Post/Author/DateTime	Post
hymdohl 08-20-04, 09:39 AM	I know there is little I can do, but I thought I'd post this. In our last campaign, in one of my games, our DM stopped allowing spellcasting as a ready action to be attacked becausxe he thought it was unbalanced (I had an elven monk with a nice dex and a bow, he had flying spellcasters). And now he is outlawing it for his campaign entirely (I know he is not using for NPC's either, but he really never had). It kind of frustrates me because I think it is an integral way for a non-spellcaster to harass a spellcaster. Because of this, I am playing more spellcasting types... What do you all think?
Kiri Sittori 08-20-04, 10:22 AM	Feel free to bash yer DM over the head with as many books as possible if he ever Counter Spells a PC, OR if he allows a PC to Counter Spell an enemy. Both of these take ready actions against spellcasters. That said, magic has become incredibly overpowered in yer DM's campaign, since ready vs. spellcaster is the ONLY RELIABLE METHOD of trying to stop a spellcaster. (AoO and grapples are BOTH potentially defeated by Combat Casting, and any other distractions are either circumstantial or produced by spellcasters.) (Note on grapples: grapples can stop many, but NOT all, spells... and can't stop Stilled spells as a general rule.)
SureFoot 08-20-04, 10:49 AM	Your DM has exibited what is commonly known as a Knee Jerk Reaction. He has house-ruled a MAJOR piece of combat out of the game because your one character messed up one (or a few) of his pet spellcasters or something. You are correct in trying to run more spellcasters. Make really deadly spellcasters who don't care about being interrupted during spellcasting, so you can show him the (enormous) errors of his ways. House rules should be 1) well thought out 2) not overly sweeping (in general) this house rule is neither.
FrogTheMighty 08-20-04, 11:19 AM	Ok, tell your DM that you (the player) ready an action "punch you in the face" against the event "you make another moronic house rule" Should solve your problem
Arbitrary Aardvark 08-20-04, 12:21 PM	Originally posted by hymdohl I know there is little I can do, but I thought I'd post this. In our last campaign, in one of my games, our DM stopped allowing spellcasting as a ready action to be attacked becausxe he thought it was unbalanced (I had an elven monk with a nice dex and a bow, he had flying spellcasters). And now he is outlawing it for his campaign entirely (I know he is not using for NPC's either, but he really never had). It kind of frustrates me because I think it is an integral way for a non-spellcaster to harass a spellcaster. Because of this, I am playing more spellcasting types... What do you all think? Its not unbalancing. There are so many ways for the opposing spell casters to avoid this. They are all available by the time the spell caster has fly: 1. Protection from arrows. This gives him DR 10 vs. your attacks, so the concentration check is easier to make. 2. Mirror Image -- this gives him a good chance of not being hit. Both of the above are very reasonable precautions for a flying wizard to take. 3. Use a wand. Since using a wand doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity, it probably doesn't require a concentration check. Even if your DM allows your readied action against spells to go off when the wizard uses his wand, it won't do much good. If the opposing spell casters use the above tactics, they actually benefit. Rather than you getting multiple shots per round at them, you are firing only once per round, with little chance of disrupting their attacks. Feel free to show this to your DM. He probably hasn't run wizards much as a player, so he probably doens't have a good handle on how to run them as opponents. (I have the same problem with monks.)
Arbitrary Aardvark 08-20-04, 12:23 PM	Originally posted by Kiri Sittori That said, magic has become incredibly overpowered in yer DM's campaign, since ready vs. spellcaster is the ONLY RELIABLE METHOD of trying to stop a spellcaster. And its not all that reliable given mirror image, protection from arrows, and the use of wands.
Kiri Sittori 08-20-04, 12:38 PM	Originally posted by Arbitrary Aardvark And its not all that reliable given mirror image, protection from arrows, and the use of wands. True, which strengthens the argument *against* the house rule. (Then again, I'm reminded of my brother's counter-argument: if every single magic-using enemy constantly does those things, it's poor DMing.)
pres_man 08-20-04, 01:10 PM	Of course you realize the weakness of using spells to defend a caster against someone readying an action to attack some casting a spell, right .....? That is if they keep getting hit, they can't cast the other spells to protect themselves. I can kind of understand where you're DM is coming from (having played a wizard who didn't get off one spell before dying after 5 rounds), the question is how does your character know that he is casting a spell and not just waving his hands around and talking to himself? Does your character have to roll a spellcraft check? Knowledge (arcana)? If you decide to attack whenever you think he is casting, can he act crazy forcing you to attack and THEN cast the spell, does he have to make a concentration check then? Though I wouldn't ever remove readying an attack for casting, I'm not just going to condemn your DM either.
hymdohl 08-20-04, 01:30 PM	I am not condemning him either, just venting and trying to get opinions., He is a great DM and a great friend, we have just always had differences in rules interpretation, and now that he has said that I am "finding a loophole", just kinda gets me frustrated that he thinks that when it is not the case. I do admit I try to find loopholes to benefit my characters, but I am always careful to express them, because he WILL use them against us (which is totally fine)
Kiri Sittori 08-20-04, 01:35 PM	What loophole? It's in the PHB as a specific action --- p160. And knowing what behaviours seem like spellcasting is sufficient (from a DMG example of readying, which involved covering a door from ghouls and possibly jumping the gun on allies trying to sucker the ghouls into the room.) PHB p160b: Distracting Spellcasters: You can ready an attack against a spellcaster with the trigger "if she starts casting a spell." If you damage the spellcaster, she may lose the spell she was trying to cast (as determined by her Concentration check result.)
Arbitrary Aardvark 08-20-04, 01:54 PM	Originally posted by pres_man Of course you realize the weakness of using spells to defend a caster against someone readying an action to attack some casting a spell, right .....? That is if they keep getting hit, they can't cast the other spells to protect themselves. Unless he' suprised, the wizard can certainly cast mirror image the round before they attack.
hymdohl 08-20-04, 02:09 PM	Originally posted by Arbitrary Aardvark Its not unbalancing. There are so many ways for the opposing spell casters to avoid this. They are all available by the time the spell caster has fly: 1. Protection from arrows. This gives him DR 10 vs. your attacks, so the concentration check is easier to make. 2. Mirror Image -- this gives him a good chance of not being hit. Both of the above are very reasonable precautions for a flying wizard to take. 3. Use a wand. Since using a wand doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity, it probably doesn't require a concentration check. Even if your DM allows your readied action against spells to go off when the wizard uses his wand, it won't do much good. If the opposing spell casters use the above tactics, they actually benefit. Rather than you getting multiple shots per round at them, you are firing only once per round, with little chance of disrupting their attacks. Feel free to show this to your DM. He probably hasn't run wizards much as a player, so he probably doens't have a good handle on how to run them as opponents. (I have the same problem with monks.) The problem here is that [/I] Wizards are his favorite class as a DM and a PC [/I] He just likes to play them straight forward, not much pre :)
Feriin 08-20-04, 02:13 PM	Casting on the defensive. If your DM did this then there would be no reason for his rule.. I had a 2nd cleric with a +13 in this , the DC to beat is 15 only ...
hymdohl 08-20-04, 02:16 PM	It still works with casting on the defensive, as it is not an AOO
Feriin 08-20-04, 02:34 PM	Reguardless of that. There is no reason why a wizard can't have taken the following feats. Combat Casting Skill Focus ( consentration) Then maxxed out his concentration skill At first level with a Constitution modifier of 0 , it is easy to get a Consentration score of +11. By 3rd level It is possible to get Consentration score of +15. At 6th level it is possible to get a consentration csore of +19. (please note that the feats at 3rd and 6th levels are being use on feats that each add a + 2 modifier to consentration).
Sacrusha 08-20-04, 02:50 PM	"(Note on grapples: grapples can stop many, but NOT all, spells... and can't stop Stilled spells as a general rule.)" Grappling against spellcasters is at least 100% broken. Pin the caster, the caster has no way out (break the pin, AND escape the grapple in one round with wizard bab???), and can't cats any spells with verbal or somatic components anymore, needs an extra full round for all spells that require material components, and still needs to make a DC 20+spell level concentration check (without getting the combat casting bonus) to cast a spell. The only thing the caster can do is "fight" without spells, or use an item which has been acquired for exactly that purpose (helm of teleportation, or similar). The one house rule which makes grapple less broken is to allow escape artist attempts as a mea, that way halfling rogues and mages don't have to say "Oh, I'm grappled? I'll go get a beer, tell me when its over." About the problem with your GM, hymdohl, try talking him into lowering the concentration check to maintain the spell by 5, then he'll see the effects.
Beamup 08-20-04, 03:05 PM	Precast freedom of movement, use dimension door, don't be in range to get grappled anyway... there are plenty of things a spellcaster can do to escape a grapple.
Finarin Panjoro 08-20-04, 03:30 PM	Feriin, No offense, but I have no idea how you are coming up with a Concentration score of +11 at first level. Especially with a Constitution of 0. Even if the wizard takes Skill Focus: Concentration and maximum ranks that's only a +7. There is no feat which gives a +2 to Concentration checks. Even if someone created one, you could only take it once. So you couldn't take it at 3rd and 6th level. Combat Casting has no impact on readied actions. Combat casting only applies to casting defensively and when grappled or pinned. You can't cast defensively to avoid a readied attack, so Combat Casting doesn't help at all in this situation. The bonus also does not apply to your concentration check to resist having your spell disrupted by damage. Basically Combat Casting is completely irrelevant against readied attacks to disrupt your spells.
General Dorsey 08-20-04, 06:50 PM	Has your DM disallowed all readying of actions? What about delaying your initiative? What about tactics of all types? This isn't a board game. There is supposed to be some options for combat. If he is disallowing readying an action only for attacking spell casters, then that is unfair. Ask him if you can still set a spear against a charge. That is also readying an action. Ask him if you can delay your action instead of readying it. Then as soon as you hear him say that the spellcaster in casting, say that you want to go now. Make it clear before hand that you are looking to see what everyone is doing. If there are obvious spellcasters, keep your eyes on them. There is really very little difference between readying and delaying an action. You may be able to get by with this for a little bit. Your DM needs to give you extra experience points when dealing with spellcasters because the challenge just got a little bit harder.
Remnant 08-22-04, 09:40 PM	Remind him of still/silence spell. If a readied archer doesn't know a spell is being cast, it's hard to justify releasing a readied action.
bitnine 08-22-04, 11:30 PM	Hm. So in this game you can ready an action as normally - what is stopping a character from doing the same for spellcasting? I know the DM has said that it isn't allowed, but that doesn't quite describe what is preventing them from readying an arrow for the first spell cast the way a sorcerer can ready a forcecage for the first melee type to take a step in his direction. I remember a similar rule by a DM who limited the number of arrows a character could carry, regardless of encumberment or packing, and wouldn't allow characters to carry arrows for their friends. Same sort of issue with that sort of thing, an invisible, inescapable, illogical barring of action that ain't that great for believability. Maybe you should alert the DM to this thread. If he's predisposed to listen to others, I'm sure that we can round up a ragged mob in no time flat telling him how its a bad and ill-conceived rule. And perhaps tell him about some alternate things he can do if he feels that his wizards are dying to fast when facing down larger groups on their lonesome.
Xixt412 08-31-04, 12:14 PM	1.) You said flying spellcasters, that means that even if you disrupt one with a readied action (and only if he fails his concentration check), the others can still successfully cast spells that turn. 2.) If the spellcasters notice you watching for them to cast spells, why don't any of them pull out their crossbows? If none of them have crossbows and they seem to like the fly spell, why don't they have crossbows? 3.) Spellcasters are supposed to be weak when caught off-guard but powerful when given time to prepare. If these casters didn't have time to cast displacement or something beforehand, tough. In short, your DM is wrong.
Limit 09-01-04, 01:14 AM	Although I agree that your DM's new rule was a knee jerk reaction, I think some of the replies on this thread were equally as "jerky". I'm sure that resulting to physical violence will help you resolve this with your DM. :rolleyes: Anyway, your DM saw a situation which he probably didn't know how to resolve within the rules, so he altered the rules. My best suggestion is calmly teach him why readying an action to attacking someone who casts isn't over powered. The most important thing is that if you ready an action and the action doesn't happen, you wasted your round really. You can ready against "a" spellcaster and your character would obviously be studying her with a bow drawn, so that caster might realize not to cast. Even then, the other casters could still cast. The caster who realized they shouldn't cast could still down a potion (invisibility?) or use a wand. There are a lot of other options too. High AC wizards, Archmages who use convert some spells into spell-like abilities. You said yourself you like finding "loopholes" and tricks. Just teach your DM the tricks to overcoming the ready vs spell action.