Post/Author/DateTime	Post
HeNeedsAName 03-30-07, 11:35 AM	We wanted to start a new game with level 10 characters. We all are getting a legacy item. But I play a Drow, and the DM says my legacy armor only works like a level 8 one because I have only 8 character levels and 2 level adjustment. I read about level adjustment and it says it's there to make stronger races equal with normal characters. But now my character is no longer equal to the others because they have much stronger items than me. I have told my DM this, but he thinks he's doing it the right way. Can't you tell my DM that he's doing it wrong? :(
Praedoran 03-30-07, 11:46 AM	Your DM is right. +2 Level Adj. means that's your ECL. I believe Legacy Items are based on Hit Die or actual Class Level, not -Effective- Character Level. Your DM is not Disadvantaging you, your race is.
Comus 03-30-07, 11:50 AM	Honestly, how much more powerful can their items be? It's just two levels.
MaryContrary 03-30-07, 11:58 AM	Um...no offense but that's kind of the whole point in having a DM in the first place. Somebody has got the have the final word if you're going to put a bunch of geeks around a table doing something together. Sometimes that final word isn't one you like but so long as it doesn't completely ruin the game or make you stick a fork in someone's eye it's kinda worth it. I've got a pretty good DM and he's even my boyfriend for some years now and he still makes decisions now and again that I don't agree with. I consider it all worth it because I'm just glad someone else is willing to DM and let me play! :D I don't ever get pissy about it though unless the decision is so bad that I actually would rather DM that day than play my character. Of course if the decision is ever that terribly bad then the other players are already yelling at him too. Now I have no idea what a legacy item is but I'm going to guess that two levels isn't really a major issue. Again no offense but I would suggest reconsidering from another perspective here. Would you rather play with your character's legacy armor being two levels lower than the other player character's items or would you rather DM? I'm going to bet five bucks you'd rather just play. So there you go. :D
Aminvelos 03-30-07, 01:13 PM	DM isn't doing anything you chose to be a drow, although I can't see how the legacy item significantly gives you a disadvantage but you haven't posted anything about it. As for a lvl 8 drow character, your dm is right and he isn't disadvantaging you anymore than some one choosing one weapon over another. In this case you chose drow.
Kradlo 03-30-07, 01:58 PM	Your GM is absolutely right; legacy items are based on hit dice and character levels, not ECL. But, you might talk to your GM (politely) and ask him to consider buying off the LA penalty, as per Unearthed Arcana. That could help your character.
Lordofthe9 03-30-07, 03:13 PM	Something tells me these aren't the responses the OP wanted to hear, why does that make me smile a little bit? :devil:
Dragonteuthis 03-30-07, 03:50 PM	Something tells me these aren't the responses the OP wanted to hear, why does that make me smile a little bit? :devil: Because it's gratifying to see someone who's trying to get something for nothing be denied.
Lordofthe9 03-30-07, 03:53 PM	Gratification rocks!
couchmonkey 03-30-07, 05:29 PM	Here are a few related questions. 1.Is character wealth based on Hit Dice, Class Levels or ECL? 2.Do the Least, Lesser and Greater Legacy Feats Character level requirements refer to Hit Dice, Class Levels or ECL? 3.Is the design of the Legacy Champion meant to directly streamline with the Legacy Weapon system in regards to negating Gold Costs? 4.The entry requirements of the Legacy Champion refer to a Character Level of 10th. Does this mean Hit Dice, Class Levels or ECL? From what I have read LA+Racial Hit Dice+Class Levels=ECL EFFECTIVE CHARACTER LEVEL I think you guys and his DM are wrong.
chava 03-30-07, 06:04 PM	From someone who uses Legacy weapons in their game. Wealth is based on character level (or class level plus racial HD). Legacy weapons are based on character level. The entire point of a level adjustment is that the race/template has advantages that make them stronger than a std race - thus they are a lower level character - bc they have innate abilities that make them stronger.
Cifer 03-30-07, 06:12 PM	Help, help, you're being oppressed! However, you might ask your DM to employ a variant rule since LA-races generally get weaker with higher levels: LA buyoff (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) And by the way: From what I have read LA+Racial Hit Dice+Class Levels=ECL EFFECTIVE CHARACTER LEVEL Now I'd bold that a bit differently: EFFECTIVE CHARACTER LEVEL - not the actual one.
couchmonkey 03-30-07, 06:40 PM	From the SRD Level Adjustment and Effective Character Level: To determine the effective character level (ECL) of a monster character, add its level adjustment to its racial Hit Dice and character class levels. Use ECL instead of character level to determine how many experience points a monster character needs to reach its next level. Also use ECL to determine starting wealth for a monster character. http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/theraven_stephenh/monsters/MonstersasRaces.html I already knew the answer but I guess you didn't. Now onto the more important question: Since wealth and experience are determined by ECL for a Drow rather than Character Level does the same apply to the Least Legacy Feat? The Least Legacy Feat's prerequisites are Character Level 5th and ritual that has a gold cost balanced against a 5th level characters wealth. If these two prerequisites are meant to to be met in tandem then it implies that ECL should replace Character Level for level adjusted races. Then there is the argument that Legacy Weapons are a closed system balanced within itself. The feats do not cost a PC their "every 3rd level feats" but instead cost a sliver of wealth. The capabilities of Legacy Weapons are balanced against penalties and losses to the PCs own capabilities. Again, ponder the questions I posed in the previous post.
DarkRhystar 03-30-07, 08:53 PM	I don't see a point in punishing a player twice-over for his racial choice especial when it's Drow which is at the lower end of the LA +2 power spectrum.
Einvaldurinn_mikli 03-30-07, 09:56 PM	Wealth is based on character level (or class level plus racial HD). This is false. It's based on ECL. Don't know about Legacy weapons though as I don't own the book.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 03-31-07, 02:09 AM	Couch monkey is correct when he aserts character level and effective character level are the same. There is a world of difference between ECL, effective character level, and hit dia. ECL is used to claculate things like XP, and starting wealth, etc. It is also used to determine the maxuim XP level that a charcter can start at. When a race has a level adjustment, it means that race is more powerful. So powerful infact that it is equivalent of LA, level adjustment, + 0 + X experience levels. Where X equals the level adjustment. Thus a drow, LA +2, fighter (or what have you is) is as powerful as a LA +0 race, of 2 levels higher. So a Drow fighter 1, and human fighter 3 both have 3,000 XP. Or are both effectively third level characters. This is diiferent from hit dia, and class levels. Class levels refers to the total number of actual class levels a character posses. In our above example the drow has 1 class level, and the human has 3. Hit dia simplely refer to the total hit dia a character posses. For example: a stone child has an LA of +2, and 4 monsterouse humanoid hit dia. ECL is calculated by adding the sum of LA adjustments,and hit dia, from class levels or otherwise. For example a stone child fighter 2 half dragon is an ECL 11. (La + 2 stonechild, LA + 3 half dragon, 4 mopnsterouse HD, and 2 fighter class levels. 2+3+4+2=11) Different abilities, spells, feats, classes, etc will specify what they calculate, or look at, to determine if the abilities, spells, feats, classes, etc (thing) has an effect, or the character qualify's for the bonus. For example Weapon specialization requires at least 4 levels of the fighter class. Our stone child does not quailify as it only has 2 class levels of fighter. However the spell Greater Sleep dictates that it effects creatures up to 6 hit dia. In this case it does effect the stone child becuase our stone child only has 6 hit dia. When it comes time to calculate XP, determined based on character level, for defeating an encounter the stone child is treated as though it were an 11th level character. And indeed to play one, the player would have to make character of at least 11th level. For the weapons of legacy, on page 24 of the "Weapons of Legacy" book it states, " Weilder level: you must posses this character level to gain the legacy item abilities..." Since the drow is ECL 10 it is treated as being a 10th level character for the purpose of determining which legacy abilities it posses. At least according the RAW it does. However if the DM wants to house differently then that is certainly his progative to do so. I would ask that he apply it consistantly though, and award XP as if your character were 2 levels lower as well. I would also volunteer to start with wealth as though I were 8th levell. And further more subtract 2 from my level for anything else that specifies chaarcter level.
Merestil Haye 03-31-07, 06:46 PM	The DM is correct, I'm afraid. The Legacy feats specify that they require "Character Level *" where the * is a number dependant on the legacy grade - least, lesser or greater. "Character Level" means the sum total of all class levels and all racial HD. A human Ftr 3 / Rog 3 has a Character Level of 6. So does a Bugbear Fighter 3. The OPs character is Character Level 8, has three feats (plus any bonus from class and race), and two ability increases. His maximum ranks in any skill are 11. And from the point of view of his legacy item he is an 8th level character and gets the 8th level benefits. "Character level" and "Hit dice" mean exactly the same thing in D&D and character development terms. Effective character level equals character level plus level adjustment. Bugbears have an LA of +1, therefore the bugbear mentioned above has an ECL of 7. That means he advances to next level (whatever he wants to take) when he accumulates 28,000cp. If a PC he is expected to have wealth equivalent to any other 7th level character. The OPs ECL is 10. He has 10th level xp, is awarded xp as if he was 10th level (not 8th) and is evaluated for treasure the same as any other 10th level character. That does not change the fact that he has only 8 HD, and HD is what the legacy weapon system works off. Page 2 of the FAQ has a long section explaining the difference between the various terms. if you read that things should get clearer.
couchmonkey 04-03-07, 12:02 PM	ECL is the character level for Level Adjusted races. It's been that way ever since they developed it as a balancing mechanic. Here is a response I got from customer service: Yes your ECL 5 character would qualify as character level 5 and be able to perform the ritual for the Legacy Weapon. Good Gaming! Zephreum. Customer Service Representative Wizards of the Coast
ShadowDragon8685 04-03-07, 12:21 PM	Once again, the DM is wrong. That said, I really can't reccomend Weapons of Legacy. The system is broken and sad. Just play a primary spellcaster, pawn off your Legacy weapon (after identifying it) for however much you can get from whomever it is worth the most too, and then rox the house with your primary spells. Legacy weapons suck big time. Warriors with penalized HP? Penalized BAB? (DIRECTLY penalized BAB, meaning they don't get iterative attacks?) And so forth? Sorry. But PENALIZING you in what you do BEST in order to make you BETTER at doing it is like replacing the engine in a NASCAR auto with a Ford V6, and then supercharging the V6 and adding a nitro - not nearly enough. Not even sensible.
Aeromus 04-03-07, 06:21 PM	ECL is the character level for Level Adjusted races. It's been that way ever since they developed it as a balancing mechanic. Here is a response I got from customer service: Yes your ECL 5 character would qualify as character level 5 and be able to perform the ritual for the Legacy Weapon. Good Gaming! Zephreum. Customer Service Representative Wizards of the Coast This is the same CM that said you can wield a two handed sword and attack with armor spikes therefore applying your off hands "half" damage bonus from strength twice. In other words, I don't trust CM's judgement.
Comus 04-04-07, 01:14 AM	This is the same CM that said you can wield a two handed sword and attack with armor spikes therefore applying your off hands "half" damage bonus from strength twice. In other words, I don't trust CM's judgement. Of course, you can use armor spikes and a THW in TWF. So... yeah.
couchmonkey 04-04-07, 01:49 AM	Fine, if you would rather discount someone employed by WOTC to answer rules questions we will simply use logic. I will express this in the form of a sylogism. ALL ECL 5 characters are treated as CL 5 for wealth and experience. ALL Least Legacy Feats are balanced against the wealth and experience of CL 5 characters. ALL ECL 5 characters are balanced via wealth and experience to qualify for Least Legacy Feats.
Merestil Haye 04-04-07, 07:59 AM	I will express this in the form of a sylogism. ALL ECL 5 characters are treated as CL 5 for wealth and experience. ALL Least Legacy Feats are balanced against the wealth and experience of CL 5 characters. ALL ECL 5 characters are balanced via wealth and experience to qualify for Least Legacy Feats.Unfortunately, the Legacy feats don't care about your logic. They were not written assuming "wealth balance". They were written using defined game terms that have specific meanings. The Least Legacy feat states it has a prerequisite of "Character Level 5". The term "Character Level" is defined as "The racial HD of the creature plus the total number of levels in all classes the character has." Therefore all it cares about is that, between the creatures race and classes, it has five or more character levels. The term "Effective Character Level" is also defined. The definition is "the sum of all hit dice (including class levels) and the Level Adjustment for the race." If a character has a non-zero Level Adjustment then ECL =/= Character Level. And the Legacy feats care about the latter, not the former (unless errata I am not aware of has been issued, in which case please cite it). Conclusion : The DM ruled correctly.
couchmonkey 04-04-07, 10:12 AM	Fortunately an agent of WOTC trusted by, employed and paid by WOTC to represtent WOTC and its rulings agrees with my assesment rather than yours or the DM's. Oh, and its not "my logic" its Aristotle's. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristotle However it seems WOTC is contradicting itself again as I have read the faq. Perhaps I was a bit hastey. I started having doubts about my argument when I started applying it to higher LA races such as Vamps. Maybe by the time we get a 4th Edition we will have a less amorphous blob such as Character Level, ECL, CR and get something more streamlined to prevent future disagreements. The DM is correct. I suppose I wouldn't have jumped to the OPs side so quickly if some of the posters weren't so rude and made these forums out to be an unfriendly place. The OP, if he ever comes back, might consider playing the none LA Drow variant found in one of the Forgotten Realms books (I can't remember which one it is) and save himself the headache.
Zumarai 04-04-07, 10:33 AM	For the weapons of legacy, on page 24 of the "Weapons of Legacy" book it states, " Weilder level: you must posses this character level to gain the legacy item abilities..." Since the drow is ECL 10 it is treated as being a 10th level character for the purpose of determining which legacy abilities it posses. This is incorrect, the only thing ECL affects is XP needed to level and expected character wealth – that's it. The DM is correct.
ShadowDragon8685 04-04-07, 10:42 AM	It's quite simple. Tell your DM that he's unfairly disadvantaging you, and explain why. Tell him to hang his interpretation of the rules and balance the game properly, or you're leaving. Hint: Only do this when you have enough of the rest of the party backing you that you can destroy his game when you leave. As for myself, ECL is Character Level as far as WoL are concerned. It's just plain ******* stupid otherwise, another reason that LA races inevitably wind up being worth jack squat.
Zumarai 04-04-07, 10:50 AM	It's quite simple. Tell your DM that he's unfairly disadvantaging you, and explain why. Tell him to hang his interpretation of the rules and balance the game properly, or you're leaving. But the DM is following RAW, and the 3.5 FAQ so how is he unfairly disadvantaging the player, and how is it "his" interpretation of the rules when those are "the" Rules? The only aspects of the game that ECL affect, ever, is XP needed to level and expected character wealth. Everything else is based off of HD (whether racial, class, or both). …The end.
ShadowDragon8685 04-04-07, 10:53 AM	But the DM is following RAW, and the 3.5 FAQ so how is he unfairly disadvantaging the player, and how is it "his" interpretation of the rules when those are "the" Rules? The only aspects of the game that ECL affect, ever, is XP needed to level and expected character wealth. Everything else is based off of HD (whether racial, class, or both). …The end. FACT: Level Adjustments are never again as powerful as they seem at the LA +1 character level. FACT: The other players have Weapons of Legacy at their ECL of 10. They have Activated these weapons, although these mighty weapons are of dubious quality. FACT: This character is not only being penalized by two character levels (which means from 2d4 to 2d12 hit dice, or any combination thereof, depending on multiclassing, as well as the attendant abilities), but is also now being forced to play with an ECL 8 weapon instead of an ECL 10. This is penalizing him twice for one dubious "boost" to the character, namely the "mighty" bonuses that Drow get... Which are crap, to be perfectly frank.
starfire311 04-04-07, 10:55 AM	man this is a tough one, my 1st thoughts on it were that no you do not use ECL for determining legacy item abilities, but the more I have looked into it the more I think I may be wrong. here are some quotes from RAW that pertain to this "Character level" is a character’s total number of levels. It is used to determine when feats and ability score boosts are gained. Level Adjustment and Effective Character Level To determine the effective character level (ECL) of a monster character, add its level adjustment to its racial Hit Dice and character class levels. Use ECL instead of character level to determine how many experience points a monster character needs to reach its next level. Also use ECL to determine starting wealth for a monster character Feat Acquisition and Ability Score Increases A monster’s total Hit Dice, not its ECL, govern its acquisition of feats and ability score increases. these tells us clearly that ECL is used for XP and wealth and not used for determining when to gain feats and ability score increases. It seems to me that the later part, saying that ECL does not govern feat and ability score increases is an excpetion to a rule, and not the rule, it seems to me that you should treat ECL as character level for all other instances. but here is the big one for me Your maximum rank in a class skill is your character level + 3. If the only excpetion to ECL being counted as character level was for governing feat and ability score increase acquisition, then this would mean that your max ranks in skills is your ECL +3, and unless I am way wrong this is not the case, your max skill ranks are your Class levels + monster HD +3. This makes me think that ECL is to be only used when determining wealth and xp, and in all other cases use HD+class levels or character level. this is kinda confusing.
Zumarai 04-04-07, 11:03 AM	The other players have Weapons of Legacy at their ECL of 10. Only if the other players are playing a race with a LA, otherwise they have Weapons of Legacy at their "CL 10". I just don't like this cake and eat it too shenanigans, one of the players in my Planescape campaign is a drow psion, and I've let him use LA buy-off, but that's it, he wanted to play a drow, so suck it up.
couchmonkey 04-04-07, 11:08 AM	I totally agree with you ShadowDragon. The Drow would have to get scaling abilities to be worth its Level Adjustment but the RAW states otherwise. The Drow were written when the system was young and are a good example of bad design. It is a bit unfair that the OP is being penalized twice for some low level craptacular spell-like abilities. It's about as balanced as telling the Sorceror2/Fighter8 that he can't take Lesser Legacy because the handful of inneffectual spells makes him too powerful.
Steely_Dan 04-04-07, 11:23 AM	Merestil Haye and Zumarai are correct.
TwistedPuppy 04-04-07, 04:09 PM	It is a bit unfair that the OP is being penalized twice for some low level craptacular spell-like abilities. It's about as balanced as telling the Sorceror2/Fighter8 that he can't take Lesser Legacy because the handful of inneffectual spells makes him too powerful. Hardly. A Sorceror2/Fighter 8 doesn't have SR19 and other racial goodies. And even the "handful of ineffectual spells" can prove to be useful - the key is to generate situations where they are. If everything the drow gets is as ineffectual as you claim, and you know it isn't going to scale up, what is to complain about? The player made the choice, it wasn't forced on him. If the OP didn't realise how the rule works, I think it is only fair for the DM allow him to make a different character, at the same level as the others if he so chooses. I don't know how weapons of legacy work, so maybe it really is a huge difference. In that case, like I said above, the DM needs to let the OP make another character. If I have a fault with the DM in this case, it is not making his interpretation of the rule clear to the OP when the OP stated his intention to play a race with LA.
Mighty_Draco 04-04-07, 06:29 PM	Here goes Half Dragon Half Fiend Drow Wizard 1 Starting con 8 With templates 12 d4 hit die, add in con mod and you get 5 hp. He picks up a weapon that uses table 4-3 and completes ritual 1. If it were true that ECL determines abilities then that would mean his hp would drop to -1, killing him before he even gets to the second ritual :doh:
couchmonkey 04-06-07, 03:45 PM	At low levels SR19 is a boon. At higher levels Casters wipe their ***** with SR19. And as for the other racial goodies they just can't compete with faster feat acquisition and higher max ranks for skills. No the pathetic Drow Fighter18 is just as weak as the Sorcorer2/Fighter18.
kelvinaw273 04-06-07, 07:51 PM	For my own 2cp worth .... The level adjustment system sucks. There are a couple of ways around it, and the XP buyoff system is probably a good one. Another is to add new racial abilities at higher levels, like racial replacement levels, to continue justifying the level adjustment. In the case of the drow, upgrading their magical powers, their spell resistance, losing their daylight blindness or increasing their stats would be appropriate. The RAW is correct in that you are 8th level with regard to the legacy items. What can I say? Your DM is technically correct, and you chose to take a Drow character. At the end of the day there has to be some reason Drow don't rule the world, and you have discovered it. If you think about it, if a player chose to run with a poor combination of multi-classes, you wouldn't blame the DM for it, would you? The solution: Discuss with your DM the possibilities of working around the LA, or giving you some form of compensation for it.
Isadore 04-07-07, 12:50 AM	You run Planescape, too, Zumerai? Good choice. I don't understand this Legacy weapons business - sounds like a real headache though....I do know that my drow character's ECL is 17 and he generally gets treated as such for purposes of XP, SR, feats, AB points, etc. BUT - his class levels determine class-based stuff like magic access as usual... And I agree Zumerai; it indeed sucks that it takes me forever to level up and my spells don't "pop" like a 17th level human character's would (and I guess that I would only get a level 15 Legacy Weapon whachamacallit)...but I chose a drow. You don't get kickass SR, better ability scores, 120 ft darkvision, AND mysterious good looks with NO tradeoffs!