract issue. However, expect for it to go poorly for you if you go in without prep work -- your other players sound like they are scared of confrontation; it's more likely than not that their emotions for the DM are stronger than their caring for his bad habit of cheating rolls. They're probably scared that it'll hurt their OOC friendship. The truth of the matter is, though, that if you don't want to play that way, then you don't want to play that way. Hiding things isn't going to make them better. This is a fundamental truth for any relationship; honest, open communication is necessary for it to flourish. If you want to be political about it, you can talk to your other players individually, and convince them to side with you when the time comes on the issue. When you have support of the majority, you and your group can approach the DM and vote to roll openly. All in all, though, I expect you'll encounter alot of flak and resistance about the issue, especially if I'm right about your co-players. IIRC, you said that the DM's brother even says he cheats, so... *shrug* You may wind up kicking him back out of the group and moving on with more mature players. Or you may wind up finding another gaming group, one which follows the rules and doesn't just make sh** up as they go along. eudas |
| Twisted Puppy02-24-04, 11:23 AM | Just to be the devil's advocate here: Sometimes, the DM needs to fudge a bit for purposes of the storyline. Maybe the cleric in this case is due to be important at some later point in a campaign? He made a mistake, put her in a situation that he shouldn't have, and had to fudge a bit to get her out. Now, as long as he awards you the experience for having defeated her (she DID have to escape, right?) nothing really bad happened other than you didn't get all the cleric's stuff, and your character (and yourself) got a bit frustrated. Now, if your DM is doing this too often, I'll agree that it could be a problem, and I understand your frustration. One thing - being poker-faced is usually an advantage to a DM. We had a new DM, running a module. There was one point where the BBEG showed up for just a moment at the beginning of the module. Our nymph cleric used her deadly beauty (not sure of the exact term, no books with me) - opened her top and said "look how pretty I am." The BBEG had to make a save, and the DM rolled - behind his screen - a "1". The look on his face and the expletive that came out of his mouth made it impossible for him to fudge the roll. I think we all, as players, would have understood had he fudged at that point, and we told him so. I roll behind or or without a screen based on the situation, and I think my players trust my judgement. I've been rolling well, and even with some fudging - in favor of the players - I managed to kill PCs in 4 of the last 6 session..:( |
| eudas02-24-04, 11:34 AM | Originally posted by Femur Toothpick I appreciate the response, but just to clarify: I mentioned already that I hit with all 3 of my attempts to trip. He can't fudge my dice and her Touch Att. AC wasn't that strong. It was in the opposed rolls that the cleric beat me, which was done behind the screen. I rolled a 17 +4 Improv.Trip +5 STR = 26 for my check. If she had a 22 in DEX or STR and rolled a nat. 20 she'd have tied me. I can't see a cleric having either of those abilities that high in our campaign. When I confronted him, he responded that she was well buffed. This was strange too, since as far as I know, she didn't have much time to prepair before we rushed in. Hmm, Drow Cleric with high STR or DEX (not unheard of), say an 18str or 18dex... Bear's Strength or Cat's Grace will give +1d4+1 to the relevant Stat, so it's theoretically possible for it to have had 22dex or 22str at the time. Rolling a natural 20 on all 3 trip attacks is still ludicrous, though. eudas |
| Femur Toothpick02-24-04, 12:04 PM | I'm not saying that what happened wasn't possible. I have no idea what he has on his stat sheets. She could have been double my level for all I know with 18s on both STR & DEX and +6 items on each as well. I don't know anything for fact, but this was just one example of something that's been going on in every game he's DMed. I'm saying it happens too often in his case to be luck. I simply don't trust him and that lack of faith is coming out in our games. Here are a few more details though. I hit her pretty easilly with touch attacks which meant that her Dex couldn't have been astronomical. I believe she was wearing full plate (or at least medium armor), also drawing the lower dex conclusion. She chose to drop her flail in order to cast at me, meaning she preferred that method over hand-to-hand, so I doubt she had a 22 or greater Str. Also, without the right domains she couldn't have cast Cat's Grace. Finally, she summoned a Large Spider to her aid. This isn't that powerful of a spell and her others weren't either, so I doubt she's much higher than my 7th level monk. Finally, she didn't need 20's on all 3 trip attempts. She needed one 20 and the others had to be in the teens somewhere. Not impossible - it just raised more doubt in my mind. |
| Ipsissimus02-24-04, 12:04 PM | Drow are dangerous people. There is a great article on rating your DM, in a Dragon Magazine published last year. I've played with a few archtypes, my favorite is the one balances creative role playing situation with simple or complex combat. Best of all, if we totally stump the DM he doesn't say...ummm, no it happens like this or "we don't choose to take the job for hire." it's not the only plot going. There's a story to unfold but it's up to us to see how much we want to be apart of it. From a players perspective, when some spells or tactics are seen to be abused or just way to effective our DM usually in very special cases creates something that will even the board alittle. This keeps things fun, less repetative, and realistic in a way. If you happen to luck out with a roll, you luck out. Our DM sometimes adds his divine intervention for plot but it has always been for the benefit of the group or the storyline. No complaints yet. From behind the screen, when one of the players crushes the opposition with repeated tactics...the enemy is going to start to learn how to get around or at least learn to resist it better. We encountered a less than human mage, we obvisously knew he had some form of Stoneskin since it was hard to see a reaction when we carved into him. After a few round we notcied a lot of spells weren't affecting him either...but when we thought all we need to do is grapple and rolled what seemed to be an unbeatable roll, even for a fighter of equal or greater level. He won. How? The DM played the enemy very well. He was prepared to meet us, but not fight us. He just wanted to get a taste, etc. So, he was buffed and much higher level than us, and our DM prepared a few items that allowed his escape. Besides, he's a wizard...he's going to have a decent intelligence. After the game was over, our mage slapped his face and our rogue rolls his eye in disgust. In the heat of the moment things to prevent the evil wizard from escape weren't thought of. The players have it written down on an index card "next time we fight so and so, remember to do dimensional anchor" the other was "Ready and action for..." Did the bad guy really beat the grapple roll? Probably not, in fact no way in hell. We're not complaining. If one of us died due to a fudge roll then there might be something said. It happens...we're still having fun. Maybe you should start interviewing for a new DM or have a night when all the players call each other and plan how to beat the "insert DM's name" rather than the "DM." It's been proven most effective, until someone capable decided to run a game. Your drow cleric just wasn't written to die yet. |
| olshanski_home02-24-04, 12:16 PM | As a DM, I never fudge dice, I roll them open. If the party short-cicruits a campaign by getting a lucky shot at a BBEG before he could escape... more power to them! I will no longer play in a game where the DM rolls behind a screen. I say "I don't care if you kill my character, I want the satisfaction of knowing that you are not fudging to save my life, and that any victory or defeats can be blamed on my own playing or luck of the dice". It sounds like you are not actually PLAYING D&D. Your DM is telling a story, and you've got to stick with it regardless of your actions. So what if you used good tactics in combat or roll well... the DM has his mind set... that cleric must escape, and nothing you do will change it. It isn't much of a game if your actions have no real consequences. Sure, you can kill a minor bad guy here and there... it is like you are rosencranz and guildenstern and the DM is Hamlet, Ophelia, Laertes, and the King. Enough ranting: A DM can always roll behind a screen for things like sense motive, hide, listen, etc... things like that I am ok with. If the DM rolled an opposed trip roll behind a screen, I would ask him not to be our DM. Players are not expected to cheat, nor should the DM. As far as keeping players alive.... frankly, if the DM had to cheat to keep me alive, I deserve to die. I don't care if the bad guy rolls critical hits on 4 consecutive rounds... after the first critical, I should seek healing, after the 2nd, I should be running away.... If I stick around for 4 critical hits, please kill my character. I will also expect that the DM will be reasonable... and not put me in a position where a character can be killed outright in a single round at lower levels (such as an Ogre vs level 1 characters, or a troll against level 3 characters). |
| Femur Toothpick02-24-04, 12:21 PM | Everyone has had some very sound and incredibly wise advice. I'm also glad to see that I'm not alone in this. I've decided to share my issues with everyone including the DM since I'm not one to sit back & take it. I'll try to do it in a way that will hopefully strengthen our group instead of tear it apart. It's a fine line though. |
| Twisted Puppy02-24-04, 02:09 PM | Originally posted by olshanski_home I will no longer play in a game where the DM rolls behind a screen. I say "I don't care if you kill my character, I want the satisfaction of knowing that you are not fudging to save my life, and that any victory or defeats can be blamed on my own playing or luck of the dice". To be the devil's advocate again: The reason you make rolls behind a screen is so that the players will not know the attack bonuses and save modifiers for npcs/critters. You don't need to know that the bugbear that just hit your AC 24 did it with a roll of 15, or that he made the save against your Hold Monster spell with a 19. If you, as a player, not having gamed with me before, were interested in joining my game, and then told me that you wouldn't if I rolled behind a screen, my reply would be: "That's fine, I'm sorry you won't be gaming with us. Have a nice day." |
| olshanski_home02-24-04, 03:01 PM | No problem, twisted puppy, I wouldn't play in your game. It is a matter of finding people you want to play with. Our time is far too valuable to spend it in a game that we aren't anxious to play. Your point about keeping monster abilities hidden from players sounds like a good use for a screen, but I do not agree that keeping save bonuses and atk bonuses hidden is such a great idea. I think that experienced adventuerers or combatants should pretty quickly be able to judge the prowess of their opponents after engaging them in combat. This is adequately reflected in seeing what the opponents roll and whether or not they scored a hit. (*counterpoint* A good DM could adequately convey this information with colorful descriptions. I sometimes don't have the time or ability to be adequately descriptive, and find it easier to let the players draw thier own conclusions... if I had to be descriptive all of the time I would be overwhelmed in a fast-paced battle. This is my own shortfall, but has nothing to do with the argument of fudging vs not-fudging) I would compare it to a professional boxer getting into the ring with an unknown opponent... after just a few seconds of sparring he will know if he is up against a novice or an experienced boxer... and after the exchange of a few blows, he might have a pretty good idea if it will be a fair fight or not. If the party you have been DMing has been encountering trolls for the last few sessions, they might have an good idea of the threat level of trolls. What if the next encounter includes a troll with 6 levels of fighter. In your description, you can say "This troll looks bigger, more self assured, etc)... but if those 6 levels of fighter are enough to kill the party, they might not know it.. they might just suspect that they are in for a slightly harder fight with a troll that has perhaps 2 extra hit dice. If you roll in the open, the players can see you are hitting on rolls of 3 and higher with a d20, and they can correctly surmise that they should run away. If you don't roll it in the open, they might think the troll is just getting a little bit lucky, and they might stick around too long... waiting for the troll's luck to run out. -------------------------------------------------------- Possible Additional Counterpoint: Then again, if you roll behind a screen, you can always fudge to save thier lives and make it a dramatic and close fight.... you don't need to worry about your characters having to make the tough decision to flee or stay. Or, if you Want them to flee, you can always kill an NPC so that they get the idea. (*this to me is very bad DMing... you should not "want" your characters to pursue any specific course of action, either fighting or fleeing... it is up to them to make thier own decisions, they are the "players" and should be in charge of thier own destiny.*) Personally, I would rather not have a DM fudge to save me, and having a DM fudge to make battles "more dramatic" is not something I m interested in experiencing as a player. I find that when the DM is rolling out in the open, and any roll could be a possible critical hit... that EVERY battle is appropriately dramatic. It is up to the players to create drama by thier playing... it is not up to the DM to manufacture drama by cheating players. If you want to keep the opponents secret, then how do you deal with players rolling thier own attack rolls? They can pretty easily extrapolate enemy AC the same way based on thier roll and you telling them whether or not it is a hit. (or does the DM make player attack rolls in secret also). If you let them roll thier attacks in the open, but keep yours hidden... why is enemy AC something that players are entitled to know, but not enemy ATK bonus? {Edit: I will add that this is my own preference... I know a lot of DMs like to keep rolls hidden. As long as the players are happy, that is all that matters... there is no inherent problem with keeping things hidden as long as all people are happy. The original poster said that he suspected the DM was fudging and he was unhappy. My post is only supporting his thoughts, in that I know how he feels, and that I feel the same, and this is how I deal with it. Edit 2: After Capn' Charlie talked about out of game knowledge creeping in... my discussion is not about out-of-game knowledge... it is about things that the characters are experiencing. When a monster swings and hits on a 4, it is like playing basketball against a professional... you can see by the way they dribble, handle the ball, and thier quickness that you are in trouble... to me this is adequately reflected by open DM rolling. There is no out-of-character knowledge.. because the Characters can all see the grace and power of thier opponent)... I don't announce out loud before the combat what the monster attack bonus is, but I roll, then I ask the players AC... and I announce whether or not it is a hit. It is up to the players to guess the approximate power of thier opponents, through trial and error.. (or, through going a few rounds and seeing what happens). |
| Capn Charlie02-24-04, 03:21 PM | Out of character knowledge creeps into the game. If the players know that an enemy has certain stats it is a serious test of will to forego that knowledge in game. I for one am fairly certain that my players, skilled as they may be, that they could not completely keep all their ooc knowledge out of the game. Perhaps you play with characters capable of knowing every twist, turn, stat, and secret in an adventure and keep it all out of the game, play everything from a purely IC standpoint. They could be content with no surprises, and purely play an adventure from the perspective of their character. They could even enjoy such a thing I guess. But I for one have players that are all too human. THey aren't professional actors. They play not to accurately portray a character and nothing else. They all too often tend to play characters much like themselves. They play for the fun of the game. It is hard to keep OOC out of the game. To expect your players to do this is really not fair. To suppress all your instincts, your intuition, your unconscious urges. To sublimate your personality so totally into another persona, this is a rare skill. A rare and wonderful skill that only the greatest of actors posess. I for one know I have not this gift. SOmetimes I have to suddenly stifle an urge to have npcs take innappropriate actions. And I am first to admit, sometimes I slip. The screen helps to hide some of my slips. It helps to keep pcs from such slips. And it preserves the mystery of the game. From a serious standpoint, who cares if Targon the fighter doesn't know what's around the corner. If Bob Smith DOES, it is hard to be surprised. To react accordingly. Targon be damned, if Bob isn't having a good time then something is wrong with the game. |
| Twisted Puppy02-24-04, 03:23 PM | If the DM does his job describing the opponents: 4 ogres wearing chain shirts, an drow elf wearing robes, bracers just visible beneath the sleeves, 2 rings on each hand (obviously two of those are simple jewelry), etc., the players will have a fair idea of how hard their opponent is to hit. Like you said, if the DM does his job with descriptions, it's not much of an issue. But the answer to why they might know the AC of the opponent is, if they make a very good swing, and it misses (actually glances off the armor), they might have an inkling that the opponent is either quicker than they thought, or that his armor is enhanced is some way. They would not know that the ogre hit them with a roll of 9 because in addition to strength 22 he has 8 levels of fighter for a vicious attack bonus, added to a magical +3 great club. For what it's worth, I usually have one of my players look at my die roll if an improbable save is made, or if there is a critical hit or a fumble. Your points are good ones, however, I for one simply wouldn't game with a DM I did not trust to roll behind a screen. And I would trust the DM - even if we had not met until I joined the game - until he gave me a reason not to. |
| olshanski_home02-24-04, 03:37 PM | It sounds like you run a good game, twisted puppy. I would not normally have such a hard-line stance about rolling in the open if I hadn't played with 2 DMs in a row that fudged to a ridiculous degree. Sure, one of the DMs is now a great player... no harm done.. (the other DM quit when we asked him to stop). If every DM I played was honest with the rolls, there wouldn't be a debate. From Femur Toothpick's initial post... there are plenty of players who have problems with DM hiding/fudging rolls... and a fairly easy solution to the problem is having the DM roll in the open. |
| Nived02-24-04, 04:19 PM | See I fudge rolls when I DM. No not to save characters, but to keep the gme going. No not railroading... The thing you have to understand is I'm cursed. No matter the game system no matter the dice I critically fail more often than not. Now I'm a good DM, or at least that what I'm told, the dice just don't cooperate. Not after the 5th time that night a badguy has managed to disemboweled himself with his own sword there comes a point when you have to fudge. |
| LordHell02-24-04, 06:28 PM | Originally posted by olshanski_home It sounds like you run a good game, twisted puppy. I would not normally have such a hard-line stance about rolling in the open if I hadn't played with 2 DMs in a row that fudged to a ridiculous degree. Sure, one of the DMs is now a great player... no harm done.. (the other DM quit when we asked him to stop). If every DM I played was honest with the rolls, there wouldn't be a debate. From Femur Toothpick's initial post... there are plenty of players who have problems with DM hiding/fudging rolls... and a fairly easy solution to the problem is having the DM roll in the open. I don't think you should let two DM's get in your way. Seriously, rolling infront of the screen really looses a lot of suspense the game can bring. Also even the best roleplayers will start to metagame think if they know the monsters are going to act before them, or if the DM suddenly "rolls" for no reason, etc. The difference between a good game of D&D and a great game of D&D is a DM who really sets the scene, and rolling dice out in the open can be really counterproductive in that respect. You want your players at the end of the session to feel like they have woken up from a dream, finished a chapter in a really engrossing book, or something along those lines. You should really try and forget about the dice, and rolling behind the screen makes you feel like your character is really doing something, rather than the dice doing things for you. It's the difference between: The Minotaur just missing you with a roll of a 16, or The Minotaur towers above you, lifting it's heavy axe above it's head, everything seems to slow down. You suddenly take in the situation so clearly, the light glinting off the minatours axe, the Minatours red firey eyes filled with hate, it's heavy labouring breath. The Axe begins to decend, and all of a sudden time speeds up rapidly. Through your quick reflexes or blind luck the axe wooshes past your head, and you catch the faint smell of dried blood as it passes you, leaving behind the dreary afterthought that it could have been your blood spilled a moment ago. You don't KNOW what it rolled, you don;t CARE, all you know is that you just about died and you've got to get the hell out of this situation. |
| Femur Toothpick02-24-04, 09:01 PM | Originally posted by LordHell You should really try and forget about the dice, and rolling behind the screen makes you feel like your character is really doing something, rather than the dice doing things for you. Normally, I would agree with this. I love to get engrossed into a game this way. It takes a really good DM to pull this off though, and 3 out of our 4 DMs aren't that good at it (myself included). I've been playing the game and DMing for over 20 years now and haven't perfected this. In it's full glory, you can feel the environment with all your senses and you role play your character a LOT. This isn't really the issue here though. The problem is that the basic physical laws of the world change with this DM. What goes for me and the party isn't necessarilly the way it works for the bad guys. I understand that my entire argument is metagaming, but I'm out of game right now. I'm frustrated with the way he handles things and I'm interested in hearing how others have handled similar situations. I wish I could just tune out the rolls behind the screen, but I just don't trust them anymore. I am personally willing to put the DMs rolls on the table and sacrifice some of the immersion in order to bring some stability back into the game. |
| flyingmoose02-24-04, 09:29 PM | It was a Shadowrun campaign (which is progressive d6s), but the principle holds. I forget the exact situation, like it was a defense roll or something, but the number to beat was 15, so you'd have to roll at least one 6 followed by another 6, followed by a 3 or better. Dumb DM: *rolls* *rolls again* "...she makes it." Player: "No. I didn't hear enough chukka-chukkas." Idiots are everywhere, Gaming included. I just avoid them whenever possible. It's funny though when a player fudges something and probabilty makes fun of them. My current weekly game, this one guy essentially picked his stats. Something like an 18, two 16s, a 15, a 13, and a 9, you know, something credible. Nearly every other player rolled as well if not better on their own stats and did so entirely honestly. My own were an 18, a 17, a 15, two 14s and a 13. |
| LordHell02-24-04, 09:32 PM | Originally posted by Femur Toothpick Normally, I would agree with this. I love to get engrossed into a game this way. It takes a really good DM to pull this off though, and 3 out of our 4 DMs aren't that good at it (myself included). I've been playing the game and DMing for over 20 years now and haven't perfected this. In it's full glory, you can feel the environment with all your senses and you role play your character a LOT. This isn't really the issue here though. The problem is that the basic physical laws of the world change with this DM. What goes for me and the party isn't necessarilly the way it works for the bad guys. I understand that my entire argument is metagaming, but I'm out of game right now. I'm frustrated with the way he handles things and I'm interested in hearing how others have handled similar situations. I wish I could just tune out the rolls behind the screen, but I just don't trust them anymore. I am personally willing to put the DMs rolls on the table and sacrifice some of the immersion in order to bring some stability back into the game. It's not really rolling behind the screen that's the problem, it's the DM. Let's think about it for a moment, if he keeps up his attitude he is simply just going to do other things that you can't stop, like add on hitpoints to the monsters, etc. I do sympathise with you however. At the end of the day, your DM is DMing for the wrong reasons. When I was 11 years old (i'm now 23) I wanted to be the DM because I wanted to be the guy with all the power, It was MY monsters vs the players. I didn't fudge the dice so the players always lost, but I'd get annoyed when they would beat my carefully planned encounters (basically designed to kill them). A few years later I learnt that being the DM isn't about You vs the Players, there are no sides. Being the DM is more akin to creating a really good pick-a-path novel where you don't win against players, but instead create a world that is believable, dynamic, and mystical. All those fantasy novels you read and wanted to join in the action? Nows your chance to write your own AND be part of it. You should point him towards this thread. |
| Remnant02-25-04, 07:13 PM | He picks up the dice as soon as they hit the table? If I'm in a bad mood, that just became a critical failure. If the player doesn't like it, they can leave. I have no use for such blatant cheating in my games. If I'm not in a bad mood, he just has to re-roll. If he has to hide his dice roll, he's cheating, end of story. There's no other reason to pick them up so quick, unless you're playing on a 60 degree incline for some reason. |
| Brillock of Ithicus02-26-04, 04:48 PM | Originally posted by LordHell It's the difference between: The Minotaur just missing you with a roll of a 16, or The Minotaur towers above you, lifting it's heavy axe above it's head, everything seems to slow down. You suddenly take in the situation so clearly, the light glinting off the minatours axe, the Minatours red firey eyes filled with hate, it's heavy labouring breath. The Axe begins to decend, and all of a sudden time speeds up rapidly. Through your quick reflexes or blind luck the axe wooshes past your head, and you catch the faint smell of dried blood as it passes you, leaving behind the dreary afterthought that it could have been your blood spilled a moment ago. You don't KNOW what it rolled, you don;t CARE, all you know is that you just about died and you've got to get the hell out of this situation. I know as a DM, to keep coming up with creative strings of words for each an every attack , can make a very short combat, turn into a very long battle. by the time you get done, its time to go home. It is a game, and has mechanics, so the way i see it, it doesn't hurt the players to see your dice rolls. you can't do both though you either sheild for the entire dming or you don't, because if you do sheild on ocasion, players will think your trying to do something evil, and unfair behind there screens. if the fights drag on, they tend to just bore the hell out of our group. but we usually do our own gabbing up the actions by using our free actions to intereact as we fight. (fighting defensivily while talking in combat to allies) " look, if you " SWOOOSH! " don't take the halfling with us " SWOOSH" im going to have to leave you guy's " THWACK" to be all by yourself " CRASH" WHOULD YOU HIT ALREADY (me to dm who is playing the orcs, i stare at the orc with a very intrigued look upon my face.) now its my turn. "take this", and " this" , and "this one is for the halfling". we tend to do that. but, latly its been a drull. gotta go. |
| LordHell02-26-04, 04:52 PM | Originally posted by Brillock of Ithicus I know as a DM, to keep coming up with creative strings of words for each an every attack , can make a very short combat, turn into a very long battle. by the time you get done, its time to go home. It is a game, and has mechanics, so the way i see it, it doesn't hurt the players to see your dice rolls. you can't do both though you either sheild for the entire dming or you don't, because if you do sheild on ocasion, players will think your trying to do something evil, and unfair behind there screens. if the fights drag on, they tend to just bore the hell out of our group. but we usually do our own gabbing up the actions by using our free actions to intereact as we fight. (fighting defensivily while talking in combat to allies) " look, if you " SWOOOSH! " don't take the halfling with us " SWOOSH" im going to have to leave you guy's " THWACK" to be all by yourself " CRASH" WHOULD YOU HIT ALREADY (me to dm who is playing the orcs, i stare at the orc with a very intrigued look upon my face.) now its my turn. "take this", and " this" , and "this one is for the halfling". we tend to do that. but, latly its been a drull. gotta go. I naturally embellished my post to put across my point. :) The less the dice are a visable part of the game, the less a game and more a good interactive story it becomes. |
| aka Jimmy02-26-04, 05:21 PM | Not to toot my own horn here, but I think any DM's who posted in this thread saying they sometimes fudge dice to "save players" should read this: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=189864 You are doing your players no favors when you fudge dice rolls, no matter what your reason may be. |
| LordHell02-26-04, 05:27 PM | Originally posted by aka Jimmy Not to toot my own horn here, but I think any DM's who posted in this thread saying they sometimes fudge dice to "save players" should read this: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=189864 You are doing your players no favors when you fudge dice rolls, no matter what your reason may be. From what I've gathered by your recent posts, you come across as a strictly by the book no matter what kind of person - anyone else is simply wrong. I think it's up to the individual DM's to decide what is best for their games, and not you. |
| aka Jimmy02-26-04, 05:30 PM | Originally posted by LordHell From what I've gathered by your recent posts, you come across as a strictly by the book no matter what kind of person - anyone else is simply wrong. I think it's up to the individual DM's to decide what is best for their games, and not you. Very well, we'll do this the hard way. Why, exactly, would it ever be a good idea for a DM to cheat? |
| aka Jimmy02-26-04, 05:31 PM | Originally posted by LordHell I naturally embellished my post to put across my point. :) The less the dice are a visable part of the game, the less a game and more a good interactive story it becomes. But the more direct control the DM has over the outcome of a game, the less an "interactive story" it becomes and the more it turns into a wanna-be fiction author without the talent to cut it in the real world forcing his friends to act out his hackneyed plot for his own amusement. |
| LordHell02-26-04, 05:31 PM | Originally posted by aka Jimmy Very well, we'll do this the hard way. Why, exactly, would it ever be a good idea for a DM to cheat? The DM cannot cheat. He can only ruin the game. |
| LordHell02-26-04, 05:33 PM | Originally posted by aka Jimmy But the more direct control the DM has over the outcome of a game, the less an "interactive story" it becomes and the more it turns into a wanna-be fiction author without the talent to cut it in the real world forcing his friends to act out his hackneyed plot for his own amusement. Fudging dice under certian circumstances for low level players hardly constitutes to that. Especially if they arn't aware of this. I'd call it "Running the Game smoothly", rather than "Running the game by the rules at all costs, even if that means extreme tedium from time to time". Some players might be interested in this. Read the first chapter of the DMG "Establishing the style of play". Some games probably don't even have dice rolls, but rather, play out as a book. There is no way you can paint the whole D&D community with your broad brush and say an absolute statement such as "Fuding the dice is always bad", when that defeats the whole purpose of the game - playing it the way your group wants to play. |
| aka Jimmy02-26-04, 05:41 PM | Originally posted by LordHell Fudging dice under certian circumstances for low level players hardly constitutes to that. Especially if they arn't aware of this. I'd call it "Running the Game smoothly", rather than "Running the game by the rules at all costs, even if that means extreme tedium from time to time". Ah, exactly. You are just confused as to cause-and-effect. It is precisely "extreme tedium" which is the inevitable result of a DM cheating on dice rolls to prevent character deaths. Players are smart, or at the very least cunning. Any attempt to alter chance in their favor over the long term will be noticed. Most of the time people don't say anything because their conscience mind is aware that this provides their character with an important advantage: they cannot die. However, at the time time this knowledge completely destroys any emotional investment they might have in the outcome of a battle. Victory has no meaning if defeat was never possible. Once your players suspect you may be "fudging", even in their favor, you have ruined the game for them. What makes combat in D&D "fun" - despite all the rather tedius record-keeping and computations - is the tension it creates. Whether or not we are willing to admit it, we have a certain emotional investment in our characters. Putting them at risk evokes an evisceral tension response. However, if we suspect - deep down - that there is in fact no risk than there can be no tension. Combat becomes mere tedium. |
| aka Jimmy02-26-04, 05:44 PM | Originally posted by LordHell Fudging dice under certian circumstances for low level players hardly constitutes to that. Especially if they arn't aware of this. I'd call it "Running the Game smoothly", rather than "Running the game by the rules at all costs, even if that means extreme tedium from time to time". Some players might be interested in this. Read the first chapter of the DMG "Establishing the style of play". Some games probably don't even have dice rolls, but rather, play out as a book. There is no way you can paint the whole D&D community with your broad brush and say an absolute statement such as "Fuding the dice is always bad", when that defeats the whole purpose of the game - playing it the way your group wants to play. But playing without dice is a perfectly valid choice. There is the understanding, up front and clearly stated, that chance is not part of this game. If you find yourself cheating on dice rolls you really should just abandon them altogether. Otherwise, you are violating the trust of the people you play with. The act of using dice is a conscience decision to let chance have a hand in the outcome of the game. If you are not willing to live with the consequences of chance, why bother lying to your players and yourself? Just ditch the dice and dont be a cheater. Edit: Imagine this situation. You are a player in a game of D&D. The DM informs you that all the players will roll dice as usual but the DM will never roll for anything. He/She will simply decide on the value for each roll that they think best fits the situation at hand. How would this make you feel? Seriously. Imagine playing in such a game. When you, as a DM, cheat this is the situation you are forcing on your players. And you are not even doing them the courtesy of telling them up front. |
| LordHell02-26-04, 05:46 PM | Originally posted by aka Jimmy Ah, exactly. You are just confused as to cause-and-effect. It is precisely "extreme tedium" which is the inevitable result of a DM cheating on dice rolls to prevent character deaths. Players are smart, or at the very least cunning. Any attempt to alter chance in their favor over the long term will be noticed. Exactly, which is why myself, and many other DM's don't do it long term, just to get our characters through those baby steps so we don't have to spend more time making characters than playing the game. So we agree then? Great. |
| aka Jimmy02-26-04, 05:50 PM | Originally posted by LordHell Exactly, which is why myself, and many other DM's don't do it long term, just to get our characters through those baby steps so we don't have to spend more time making characters than playing the game. So we agree then? Great. Well, as I explained in the post I linked to, I find that you are doing them no favors by coddling them through their "baby steps". Just start play at a higher level and stop lying to your friends. |
| LordHell02-26-04, 05:51 PM | Originally posted by aka Jimmy But playing without dice is a perfectly valid choice. There is the understanding, up front and clearly stated, that chance is not part of this game. If you find yourself cheating on dice rolls you really should just abandon them altogether. Otherwise, you are violating the trust of the people you play with. The act of using dice is a conscience decision to let chance have a hand in the outcome of the game. If you are not willing to live with the consequences of chance, why bother lying to your players and yourself? Just ditch the dice and dont be a cheater. It doesn't have to be one extreme or another, you know. Characters still die with DM's who fudge the dice, just perhaps not as often at the lower levels. It's more about making the game FUN rather than strictly sticking to the rules. The DM in the original topic was doing one extreme. Doesn't mean all DM's do it, and doesn't mean fudging the dice is always bad. Rather than "violating" you're players trust, you're just tricking them into thinking they came close to death, while keeping the game running smoothly. Again many DM's, including myself, tend not to fudge the rolls once the players can look after themselves. Have you noticed that they have changed the rules now so that characters get maximum hitpoints at first level? Ask yourself why they did this, and you might understand why some DM's fudge the rolls. |
| LordHell02-26-04, 05:52 PM | Originally posted by aka Jimmy Well, as I explained in the post I linked to, I find that you are doing them no favors by coddling them through their "baby steps". Just start play at a higher level and stop lying to your friends. LOL "lying to my friends". Why the hell should I make higher level campaigns, just because some rules laywer on the forums has a problem with dice fudging? hahaha, classic. |
| aka Jimmy02-26-04, 05:56 PM | Originally posted by LordHell LOL "lying to my friends". Why the hell should I make higher level campaigns, just because some rules laywer on the forums has a problem with dice fudging? hahaha, classic. Do I detect some guilt there? When you roll 8 damage and tell the player they took 3, what would you call that? I believe the techincal term is a "lie". Generally not considered the most noble of pastimes among civilized persons. |
| LordHell02-26-04, 05:57 PM | [QUOTE]Originally posted by aka Jimmy Have you ever actually DM'd a campaign, or are you a disgruntled player who browses these boards constantly pointing out the flaws in every DM's methods because you disagree with them? Do you have any idea how much work a DM puts into making a game that is creative and enjoyable? You realise that DM's spend, not hours, not days, but weeks, and sometimes months, on a project so it's enjoyable for the players? Also your lying argument is ridiculous. If I say to a player who goes "I search the room for traps", and I say "you find nothing", knowing this trap is way beyond the players skill and hence not rolling a dice, am I "lying to my friends"? |
| LordHell02-26-04, 05:59 PM | Originally posted by aka Jimmy Do I detect some guilt there? When you roll 8 damage and tell the player they took 3, what would you call that? I believe the techincal term is a "lie". Generally not considered the most noble of pastimes among civilized persons. Technically yes that is a "lie", but so is every time you deceive your players in a game in D&D, which happens often - dice or no dice. It hardly constitutes you are somehow morally betraying your friends, unless the game of D&D is so important to you that you compare it to real life? |
| aka Jimmy02-26-04, 06:07 PM | Originally posted by LordHell [QUOTE]Originally posted by aka Jimmy Have you ever actually DM'd a campaign, or are you a disgruntled player who browses these boards constantly pointing out the flaws in every DM's methods because you disagree with them? Do you have any idea how much work a DM puts into making a game that is creative and enjoyable? You realise that DM's spend, not hours, not days, but weeks, and sometimes months, on a project so it's enjoyable for the players? Also your lying argument is ridiculous. If I say to a player who goes "I search the room for traps", and I say "you find nothing", knowing this trap is way beyond the players skill and hence not rolling a dice, am I "lying to my friends"? Yes actually, I started DMing with the original printing of the "basic set" (note, not the "white box" original version of D&D, that was before my time) and have done so in several different editions of the basic set, 1st ed AD&D, 2nd ed AD&D, 3.0, 3.5, MERP, rollmaster, paranoia, earthdawn, mechwarrior RPG, shadowrun, alternity and a couple different games of my own design. Either you are being deliberatly obstructive or you are just plain dense. Look, the entire purpose of dice in an RPG is to introduce an element of chance. It is because the outcome is unknown that these games evoke such an emotional response from those involved. Every time you cheat on a die roll, you have a chance of being caught. Sooner or later it will happen. When it does, you have lost your power to evoke en emotional response from the rather dry and dusty process that is combat in D&D. It devolves from an exciting experience into mere tedium where the outcome is already known by everyone involved. A good DM should never know how a game is going to turn out. They are cheating themselves out of the most rewarding part of running the game and are robbing the players of their own victories. Overcoming the odds to win a tough battle has a certain satisfaction about it. Pushing around numbers knowing that the DM is going to let you win anyway is meaningless. Victory loses its flavour if you never experience defeat. |
| LordHell02-26-04, 06:11 PM | Originally posted by aka Jimmy Yes actually, I started DMing with the original printing of the "basic set" (note, not the "white box" original version of D&D, that was before my time) and have done so in several different editions of the basic set, 1st ed AD&D, 2nd ed AD&D, 3.0, 3.5, MERP, rollmaster, paranoia, earthdawn, mechwarrior RPG, shadowrun, alternity and a couple different games of my own design. Either you are being deliberatly obstructive or you are just plain dense. Look, the entire purpose of dice in an RPG is to introduce an element of chance. It is because the outcome is unknown that these games evoke such an emotional response from those involved. Every time you cheat on a die roll, you have a chance of being caught. Sooner or later it will happen. When it does, you have lost your power to evoke en emotional response from the rather dry and dusty process that is combat in D&D. It devolves from an exciting experience into mere tedium where the outcome is already known by everyone involved. A good DM should never know how a game is going to turn out. They are cheating themselves out of the most rewarding part of running the game and are robbing the players of their own victories. Overcoming the odds to win a tough battle has a certain satisfaction about it. Pushing around numbers knowing that the DM is going to let you win anyway is meaningless. Victory loses its flavour if you never experience defeat. One of my players disagrees with you. I just fired him off an email to see what he thought of the matter. Emailed by me Quick Question, what's your stance on all those low-level games we played where sometimes I'd fudge the rolls to keep you guys alive. Did you think that made the game more enjoyable, or do you feel that I should have simply let the rolls stand and kill off the whole party? Email back from Him If you are playing with a serious attitude and not beign stupid then it is better to fudge the rolls to save some trouble - it painful if your a low level and the second when you take on the second group of kobolds one critically hits you, doing max damage and kills you... If the person is taking unrealistic and unecesary risks then they should feel the consequences and get killed :) So, fudging my dice rolls according to one of my players is what they want! bzzt, sorry, take your drivel some place else. You play by the rules in your game, fine! I have no problem with that. But you can't tell me I'm "wrong" or a "crap DM" for doing something even my players agree with. Hell, that's the way D&D is meant to be played, what do you play it for? |
| Capn Charlie02-26-04, 06:35 PM | You don't have to fall to appreciate having a safety net. I see fudging as having a safety net for my game. IF something goes horribly horribly wrong, my players need never know about it. Seeing hard work from 5 people go down in flaming irredeemable ruin is not fun. If something might happen that makes everyone walk away from the table unhappy, then it is my duty to mitigate this in some way. Sometimes through fudging, or other times through adaptation. Sometimes one is the right tool, sometimes the other. BUt to deny yourself a useful tool simply to appease some part of you that wants to be uncaring, is just not right. It is a game. Games should be fun. I run the game. Then I should do what? Make sure my players are having fun. They can take a death. Hell, the game has two ways to die and not be rezzed. It is the bad things, like make a game un-fun, that I have to sometimes nip in the bud. A single lucky roll of apc at the beginning of an adventure that has no way but to just end it all right there. Should I say that you nab the villain or whatever, good night? Sure I could free form another adventure. But several hours work, and perfectly good chase acroos land sea and planes goes to waste. And might as well scrap that cool item that the celestial they meet gives them to aid their noble quest. Might as well scrap the guy altogether. He will just seem hollow after that. I can kiss all the plot hooks goodbye too. Or maybe the DC was 26... |
| LordHell02-26-04, 06:50 PM | Originally posted by Capn Charlie You don't have to fall to appreciate having a safety net. I see fudging as having a safety net for my game. IF something goes horribly horribly wrong, my players need never know about it. Seeing hard work from 5 people go down in flaming irredeemable ruin is not fun. If something might happen that makes everyone walk away from the table unhappy, then it is my duty to mitigate this in some way. Sometimes through fudging, or other times through adaptation. Sometimes one is the right tool, sometimes the other. BUt to deny yourself a useful tool simply to appease some part of you that wants to be uncaring, is just not right. It is a game. Games should be fun. I run the game. Then I should do what? Make sure my players are having fun. They can take a death. Hell, the game has two ways to die and not be rezzed. It is the bad things, like make a game un-fun, that I have to sometimes nip in the bud. A single lucky roll of apc at the beginning of an adventure that has no way but to just end it all right there. Should I say that you nab the villain or whatever, good night? Sure I could free form another adventure. But several hours work, and perfectly good chase acroos land sea and planes goes to waste. And might as well scrap that cool item that the celestial they meet gives them to aid their noble quest. Might as well scrap the guy altogether. He will just seem hollow after that. I can kiss all the plot hooks goodbye too. Or maybe the DC was 26... Exactly! <sarcasm> But wait, you're a betrayer of your friends! You deserve punishment worse than Judas, yada yada.</sarcasm> Hell even one of my players was just so damn unlucky he died often despite my best interests to keep him alive. Again, many official low level modules we used to play even had built in saftey nets, such as the Shadowdale adventure had Elminster walking his dog and would "heal" the party (only once) by saying "heel boy!" to his dog. This was built into the module! <sarcasm> What where they thinking?! All the party should die a glorious death at the feet of the DM, because we all know the dice are the most important part of the game!</sarcasm> |
| Femur Toothpick02-26-04, 07:46 PM | Holy crap, I leave my post for a while and look what happens. Lord Hell & aka Jimmy, I think you guys both have some great advice. I tend to fall in between somewhere. I think fudging is alright in moderation, but I also think it's important to keep death as possibility. If there is no threat of death, you loose that adreniline rush of being near death. I don't really want this thread to be a debate about the best way to DM though. I was hoping for advice on how to best deal with a DM that's going too far or running a game that's just not enjoyable. Ways to keep a group together while improving the game. |
| LordHell02-26-04, 07:54 PM | Originally posted by Femur Toothpick Holy crap, I leave my post for a while and look what happens. Lord Hell & aka Jimmy, I think you guys both have some great advice. I tend to fall in between somewhere. I think fudging is alright in moderation, but I also think it's important to keep death as possibility. If there is no threat of death, you loose that adreniline rush of being near death. I don't really want this thread to be a debate about the best way to DM though. I was hoping for advice on how to best deal with a DM that's going too far or running a game that's just not enjoyable. Ways to keep a group together while improving the game. The best way to DM is the way so that your group has the most fun. Even if that means dice fudging or no dice fudging, it doesn't matter. I stated way up in the post that I can accept either way, it's just not the way my group likes to do it. Onto your main concern: Basically what everyone else has said, take him aside and have a chat. Tell him it's very difficult to take the game seriously when the monsters are always getting so "lucky", or that it's too difficult when the monsters are always so "lucky" all the time. |
| zelvious02-26-04, 08:15 PM | my suggestion is, my cousin is a ranger player, and he will drop the dice on the ground and say he rolled a 20. but i say you show me the roll. or you leave the game immediatly. i know this seam mean and harsh, but i hate when people cheat. but i would just talk to your dm and say'' please remove the screen,because everyone is thinking your cheating.'' and that way we no for sure if you are or not.'' that is what i would do good luck cheers! |
| Femur Toothpick02-26-04, 08:17 PM | Yep, the simplest solution is often best -- talking it through. I've been trying to get with him to discuss, but haven't heard back from him yet. |
| The Master Weaver Is Warped02-27-04, 01:26 PM | Originally posted by olshanski_home It sounds like you run a good game, twisted puppy. If every DM I played was honest with the rolls, there wouldn't be a debate. From Femur Toothpick's initial post... there are plenty of players who have problems with DM hiding/fudging rolls... and a fairly easy solution to the problem is having the DM roll in the open. Thank Fharlaghn I play with Twisted Puppy. I'm the one he often shows rolls to. I also have no problem with him fudging a roll if he deems necessary. I'm not a human calculator, or a rules lawyer. Even if he rolled in the open, I don't think I'd have a bloody clue about attack bonuses and AC of opponents, though I generally figure out when I can't hit something. I have played with players who could. (My son regularly puts me in a trance state by regaling me with monster stats. I could care less.) Don't think they have more fun than I have. I think it is a moot point though. If the DM wants something to happen, it will happen, no dice involved. There are plenty of in game mechanics (feats, magic items, etc.) to skew dice rolling in one direction or the other. If the DM is fudging rolls, then they haven't planned well enough. Malicious planning or fudging rolls, either way, if you or the DM has a 'them against me' attitude, the game is bound to be unpleasant. Sorry, but the fudging of dice rolls is a symptom, not a cause. Rolling in the open will not solve the problem. |
| LordHell02-27-04, 05:34 PM | Originally posted by The Master Weaver Is Warped Thank Fharlaghn I play with Twisted Puppy. I'm the one he often shows rolls to. I also have no problem with him fudging a roll if he deems necessary. I'm not a human calculator, or a rules lawyer. Even if he rolled in the open, I don't think I'd have a bloody clue about attack bonuses and AC of opponents, though I generally figure out when I can't hit something. I have played with players who could. (My son regularly puts me in a trance state by regaling me with monster stats. I could care less.) Don't think they have more fun than I have. I think it is a moot point though. If the DM wants something to happen, it will happen, no dice involved. There are plenty of in game mechanics (feats, magic items, etc.) to skew dice rolling in one direction or the other. If the DM is fudging rolls, then they haven't planned well enough. Malicious planning or fudging rolls, either way, if you or the DM has a 'them against me' attitude, the game is bound to be unpleasant. Sorry, but the fudging of dice rolls is a symptom, not a cause. Rolling in the open will not solve the problem. This is exactly right. If it's not the dice rolls, it'll be the monsters hitpoints, or a larger die for damage, etc... |