Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rafe_113 11-13-06, 12:10 PM	I've got a quick question about how to approach my DM. He's a nice enough guy, and I don't want to make him mad, but I'm pretty sure he's fudging his rolls. Last game, he rolled *no bull* 17 critical hits. The game before that he rolled 13 crits. The game before that, a whopping 24 crits!!! Is it even mathmatically possible to roll that many crits? I have witnessed a player roll five, yes FIVE, 20's in a row just messing around before a game. And the odds of that are astounding. But to roll 54 confirmed crits in approx. eight hours of combat over three weeks seems a bit much to me. Am I just blowing things out of proportion, or should I be concerened that the DM is going above and beyond in the realm of fudging?
PHGraves 11-13-06, 12:15 PM	The way I see it, if a man's life is such that he has to cheat at a game with no real reward, let him.
Shaggy_Shaggs 11-13-06, 12:15 PM	Dice can be freaky, but DMs can also cheat. Which one is happening is tough to call at this point. Suggest that everyone, DM included, roll everything out in the open. Assure him (and mean it) that you won't lose your composure if a weird turn of luck destroys you unexpectedly and he can't fake it didn't happen. If he gets defensive it may be time to become suspicious.
Toloran 11-13-06, 12:44 PM	Fudging rolls is (IMO) perfectly acceptible if it is to keep a PC from dying (ie, fudging a death blow so that it doesn't hit or a critical hit so that it isn't a crit anymore). I also (occasionally) fudge the other way to make combat more interesting (Expecially if the combat has been going way to easy because of my bad rolls). However, if your DM IS doing what you say, then I suggest making a casual comment about how weird that was. If he continues to do it, ask if you can have him roll attack rolls out in the open (since it really doesn't make a difference most of the time anyway). Also, keep in mind that 17 crits in one game DO happen occasionally. I once saw someone (with my own dice) roll 6 100s (on a d% roll) in a row. Last night, My DM rolled 3 100s in a row and we managed to run into a pair of Noble Genie (or whatever they are called, the chaotic good ones).
Puca 11-13-06, 12:46 PM	Are those crits killing PCs, or just making things a bit more challenging? Im guessing there havent been any TPKs as a result of this, or it would have been included in your post. Im not saying that this is the best way to go, but sometimes PCs can be a lot more powerful or effective than a DM would have thought, and maybe this is how he is trying to keep it challenging. Thats just a thought, but I would consider the effect of the fudging and the possible legitimate motives for it before getting worried about it.
Romtos 11-13-06, 02:12 PM	13 crits, 17 crits and 24 crits. Let's put that into perspective. Let's say he's playing fair. 5% change of rolling a twenty. Let's say 20% of those 5% is actually a crit. That's 1% of every roll. 24 crits means 2400 attack rolls. Let's that 6 rounds of combat with an avarage of 4 monsters. Total of 100 combats. Even if you change these numers (make a combat 3 rounds, less monsters, or easier to crit), you'll still be stuck with 50+ combats. Yup, if this happens frequently, he's cheating. Of course there is a change this just...happens. Or his d20 sucks (or rocks) big time.:)
Elemental_Elf 11-13-06, 02:37 PM	Maybe all of the enemies you faced were Crit oriented enemies? I mean if they were all using Improved Critical with Swords then he may just be getting very lucky but it would be with in the rules. Is he confirming for Crits? Because if not then, yeah, there's your problem. If he is than he's prolly doin it to make a better challenge for you guys, though that many fudged crits are way too much, I'd just do max or near max damage on each hit. :D
CausticWit 11-13-06, 02:37 PM	An important thing to note is the type of opponents you have been fighting and under what circumstances. If you are fighting hordes of little monsters with class levels more crits will happen. If you are fighting against things with scimitars or the improved critical feat, more crits will happen. If there are mitigating factors that could explain this then there you go. From the tone of your post however this is probobly not the case. As a player I would ask myself what the purpose of those crits were. Were they occasions to be overly cinematic and make the game more lively? were they making encounters last longer and be of greater challenge? Or were they just there for the DM to score big. Most importantly however is how the players responded to these rolls. If everyone came out alive and well and better because or in spite of the crits I fail to see a drastic problem. If this lack of realism in the crits however detracts from the game only then should you talk to the DM.
trapspringer 11-13-06, 02:39 PM	I've got a quick question about how to approach my DM. He's a nice enough guy, and I don't want to make him mad, but I'm pretty sure he's fudging his rolls. Last game, he rolled *no bull* 17 critical hits. The game before that he rolled 13 crits. The game before that, a whopping 24 crits!!! Is it even mathmatically possible to roll that many crits? I have witnessed a player roll five, yes FIVE, 20's in a row just messing around before a game. And the odds of that are astounding. But to roll 54 confirmed crits in approx. eight hours of combat over three weeks seems a bit much to me. Am I just blowing things out of proportion, or should I be concerened that the DM is going above and beyond in the realm of fudging? I do that to my players all the time (not the fudging, the high rolling). I roll really well some times. Some people are just flukey. Further, depending on who or what you are fighting, critical hits may not be that uncommon. I throw a lot of NPC guys at my players to encourage the use of dynamic combat abilities (like disarm and trip). If I hammered out a crit-monkey build for some kind of specialist warrior guild, I'd roll a lot of criticals, too.
RobbyPants 11-13-06, 03:08 PM	I've actually had the opposite happen a lot, and it's equally unsatisfying. The DM and I play 1-on-1, so if I die, the campaign dies. He has a habit of throwing me up agains challenges that are way too tough, because he gets bored with low-level fights, but he wants me to start a level 1. Things like, I'm 3rd level, and I have to solo fight a 3rd level ogre barbarian! That's basically, a mirror of me, with 4 RHD and a +10 Str bonus! What's he think is going to happen!?! So, what end's up happening is, law of averages kickes in, I get pwned into the single diget HP, he rolls an attack roll and says "how many HP do you have?" How obvious is that? He's taken to tracking my HP on his own so he knows, and it's amazing how often I get missed once my HP get low. I've told him a couple of times that it's taken the thrill out of the game for me. I can basically do whatever I want now, because I know that if he's thrown me up against it, it can (and will) be beaten.
olshanski_home 11-13-06, 03:23 PM	I'd rather die from a crazy critical hit with a greataxe rolled in the open, than win several "exciting" battles due to DM fudging to make sure the battle came down to the wire. I had a DM that hit nearly every time, often critical, at the beginning of every battle. Once a character was in single-digit HP (or negative), then the DM would suddenly start missing every time until the creature was killed. I am in favor of open rolling, regardless of what side of the table I am on.
Tyler Do'Urden 11-13-06, 03:31 PM	Is it even mathmatically possible to roll that many crits?Sure, it's mathematically possible, but it is sufficiently unlikely that you can be fairly certain that he's cheating. In any case...Nothin' says lovin' like a shotgun blast to the chest.
trapspringer 11-13-06, 03:39 PM	I am in favor of open rolling, regardless of what side of the table I am on. I used to do that all the time, becuase frankly I don't fudge rolls. I have a fairly high casualty rate, really. The problem is players begin to revers engineer the stats of the creature to such a degree as is implausible. I don't mind lettin' them know, ball park, what he rolled because I have always viewed the numbers as an expression of the reality of the game, but I draw that line when they start throwing out percentage of hit for bad guys they run into when they are low-level wizards with the less combat experience than a Nun.
RobbyPants 11-13-06, 03:52 PM	I used to do that all the time, becuase frankly I don't fudge rolls. I have a fairly high casualty rate, really. The problem is players begin to revers engineer the stats of the creature to such a degree as is implausible. Good point. I don't know that I would have forseen that until it happened! :eek: Even normally, the players can guess the baddie's AC easily enough (PC1: "I hit AC 14 does that hit?", DM: "No.", PC2: "I hit AC 15, does that hit?", DM: "yes"). Hmmmm... I wonder what its AC is? But, yeah, as you said, seeing the rolls would allow them to reverse engineer things like the baddie's attack bonus, saving throws, damage bonus, etc... It would become very easy to assess risks and threats in the future once they've done that. Of course, any player with a MM and a good memory can do the same to any standard monster you throw at them. I do that all the time without even trying.
DarknessEternal 11-13-06, 04:13 PM	You're only one person. The DM is everyone else in the universe. He rolls considerably more attacks than your party combined. He will critical seemingly more often because of this.
Rafe_113 11-13-06, 04:17 PM	We've never been TPK'd, but I'd say, on average, at least 2 of the 4 party members ends up dead by the end of any given adventure. Crits happen, that's a given, but for every 4th or 5th roll to be a crit..... And to make things worse, he plays with a tough variant of mass damage. Any time a creature, PC or "monster", takes damage equal to or greater than 1/3 of their total hit points, they have to make a fortitude save (10 + 1/2 damage dealt) or be knocked unconcious for 1d4 rounds. In one encounter, we (four 9th lvl characters) were owned by a group of three, yes three, 3rd lvl Kobolds weilding short spears. The wizard survived. *Go figure* That's just down right embarassing. I'm gonna go cry for a second.........:weep:
3erocks 11-13-06, 04:59 PM	Is anyone in your group cheating?. I only fudge (and i must say i hate doing it) when someone is blatantly cheating. But i wont target everyone just the cheating bastard.
Alcari Ambaron 11-13-06, 05:40 PM	54 crits in a row? The odds of that happening are 1 in 1.8×10^70 well, it MIGHT happen, but then again, a whale and a pot of flower might fall out of the sky. just rolling 54 crits is a lot simpler. just 20 x 54 = 1 080 which is manageble, not counting the confirmation roll of course. though 1080 rolls is still an insane ammount of turns.
was_fired 11-13-06, 05:45 PM	It is possible if your fighting really strong enemies who focus on critical hits. If he is using scimitar wielding foes with improved critical who confirm their rolls on a 6 or better the odds of a critical hit are still only 22.5% per attack. Meaning an average of 240 attack rolls needed to be made by such enemies in order for this number to show up on average. Given that you said that 54 hits happened within 8 hours of combat that means that the DM had to be rolling an average of two attack rolls per minute of combat. Since the average player takes about two minutes to complete his turn if the DM takes just as long in a group with 4 players and 1 DM this would mean the DM would have to be rolling 10 attacks on his turn. I have run players against enough enemies to make that possible, but nothing that could confirm a critical on a 6. Such an enemy would likely be too powerful for a group to defeat when outnumbered and as such fudging would most likely be required in order to keep the group alive. Given that fudging is required on either side in order for the math to work out I do agree with you that odds are the DM is fudging.
Shaggy_Shaggs 11-14-06, 04:35 AM	I'd rather die from a crazy critical hit with a greataxe rolled in the open, than win several "exciting" battles due to DM fudging to make sure the battle came down to the wire.Just want to throw in my agreement with this, words like these aren't hollow. A fighter of mine surviving a crit that took him to -16, and should've been a valiant death in defense of the party, was actually the last straw that influenced me to leave a group I found too heavy on DM-handwaving.
Rahlious 11-14-06, 10:39 AM	^agreed Our group agrees to have the DM roll in the open. When the DM rolls poorly and when he rolls well, we just have to live with it.
Morrowner 11-14-06, 11:15 AM	54 confirmed crits in 8 hours of playing? Unless that was almost non-stop combat against players focused on critting and confirming with some wonky house rules thrown in the mix its time to politely call b.s. on the DM.
Balseraph 11-15-06, 03:41 PM	The last time I rolled multiple confirmed crits in a single session against my players was when there were a total of three in a single game. Those crits were in a single combat too, but they were scimitar wielders, so it's really only slightly lucky, not very lucky. I'll roll critical threats fairly often, at least as often as I roll below a three :P Confirming them? Not so often. So yeah, I think your DM is cheating ;)
AmariltheBard 11-15-06, 04:30 PM	The only times i have fudged some rolls (in pcs favour) was when they got in a fight before a boss fight, and one had low health so when he took a high dmg roll, I brought it down by 2 so he only went to -8 instead of -10 (instant death)...he got healed then but later got killed...he deserved it (off topic) he attacked the boss with sneak, but didnt do much dmg so i said he stabbed the guy in the arm, so when its the bosses turn im wondering who to attack, the guy right in front just got res'd and then the rogue who stabbed the boss says you know hed probably attack me eh?!, so i attacked him he had 5hp, with his luck i get a crit, natural 20. So i roll dmg, 6, and 8...plus 5 (x2) for Str....HE GOT OWNED lol...the other pcs still make fun of him for asking for it, and always make sure he plays when they go to dungeons...lol
Sphyre 11-15-06, 06:57 PM	or should I be concerened that the DM is going above and beyond in the realm of fudging? Rarely should a fudged roll result in a crit. While it's statistically possible, it's also very low. Fudging should be completly invisible to the players. As others have said in the thread, have him roll in the open. What's the point in him even rolling if he always rolls a 20? What's the point in you playing if you know everything always will crit you? Not much. Good luck, every situation is different. Sometimes you resolve the issue, sometimes you have to move on to better people.
dragonfire8974 11-15-06, 09:01 PM	this is really funny. my players picked a fight with some superior foes. quite a couple, so we decided arena match, one right after the other, ascending power because that's just like all the other video game. yea, this was supposed to be a TPK, but it didn't happen. i don't know how many 1s i rolled (one's are fumbles, where you make a ref save DC 15 to not fall prone), and when the last two combatants, a psion 13 and a warblade 20 were squaring off, you'd think the warblade would massacre him, right (even though he had about 3/4th of his hps removed by other party members who had been dispatched)? wrong. 6 1s in a row. three times he fumbles, 3 times he failed his save to stay standing. 3 rounds of free attacks felled him. my players are more wary of picking fights with NPCs now (i had them premade way before they picked the fight). that's what i get for rolling attack rolls out in the open. but that just made everything so interesting. if i had hit the psion, he would've died. everything by the rules for me, because i have enough time to do whatever i want and make it within the rules
angryman 11-15-06, 10:06 PM	I know two things about my old DM 1) He never fudged rolls 2) He was the luckiest bastard ever I mean, seriously, he would crit over a dozen times in a combat, but don't forget one thing. Even a high level fighter will roll what, 4 times in a round? A DM might be rolling anything up to 20 rolls. So yeah, he's gonna crit a lot more than you.
Vaelan 11-15-06, 10:43 PM	13 crits, 17 crits and 24 crits. Let's put that into perspective. Let's say he's playing fair. 5% change of rolling a twenty. Let's say 20% of those 5% is actually a crit. That's 1% of every roll. 24 crits means 2400 attack rolls. Let's that 6 rounds of combat with an avarage of 4 monsters. Total of 100 combats. Even if you change these numers (make a combat 3 rounds, less monsters, or easier to crit), you'll still be stuck with 50+ combats. Your numbers suck. Threat ranges go past 20 nowadays and a 20% chance to hit is ridiculously low, especially when you consider attacks against the group's soft targets.
fullmetal80110 11-17-06, 02:39 AM	Well the one REALLY fun way to call him out on this is bring in a psionic thri-kreen monk with AC in the omfg levels, and your dm will go ok i hit, no you didn't.... I rolled an 18 that is like a 49, =P i am an ac of 54. (this has actually happened, dm wasn't cheating or anything, just was p'oed at armor) and with that you can make him show you the bonuses, just keep your ac high, and call him out on it whenever he doesn't roll a 20.
starfire311 11-17-06, 11:17 AM	ok time to run some numbers... I will assume 50% chance to hit and 15% chance to threaten, thus a 7.5% chance to crit... an average of 4 opponents that get 1.5 attacks a round for 6 attacks a round an average of 5 rounds per combat I would considor these to be very favorable for the DM... net result is it would take, on average, 24 of these combats to crit 54 times if you take this to the extreme say 30% chance to threaten, they are all wielding keen scimtars, oh and they have 5 attacks(thanks to scimitars of speed and being high level) and still have a 50% chance to hit.... and this combat is with 4 opponents and 5 rounds per combat. it would still take 4 combats on average for him to get to 54 crits. not gonna call him a cheater, but it seems highly improbably, even statistically impossible to get 54 crits in 8 hours of game time.
Thought 11-17-06, 01:13 PM	Curiosity, but what made you start counting the number of criticals the DM has been rolling? Furthermore, what sort of criticals are these? Let us say the baddie has a crit range of 17-20 (as per a keen bastard sword, for example). 20% of his hits will threaten you. However, if the baddie has an attack bonus of +10 and the character's AC is 10 (to give an extreme), every single one of those critical hits would be a confirmed crit. Furthermore, how many attacks is each baddie getting a turn? If each one gets 3 or 4 attacks a turn (or double weild for 6 or 8) then one only really needs a few combants involving such a baddie in order to get up to 15 criticals a session. Considering there are that many criticals, however, I am curious as to how your party survives. That many criticals should be wasting any party at any level. And remember, just because something is unlikely doesn't mean it wont happen. It is unlikely that you will win the lottery, but it is quite likely that someone will. In the same sense, it is unlikely that any single person would sit through a game and receive 54 critis. However, it is quite likely that someone would.
Andion Isurand 11-17-06, 02:15 PM	All my clerics, even the dwarven ones, die from critical hits. The worst came from ogres, one with a greataxe and the other with a greatclub. The 2d8 greataxe rolled a 15 for damage, +10 damage from strength (it had 25 str) multiplied by 3 resulted in my taking 75 damage. Right after the first ogre took its turn, the second ogre charged in and crited me for 33 damage with his great club and I was over. Niether of these ogres had abilities to increase their threat range, and both threats were confirmed normally. As a dwarf in heavy armor, my AC was pretty high against these giants, and I learned later, they needed to roll 19 or better to hit me.