Post/Author/DateTime	Post
mumah 10-14-07, 02:19 PM	Pardon me if this is relatable to another thread elsewhere... Currently I'm a player in a standard DnD game running the Red Hand of Doom module. In the campaign, we have three very knowledgable and experienced gamers, two noobies, and a moderately experienced DM. As it stands, we're all seventh level, but have barely begun the campaign, which is supposed to be for 5th to 12th levels. Seeing that we might be a bit too high for the campaign setting, the DM has been upping the challenge rating and number of encounters, which is all fine and very fun, but, to compensate for the fact that we're getting that much more XP, he's been withholding magic equipment limiting the amount of money we can spend on items in any given location. Even this is tolerable, but the big problem comes from his declaration that we will not be able to level our characters until they've rested for 24 hours after gaining that experience, citing that, "it's like when you lift weights. You build the muscle as you rest." He's also been inconsistantly giving out bonus xp to players, and surprised when they've already qualified for a new level. We've tried to reason with him, but can't seem to make any headway. Any advice?:confused:
Tequila_Sunrise 10-14-07, 06:09 PM	Pardon me if this is relatable to another thread elsewhere... Currently I'm a player in a standard DnD game running the Red Hand of Doom module. In the campaign, we have three very knowledgable and experienced gamers, two noobies, and a moderately experienced DM. As it stands, we're all seventh level, but have barely begun the campaign, which is supposed to be for 5th to 12th levels. Seeing that we might be a bit too high for the campaign setting, the DM has been upping the challenge rating and number of encounters, which is all fine and very fun, but, to compensate for the fact that we're getting that much more XP, he's been withholding magic equipment limiting the amount of money we can spend on items in any given location. Even this is tolerable, but the big problem comes from his declaration that we will not be able to level our characters until they've rested for 24 hours after gaining that experience, citing that, "it's like when you lift weights. You build the muscle as you rest." He's also been inconsistantly giving out bonus xp to players, and surprised when they've already qualified for a new level. We've tried to reason with him, but can't seem to make any headway. Any advice?:confused: How exactly does he 'inconsistently' award XP? That's the only thing you've described that might be unreasonable. The 'no leveling until after 24 hours of rest' is similar to the training rules, which is a somewhat common variant described in the DMG. Other than that possibility, it just sounds like you're not accustomed to the way he's running the game. Let me guess, you're one of the three very knowledgable and experienced players right?
Mock26 10-14-07, 08:39 PM	...the big problem comes from his declaration that we will not be able to level our characters until they've rested for 24 hours after gaining that experience, citing that, "it's like when you lift weights. You build the muscle as you rest." : I don't think that there is anything unreasonable with requiring characters to rest for a set period of time before they level up. This should in no way be detrimental to the group. That is, of course, unless the group plans on running the entire campaign without stopping to rest. The DMG states that it is assumed that characters rest and train between adventures and that if they do not the DM should penalize those characters XP. All your DM is taking a tiny bit of that and adding it into his game for a bit of realism. And, I seriously doubt that you will find yourself in a situation where you will have the requisite XP but haven't been able to advance and that this level difference will in any way negatively affect you. So, since it adds some flavor for the DM and in reality should have virtually no negative impact upon the game, I say don't worry about it.
mumah 10-14-07, 08:43 PM	I guess I didn't illustrate my point enough. He randomly gives out xp bonuses for various reasons, which I'm all for, obviously, but the amount seems to be rather arbitrary (he gives out thousands of points at a time.) While what I'm describing might seem like the training rules, but that's not quite what he's doing. He doesn't keep track of how much xp he's awarding, since when I declared I'm just shy of hitting eighth level, he seemed shocked. At the same time, two other players with 2 fewer sessions under their belt than my character had passed mine and actually hit eighth level, which blew his mind. That I was passed in level doesn't bother me in the slightest, but it's that the DM thought I was the highest in xp and shouldn't be anywhere near the next level. If you're familiar with the Red Hand of Doom, it's a campaign on a clock, where you can barely take a day to rest, and since the game is designed to take us through seven levels, we will be stuck at seventh level throughout the end of the adventure. The DM is a bit of a guesser, openly relying on the players for rules. We're playing a charisma-high campaign, and totally ignores certain attempts at interaction rolls, largely because he's unsure of how to respond to them. I guess the big issue is how to talk to him and come to a common ground with the players and iron out some of the inconsistancy issues. This isn't just my problem, it's a problem that every player in the campaign has talked to him about. It's putting a damper on the whole game and could lead to a player walk-out, which we would like to avoid. I'm just looking for some advice on how to talk to the guy.
Mock26 10-14-07, 08:59 PM	... Then talk to your DM. Tell him that you understand his rule about requiring some down time to gain the benefit of XP, but tell him that you're worried about this down time conflicting with the "timed" nature of the adventure. My experience is that most DM's create house rules out of a love of the game. Most of the time they work out. Sometimes they don't. And sometimes when they don't it is because the DM didn't fully think through all the possible consequences. This just might be one of those situations. So, like I said, talk to him about it. Chances are that he's a reasonable person and a reasonable DM and he'll work with you on it. If he still sticks by his rule, then I say that you still go ahead with the campaign. It might just make the campaign a really challenging one that you will have a lot of fun.
danielinthewolvesden 10-15-07, 12:51 AM	Yep, training is a bad idea in any timed game.
Chibichibiko 10-15-07, 01:41 AM	Well, i've never been a big fan of the 24 hour rest/training rule/item creation time for games that run on a fast-paced in-game schedule. In my own time-packed games, I tend to lift all of the in-game time restrictions. For instance, I ran one game where players went from level 1 to 12 in 2 in-game days time (I scheduled it to work for 6 in-game days, planning a very resource-stretched game, but players were rather lucky on some fights/ambushes where resources were hardly spent.) Item crafting in the game was an issue, as players didn't have time to even forge the base-items things were made of. I decided to disallow item creation feats, but instead make item enhancement easily possible, allowing for item enhancement scrolls to be purchased at-cost of the enchantments themselves. The players knew what they were getting into in the first session, and planned their characters accordingly. I ran with a pretty iron-man group... munchkins all, some pretty creative in terms of tactics, others in terms of optimization. In some ways, they expected me to munchkin the DM'ing, creating 'twink' villains and such. A condensed-time campaign was right up their alley, but it had all kinds of logistical problems for balancing the party worth of each member to not make spellcasters worthless after a short while. Try it sometime, it's pretty rewarding for suspense.
Kouk 10-15-07, 03:01 AM	I've heard of a one night rest before leveling up, but not a full 24 hours of doing nothing. ... and a moderately experienced DM. Maybe you ought to re-classify him as a "newbie" DM? He doesn't seem to have a very firm grasp of the rules, or just doesn't care to use them. "Surprises" like that shouldn't really happen all that much from the DM's end.
kuonji 10-15-07, 04:59 AM	My Red Hand game is about 2 or 3 sessions from ending. I had the players start new characters at 5th level, and they are now 9 9 10 10 10; I expect them to be about 1 level higher by the end of the game. This progression has been based on the standard award system with no bonuses beyond those specificly in the game book itself. The Red Hand campaign does a very good job of advancing the characters along a line of progression that keeps the party's power level relative to the chalenges they will be facing. I think if my group was much higer level, even 1 to 2 levels, they would have found most of the "challenges" not very challenging at all and likely would have breezed through content designed to test their limits. My suggestion would be to talk to your DM and let him know that awarding extra xp will most likely reduce the overall challenge of the game, especially considering your group already began above the suggested starting level. Honestly, if he isn't willing to change his ways, I suggest getting out. Red Hand is a really fun campaign for both players and DMs and you're better off not having it ruined by poor DM decision making.
Ecalsneerg 10-15-07, 06:49 AM	Yep, training is a bad idea in any timed game. I'd agree. Red Hand of Doom isn't written to allow 24 hours just to gain a level.
mumah 10-15-07, 12:21 PM	We've tried talking to him about it, but he has a tendency to be intractable when he has a few players in his face. He said he'd think about it and when he came back with a response a few days later he said he'd spoken with someone about it. We think he's gone to some other gamer for advice, but it ended up being his girlfriend. He's a good guy, and he's not a bad DM. We've throwing him for a bit of a loop too, since we're playing a neutral based, morally flexible scoundrel campaign through RHoD (tons of fun by the way, if you can get some clever players). To compensate for the xp and elevated levels, he's finally starting to figure out how to make the encounters more dangerous. I just want to sit him down somehow and figure out how to get him more consistant, more rules savvy. He relies on us heavily for the rules, until of course they get in the way. I'm okay with the DM fudging some dice rolls for game play, but when you have a DM declare that you can't make diplomacy or bluff rolls in a charismatic campaign that's a whole different beast (we managed to shake him of that one.)
CCS 10-15-07, 02:49 PM	I'd agree. Red Hand of Doom isn't written to allow 24 hours just to gain a level. No, but it also doesn't hurt the story any either (mechanicly) as the timelines large enough to account for people moving around the vale on foot. When my group played through it they easily had several extra days here & there due to the speed they could travel. I had to constantly push things so as to keep up the preasure/illusion. And it's not really important at all once the battle of Brindol occurs.
Kalthandrix 10-15-07, 03:06 PM	Hey all - time for me to chime in as well. I am in the same campaign as mumah, and yes, he and I are two of the three experienced players - all with I think about 20 years of gaming each at least. As mumah has said, we have been working through some of the issues as we come across them, but here is an example of why it is a bad situation. On the town, we all conducted a bit of a side caper that framed the halfling innkeeper and made it look like he was part of the Red Hand - that is what the little runt gets for picking one of our party members pockets :) . At this time my character gained 7th level and was well on his way to 8th. We then town and head to the Keep. On the road, we slew two of the members of our group who were planning an uprising within the ranks (moral flexibility with shady characters can lead to paranoia) and then had another encounter with some dragonkin and howler riding orcs that were chasing a gnome (a replacement character for one of the newly deceased PCs). Once we reached the Keep, we had a huge fight with the inhabitants and cleared the court yard and I think the boss of the area. At the end of the session, my character had gained enough XP to advance to 8th level, so in effect, he never go a chance to use his 7th level abilities because of the 24 hour rule. He (the DM) after talking with his non-gaming girl-friend, has decided to change the adventure and not follow the strict timeline of the adventure "as long as we do not abuse it" he has said - which IMO, drastically changes the whole game experience that the adventure was made to create.
Dunsel 10-15-07, 04:04 PM	The DM sounds like he might be a bit overwhelmed by the adventure path. Maybe he doesn't have the time to prep so he is attempting to slow down the party a little. His obvious surprise is a not good for D&D but I would like to play poker with him! Experienced players can run roughshod over a DM with much less experience, I know b/c I have done just that. Hopefully, he is on the right track now based on Kalthandrix's post. And asking your non-player GF for advise about the game is acceptable ... if she's HOT!
mumah 10-15-07, 06:32 PM	And asking your non-player GF for advise about the game is acceptable ... if she's HOT! She is cute, but the DM's defense of her as a credible advisor was, "It's a basic life question, not a gaming question." Regarding the death of the two PCs...it was really the DMs fault. One player was on his way out of the campaign as it was, but the other that fell on my sword was the Noobie. I think to help the kid along to play with the more experienced players, the DM gave the Noobie some rather ridiculous magic items (a ring of invisibility, a ring of three wishes, a monk cohort, and nearly 10,000 in gold) and a backstory that turned him into a spy whose mission was to eventually bring my character back to my home city. The rest of the party barely had a ring of prot. +1 between them. The Noobie was a late addition to our group, and our characters, while not being together all that long, had been in a few good scraps before meeting Noobie's character. During the first caper after he joined his duskblade to our group, Noobie got up to shenanigans I don't think I could even begin to understand or explain, but nevertheless it highlighted just how fresh to gaming the kid was, and nearly caused the whole party to chop him up into little bits. Later, literally hours after meeting the party, the Noobie then begins openly propositioning other characters in the party to turn against mine. A more exerienced player might have been able to handle a backstory like that, and would have been able to finessed it to work in his favor. I personally would have loved to have seen that (who doesn't enjoy some clever PvP in a scoundrel campaign?), but the point is that the DM essentially killed that character, in part because his continual betrayal, his obvious reports he was sending to those that were after me, and mostly because we knew the crap he had on him was rather valuable, much more valuable than the character. The DM wasted this guy with the power he had, because he simply didn't know how to use it.
Kouk 10-15-07, 07:54 PM	You guys are too much for this DM as he is now. "Morally ambiguous" with players much more experienced than you are as well as players much less experienced than your are who all want to do their own thing at level 7+ is not the best way to train up as a new DM. If you really have to have this guy as the DM (does he even want to be the DM?) and you need to train him, then I think you should start much simpler (lower level), and cooperate by only playing Good alignments and following whatever plot hooks you are fed. I had a bunch of experience as a player before trying to DM, but even so my friends were very cooperative and understanding, and gave me slack for being new.
mumah 10-15-07, 08:51 PM	He really does want to be the DM, and we do cut him a lot of slack. The real issue with jumping ship is that we've developed some very, very interesting and memorable characters that work very well together, also engineering some interesting characters. I want to play this guy a lot longer with this particular group, and I'm also interested to see what kind of trouble we can stir up with our profit-minded morally flexible sensibilities in war-torn Elsir Vale. I think we can work with the DM, but I just need to figure out how to get him to understand, and if anything, just relax. He thinks we're out to get him and are trying to boss him around, which is actually the furthest from the truth. We've all DMed or are DMs, and we've all made those mistakes. I just don't know if any of us have turtle-shelled like he has.
Dragoloth 10-15-07, 08:56 PM	You guys are too much for this DM as he is now. "Morally ambiguous" with players much more experienced than you are as well as players much less experienced than your are who all want to do their own thing at level 7+ is not the best way to train up as a new DM. If you really have to have this guy as the DM (does he even want to be the DM?) and you need to train him, then I think you should start much simpler (lower level), and cooperate by only playing Good alignments and following whatever plot hooks you are fed. I had a bunch of experience as a player before trying to DM, but even so my friends were very cooperative and understanding, and gave me slack for being new. I'm the third guy in the trio of experianced players. Our DM not only wants to DM but prefers it. We three try to help him, even to our characters detriment. We are teaching him the rules. We are trying to play a cohesive group, my character is Mumah's characters bodyguard and Kalthandrix has kept loyal to us both, the interparty conflict came from the DM sending the noob's character(with equipment for a min. 10th level char.) to kill Mumah's character. I am not sure of Mumah but Kalthandrix and myself are experianced DMs and try to help this newer DM as much as possible without taking over his game. One of the new players is a team player but the noob is metagaming with the DM to cause turmoil in the party. The noob also plays in another of the DM's campaigns and the DM trys to make up for the players lack of experience by giving him better equipment.
Kouk 10-15-07, 09:03 PM	Perhaps this person would learn better from a book? Perhaps just ask him to read the DMG chapters on experience and managing a game again, or chip in and buy him a DMG2 (for like $5) which has tips for new DMs.
Kalthandrix 10-15-07, 09:43 PM	I am kind of offended - I was the one who set the n00b on his path to death by suggesting to him that mumah's character was evil and should be removed, and then telling mumah's character that I thought there was a plot against him...praise be to Olidammara, but I did my work that day :D
mumah 10-15-07, 10:11 PM	I am kind of offended - I was the one who set the n00b on his path to death by suggesting to him that mumah's character was evil and should be removed, and then telling mumah's character that I thought there was a plot against him...praise be to Olidammara, but I did my work that day :D Yes, yes, you did set him on the path that led to his death, but he wouldn't have been in harm's way had the DM not set him up to do so.
Wih 10-15-07, 10:46 PM	If he's not letting you level up because you dont have time to rest, then you're still the low level by the next encounter, and still getting low-level experience. You'll be levelling up quicker this way, by the time you actually get to rest. Remember to make him calculate your XP gain on your level, not how much XP you currently have.
Kalthandrix 10-15-07, 10:57 PM	If he's not letting you level up because you dont have time to rest, then you're still the low level by the next encounter, and still getting low-level experience. You'll be levelling up quicker this way, by the time you actually get to rest. Remember to make him calculate your XP gain on your level, not how much XP you currently have. That would be true if he followed the correct rules for calculating XP....
danielinthewolvesden 10-16-07, 03:19 AM	Guys, you should not be doing PK against less experienced players, or with a inexperienced DM. The problem is not him.
mumah 10-16-07, 05:49 AM	Guys, you should not be doing PK against less experienced players, or with a inexperienced DM. The problem is not him. There was nothing malicious about the PK and was totally in keeping with the story, the character, and was nothing personal with player. In point of fact, I was impressed with the Noobie and how well he took to it. Gave me hope in him as a player, but like I said, it was a situation that had no alternative as set up by the DM. (The Noobie had asked every member in the party at least once to help him kill my character.)
Alyri 10-16-07, 12:24 PM	A New Dm with people experienced in gaming playing evil characters. Yeah that isn't a recipe for disaster. Man, wouldn't it be nice if one of the 3 'experienced' players was playing the noobs character. I have always loved to listen to the justifications of PC killing. Keeping with the story is one of the top 2. Come on guys you all are being very passive agressive with the DM and other players and you all know it
1red13 10-16-07, 01:06 PM	Having a inexperienced player try and take out an experienced player, no matter their resources, all i can say is wow. Sounds like a sure fire way to make certain that the noob makes a quick exit to the game. Really what was everybody thinking? "This will be great fun grinding up the noobs. There lack of rules savy will in no way make their experience unpleasant as we succesfully do them in" I can't think of a more enjoyable way to spend time. Making up a character to be pitted against others with what? A 20 YEAR knowledge of the game. I think a little blame can be spread around on that account. Aside from that dms need to knowledgable of the rules. It can be quite frustrating when a dm doesn't and uses the pcs as a crutch. As you've described occasionally cherry picking the rules is a symptom of an inexperienced dm. In the end players can only be patient with a learning dm or suggest that he be a player for a little while longer while he more thoroughly learns the rules
mumah 10-16-07, 03:06 PM	A New Dm with people experienced in gaming playing evil characters. Yeah that isn't a recipe for disaster. Man, wouldn't it be nice if one of the 3 'experienced' players was playing the noobs character. I have always loved to listen to the justifications of PC killing. Keeping with the story is one of the top 2. Come on guys you all are being very passive agressive with the DM and other players and you all know it We're quite open with the DM and our frustrations. We're also being very, very leniant on the Noobie. Coaching him on the rules, even when they hurt us. Often he'll be doing something and we take the extra effort to explain to him why he shouldn't or should be doing something and why. And I mean this quite literally, the DM killed the Noob. It also went over very well and we had a great time, even the Noobie. And by the way, we're not evil. Just not good. Morally flexible. It's a scoundrel campaign, and has been declared as such from the beginning. I fully expect to be assassinated by one of the other experienced players when the profit margin is just right.
danielinthewolvesden 10-16-07, 03:13 PM	There was nothing malicious about the PK and was totally in keeping with the story, the character, and was nothing personal with player. In point of fact, I was impressed with the Noobie and how well he took to it. Gave me hope in him as a player, but like I said, it was a situation that had no alternative as set up by the DM. (The Noobie had asked every member in the party at least once to help him kill my character.) Sure there was. Sit down with the Newb and the newb DM and explain to them that this will lead to a PK, and the more experienced players will win. Explain to them why it is bad, and why they shouldn't do it. Instead you took advantage of both in order to score some "phat lewt".
Kalthandrix 10-16-07, 03:47 PM	Hahaha - I really was the DM this time and I had no intention on doing this until the new guy came up to me character. Here is a bit of something the DM sent me - this is a "dream" my character had where Olidammara talks to my character (who is a rogue/cleric of Olidammara) “Watch also, for the young one who bears the red griffin in the group (the new guy). Keep your eye closely on him, for he may play an important role in the future. There may come a day when you must either aid his cause, or kill him. Either way, his spoils go to you..." That is material straight from the DMs own hand. Now just the session before this came up, I had my character spend some in character time coaching the new guy - talking in character about some things and how to avoid some issues. Unfortunatly, because of the DM's coaching, he later approached my character (in character) after I had received this dream, and starts off by saying that he did not really like things that Raif (mumah's PC) was doing and that they seemed selfish. Going with the fact that my character had just received this dream from his god, that is where my PC suggested that Raif was evil and then going to Raif and telling him of this polt against him. Sure I kind of set it up, but I was playing my character to the hilt in this case. Now we all like the new guy - he took it all well and much better than I have seen experienced players deal with a character's death - and we have been aiding him even more with his new character. But once again the DM set up a situation that would make our shifty characters leery of welcoming him by the way the DM introduced the new guys character to our group. I think it is also improtant to note that none of our characters, or even us players, knew that the DM was handing the new guy a rign of wishes or of invisibility - so it was not that we were killing him for his "phat lewt" as danielinthewolvesden put it - heck the DM even made the ring of wished mysteriously crumble to dust at the time of the characters death - so no one knew he had it.
Wih 10-16-07, 06:26 PM	Sit down with your DM and ask him to write out a list of all his houserules. He isn't going to think his calculating XP is a houserule, so after he's signed off his list, tell him to read his DMG, or get someone else to calculate XP. If there's one thing that irritates me more than silly houserules, it's inconsistent DMs.
mumah 10-16-07, 07:20 PM	The PK on the Noob was purely incidental. Honestly, and we did everything we could to make sure the kid did not storm out. Hell, even in the middle of battle everyone laid their cards on the table and explained how things came to this, taking extra care with the noob to make sure he understood why things were happening. Everyone, including the noob, had a great time with the scenario and how it turned out. And the noob admitted he learned a valuable lesson in common sense and subtlety. We didn't kill him for his stuff. I killed him because I honestly feared for my character's life. I killed him because I was set up to do so. Him or me. I would like to re-iterate that we're playing a scoundrel campaign. From the start, "Pirate" was and is the tone. I think a lot of people here are bringing their own baggage to the table in regard to the PK. We've stated from the getgo that we expect characters to die at the hand or at the expense of other characters. Had you been there, you'd have seen there was no other way possible. The DM set him on his path, and like an elephant in a glass store, proceeded to ask everyone to try to kill my character, going so far as to set up a time, and a place, and a code phrase to initiate the scenario. The kid really has come out stronger for it. We sat down with him, helped him build his new character. He's picked up on a few tricks, ways to look at a build, and tactics and strategy. And, naturally, the art of subtely and timing in regards to setting another PC up for a fall.
Dragoloth 10-16-07, 09:24 PM	Sure there was. Sit down with the Newb and the newb DM and explain to them that this will lead to a PK, and the more experienced players will win. Explain to them why it is bad, and why they shouldn't do it. Instead you took advantage of both in order to score some "phat lewt". The DM had already set off a PvP by having the noob's misson(as told to us by the noob) to take out Mumah's character. The "phat lewt" wasn't even known about until the battle started, where the noob started trying to use it. The ring of wishes was known about because the noob was promiseing wishes in return for help. The loot didn't matter to me, a assassin was removed from the group, worse of all it was the DM's assassin.(although played by the noob)
danielinthewolvesden 10-17-07, 02:43 AM	The DM had already set off a PvP by having the noob's misson(as told to us by the noob) to take out Mumah's character. The "phat lewt" wasn't even known about until the battle started, where the noob started trying to use it. The ring of wishes was known about because the noob was promiseing wishes in return for help. The loot didn't matter to me, a assassin was removed from the group, worse of all it was the DM's assassin.(although played by the noob) Which is exactly why YOU two, as the experienced players, needed to "Sit down with the Newb and the newb DM and explain to them that this will lead to a PK, and the more experienced players will win. Explain to them why it is bad, and why they shouldn't do it." You had to know this was unwise on both their parts, yet you allowed it to happen, just to score a cheap victory and phat lewt. When you found out about it, why did you NOT sit down with both of them and explain why this was unwise, OOC?
mumah 10-17-07, 12:11 PM	Which is exactly why YOU two, as the experienced players, needed to "Sit down with the Newb and the newb DM and explain to them that this will lead to a PK, and the more experienced players will win. Explain to them why it is bad, and why they shouldn't do it." You had to know this was unwise on both their parts, yet you allowed it to happen, just to score a cheap victory and phat lewt. When you found out about it, why did you NOT sit down with both of them and explain why this was unwise, OOC? You speak as if none of this happened. We did explain it to them. We did talk to them OOC. And again, the PK is not an issue. We had a lot of fun, even the noob. However, we had to play it out, nor am I celebrating the victory because I know just how cheap it was. The reason the PK was brought up in the first place was to illustrate the peculiar place the DM is coming from. And, once again, we're in a campaign where PKs are a great possibility. We've all known that, even from the beginning. Ease off the PK, would ya?
Alyri 10-17-07, 01:15 PM	We question because you keep saying. We had a lot of fun, even the noob. but are complaining about the Dm gimping. The style of the game is not one that a newer Dm and even newer players should not be running/playing. The 3 expirenced players have a little cabal going(assumption from your remarks). instead of trying to help the game along it appears to be more of a 'we are kicking but not matter what the dm is throwing at us and we aint getting our deserved rewards'