Post/Author/DateTime	Post
GoofsterStud 01-12-07, 03:35 AM	Objective: I'm looking for ways to make this work for everyone. I love my character and want to keep it and I actually believe the other players love it even more than I do at times. His campaign for everything with the exception of the battles and frustration due to them is beautiful. Let me introduce myself. I'm a powergamer/roleplayer. I generally play fighters/paladins/barbarians for all their worth. I am extremely efficient in creating capable tanks. Anointed Knight, Champion of Gwynharf and Exotic Weapon Master are my friends. DM and Player background: The person (DM for this campaign) has been in a huff with me because as a player I could create more efficient tanks than he was able too, when he was trying to compete with me as a tank. Before I joined the group, 6 months ago, he was always considered the most powerful player from the other members of the group, I have changed that and for the rest of the group considers us equal. The Group: The group really doesn't mind powergaming in the slightest. Our group is heavy into Roleplaying with efficient builds to back it up. Majority of us have a entertainment background of some sort so sometimes we can get to much into character. The group consists of 5 people. Issue: I decide to play a very different character in his campaign than normal. When the DM in question announced the idea of a new campaign. I announced that it sounded fun and that I was not going to play a tank. This came to a shock to all, since that is all I generally play. I just wanted to give the group the upper hand on any void our group might have that could potentially result. I choose to play a Whisper Gnome/Rouge/Theif Acrobat. This is far from my normal Tank/with social skills. She is almost mute! She rarely speaks, is very timid though pretty, and isn't optimized to be a tank. Not to say she doesn’t communicate…she just uses Drow Sign with the other player that knows it to communicate the majority of the time. If there is a telepathic bond she will also communicate through it. She is extremely capable at hiding, moving silent, poison use, sniping, skills, disabling devices, traps, and acrobatic abilities. (She will be going into Shadow Dancer to gain the hide in shadows ability, and probably assassin if we can work this out) When things went from bad to worse: The DM got furious with me in our forth tough encounter. He made rude accusations about how I’m not contributing and am making the game ridiculously tough for everyone. Even stated that I’m being a poor team player. The players then jumped on him (before I got a word in) completely supporting my actions. They all basically agreed that this was the most interesting fun character that they have played with in a long time. Battles in question: The 1st encounter: We were going up against to Half Ogre trippers. I spotted them well in advance and reported. Our group actually planned out the attack, knowing I wasn’t going to be able to get up close. I told the Bard, through drow sign language, the specific of what I have seen. Naming off the weapons/armor they were wearing and the fact that they would side by side. The bard then told the group what those weapons do and with bardic knowledge explained the art of tripping. I drew the symbol both of them had tattooed and the bard knew that they were from a tribe known to trip. Issue:I can not Spring Attack, since I would be tripped and they have 15 foot reach! So I did the next best thing, invisible/move silent/hide, followed by poison use and sniping. Since I was invisible I was doing my sneak attack damage, for some reason the were immune to poisons. I had no idea, so I kept trying to poison them. In the end I feel I contributed the most effectively an intelligent/dexterous rogue would. The 2nd encounter: I was knocked out, ended up being -7 hit points before being healed. Somehow something was able to sneak beyond my characters spot…which I still find it hard to believe. I remember rolling an 18. I am a 10th level character with a spot of 39. At the time I did have see invisibility magically as well. (This was stolen from me in the encounter) My listen was also high at 36. Again, I do not understand how that happened, but didn’t want to fight the DM on it either. Funny that this is later used against me. The 3rd encounter: I spotted an ambush while the party was sleeping (My character shrieked to wake everyone up...this being one of the mandatory times to speak). When it was the enemies round, I then failed a save from the spell caster which did 11 points of strength damage, so I fell to the ground helplessly. The 4th encounter: An undead zombie that we attacked. I scouted the creature. The cleric told me ahead of time that I was not going to be able to damage it. The creature had damage reduction, is immune to sneak attack, and immune to poisons. The undead creature had a fear effect and I was effected buy it. Knowing I couldn’t do anything but sit their and die. This is an intelligent character after all. I had a potion ready and was going around the encounter scouting for help. Preparing to bolt off if needed to get the party revived after the encounter. Edit: I later posted detailed descriptions of the battles in question which people are skipping over and replying. To help this post become more efficient, I have edited the post so that it will be easier to understand.
Black Kitten 01-12-07, 04:10 AM	Well, You have come to succumb to an arms race between you and the DM. I believe there is also a group out there as well of 3 additional players. They are not figurants if all goes well. Just tell him you want to allow the rest of your friends their time in the spot-light and perhaps ask the other players whether they think that you are contributing to the fights and the game. Since that's what it's all about in the end. I have a group of optimised characters and our group knows no greater joy than to SUPPORT eachother. So if there was a sneaky guy like you around, they wouldn't want you to pop out until you could do something effective with your time. Try to get that through with your DM. And show off what your character can do. Smart tactics beat class and level.
Sphyre 01-12-07, 04:11 AM	Well, hiding and doing nothing during a battle, as opposed to hiding to gain the advantage in jumping out against a flatfooted opponent and finishing someone off are two different issues. I don't have a really clear picture here. If he's furious because you're playing something different he needs to get his panties out of a knot. You can play whatever class he allows to everyone (and if he excludes a core class he better have a reason, as opposed to being a pansy ass) If he's furious because you're not contributing to the party, he could be a bit mad, but it should be more that your party members would be furious, as opposed to the DM. Have fun with your rogue, that's what the game is for. Although I suggest that you might want to talk to him. Explain to him what rogues do if he doesn't know. He needs to understand that rogues don't play fair and tank, they stay alive by being smart, not by having brawn. Gaining flanking positions with the other melee can make a rogue a very nice damage dealer, but at the same time he has to look like he's not as big of a threat as the tank so he doesn't get hit with his crappy little d6 hitdie.
GoofsterStud 01-12-07, 04:18 AM	Again the party is enjoying this character and love the way I'm roleplaying it. The character really contributes in town, accessing traps, scouting... With the item requiring only 2 hours of sleep I scout for most of the night. I'm still contributing in combat. Generally going after spell casters with my fort save poisons and sneak attacking them. Using hiding and tactical advantages to my benefit. My character just isn't blindly running in or being a frontliner. We have no frontline character. A bard is the closest thing we have this time. I did let it be known that I'm not playing a fighter this time. The one situation I just hid was when we were fighting a zombie with the fear affect. My character to survive blends in with the surroundings and hides because (she is scared, she knowns she can't sneak attack, poisons are going to do no good).. I don't know what he was expecting. (This was when he stopped the game and was furious) Why would a rougue who can't sneak attack the opponent, is scared, naturally timid, and has an average strength get involved? I really don't know what he was thinking... Instead I was trying to get read to go get help while sneaking away. Which our team would have died if this magicall NPC paladin didn't save us. After we restarted an hour later with the players saying, I wouldn't do what you want him to do with his character either... However what did he expect me to do? Massive damage? Jump out and roll a tumble check for no reason and make it confused because I'm being an idiot? Woohoo I could attack and deal maximum 2 points of damage a round with it's damage reduction, using my 2 attacks...Then need healing constantly when the peace loving cleric can be attempting to turn it again or use searing light? To me that sounds like I was smart in helping the party. The players didn't see anything wrong with it.
Sphyre 01-12-07, 05:00 AM	Wow. The most you could have done there would be... say... pulling out a wand of cure light wounds if you had it, and start healing others. Perhaps other wands with your UMD too, if you had them, but that's about all I can think of. Step 1) Find a gun Step 2) Find a hammer. Step 3) Load the hammer into the gun. Step 4) Aim at your DM Step 5) http://www.geocities.com/sphyre_san/smile/shoothammer.txt
epifreak 01-12-07, 07:47 AM	The last situation sounds like a pretty good occasion to try out that ranged weapon you've been lugging around and not really using. This keeps you away from combat with the undead, thus fulfilling the stay alive requirement, while still allowing you to contribute if only in a small way.
BW0222 01-12-07, 08:39 AM	GoofsterStud, >I'm a powergamer. ... So you and your DM have had a steadily escalating exchange in which he struggles to keep up with your characters. You keep bringing optimized and powerful characters and he struggles to put in things which can challenge you. Then you do a 180 degree turn and bring a pop-gun to the nuclear battlefield and wonder why there are problems? You aren't making the DMs life easy. You have trainined your DM on overpowered characters and then wonder why there are problems when you suddenly don't play that way? Humm...
vader_rocks 01-12-07, 08:51 AM	Don't ever, EVER, EVER let the DM thell you that you are not contributing to the party. That's not his job. His job is to set the scene: provide the world, provide the baddies and provide the adventure. Not to tell you how you should run your character. As a matter of fact, unless you're a n00b who needs to learn, NOBODY should tell you how to run your character. The people who should be complaining are the other members of your party. i.e. The other PLAYERS. If they don't complain about it, then you're fine. If they do, listen to their complaints. Maybe they have something valuable to contribute. Maybe not. But you should still at least listen to what they have to say. If the DM tries to tell you how to run your character again, politely remind him that it is not his job to do such things, and ask that you return to the game.
Nightbluejh 01-12-07, 12:16 PM	It's pretty obviose what is going on here. Your DM designed the sessions based on you playing a huge tank and you didn't. He should adjust and make it so his encounters aren't going to end up being party killers. He hasn't that's not your fault. At the same time you need to not be so blind as to what is going on and let him know, politly and not in front of the others that because you are not playing a tank these you think these encounters need to be revamped for the good of the group.
trapspringer 01-12-07, 12:55 PM	There is probably another side to this story that is less favorable to the gnome-player. I mean, people don't wake up in the morning and say "I'm gunna' be an ***hole today." I'd like to hear his side.
Keldir 01-12-07, 01:31 PM	First of all, anytime I see Stoutheart Halfing or Whisper Gnome it immediately alerts me to munchkinism, just want to get that out of the way. Not an issue necessarily but anytime D&D goes from a cooperative game to an arms race of feat/race/class selection things like this come up which is why I point it out. 1.) You are overpowering your characters because the DM is letting you have too many options in character building, and you play to win. This is the DM's fault, and he should restrict the amount of books you are allowed to use if other people in the party aren't really great optimizers. 2.) Your DM is way too concerned with how you are playing your character and what you are doing. He should be making his encounters as is and the consequences if any of you playing or not playing your characters will become readily apparent to your teammates, and they should chastise you or entreat you for aid. The DM should not be involved in this type of thing, unless he sees you are not having fun or you are new to the game and he is providing helpful advice. 3.) 50% of this conflict is still your fault. I think that the type of play you engage in naturally creates conflict due to its selfish nature. You are more interested in standing out and "beating" the DM than you are in being a team player. Before you dismiss this, I challenge you to spend some time thinking it over. What is more important; your personal victory and enjoyment or the quality of the game overall? Have your actions been in concert with what you feel is important? This is some stuff I would be thinking about.
Falln 01-12-07, 01:56 PM	I think the main problem is that your DM made his encounters based on the party he expected. A party with a tank in it. If suddenly the tank isn't playing, then the second fighter in the party needs to become #1 fighter. The mage who used to be behind 2 fighters is now behind 1 fighter, ... Your character probably did whatever he could in combat (poison, sneak, ...) but while your character now has skills outside combat, your old char used to be focussed on combat. Your DM doesn't seem to be experiened enough to suddenly work around loss in combat power of the PC's
fiendishDM 01-12-07, 01:59 PM	A little advice...... 1) stop playing 3 times a week - life is too short to waste that much time on this game. Do something else. I used to play in a group back in the early 90s in high school that played almost that much and now 15 years later they are all in their 30s and still live at home with mom and dad and can't keep decent jobs. Probably stems from them frying their brains on roleplaying 2-4 times a week for years at a time. GET A LIFE! I played once a week at most - sometimes less and I have a wife, college degree, successful job, and positive future. Coincidence? 2) Don't worry about what someone else plays or trying to have a "better" character than someone else. Don't worry about 1-upping them cause it cheapens the game and you might as well go play dungeon siege or diablo cause those games are better suited for minmaxed combat. 3) When the quests don't revolve around swinging a sword the hardest or blasting the most with fire - people stop minmaxing and powergaming so much. It takes time but believe me the characters will be start to be less "roll" and more "role" if you catch my drift.
_zx75 01-12-07, 02:59 PM	fiendishDM: #2, and #3 I don't have any real issue with. #1 however, I have 3 good friends that don't play D&D, they're in their mid-20s and still live at home with mom and dad, have either quit school or *still* working on their first degree, and none have a decent job or a girlfriend. I play D&D 2-3 times a week, and have for the past 7 years, I have a girlfriend who I share an apartment with (saving up to buy a house), a university degree from a prestigeous university, a successful job, and a positive future. Coincidence? I've matched you anecdote for anecdote, so please quit making stupid generalizations and assumptions.
fiendishDM 01-12-07, 03:21 PM	yea yea yea I know a guy that......... I've heard it all before. THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS TO EVERY RULE. Stereotypes come from somewhere don't they? So I guess you telling me about yourself doesn't disprove my statement 1 bit. The person that started this post has problems with others in his group and obviously playing less would help his cause.
green_yawgmoth 01-12-07, 03:22 PM	1. Spelling. Hot damn, the spelling. rogue. thief. Extra letters in words that a backspace key could take care of. Please. 2. Tell your DM to worry about making a good game, and let the other players worry about the party. It's not his problem if one player isn't made strictly for combat. 3. Get a bow and start the ranged SA assault. Maybe start taking levels in assassin, as they get a lot of spells that enhance SAs and stealth and such. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
starfire311 01-12-07, 03:59 PM	Your DM doesn't seem to be experiened enough to suddenly work around loss in combat power of the PC's This is a great point, but the big question is should he? the party lost a great fighter, for some reason, and they decide to go replace him with a circus freak, this is not the best decision for a party, if they want to increase survivability, perhaps they need to recruit an NPC tank to help them out, as the challenges you are now facing are too difficult for them.
starfire311 01-12-07, 04:09 PM	A little advice...... 1) stop playing 3 times a week - life is too short to waste that much time on this game. Do something else. I used to play in a group back in the early 90s in high school that played almost that much and now 15 years later they are all in their 30s and still live at home with mom and dad and can't keep decent jobs. Probably stems from them frying their brains on roleplaying 2-4 times a week for years at a time. GET A LIFE! I played once a week at most - sometimes less and I have a wife, college degree, successful job, and positive future. Coincidence? Complete and utter B***S***, my DnD group consists of 7 people we all have houses, we all have families, we play 6 times a month, we are all in our 30s, we all make good money, and we all have college degrees (BS in genetcs and comp science for me and I am a chemist, MS in Chemisty with BS in Physics for my wife, we have another 2 chemists, a programmer, an engineer, and a guy that owns his own archery stores. For most of the last 20 years I played in 2-4 games a week, met lots of great people and had tons of fun.
ToxicWiz 01-12-07, 05:06 PM	Is there any chance of making the thread 'fluffy' again? OP: From your discription, You did nothing wrong, atleast that i can see. The only tension i can see here is the little arms race you had/got going. Sounds fine to me. you were helping the team in a way. You were ready to slink off and get help, and worst case a revive from what i can tell. The ranged weapon would have been no help, judging by the DR, no sneak attacks, I beg the question you did. What were you meant to do? Of course your not fighting 'like normal', you don't have full plate and a greatsword! (or whatever) The party lived, and the players are even supporting your actions, everybody won, and he, to put it bluntly, threw a tantrum? You've pulled your weight out of combat, and the party is coping from what you've told us. Looks like the DM just needs a cool-off, and maybe a civil chat?
bob_the_great 01-12-07, 05:17 PM	dms put a lot of work and effort into their games, and a part of this is designing encounters. if you switch from optimized to underpowered w/o letting him know it will totally throw off his plans. common courtesy would have been to warn him. if he's instead mad just because you're playing weaker than you could than he just has to get over it.
High Octane 01-12-07, 05:46 PM	First, start shooting or spring attacking! Tumble Tumble! Keep Rollin rollin rollin rollin..... Second: Tell him what your character is and how short she would last in combat.
Kursk 01-12-07, 05:58 PM	My suggestion is to play with mature people. N/G else can "fix" it.
DarkRhystar 01-12-07, 06:04 PM	The groups thought was...why would a weak, circuis trained rouge, who is timid, jump in the middle of combat encounters bother adventuring at all? Needless to say the group almost died. This was the third batltle we barely survived... Let's just look at the above for a moment (with minor changes). Seriously, it sounds like: Your character doesn't talk (little roleplay). Your character barely helps in fights. If I were the leader of your group I would kick your character out after that. Pure and simple. In my parties I don't want someone who is going to hide during combat and maybe help once or twice, I want someone who's got my character's back and who I can depend on for help. If I were the DM I'd probably be more than a little peeved too. He probably didn't mean to almost get everyone killed, he expected your character to pull her weight which she most certainly did not considering the above. Bottom line: You almost got your fellow players killed. You almost turned your DM's encounter into a TPK since you didn't pull your weight. Those things are bad.
DaidojiTaidoru 01-12-07, 06:18 PM	I guess my question is if your character is pulling it's weight why has your party died almost 3 times? If it's because your DM is sending characters that deal massive damage expecting to find a tank or because everything you hit is immune to Sneak Attack, then it's his fault. If it's because your party isn't playing cautious now that they're missing a meat shield it's the party's fault. If it's because you aren't scouting, attacking effectively and refuse to look for ways to fight, then it is your fault and you should be fixing it.
High Octane 01-12-07, 06:21 PM	I agree. Ask yourself if you ARE contributing to your party. If you say "No but thats not what my character would do" well then shame on you. And shame on anyone who makes a character who contributes nothing to the party under the guise that their character would not be like that. You should never play a character that does not contribute, because otherwise you are being a burden in game and out. D&D is a team game, deal with it.
Almacov 01-12-07, 06:42 PM	Bottom line: You almost got your fellow players killed. You almost turned your DM's encounter into a TPK since you didn't pull your weight. Those things are bad. Err, no. His character almost had the rest of their group killed. His DM's encounter almost turned into a TPK because that's how enemies often work; they try to kill you. Gooferstud has been pulling his weight. Gooferstud has been roleplaying his character. Keeping in character isn't bad, in fact, many people find it more enjoyable than just saying "Okay, Tim, get your character the heck across that tightrope, flank that ogre, and stab it in the back. I don't give a damn that your character is deathly afraid of heights, worships a god of fairness, peace, and second chances, and just got a little shaken up by that giant spider back there, let's just kill the ogre and get the XP so we can level. Now get over there and throw down your sneak attack damage. Besides, if by some freak accident it manages to hit your AC, we'll just go back to town and rez you. Or better yet, you can roll up a character that doesn't have 8 ranks in profession (farming), and we can save our gold to buy that new bastard sword." Really though, Gooferstud's gaming group needs to make a decision: Would they rather play a roleplaying game, or just a roll-playing game? Roll-playing is a perfectly valid way to enjoy the hobby of course. It's often more laid-back, and the goals are alot easier to see, and universal. However, it's roleplaying that really seperates D&D from a game like chess, or "Warhammer", and I certainly don't think it's something to be discouraged. Getting into character is part of what makes D&D sessions magic, and part of what makes the game exciting, really.
GoofsterStud 01-12-07, 06:44 PM	I'm feeling like I'm being attacked for this character, so I'm going to further clarify the situation. Maybe I'm in the wrong to some and I just didn't realise it. I might stop playing just his campaigns... First I'd like to say: This was a completely new campaign. I let it be known two weeks before hand that I was not going to play a tank. The party thinks I'm contributing just fine, infact I'm quite humerous in it. The players are on my side, even in that huff, all of which chimed in on my behalf...before I got to put a word in. Yes my character is basically a mute. Funny how Drow Sign and a telepathic bond can change everything. However my character is not the social rougue. She does know how to speak she's just very shy and timid around new people. Only chiming in or speaking when it is absolutely manditory. Search/Disable Trap/Tumble/Escape Artist/Open Lock/Perform/Spot/Listen So I'm a mute...I personally know sign language and thereforth use that to communicate with the other player who knows sign language and also has Drown Sign as a language. (The Bard) I said I really get into my characters. That doesn't mean I sit around doing nothing. I really roleplay like I'm acting in a play. Bottom line: You almost got your fellow players killed. You almost turned your DM's encounter into a TPK since you didn't pull your weight. Those things are bad. Ok so my character does not have Use Magic Device and has no possible way to damage the opponent. So I could stand infront of it and die or hide and let the cleric, bard, and ranger figure something out. While I spot for help and have a potion ready. My character is smart. I don't think running up their and just taking damage would have helped anything. It's not what the character would do either. The second fight: It was half Ogre Trippers! I couldn't get close up without dying. Sure I can Spring Attack, but not when they are standing side by side... So I did the next best thing, invisible, hide, poison, ranged mellee. It was the only thing I could do. Couldn't help it if they were immune to poison, for whatever reason. The third battle: I was knocked out, ended up being minus 7 before being healed. Somehow something could sneak beyond my wild spot check. (shrugs) GoofsterStud, Then you do a 180 degree turn and bring a pop-gun to the nuclear battlefield and wonder why there are problems? So I can't powergame as a scouting, snipering, spring attack, skill junkie? They knew ahead of time that I wasn't going to be a mellee fighter. Sure I'll flank and massive damage, if my character can contribute in that way. Just not the first thing I would do... PS: Currently I'm a fulltime College student. Who lives in one of his mother's Condo's. I also support myself in Modeling and Acting. I'm not your stereotype at all. I'd just rather play DandD then go out partying 7 times a week. I have a lot of free time currently with no real need for a main job. I still party and what not...date...workout. Though school difficulty will really take off next year with programing courses.
DaidojiTaidoru 01-12-07, 07:06 PM	Okay, lets get to specifics. What were the other 2 fights your party almost died in? I saw the zombie one. That was tolerable this time, but next time your party should hand you some holy water vials and demand you do something. Every damage point helps. What about the other 2? Also why is your party not prepared for these fights in advance? It looks like you're built as a scout, so how often are enemies getting to the party without the party knowing their opponents in advance? If your character can give the party 3 rounds to buff for most fights that alone justifies your existance. If your character doesn't scout because she's scared it's time to go back to the circus. snip Keeping in character isn't bad snip Sometimes it is. When on average your characters presence is so detrimental to the party that a hired goon would be better keeping in character is very very bad. It would have been better to made a character that wasn't a burden then have to deal with kicking a PC out of the party in game and then spending time rerolling. Not that I am claiming this is the case in this scenario. Currently I could see this being either way.
High Octane 01-12-07, 07:23 PM	Really though, Gooferstud's gaming group needs to make a decision: Would they rather play a roleplaying game, or just a roll-playing game?This is the biggest load of CRAP that I see semi-universally accepted in these boards. You CAN have both. People seem to have it in their heads that a roleplayer is never a well constructed character for combat and usefulness. People think roleplaying means making anti-optimized characters to PROVE their roleplayingness. You SHOULD optimize your character in ORDER to roleplay. You heard me. Part of roleplaying is that your character can DO what you say they can do. If you say your character is a smooth talking Don Juan, youu SHOULD max out charisma and charisma based skills. That way, mechanically, the character works, and he is not a burden on the party. If your character is a shy sneaky acrobat, she should max out tumble and hide and spot and listen. She can contribute through scouting, spying, even escaping when everyone else is taken prisoner so she can bust them out. Whats more, your character would want to use their traits to their advantage, so you should pick a class that matches what thier persona would be best in. If your character is a performer, they would want to be a bard. If the character is shy, they would want to be a sneaking class like scout or rogue. If the character is brave and protective of their friends and justice, they should be a paladin or a fighter. Of course this game is about creating characters (read roleplaying) but still in order to play those characters well and the way they are intended you have to have the mechanics to back it up. (read ROLL-playing) If you say your character is a great leader without any charisma or wisdom, you wont be able to back up that claim. And although your choices are unlimited in character creation, remember, you are playing a team game. And when you intentionally hurt yourself, you hurt the team, and they suffer for some false idealogy that you shouldnt put at least some thought into making your character effective. If you want to play a game where you roleplay without having to have the mechanics to back it, you are playing the wrong game. This is D&D. This is about romantic larger than life heroics and villainy. This is about your small band doing impossible feats. You want monologues, go play a different system. This is D&D. You roleplay through your actions.
GoofsterStud 01-12-07, 07:31 PM	The 1st fight: It was half Ogre Trippers! I spotted them. Way before the encounter. We actually were the ones that attacked. I told them (Drow sign to the Bard to be specific, which she then relayed the message) the weapons they were caring and everything. The bard then told us what those weapons do and the art of tripping. I drew the symbol they had on and she knew they were a tribe of trippers. Sure I can Spring Attack, but not when they are standing side by side since with reach and each using a chains pikes I'd be tripped... So I did the next best thing, invisible, hide, poison, ranged melee. It was the only thing I could do and it did help out a lot. Couldn't help it if they were immune to poison, for whatever reason. I was still helping however. They were just to strong for us. The 2nd battle: I was knocked out, ended up being minus 7 before being healed. Somehow something could sneak beyond my characters wildest dreams, and poison me. Sleep here I come. The 3rd battle: Issue: I spotted the ambush (My character shrieked to wake everyone up...it was one of those times it was mandatory) I then failed a save from the spell caster…-11 points of strength (damage) so I fell to the ground and was helpless. I did roll a 1...so I have no clue what the save was. I automatically told the DM I failed. He looked at me kind of perplexed and then I explained that I rolled a 1. OOPS: Technically the undead fight was the fourth encounter. To the DM's benefit: I normally play high save characters. Divine Grace, high will/fort, occult slayer, Champion of Gynharf.
ZombieDragon 01-12-07, 07:42 PM	He almost deserves a really, really well played Pun Pun.
DaidojiTaidoru 01-12-07, 07:42 PM	The second fight: It was half Ogre Trippers! I spotted them. Way before the encounter. We actually were the ones that attacked. I told them the weapons they were caring and everything. The bard then told us what those weapons do and the art of tripping. I drew the symbol they had on and she knew they were a tribe of trippers. Sure I can Spring Attack, but not when they are standing side by side since with reach and each using a chains pikes I'd be tripped... So I did the next best thing, invisible, hide, poison, ranged melee. It was the only thing I could do and it did help out a lot. Couldn't help it if they were immune to poison, for whatever reason. I was still helping however. They were just to strong for us. The third battle: I was knocked out, ended up being minus 7 before being healed. Somehow something could sneak beyong my characters wildest dreams, and poison me. Sleep here I come. The fourth battle: Issue: I spotted the ambush (My character shrieked to wake everyone up...it was one of those times it was mandatory) I then failed a save from the spellcaster…-11 points of strength (damage) so I fell to the ground and was helpless. OOPS: Techinically the undead fight way are fourth encounter. To the DM's benefit: I normally play high save characters. Divine Grace, high will/fort, occult slayer, Champion of Gynharf. Hm... It looks like your group needs to change your tactics up a bit, and your DM needs to tone things down. I can understand if your character isn't doing much because everything is immune to your attacks or deals out your HP in a round. Your party as a whole isn't optimised for your DMs encounters, and while tactics will help some he's going to have to down the killing power or the lot of you will need to reroll new characters. And considering you've been playing the fighter all along (and warned everyone you weren't going to be sucking up the damage) it's the rest of the party who should be trying out new builds.
Bruunwald 01-12-07, 07:50 PM	Yes, I remember when I had a problem player who needed so badly to have the attention of everybody in the group. Who constantly chose bizarro characters and then played them annoyingly as he could. Who liked himself a lot and could never understand why he wasn't constantly being showered with praise. Like your DM, I also obsessed over my awful player to the exclusion of everybody else, so that, as he wanted, it became the awful-player show, with everybody else as a support character. I, too, was unwise to the danger and potential explosiveness of the situation while he, like you, persisted in his "look at me! look at me!" ways, until it was too late. I hate to say this, but he really has to get rid of you. To make the game fair and fun for all, he has to get to a point where he is willing to give up wrestling with his favorite annoying addiction. And for you to be a more humble person, you need to stop playing D&D and go find an outlet where praise, adulation and applause will be more immediate and sincere. And relevant.
itwasntme 01-12-07, 07:58 PM	Normoly i dount see a reason why he should be argueing allso to the core class's thing Druids are banned in The Worlds Largest Dungion for a good reason (Along with some spells like teleport/plane shift) The DM dosnt have to tell you the REASON why the player should be understanding in this case tho i think the DM just got ****** off becouse he was realy hoping that you would be your powergamer self and relied on that for his campaine Allso your character if hes running away from combat (Did i get that right?) Isnt being much use to the party as it seems the group is a Hack'n'Slash type of group In short make it where the character isnt a complete cowerd in combat ... he dosnt have to be epic/uber/powergamer type of combat person but let your character use a bow or something to assest in combat besides hideing then prepareing to defend your self tho i didnt understand eveything that was said and was a bit confused no offince
itwasntme 01-12-07, 08:00 PM	Hm... It looks like your group needs to change your tactics up a bit, and your DM needs to tone things down. I can understand if your character isn't doing much because everything is immune to your attacks or deals out your HP in a round. Your party as a whole isn't optimised for your DMs encounters, and while tactics will help some he's going to have to down the killing power or the lot of you will need to reroll new characters. And considering you've been playing the fighter all along (and warned everyone you weren't going to be sucking up the damage) it's the rest of the party who should be trying out new builds. in a way i agree
GoofsterStud 01-12-07, 08:03 PM	Guys: First of I'm looking for ways to make this work. I love my character and want to keep it. So do the other players. I do like playing I just want it to work out with this guy. His campaign for everything but the battles and baffling frustration is beautiful. I will leave if I have to, I'll give it 2 more tries with any tips you guys can give to help out. He's going to not have a game if I leave. 2 of the other players also stated that if I'm forced to change characters, they will stop as well. The players are really enjoy this character. Allso your character if hes running away from combat (Did i get that right?) Isnt being much use to the party as it seems the group is a Hack'n'Slash type of group. Only for the one encounter which the character was spotting and moving away to find help, and run off if necessary to get a rival. That was the undead encounter I couldn't do anything in. Yes, I remember when I had a problem player who needed so badly to have the attention of everybody in the group. Who constantly chose bizarro characters and then played them annoyingly as he could. Who liked himself a lot and could never understand why he wasn't constantly being showered with praise. Like your DM, I also obsessed over my awful player to the exclusion of everybody else, so that, as he wanted, it became the awful-player show, with everybody else as a support character. I, too, was unwise to the danger and potential explosiveness of the situation while he, like you, persisted in his "look at me! look at me!" ways, until it was too late. I hate to say this, but he really has to get rid of you. To make the game fair and fun for all, he has to get to a point where he is willing to give up wrestling with his favorite annoying addiction. And for you to be a more humble person, you need to stop playing D&D and go find an outlet where praise, adulation and applause will be more immediate and sincere. And relevant. How does this relate to me. My character isn't the spotlight. The bards is...I'm just the bards best friend in the campaign.
kelvinaw273 01-12-07, 08:16 PM	The problem with a player being good at optimisation is that it can lead to an 'arms race' mentality. The answer is don't optimise so much. Your new character is cool with the party, so there is no real problem here except in the DM's head.
GoofsterStud 01-12-07, 09:16 PM	Original post has been updated to help in painting a clearer picture to the scenario. Thank you guys for all your helpful comments presently and in advance.
User5127 01-12-07, 09:51 PM	hmm.. well the undead encounter makes no sense, if he threw that in there and expected you to do something he is on glue. (seriously) you pretty much did what you could. perhaps he still has that tank mentality for your characters. try talking to him about it. make sure every one is calm about it. i'm sure its all jsut a misunderstanding and that the DM isn't trying to make you useless or kill you. so if every one talked calmly then i'm sure things will work out. just bring up your concerns and let him voice his. its between you and the DM not the other players. imo.
RiOrius 01-12-07, 10:37 PM	Looks to me like you're too much of a one- (or two-)trick pony. I mean, if they're immune to poison, and too big/too DR to Spring Attack, you've pretty much got nothing, right? And really, when you're completely ineffective against such a common enemy as Undead, then yeah, that'll frustrate a DM, who planned an encounter for n PC's and finds he only has (n-1). First thing that comes to mind is to pump up Use Magic Device ASAP and get a nice wand. You don't need something _too_ fancy--the highest level Magic Missile wand you can afford would probably suffice. It'll bypass DR, hit incorporeal creatures, and can even hit multiple enemies. Won't be a whole lot of damage, but it'll be more than hiding. Your DM has exposed your character's weakness. If your character is smart, he'll cover it.
User5127 01-12-07, 10:53 PM	yea but rogues suck against undead anyways. unless the cleric uses that spell so he can SA them..
Magrus 01-12-07, 11:27 PM	Yes, I remember when I had a problem player who needed so badly to have the attention of everybody in the group. Who constantly chose bizarro characters and then played them annoyingly as he could. Who liked himself a lot and could never understand why he wasn't constantly being showered with praise. Like your DM, I also obsessed over my awful player to the exclusion of everybody else, so that, as he wanted, it became the awful-player show, with everybody else as a support character. I, too, was unwise to the danger and potential explosiveness of the situation while he, like you, persisted in his "look at me! look at me!" ways, until it was too late. I hate to say this, but he really has to get rid of you. To make the game fair and fun for all, he has to get to a point where he is willing to give up wrestling with his favorite annoying addiction. And for you to be a more humble person, you need to stop playing D&D and go find an outlet where praise, adulation and applause will be more immediate and sincere. And relevant. You're just being an ass there. Just because a player tries a character that is different doesn't mean they have personality issues and need to be booted from the group. Creativity should be rewarded. Hell, I had a player run a character that communicated completely through hand motions and drawing diagrams in the sand in a campaign. Granted, it took longer, but that's what he wanted to play and it ensured that time was spent roleplaying the inter-party communication that is often lacking in some games. Planning took time, and the players all thought it over instead of just agreeing to whatever first happened as it took time to get the point across clearly. The player's character contributed a lot, and not just in combat. He was one of the main thinkers in the group even though he didn't communicate normally. To the OP: While I don't have the side of your DM and just your own, it sounds as if the DM is trying to "show you who's boss" to me. Given your listing of what has happened, it seems as if he has deliberately attempted to make all of your characters strengths be null and void in the game. Occasionally when I run games, I warn the players that I will create a game made for a "standard" type party and they should keep this in mind. Meaning, a party similar to the Cleric, Fighter, Wizard, Rogue mix. They then know that if they choose a group of all rogue type characters it may be extremely easy at some points and horribly difficult in others. Other times, I do attempt to push my characters. Everyone has their own way of playing, and running games. Yet, and as I said, I don't have his side, just your side, so I am only going by this. It seems as though the DM is using his power in running a game to go after you personally. If the other players are supportive of you, and you all are enjoying the party setup, he needs to grow up and deal. It is a group game. If everyone else involved is having fun and he is deliberately ruining it, obviously something is wrong. Now, perhaps you are leaving something out and something is missing and he has a reason for doing this. If not, I would suggest having the players as a group ask him why he is running the game in a way that is frustrating everyone. If he doesn't have a good answer/reason, and he won't adjust, perhaps you should stop the game, and one of you DM, and run without him? Try compromising, but if 1 person is going out of their way to ruin a game everyone else is content with, there is something really wrong that needs to be fixed.
Almacov 01-12-07, 11:51 PM	This is the biggest load of CRAP that I see semi-universally accepted in these boards. You CAN have both. Ack. I think you misinterpret my statement... my fault though, as my wording wasn't entirely clear. What I said was, "Would they rather play a roleplaying game, or just a roll-playing game?". I'm really sorry for striking a nerve there, please don't assume I don't appreciate the mechanics of the game. I completely agree with you, actually. :) It's just that from what I'd seen in the topic creator's post, he was making wise decisions for his character, and I really didn't find any hints that it was poorly constructed. Also, the topic creator seems to indicate that his fellow players seem to enjoy his character's presence in the game world, and even seem to appreciate the roleplay. Anyhow, I'm sorry for the misunderstanding, and I understand and actually do agree with everything you've said in your post. :P Seriously, we're on the same page. :)
Novabomb 01-13-07, 01:41 AM	Yes, I remember when I had a problem player who needed so badly to have the attention of everybody in the group. Who constantly chose bizarro characters and then played them annoyingly as he could. Who liked himself a lot and could never understand why he wasn't constantly being showered with praise. Like your DM, I also obsessed over my awful player to the exclusion of everybody else, so that, as he wanted, it became the awful-player show, with everybody else as a support character. I, too, was unwise to the danger and potential explosiveness of the situation while he, like you, persisted in his "look at me! look at me!" ways, until it was too late. I hate to say this, but he really has to get rid of you. To make the game fair and fun for all, he has to get to a point where he is willing to give up wrestling with his favorite annoying addiction. And for you to be a more humble person, you need to stop playing D&D and go find an outlet where praise, adulation and applause will be more immediate and sincere. And relevant. I dont understand ppl like this. What is so difficult about reading the OP before jumping to conclusions. To the OP: I really cannot imagine why your dm is angry with you in particular. From what I can tell your doing your job as a rogue. The best i can imagine is that for some reason he is holding you accountable for a lack of meat shield, despite the advance warning, which causes problems for the balancing of his encounters. I really can not think of anything that can be done against such an irrational response. Maybe you should have a little sit down with your dm and explain that you wanted to try something new, and it isnt your responsablity to make sure the party has a meatshield. Point out the two weeks notice. Alternatively there is the hammer-gun or the folding chair.
Serrin 01-13-07, 01:43 AM	This thread is ridiculous. First the guy powergames too much. Then he's not powergaming enough. Then he's gaming too much and going to live with his parents when he's 30. Then the entire group is angry at him for not pulling his weight (except he states that's not at all the case...). Then he's hogging the spotlight. Then it's his character and his character alone who's causing near-TPKs (and not the total lack of a tank-type, right?). Then he's a useless one trick pony, because everything is immune to poison, most are immune to sneak attacks, and things make move silently checks of 39+. The DM is going out of his way to be a jerk and nullify your character, and then he's throwing a tantrum when nobody else seems to mind. Try a civil chat with him, and if that doesn't work, hammergun.
TheOinodaemon 01-13-07, 02:18 AM	A quick question, does the rest of your party play the same basic characters every time? Frankly, most power gamers do. If so, then maybe he can't deal with someone not playing "the right way?" As an alternative, maybe the DM spent a lot of time making encounters for your tank, and then you had the audacity not to play one. He could just be angry about it.
Sphyre 01-13-07, 03:56 AM	He almost deserves a really, really well played Pun Pun. Um... being that Pun Pun is all powerful even if he's asleep, willing to take any spell you throw at him, and otherwise not trying to fight back, any Pun Pun is a "really, really well played Pun Pun." Actually they all are stupid... why? Because he wasn't designed to be played.
NordicBirch 01-13-07, 06:55 AM	Yes, I remember when I had a problem player who needed so badly to have the attention of everybody in the group. Who constantly chose bizarro characters and then played them annoyingly as he could. Who liked himself a lot and could never understand why he wasn't constantly being showered with praise. It must have been awful if you're still projecting it onto threads that have nothing to do with your experience. Did you actually read the OP?
NordicBirch 01-13-07, 07:04 AM	This thread is ridiculous. First the guy powergames too much. Then he's not powergaming enough. Then he's gaming too much and going to live with his parents when he's 30. Then the entire group is angry at him for not pulling his weight (except he states that's not at all the case...). Then he's hogging the spotlight. Then it's his character and his character alone who's causing near-TPKs (and not the total lack of a tank-type, right?). Then he's a useless one trick pony, because everything is immune to poison, most are immune to sneak attacks, and things make move silently checks of 39+. A lot of posters on these boards seem to think that every DM everywhere is totally in the right in any argument and feel it's their duty to take the DM's side in these threads. Usually they skip reading the OP as it would just get in the way. The DM is going out of his way to be a jerk and nullify your character, and then he's throwing a tantrum when nobody else seems to mind. Try a civil chat with him, and if that doesn't work, hammergun. If I read the OP right, the DM used to be the strongest powergames as a player and then the new guy comes in and makes stronger chars. Now the deposed powergamer is DM... Sound like a grudge? Long discussions with first the other players (to get the background) and then the DM should at least explain what's going on. This might not help though, the DM doesn't sound too sensible.
Novabomb 01-13-07, 10:59 AM	A quick question, does the rest of your party play the same basic characters every time? Frankly, most power gamers do. If so, then maybe he can't deal with someone not playing "the right way?" As an alternative, maybe the DM spent a lot of time making encounters for your tank, and then you had the audacity not to play one. He could just be angry about it. Just one point, I object to the suggestion that most powergamers play one type of character.
Falln 01-13-07, 01:37 PM	The game group I play in has: 2 mages, 1 druid, 2 thieves. One thief thinks he's a good fighter, but he get distracted everytime he sees gold, money, jewels, ... The other thief isn't specialised in combat, he's the information gatherer. A smooth talker who infoms us if we need to know something. He often runs from combat. The druid is our tank. He needs to fight, otherwise the 2 mages are in front of combat. What if suddenly the player who plays the druid takes an other PC class. Like a clown from a circus. Who's hiding in fights. Then combat would be: 1 guy hiding, 1 guy running, 1 guy looting and 2 mages in the middle of melee. This is the worst part with Dnd: why do PC's travel together? The only reason is because the players who play the PC's happen to know each other. There are two ways to handle this as a group: The players who do nothing in combat but "role-play" some kind of severe disadvantage don't count for combat (so the DM ignores the fact that they are somewhere) OR the players all decide to "roll-play" as good as possible and they don't take these kind of characters. **it can be that a character who does nothing during combat makes a big difference outside combat**
ZombieDragon 01-13-07, 02:03 PM	Sphyre I know the Pun is a thought experiment. I made my comment more on the lines of a sarcastic joke. As the DM in question wanted something different, but really didn't want something different, just weaker. So why not play the frail one that, in a blink of a commoners eye turns omnipowerful. My first thought was cleric tank codzilla but, that's actually doable and semi-meanspirited, so I opted for the kobold thought joke. To me pun pun is on par with the hammer gun, a joking revenge that isn't serious.
starfire311 01-13-07, 02:22 PM	The 1st fight: It was half Ogre Trippers! I spotted them. Way before the encounter. We actually were the ones that attacked. I told them (Drow sign to the Bard to be specific, which she then relayed the message) the weapons they were caring and everything. The bard then told us what those weapons do and the art of tripping. I drew the symbol they had on and she knew they were a tribe of trippers. Sure I can Spring Attack, but not when they are standing side by side since with reach and each using a chains pikes I'd be tripped... So I did the next best thing, invisible, hide, poison, ranged melee. It was the only thing I could do and it did help out a lot. Couldn't help it if they were immune to poison, for whatever reason. I was still helping however. They were just to strong for us. um do you not have any ranks in tumble, so as to move into melee without provoking AoOs?
starfire311 01-13-07, 02:27 PM	Only for the one encounter which the character was spotting and moving away to find help, and run off if necessary to get a rival. That was the undead encounter I couldn't do anything in. just wanted to say that there is no such encounter, there is always the aid anotehr action or flanking to help out your allies, you may even draw some heat from them, so they don't die, just get into flanking possition and go total defense if you can do any damage, or get next to an ally and fight defensivly and aid his attack or AC. There is always something you can do to help your team.
holylink718 01-13-07, 03:07 PM	GoofsterStud, >I'm a powergamer. ... So you and your DM have had a steadily escalating exchange in which he struggles to keep up with your characters. You keep bringing optimized and powerful characters and he struggles to put in things which can challenge you. Then you do a 180 degree turn and bring a pop-gun to the nuclear battlefield and wonder why there are problems? You aren't making the DMs life easy. You have trainined your DM on overpowered characters and then wonder why there are problems when you suddenly don't play that way? Humm... umm...obviously you didn't read the post, but he gave the dm and other players alike an advance warning that he wasn't playing a fighter-type. so it's the dm's fault if he didn't take that into account. the dm can't blame players for anything, especially in this situation...you should really read the entire post before you respond...which you obviously didn't. :bounce:
Erugoth 01-13-07, 04:49 PM	To OP: I think you are doing fine. It sounds like only the DM has a problem and it is really not his place to decide if you are playing your character well or not. I would understand if your character was trying to be something she's not, but she's trying to be exactly what she is! Your tactic with the undead may not have been the best but it doesn't say anywhere in any book that your character must make the best choices at all times. It was perfectly in your right to do what you did in that battle and it wasn't selfish at all. You were preparing to save the party if worst came to worst. It may not be what I would have done, but who cares? I am playing in a campaign now and there was a monk character (he died, sadly) throughout the first half so far that tended to take complete defensive to save his ass against things he didn't think we could beat. Well, generally we won (without his help) but it would always irritate me. Let me clarify, irritate my CHARACTER, his CHARACTER's actions would irritate my CHARACTER. It happens. He was role-playing what his character would do in the circumstance. He was often a help to the party, just not in certain circumstances. He also died a heroic death (rod of wonders fireball took him and the assailants out as he faded into unconsciousness). Your DM sounds like he has a problem with the way your playing your character and he has no right to b#(*& about it. There are so many different types of players in our campaign, and only certain members get along but we all manage to stay a party. Even the paladin manages to deal with the evil sorc (the sorc is very sneaky about his evilness, pally did catch one of his friends though and he was executed after standing trial. Sorc is still around and I will NOT get into why it has been possible in this group on this thread, it is very possible if played in the right manner though without ignoring mechanics such as detect evil). I personally rather enjoy the character concept you've come up with. Kudos.
DarkRhystar 01-13-07, 07:10 PM	umm...obviously you didn't read the post, but he gave the dm and other players alike an advance warning that he wasn't playing a fighter-type. so it's the dm's fault if he didn't take that into account. the dm can't blame players for anything, especially in this situation...you should really read the entire post before you respond...which you obviously didn't. The OP edited his original post after several posters (including BW and myself) responded to include extra information. Now don't be a jerk.
Man in the Funny Hat 01-13-07, 07:22 PM	Given things as reported by the OP I cannot think of any reason why the DM should be upset. If the DM's claim really is that in his opinion the character is not sufficiently contributing then the DM is WAY out of line. As stated by others THIS IS NOT HIS JOB TO RUN THE PC'S. Let the PLAYERS run their characters. When the other CHARACTERS have issues with one PC's lack of contribution then let THEM handle it. The DM should keep his fat nose out of it unless the players get out of hand. I don't care if the PC sat and did nothing at all for an entire encounter. This is not the DM's call. It is up to the other PLAYERS to make that an issue. If the other players are leaping to the defense of the OP at the DM's criticisms what IS the DM's beef? If there is a failure here on the part of the OP it is, once again, a failure of communication. What does the DM say about why he's so upset? Why does he feel it necessary to take umbrage on behalf of the players for failing to contribute - even when they are expressing just the opposite sentiments? This failure of communication goes both ways. Even if the DM DOES think he needs to tell the OP to contribute more, why is he making "rude" comments instead of just ASKING about the OP's character and style of play and discovering from the other players if it's a problem for THEM and not just HIS UNINFORMED, MISTAKEN impressions?
Firestar27 01-13-07, 08:13 PM	I've noticed many times that person x says that person y didn't read the OP. Well, i'd like to start by saying that i read the whole thread. To the OP: Neither of you have a problem. Your DM has a habit of sending monsters that need a tank to defeat. My DM has a similar problem. He (without realizing that he shouldn't, he was new at the time) made our Characters extremely rich (our fighter's weapon is a +3 Flaming Burst Greatsword, and he's 7th level). We also have 6 characters in the party. So he sends us against (really) tough monsters. I worry every time, but every time we win. I think it has turned into a habit for my DM to send really tough monsters. So, every time he asks us if we think we should drop some of our wealth (obviously with a good reason), then i say "a little, but ONLY a little", because i'm afraid we will just be facing tougher monsters without the equipment to handle them. Your DM just needs to adjust. Remind him that he must remember that your party lacks a tank. If worst comes to worst, have the bard (or another character, possibly yours) take leadership with a tank cohort.
Rogue Elendae 01-14-07, 03:36 AM	Um, though I think that given the advance warning and the fact that the DM had 2 weeks to retool the campaign because of it that this shouldn't be happening unless the DM is doing so out of spite that the player's new character concept ruined his intended combat-heavy campaign, I want to know what sort of levels of PCs we're looking at. I'm assuming that the OP's character is no less than ECL6, given that it'd take no less than Rogue LV5 to get the prerequisites for a Thief-Acrobat. And I could swear that the CR for a half-Ogre is pretty high, plus class levels (possibly PrC levels, given the "tripper" thing? I don't know if that's a class or just their intended job within the combat). How many of these things were there? This party is at bare minimum a bunch of Lv6 PCs, against creatures that are probably fairly high total level/CR, who seemed from the description of the event to be guarding one another's flanks, wielding weapons with reach, and appear to be immune to the Rogue's Sneak Attack abilities and poisoned weapon. That just sounds ugly, even if you've got a power match between creatures and party; I think this might've been a mismatch (I don't know, seeing as I don't have whatever book has the half-Ogre in it. Correct me or provide the info, please, but I know Ogres have no immunity to poison). Either way, I think the DM needs to explain his reasons for seemingly trying to kill this character at every turn, or even TPK; it sounds like he's just outraged that things didn't work out how he wanted, and is taking it out on this player in spite of being warned that the player was creating an optimized skill-user Rogue, rather than a tank Fighter. I'd ask what's going on, and whether or not this couldn't be dealt with outside of game, rather than brutalizing the PCs for the OP's choice to do something outside of his box. It's not just vicious encounters, in my view; these encounters seem blatantly tailored to render the Rogue's abilities useless, while the OP hasn't given anything to suggest that there've been instances outside of combat that've made use of his character's Rogue skills.
GoofsterStud 01-14-07, 03:40 AM	Well a couple of us went out partying tonight, apparently the other players have already discussed what they would like to do with the situation. They decided that the DM will no longer be DM for the time being. He however is going to remain as a player. Furthermore one of the other players is going to take over and hopes we continue to play the characters as a kind of a Prelude to where we left off. So we are going back to 6th Level with the characters though we are allowed to tweak them. We are going to play the RED HAND OF DOOM. (Can anyone tell me if this is going to be full of undead ahead of time) Thank you all for your advise. I'm very pleased with this outcome. NOTE: The DM in question is now going to play a tripper, which makes rogues happy! He also knows sign language and will be taking Drow sign to communicate with my character as well. I was wondering on what kind of tweaks would be suggested to help us work together as a team. That way we could potentially bond more as players. while the OP hasn't given anything to suggest that there've been instances outside of combat that've made use of his character's Rogue skills. I would if I could. For some reason we have not run into any traps, have not found a locked door, no chances to really search, so spot/listen/survival while scent is casted on my character for scouting out ahead is really the only oppertunity I have had. We were 10th level characters.
draco1119 01-14-07, 04:32 AM	We are going to play the RED HAND OF DOOM. (Can anyone tell me if this is going to be full of undead ahead of time) Nope. :D
CaoSlayer 01-14-07, 08:47 AM	do the party´s bard have grease? grease it is a great spell for a rogue because anything without 5 ranks in balance will lose his bonus to dex besides making the enemy move slowly or free triping him. If he have not the spell learned, get a wand for him since the save is a balance check so works as good as a wand.
User5127 01-14-07, 06:38 PM	red hand of doom does have a fair bit of undead in it, but its not everything about it. and being a sneaky rogue in the underdark and being small would have GREAT advantages to you! ask your DM to let you get your hands on an undead bane type of weapon. so you can deal normal damage against them. iirc there is a cleric spell in SC that lets you critical undead, as such you can then SA them. see if he'll let you incoperate that into a weapon. if not as an active ability like flaming perhaps a comand word activated ability. target a certain undead. unleash the spell, SA like mad.
trapspringer 01-14-07, 08:13 PM	1) stop playing 3 times a week - life is too short to waste that much time on this game. Do something else. I used to play in a group back in the early 90s in high school that played almost that much and now 15 years later they are all in their 30s and still live at home with mom and dad and can't keep decent jobs. Probably stems from them frying their brains on roleplaying 2-4 times a week for years at a time. GET A LIFE! I played once a week at most - sometimes less and I have a wife, college degree, successful job, and positive future. Coincidence? Complete and utter B***S***, my DnD group consists of 7 people we all have houses, we all have families, we play 6 times a month, we are all in our 30s, we all make good money, and we all have college degrees (BS in genetcs and comp science for me and I am a chemist, MS in Chemisty with BS in Physics for my wife, we have another 2 chemists, a programmer, an engineer, and a guy that owns his own archery stores. For most of the last 20 years I played in 2-4 games a week, met lots of great people and had tons of fun. People spend time with people like them. Providing negative anecdotes about gamers you know and spend time with says more about you than it does about gaming. Back on topic, the solution to this problem is the same as always. Talk to the DM. Explain your side. Modify your character as you progress. Explain to the DM, with number-backing, what you are doing now in combat and what you were doing before. If, after examining the math, you determine you aren't as mechanically powerful as before, explain that you are tired of your old character concept and want to do something different. He seesm to respond to that with the following based on what you have said: It isn't fair to the party. It isn't fair to me as a DM because I have to re-work the power curve. The counter to the first point is "Let's ask them if they mind. I want to have fun, and I think they will have fun, too." The counter to the second is trickier. If he really has takent he time to adjust the entire adventure up or down to your power curve, asking him to re-work the entire thing would take a really selfish, incensitive person. But frankly, that's what DMing is. You have to adapt to uncaring, selfish players who make decisions that absolutely **** up your plans. It's not the player's fault, after all. They aren't exactly in on your schemes. I can't say you should put it that simply, but honestly if he doesn't know that already, you're headed for bigger touble anyway. Offer to DM.
Grogmir 01-16-07, 10:04 AM	People have said that it’s the DM not re-arranging his battles, not reacting to a new group etc put there seems to be only one reason to me. The DM is out to get you. Lets look at the evidence – Monsters that are immune to all you special powers. Poison Nope, Sneak Attack nope. Something that sneaks up on you despite you (very high) listen and spot checks. There seems no doubt in my mind that he’s designing the battles and changing the game specifically to get you. Whether you deserve that treatment is not for me to say. There does seem to be some tension between you two and I think that it isn’t all caused by him. I suggest this is an OOC problem, Did you know him before you started playing? Or have you like you’ve implied in your OP stolen some of his limelight? Put yourself in his (seemingly immature) shoes and perhaps he just a human being hurting because you are surpassing him at something he thought he was good at. I suggest you talk to him either directly on the issue or perhaps more subtly. Strike up a conversation about an interesting build your thinking off, Ask if he would know of any decent feats that would be good, get him talking WITH YOU on an issue it seems both of you enjoy but are currently using as an ego stick. Just read that you are planning on getting shut of him as the DM, that IMO is a good idea he is obviously not mature enough to DM, But again are you in the right place to DM? Will you not just abuse the power to abuse him? I think getting on the right terms with him should be your number 1 aim in the next couple of sessions. My advice to you would be to play a cleric or a wizard and if you choose Wizard be a spell buffer, hardly ever do direct damage spells, You could take a level or two in Bard so you can just choose to sing to give them benefits or something like that. Another route is too make, like you are suggesting, a couple of characters with compatible skills. Either way let this petty arms race go. It is affecting your game! Those of those around you, (They made have decided to get shot of the DM but the other players will also noticed your part to play in it.) Well that’s my 2gp. Grogmir.
Zumarai 01-16-07, 12:12 PM	I am a 10th level character with a spot of 39. How?
Jagyr Ebonwood 01-20-07, 09:30 PM	I am a 10th level character with a spot of 39. How? 13 ranks +2 racial bonus +10 robe of eyes (he mentioned having see invisibility in the OP) +4 wisdom +2 alertness ------------ +31 total... I dunno...you'd have to try real hard to get a +39 in Spot, even at 10th level. Maybe there's some non-core item/feat that we don't know about. Or maybe he meant he got a total of 39 (he said he rolled an 18), so his modifier is +21, which isn't that hard to get with maxed ranks, a good Wis, and some spare cash.
Alucarddarkness 01-25-07, 01:24 PM	your dm is just upset cause your the new "powerhouse." you should have a sit down with your dm and try to work it out. I personally see no problem with how you have been playing in your given examples. Thats role-playing. Your dm might be stuck on roll-playing. or he just has it out for you.