Post/Author/DateTime	Post
oloknotwise 07-04-07, 08:51 PM	Recently I posted a thread on the Prestige Class board here on WotC (and on Giant in the Playground) asking for some advice from more knowlegable DnD players. The problem was my DM has requested for me to balance our my Radiant Servant of Pelor prestige class. The board is here: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=875548 and the Giant in the Playground board is here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49082 Now, my DM has some sort of problem with the RSoP as seriously wants to hinder it to make it balanced. From what he is trying to provide me to "balance" really seems to be too much. Another alternative is to provide a strict roleplaying code-of-conduct on the class. That seems fine, and I would be willing to accept. However, the problem with said conduct is how he has set it up. The code-of-conduct he has for me basically makes it impossible to fulfill in our campaign. Rather than being a disciple of Pelor, he requires that I promote the goodness and neutralness to the blindness that a Paladin promote Law and Good. How does one play neutralness in a chaotic party (I am the only non-chaotic PC in the party). To him, if I act chaotic or lawful, I will loose my cleric abilities, along with the ones provided by the RSoP. The rest of the party is not willing to undergo an atonement subplot. As of now, I have been providing a great deal of opposition to my DM's desires because I find them to be rather insulting. I understand Rule 0: the DM is always right, but I find his recent rulings on the RSoP to be rather immature. To him (and more recently his younger brother who is also in the campaign as another PC) the class is too overpowered for the campaign. There has never been a moment where my abilities have been too powerful and have overshadowed the rest of the party. I have only used my empowered abilities a small handful of times, mainly because the other PCs are rarely in serious harm. Since I have taken the PrC, we have never once had an undead encounter (I am at tenth level, four levels are RSoP), and the radiance ability never really comes up. Yet I am too powerful for the campaign? I will give you a little information on the campaign: There are four PCs: -CG Human Ranger/Dervish (Adrian): this is the DM's brother and our melee fighter. He has the best AC and with his two scimitars he is quite powerful. He has an insane critical hit range and can dish out some great damage. He also enjoys taking the spotlight and we commonly find ourselves performing actions that are to his desire. He has only once died, which was only because of his own stupidity (he planted a magical seed that caused a 200 lb. stone wall to drop 100 ft. on his head). He often provides a great deal of opposition to everyone in the campaign, and often creates a large disturbance in the middle of the sessions. He often does hog the spotlight, more than he should at times. His character is almost like a fighter/rogue/bard cross, but a ranger with a high charisma and dexterity. -CN Half-Elf Ranger/Sorcerer/Arcane Archer (Thearia): She is the half sister to Adrian, and often the other voice of reason with me. She is a great archer, but is very courteous when int he spotlight. However, she is VERY greedy. She is staying as a neutral party in this discussion. -CN Human Rogue/Shadowdancer (Rye): She is quiet and fairly reasonable. Like myself, she is rarely in the spotlight, and occasionally has a problem with Adrian. She finds herself playing second fiddle to Adrian in terms of sneaking around and stealing. She is also a neutral party. -NG Human Cleric/Radiant Servant of Pelor (Ollo): My character. I am the primary spellcaster and healer in the party, and I often take a step back to let the rest of the party (namely Adrian) have their time in the spotlight. I try to act as the voice of reason in the party, but Adrian is too loud and ignorant to pay attention. The campaign is a generic campaign, taking place in the nation Ikaslia. The campaign is a very low undead campaign. In fact, we have never had an undead encounter until we were at sixth level, and since I have taken the RSoP PrC, we have never seen another undead encounter. I have had quite the discussion on facebook with Adrian's player, where he has basically taken the stand as the voice of the DM. In the boards above, he has made some posts under the account of kellus. He has described the RSoP as "too powerful for the campaign based on our experiences". I shall also post another message to me that he has sent: At 10th level, you now can get 5 spells a day that are empowered (or are you at maximized yet?). Often in a day, this is all the healing we require. Certainly by the time we get to 20th level, with your 9 Empowered and Maximized spells a day, that will almost certainly be all the healing we use in a day. Thus, despite what you may say about the domain restriction, this feature will apply to almost all of your healing in a day. Imagine this from the DM's perspective. How can he possibly challenge us if you have such incredible healing? What can he throw at us that we have a chance in heck of beating that would actually strain our healing resources. There's nothing. Your other main complaint is that there are almost no undead in this campaign, which makes some parts of the Radiant Servant useless. To this I disagree. The DM was wary before of sending undead at you, since he knew that you could turn or destroy them easily, ending an encounter very quickly. Think of it as a coup de gras. How much fun was that? How much more wary will he be now, with your extra greater turnings and other abilities? I have never received any sort of message from my DM personally, but as Adrian's player has made clear, this is how the DM feels. Basically I feel that the DM and Adrian's player do not enjoy my position in the party. I am almost to the point where I am ready to say "I'm done" and quit the campaign. However, I really enjoy playing as Ollo. Any other opinions?
DarkNick 07-04-07, 08:58 PM	Looks like the deck is stacked against you. The only other option I can think of is to make another character. Personally I would leave. It is not worth the personal conflict. There are better people to play with.
Fatalis_902 07-04-07, 11:04 PM	If you don't like the campaign, but enjoy playing Ollo, take Ollo to your next campaign. These guys(your DM and his brother, that is) are idiots. There are plenty of things that can more than challecge you, and I don't think Arian realizes that you would have to forgo all other domain spells if you wanted to use all 9 Healing domain spells. I admit, the 9th-level Mass Heal spell is a kicker, but beyond that, it is really not alot of healing. Two other Mass spells, and all the others are single targets. Those will disappear fast, and won't necessarily be super-powered at high levels. Cure light Wounds at level 16? A joke, not even worth the domain slot. 1d8+5 damage is less than what you would likely take from an ordinary attack. So, the healing thing isn't overpowered, especially not if the DM knows how to challenge you. As for the undead bit, come on. Turning only destroys undead that have hit dice equal to 1/2 or less than your cleric levels. At low levels that's rare, and at higher levels, there are undead with turn resistance, as well as more than enough hitdce to avoid destruction. About your greater turning ability, big deal. Creatures of higher challenge rating would still have turn resistance. Overall, your DM's brother is probably the one who is pulling the strings behind all of this, because he is scared that you might become more than a side-kick to him. Big Brother DM would never let Lil'Brother get bullied by anyone, including other players who would like a chance to shine in a game where the fun of the majority is more important the fun fun of the one. Take him out, and your problems will all disappear. Alternatively, you could simply have the character go on some sort of spiritual quest(i.e., temporarily retire him), and bring in a Druid, with Natural Spell, and maybe Extra Wildshape. Oh, and Augment Summoning. Show him true power, put him in his place, and then ask if he still believes that the Radiant Servant is too overpowered, when you have something that could easily be core-only that makes the Radiant Servant look like a fighter with a few new tricks. If he continues to resist, bring in Pun-pun.
GrondGala 07-04-07, 11:30 PM	Oh... My god. This is the first time I've EVER heard of a party complaining about their healer being too good at healing. I'd go with Fatalis' suggestion. Send Ollo off to establish a Temple in some backwater town and bring on the DMM: Persisted, Divine Powered, Righteous Mighted, Valiant Furied, Power Attacking, Leap Attacking, Spiked greatclub-wielding, Holy Warrior-6th-level-war-domain-slot-reserving, Karmic Striking CoDzilla of pwn. Pick up a few levels in Ordained Champion so you lose the ability to spontaneously cast healing spells. Don't prepare any either, except enough to keep you swinging. Suggest everyone purchases a 1,000gp diamond, and a scroll of Revivify if they're concerned about the lack of healing. Grab a wand of lesser vigor for in between combat and you're set. Heh, I can just picture it now; "Guys, Ollo's church has tasked him to go and establish a temple to Pelor in Backwaterton. Since I KNOW you guys would NEVER consider a side-quest that revolves around me, heck you wouldn't even help me ATONE... He has enlisted his friend, RAWRSMASH, to help you out in his absence." Even better, make him an Ordained Champ of Hextor and if "Adrian" gives him any lip, pound him into the ground. [Edit : Edited for slightly more win.]
oloknotwise 07-05-07, 01:28 AM	It really came down to me quiting the group. I have had enough of the problems that have occurred. Honestly, I had to deal with the two of them (who say they have different opinions, but both of them tell me I am wrong) both chastising my character. I am tired of the blatant insult because I have created an effective character. BTW, the comment that I posted above from Adrian's play is his own interpretation of the problem and why the RSoP needs to be balanced. The DM refuses to give a reason.
Allarian 07-05-07, 01:57 AM	Before you leave say, "Alright you don't like Ollo, fine he has a heart attack, tragic really. Soooo I'm making a new character....he's a kobold"
GrondGala 07-05-07, 02:25 AM	Shame it had to come down to you quitting, but it sounds like it must be for the best. Good luck finding a group that'll hopefully be a helluva lot more enjoyable than what you've had to endure in *that* monstrosity.
GrondGala 07-05-07, 02:43 AM	At 10th level, you now can get 5 spells a day that are empowered (or are you at maximized yet?). Often in a day, this is all the healing we require. Certainly by the time we get to 20th level, with your 9 Empowered and Maximized spells a day, that will almost certainly be all the healing we use in a day. Thus, despite what you may say about the domain restriction, this feature will apply to almost all of your healing in a day. Imagine this from the DM's perspective. How can he possibly challenge us if you have such incredible healing? What can he throw at us that we have a chance in heck of beating that would actually strain our healing resources. There's nothing. Your other main complaint is that there are almost no undead in this campaign, which makes some parts of the Radiant Servant useless. To this I disagree. The DM was wary before of sending undead at you, since he knew that you could turn or destroy them easily, ending an encounter very quickly. Think of it as a coup de gras. How much fun was that? How much more wary will he be now, with your extra greater turnings and other abilities? I can't get over what a PRAT this guy sounds like. "Often in a day, this is all the healing we require."... OMG! Don't tell me the Cleric can actually cast SOMETHING ELSE?! Surely NOT! Next he'll be wanting to step into melee or something! Gods forbid!
danielinthewolvesden 07-05-07, 03:09 AM	Oh... My god. This is the first time I've EVER heard of a party complaining about their healer being too good at healing. ] Yep, this is silly. The PrC is not overpowered.
Paladin_Hiroshi 07-05-07, 08:02 AM	I think you should say, fine that's ok. I'll make a new character. Make a straight druid 20, or something you really want to play, preferably an arcane caster, or a melee tank. See how long the group lasts without healing. Then use that ridiculous quote when someone argues about it. Tell them they can either watch their hitpoints sink into the nether regions, or they can shut up and let you play properly. They wanted to play hard, that's what they get!
Leilond 07-05-07, 09:47 AM	The game is a matter of "balance". I'm not talking about balance between character, but balance between players You've to find a common place if you want to play with your friends. They cannot force you to play a character you don't like, nor you can force them to play with your character if they don't like it. You've to find a character build that you like and your friend can accept, or you must leave the party Never accept imposition about your character Never impose your character to others Find a character that you and your friend like, or leave. No fight at all there can be on this point.
oloknotwise 07-05-07, 10:24 PM	Well, the DM has asked me not to leave, and would like to see me continue in his campaign, despite the blatant disagreements with my character (I am now too good at healing, as I have been told). So, my solution (or rather the solutions provided by the people on this board) is to just reroll a new character. I would like to be a spellcaster, as Ollo is the primary caster anyways. Do you guys have any suggestions in this group?
Allarian 07-05-07, 10:43 PM	if they think healing is overpowered and complain about it hit them with a druid and never prepare a single healing spell, get natural spell and augmented summoning and wipe the floor with your opponents.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 07-05-07, 11:10 PM	Well, the DM has asked me not to leave, and would like to see me continue in his campaign, despite the blatant disagreements with my character (I am now too good at healing, as I have been told). So, my solution (or rather the solutions provided by the people on this board) is to just reroll a new character. I would like to be a spellcaster, as Ollo is the primary caster anyways. Do you guys have any suggestions in this group? *Smiles evilly* I think we can come up with something....welcome to the darkside....what type of caster would you like? Arcane blaster, something that melts their opponents into nothingness? Maybe you'd like to charm everyone to be your friend? Perhaps you'd like the ultimate power that is summon nature's alley? Just tell me what your looking for... we'll make it happen. Personal I would advise doing something about the little brother. here try this: 1) sit him down in a chair, and say, "steve your being a douge bag. Stop it, stop it now. 2) If and when he begins go on about the RSOP is broken, hit him with the chair. Then repeat steps one and two as needed. I've heard some stupid crap in my day, but too much healing? From the front line guy? What the hell kinda drugs is he smoking? Anyways if you ever get tired of the spotlight hog, and want a game were the healer is appropriated, then look me up next time your in the Regina area.
DarkNick 07-05-07, 11:52 PM	I think this is a good move making up a new character. If it is still crap you can always quit later. I would go with any spell cater that does not heal... I rekon a druid is a good choice. You will be able to hold your own, also you know that they can't complain about something as basic as a druid. They are a versitile class with heaps of options. Play him well and you will naturally shine above the others. You can even save some healing for yourself and animal companion. "what! a mighty ranger such as yourself has no need of healing, *sniff* I will be in my tent if any animal needs me..."
IceFractal 07-06-07, 03:08 AM	There's a feat in Heroes of Horror which lets you put metamagic on your spells by dealing ability damage to your allies. Take it! Then when people complain, say: "But I'm making the encounters more challenging! That's a good thing, right?" Or, more practically, play a Shaper/Constructor. For your powers (besides Astral Construct), go for defensive ones and things like Wall of Ectoplasm. Then when the fight starts, manifest tons of Astral Constructs. But don't send them into battle - just keep them next to you for defense. After that, manifest some personal defenses and use Wall of Ectoplasm to make a small fortress to hide in. If anyone tells you to send the constructs in to help, explain that you don't want to "overpower" the encounter. They should be happy to be challenged.
Tytalus 07-06-07, 03:59 AM	I have to question the maturity of posters suggesting "play something uber powerful and really show them all" (or even advocating physical violence). :rolleyes: It just doesn't work that way. You'll end up potentially ruining the fun for everyone involved and if you are really interested in a good game, such suggestions are highly counter-productive. I'd suggest a self-sufficient character (such as a Crusader, if ToB is allowed) or a defensive arcane caster (Perhaps an Abjurer, with an eye on the Master Specialist / Initiate of the 7-fold Veil PrCs, if you want to be high-powered). This will 'show' them anyway: the lack of healing in the group should be noticeable, but you can still have fun - and nobody can blame you for it.
jasonbrisbane 07-06-07, 04:50 AM	Ok, I have to step in here. I'm 36 years old and have been playing DND for longer than I care to remember (ok 19 years!) I say "Screw them". Who the hell claims that the HEALER is too powerful for the game??? When the hell does the DM care about the Healer?? Shouldnt he be looking after the Campaign and not the Characters?? Or is he planing on wiping the floor with you guys and needs the Healer to be out of the game to make his story fit?? The ONLY reasoning that I can come up with is that he needs to railroad you! I say make a MEGA Min-Max'ed Tank (or Druid), bulk up on damage spells with the possibility of healing only yourself (I dont know if there are PrC or Feats that allow this) and let them all die. Then say you want to retire that character and bring back the Healer. See how fast they jump at the healer then! If the Dm is too narrow minded to accompany the Players suggestions then the issue is his DM'ing style, not the type of Character you are playing. ANY half-Decent Dm can add in a monster (or at worst two) that would compensate for the Healer.. Heck, a Deathlock (Libris mortis, I believe) that casts Magic missile at the Healer, disrupting his spells is enough (at CR4). Is that monster that hard to insert? Make him invisible and casting from hiding... Regards, Annoyed-for-You-DM.
Drag0nUL 07-06-07, 07:33 AM	First of all I have to agree with everyone else that the reasons you are given for being overpowered are stupid. Even 9 maximized empowered spells per day won't be enough to heal a high level party engaged in heavy fighting (I've seen how you can exhaust the healing resources of a 20th level druid+17th level cleric+17th level archivist in only 3-4 encounters so it isn't that hard). Secondly you are overpowered for that campaign. The reason is that you are the only one playing a full spellcaster. And at level 10 you already have spells that make most non-spellcasters look like silly babies. You would have to take a very laid-back and conservative approach to combat in order not to overshadow the rest.
Fatalis_902 07-06-07, 08:40 AM	I have to question the maturity of posters suggesting "play something uber powerful and really show them all" (or even advocating physical violence). :rolleyes: It just doesn't work that way. You'll end up potentially ruining the fun for everyone involved and if you are really interested in a good game, such suggestions are highly counter-productive. You may notice that the first advice in the thread has nothing to do with breaking the campaign in two, or physical violence. Usually. There are some exceptions, like when we get a smart player with a moronic DM, and the player has tried talking first, then we open with physial violence. Point is, these threads are always opened with good, positive advice, such as the all-to-commonly overlooked, "TALK WITH THE FREAKING DM/PLAYER!!" It's when that doesn't work that we begin advocating violence, either against people or the campaign. We just get a kick out of it. We realize that it is bad advice, we just find it funny.
Karanth 07-06-07, 12:12 PM	You may notice that the first advice in the thread has nothing to do with breaking the campaign in two, or physical violence. Usually. There are some exceptions, like when we get a smart player with a moronic DM, and the player has tried talking first, then we open with physical violence. Point is, these threads are always opened with good, positive advice, such as the all-to-commonly overlooked, "TALK WITH THE FREAKING DM/PLAYER!!" It's when that doesn't work that we begin advocating violence, either against people or the campaign. We just get a kick out of it. We realize that it is bad advice, we just find it funny. QFT. Its always nice to advocate beatings. Plus, are you dead-set on casters? Might I suggest a monk of some sort? I mean, if healing is OMGWTFPWNAGE like they say, play a character that meshes much closer with what the DMPC... er, DMs' brother plays. You know, a Monk. Grapple, chew, maim, that whole deal. Plus, if PK time hits, even with a nice Dex, you should have no trouble 'hugging' him within inches of his life, or playing the Spring Attack game. Or, how about using that old standby, the "Evoker with Bad Eyesight"? Nothing says love like shouting, "Fire in the hole!" while lobbing slightly mis-aimed Fireballs, or Cones of Cold, or.... Oh, and there is my favorite: The Paladin. If a Paladin can't derail this, even by accident, you are asleep at the table. Now, all of these MIGHT look like asshat suggestions, but I always believe in idiocy rebounding.
Tago 07-06-07, 12:33 PM	I have a RSoP in the one campaign I am in now. It is definatly more powerful then straight cleric when you look at what you give vs what you get but I wouldn't call it broken by any means. It does make healing a little easier (but besides a paladin/kensi and ranger I am the only healer in the group of 7) and makes many undead encounters trivial. Also Heal and Mass Heal get no benefit from the max/empower. Is it a good class that gives you more benefits for the cost (1 hp/lvl and having to take extra turning)? Yes. Can it alter the course of the game? In an undead heavy game yes. Otherwise it shouldn't. As an alternative to rolling a new character I would ask if you can rebuild him w/o radiant servant (and take something else instead of extra turning). You will still be very good compared to the others but that is because you are playing a cleric. It will also "show" them that the prestige class isn't broken. (I wouldn't do an DMM: Persistant cheese either) Although they then come to the conclusion that cleric is broken and ask you to play an adept to be the healer.
Kaurus 07-07-07, 11:01 AM	Copy from Balancing the Radiant Servant of Pelor http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=875548&page=2 Your Problem is making me LOL (well the people in your group make me laugh even harder) Get in contact with RainerNader http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=878581 Do not swap groups but get his build and play a Cleric of Kord and do not heal for a few sessions (I think your party can mitigate damage very good so maybe they need this extra thrill). Or just play someone who can´t heal, but see to it that you can heal yourself (healbot cohort or potions) maybe a Babarian would be kicking ass and you could just find out if Kels problem really is wanting the spotlight for his character (Babarians kill very badly as far as my experienced it [and can not be Sneak Attacked ;) in case someone should start inqroup fights]). And even better: a Babarian would still have way better chances against undead and constructs (get a greatclub in addition to your Greataxe) then the rouges :evillaugh and is non lawfull or even chaotic and would fit into your groups behaviour very good :) Then somebody else can see to it that your group has someone who knows something about magic and can fix up nasty wounds. And your DM not beeing able to stage dangerous encounters ? OMG ! And this "you could turn them, that´s the reason that I do not stage undead", did your group ever encounter any "non-constructs" ? I think it is always very annoying for a DM that living creatures get Sneak Attacked as many times as possible and are dead very quickly after the encounter started . . . .
Pyro_Azer 07-07-07, 01:10 PM	There has got to be an out of game rason for this. Anyway, if they are complaining about your charecter being over powered do the following: 1 Retire your charecter and build a new one. Do not get rid of the charecter sheet. 2 Build something meant to be way overpowered. 3 when they start complaining say "would you like me to play ollo again?"
Toran_A_Sunder 07-07-07, 01:53 PM	Something I want to mention. If your DM told you flat out that the reason he doesn't add undead is because you can turn them...well...he is a ****wad and deserves to be pimp slapped with both the PHB, the DMG, and the DMGII. Especially the DMGII which gives DMs advice on how NOT to DM in a way that takes away the fun of the players. This guy is obviously favoring his little brother who is probably a spoiled brat and has to get his way all the time and be the center of attention. "Well, adventuring is a team effort little boy, and you need to go play with your power rangers or GI Joes if you're gonna whine cus other people can do things that you cant." That's what I'd tell him. Tell your DM that you finally see what he is talking about, but because you don't want to take your cleric in any other direction, you're just going to retire him and bring in someone new. Then make your druid or wizard or something that will pwn the crap out of the group, and either wont or cant heal, then tell the party that they're all morons for thinking that too much healing is a bad thing. Then grab the PHB, throw it ninja-star style at the DMs head, and go find a new group. Obviously this is a group of retarded-ass players who think too much healing is overpowered, and I'd be ****** off if I were you that no one is standing up with me against such a craptastic DM. Happy gaming.
dabrowns 07-07-07, 07:22 PM	I think playing a different, optimised character is a bad idea. If they have it in their heads that Ollo is too powerful, then trumping Ollo will simply change their grudge against you rather than the character. Plus you seem to really LIKE Ollo! Continue tp play Ollo for a few sessions but DO NOT HEAL THE OTHER CHARACTERS UNLESS THEY SPECIFICALLY ASK FOR IT. 1) The little bro's arguement will lack credibility when you reply "What do you mean? You ASKED me to heal you!! If you feel it is bad for the game, why on earth would ASK me to do it? 2) It will quickly show just how much a healer cleric is needed! especially when you say "Okay, we're all pretty beat up, why dont we rest for the night. I could sure use (level*2) in hit points." Then sit back and see how fast they beg you to start healing them again..... Then when the GM says the RSOP is overpowered simply point out that you havent even used any of the class abilities recently, so whatever it is he thinks is overpowered had to come from somewhere else!
oloknotwise 07-07-07, 10:44 PM	Then when the GM says the RSOP is overpowered simply point out that you havent even used any of the class abilities recently, so whatever it is he thinks is overpowered had to come from somewhere else! Yeah, that was part of my rebuttal. However, I am completely out of ideas. Yeah, I love playing Ollo, because the party heavily relies on my spellcasting abilities. Come to think of it, however, I do you my prepared spells a lot more often then you would think of it. I often get chances to really dish out some good buffing with a few Prayer spells or good defense with a Mass Shield of Faith (Spell Compendium) rather than wasting a lot of spells for spontaneous Cure ______ Wounds spells. This is even after getting the ability to cast the Empowered spells in my domain slot (usually the average day has me preparing Cure Moderate and Serious wounds in the domain slots while the rest are left to the Sun domain spells). I may be good at healing, but it is rare to find the rest of the party seriously suffering. At the end of an encounter I usually would ask if the other party members need healing (I include myself in such matters), and most the replies I get are "maybe one cure mod. and cure light is more than enough". Maybe I am not too good at healing but the rest of the party is too powerful or the DM is not sending appropriate encounters. I think the former is true because I know that some encounters we have faced are above our party level, and yet we have come out generally unharmed. That is, unless we get separated.
Fatalis_902 07-07-07, 11:14 PM	Well, if that's the case, then the problem has nothing to do with you being to powerful, you're right, the rest of the party is apparently well optimized, and the DM clearly is having trouble compensating. Of course, if that's true, then I have no idea where his lil' bro's getting his ideas of you being too good at healing are coming from, unless he's just the DM's messenger boy.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 07-08-07, 12:02 AM	Maybe I am not too good at healing but the rest of the party is too powerful or the DM is not sending appropriate encounters. I think the former is true because I know that some encounters we have faced are above our party level, and yet we have come out generally unharmed. That is, unless we get separated. Based on your description of the party I would have to say that it is the latter. Or maybe the DM just isn't using the monsters as effectively as he could be. I'm sorry, but neither RosP, shawdo dancer, arcane archer, nor dervish are all that impressive mechanically. If you guys are having fun with it, don't let me tell differently. However if you are buffing more then your healing, maybe you want to focus on that a bit? Try going with reach spell, quicken spell, divine meta magic reach, divine quicken spell, and extra turning. This would let you burn turn undead attempts to power your meta magic feats, and quicken lets you fire off two buffs in combat. Reach would let you throw them 30ft. Also going into the future you may want to consider extend spell, persistent spell, and divine metamagic versions of those to increase the buffs duration. For levels I'd recommend straight cleric. Well, if that's the case, then the problem has nothing to do with you being to powerful, you're right, the rest of the party is apparently well optimized, and the DM clearly is having trouble compensating. Of course, if that's true, then I have no idea where his lil' bro's getting his ideas of you being too good at healing are coming from, unless he's just the DM's messenger boy. He's the Dms something little boy anyways...JJ.
Kaurus 07-08-07, 03:04 PM	Well I´m quite certain that there is some problem with wanting to play some Übercharacter on Kels side and what could be worse than having to rely on some whimpy priest to get healed / buffed ? The party I am a part of is really having easy fights, because we have a bard in our group, who often uses his songs and casts speed on us in fights that seem like they could take longer than 3 or 4 rounds (so they take only this long with us beeing able to smash heads even faster ;)) and he uses "battlefield control" too (like greasing the enemies). We could be depressed, but I´m just curious how we will do in harder fights (he sometimes is a little sad, because he´s not a good fighter when compared to the others, but he is important). What especially do you like about being a caster ? The buffing ? Or having an important position ? Maybe that is nagging Kel, that he can´t take away these spotlights from you . . . If your problem persists even after trying all our suggestions (or just some of them ;)) ask the reasonable players in your group if they would like to be in a second group and participate in playing with other peoples in addition to this group. Look for another group and have fun there, but stay in your old group (if you have enough time), than you have an alternative and your able to choose in case you notice that you have only time for one group (and if you stay in both groups, it will be easier to be happy in the not so good group, because you do not depend on it so much anymore).
oloknotwise 07-19-07, 12:47 AM	Well, I did come to the conclusion that Ollo is not a character that the DM and Kel enjoy having in the group. I enjoyed playing Ollo because he was the primary spellcaster in the group, and many times my spellcasting has proven to be effective. As for the rest of the party, they found themselves having roles generally doubled up on, our main fighter is also a very effective roguish character, and the archer was a very good melee character as well. Despite my desire to play as Ollo, I have decided to take him out of the campaign and create a new character. However, we have also now taken on two more players (see below). So, now what? What is a good recommendation for our group? The new players: -TN Human Druid (Elleth): Once an NPC in the campaign, she has now been taken over by Rye's younger sister. With Ollo gone, I could see her becoming the primary healer in the group. -CN _______ Duskblade (???): He is also new, but we are not sure as to what race he will play as. Otherwise, he will be another effective melee character with good spellcasting capabilities. He will most likely be an elf. As a side note, I am not too keen on being another support character. Ollo provided a lot of support along with healing and other things. Therefore, bard is not really what I want to play. Nor am I sure I want to be a melee fighter, since we now have two (three if you include Thearia). In another campaign (with the same group of people, but a different DM) I am playing a wizard. One idea I came up with was a beguiler, possibly with Kenku (MMIII), Teifling or Changeling as the race. However, I am very open to other possibilities. Books we have: All Cores (including XPH), MMII, MMIII, CD, CM, CA, CAd, Heroes of Horror, CPs, ToB, ToM, CW, Champions of Ruin, PHBII, DMGII, Dragonmagic, Stormwrack, and Cityscape.
bobothechimp 07-19-07, 01:06 AM	He is complaining about the amount of healing you can do? A cleric is not a heal-bot! That's what wands of Cure Light Wounds are for!
Tytalus 07-19-07, 04:44 AM	Again, my advice: in such a party that doesn't value support roles, play something self-sufficient and survivable. Crusader is fantastic in this respect, but a sneaky arcane caster like a beguiler would help, too. General advice for playing primary casters: stay away from LA. I.e., no Tiefling.
Lotusblossom 07-19-07, 04:49 AM	A fighter complaining that his healer is too powerful is like a helicopter pilot complaining that his maintenance technician is too skilled.
Yokomohoyo 07-19-07, 04:53 AM	Play a Necromatic Cleric or a V.O.P Monk instead... You'll be able to heal your self and if you choose the cleric option play him stingy with the heals since they don't want to heal them... After a few battles they will be begging you to go back to your old ways.
Fatalis_902 07-19-07, 08:53 AM	However, we have also now taken on two more players (see below). So, now what? What is a good recommendation for our group? The new players: -TN Human Druid (Elleth): Once an NPC in the campaign, she has now been taken over by Rye's younger sister. With Ollo gone, I could see her becoming the primary healer in the group. Waitwaitwaitwait, hang on. This Kel has a problem with a cleric, and now a Druid is joining? I foresee limitless issues sprining from this.
Lordofthe9 07-19-07, 10:33 AM	Provided you feel confident that your DM will be fair in a fight between players I say it's high time to actually use these "restrictions" that are in place to show the true power of your class... Since this Adrian character is obviously acting contrary to the principles your DM is forcing you to be an advocate for I say you beat the tar out of him. Provided you built your cleric even "below average" you should be able to completely destroy the Drizzt wannabe and make him cry. Theres something about bringing the high and mighty to their knees that seems to summon the feel goods. Just as a disclaimer, I'm all for "working it out" and "discussion", but it seems that this guy has done all that. If you are thinking you might leave at least leave on your own terms and serve some humble pie.
Kaurus 07-19-07, 10:43 AM	A fighter complaining that his healer is too powerful is like a helicopter pilot complaining that his maintenance technician is too skilled. Very good :) I like this metaphor very much ! These potent and fragile things ;)
Ikyotojin 07-19-07, 10:59 AM	For what it's worth here is how my players have handled things: Fighter - played by my oldest son. He's the tank and actually has some powerful weapons and kill skills... but is useless at range. Ranger - son's friend. He's balanced and damn good with a bow. Also has a bow that will pretty well ace anything on a critical as long as it doesn't have SR and screws up it's FORT roll. Cleric - my wife's character. You need healing? You know where to go. And her goddess lets her use a long sword and shield, so she can take care of herself. Rouge - the youngest son. He is better with a bow than most, but is a fighter/rouge so he's lagging in some aspects. The PLAYERS have had their characters start following the cleric's deity. Why? Cause that's the nice lady who patches us up and has brought a couple of them back from their "forced vacation" to the land of the dead. The cleric doesn't run the party, nor does the fighter. They suggest, the party decides. When the cleric thinks it would be a good idea for the party to stick around in a small town and maybe gain some converts, the party sticks around for a while... Until there is more pressing work. Clerics are a pipeline to the gods in a setting where they actually make their power known. Tell the party that your character has priestly obligations to do and unless they are wiling to show a little respect to the power of your god, they can make do with band-aids and bubblegum! And as a DM of slightly over 30 years - your DM and his brother are idiots. They need to let others participate or just lock themselves in the house and practice giving each other... No... I won't finish that sentence. That would be a bad thing to say...
On_the_wings_of_TPK 07-19-07, 02:39 PM	what do you want to do? Front line? devine headbonking? Arcane blasting? stabby-stabbity in the back? Huck lightning around? Punch people with your bear fists? Fly into a rage and scream HULK SMASH!!!!! you tell us what type of charcter you want to run, I'll give you suggestions based on that.
oloknotwise 07-19-07, 04:22 PM	what do you want to do? Front line? devine headbonking? Arcane blasting? stabby-stabbity in the back? Huck lightning around? Punch people with your bear fists? Fly into a rage and scream HULK SMASH!!!!! you tell us what type of charcter you want to run, I'll give you suggestions based on that. Well, when I look at the group, we are in need of an arcane spellcaster. I am sort of at a loss for ideas, however, in how to create a character that will be able to shine in the group without creating another problem by being "too good at ________" (I hear a lot of people who are saying that in this sort of group, it is impossible). I already play a Conjurer specializing in summoning monsters in another campaign, so summoner-type arcane casters is out of the question. To be honest, I need a bit of guidance right now. This whole situation with my RSoP has left me in a state of complete disbelief.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 07-19-07, 05:25 PM	Personally I'd just leave the group, but then thats me. As for your character, what do you think about blasting? Its simple, effective, and not that optimized from a power gamers stand point. BY not optimized, I mean to say that summoning, and battle field control are more optimized. There are lots of ways to blast: 1) Wizard. Can learn all spells on his list, if he has the time, and resources. But has fewer spell slots/day then his sorcerer counter part. He also has to prepare his spells on a daily basouse, but because he'll know more spells in general he is the most versatile of all the arcane casters. 2) Sorcerer. Gets more spells per day then the wizard, but knows less of them. It also has less feats then the wizard. It does not however have to prepare its spells ahaed of time. And becuase it can learn off the wizard/sorcerer list it is slightly more versatile then the warmage. However the warmage will know more spells, and does not need to prepare them ahead of time, which makes the warmage a better choice. 3) Warmage. Has a sorcerers progression for spells, and knows all spells on its list. Also has the same amount of spells/day as a sorcerer. It also has some nice abilities like warmage edge, and able to cast while wearing light armor. Has a d6 HD. 4) warlock. It knows very few, technically no, spells. It does however learn 12 invocations, over the course of 20 levels. These invocations are spell like abilities that it can use at will. Meaning that it will never run out of spells. Add to that its eldritch blast, it can be a very attractive choice for a blaster caster. Its down side is however in its very limited list of known invocations, and point for point actual spells tend to be stronger. 5) Wu-jen a wu-jen is like a wizard except that it has slightly more abilities, and bonus feats. It however has a smaller list of spells available. The spells on it are for the most part different then the wizards too. 6) Psionics. Not technically "arcane casting" but just as good. In fact much of the psionic powers mimic arcane spells. It also does not need to prepare its powers ahead of time. Also I find it to very versatile, especially for blasting. I say that because of 2 things. 1) augmentation allows you to control the amount of resources expanded in a fight. Energy ray can be shot at someone for 1d6, or 20d6, just depends on how many power points you want to spend, and your manifestor level. The other neat thing about them is that their blast spells let you specify the damage type. For example energy ray can be shot off dealing either; fire, electric, cold, or sonic. Were as spell like scorching ray is only fire damage. If it were me, and you want to blast, then I'd go with either psion or warmage, buts just me. If you want to be more generalised then I'd go with a wizard, or wu-jen.
Saxis 07-19-07, 06:10 PM	I've been chuckling to myself all the way through this... If they think RSoP is overpowered healing, tell them you're going to make a Healer, from the MiniHB. Ask to use the Living Greyhalk rules for Healers (that's gotta be balanced, right?) so you get the Vigor line of spells on your list. Then take Heighten Spell, Extend Spell and Augment Healing. Heighten a couple 5th level Vigorous Circles to 8th level, and Extend them in your 9th level slots. That's right... do it. Then cast Healthful Rest, followed by one of those Vigorous circles. Now everyone in the party has 40 rounds of Fast Healing (3 + Cha Mod + 16) X 2. If you have a Charisma of 12, that's Fast Healing 40, for 40 rounds, which can target 17 creatures, each healing for 1600, or right around 40x40x17 = 27,200 Healing total... for ONE spell. This has already been ruled upon even. Take your Charisma through the roof. Say 30/+10. That's Fast Healing 58 for 40 rounds. You don't even need 9th level slots to do this... At level 9 you could just cast a normal Augmented 5th level Vigorous Circle with Healthful rest. A Charisma of 14 should be easy to get. Fast Healing 30 right there.
Keiichi_m 07-19-07, 07:58 PM	Hey, you're in Edmonton, I'm in Edmonton if you can game Wednesdays healing is always appreciated.
Alyri 07-19-07, 08:21 PM	Looking at the first post and seeing the group make up, lets put the group in different terms. 4 people, 3 or which are punk rockers and the other 1 is a classical musician. My big question is why play a RSoP for in the first place? It doesn't fit the group, doesn't fit the campaign...... And why the need to have the 'spotlight shine on you' ?