Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ThatOneMonk 11-22-04, 11:38 AM	Last saturday we started a campaign that takes place during the Last War in Eberron, where we are general officers for Breland. Our first mission was to go take back a homlet that was taken over by Thrane, because it is a stopping point for the lightning rail. Anyways, my character is a fighter 4/weremaster 5/Warshaper with the tiger shifting form. His combat stradegy is he gets buffed by his Druid cohort (which isn't really necessary, just overkill), pounces on the enemy officer, and rips him into 20 pieces with his 5 natural attacks + rend, at around +20 2d10+21 damage each. He is also Huge when he shifts (permanancy), has the VoP, and it's just crazy. Very first encounter, as I approached one of the enemys far hill embunkments with my army, a thranish officer who pribes himself on killing lycanthropes and shifters alike, ruins his ambush setup to come and kill me. I grossly outnumbered him, but I simply challenged him to a duel in hopes of taking his men to my side. He immediatly accepted and shot a few slivered magic arrows on some nonsense at me. ouch. So I shifted, got to him in one turn, pounced, proceeded to hit with all of my attacks except one of my rakes, and did 184 damage to him that round. I later found out that he only had 76 HP. As a result from the encounter, my human soldiers are afraid of me, but my shifter soldiers think I'm some kind of god. Out of game, the DM was quite upset. He argued (with some agreement from the other players) that my character was far too powerful. I should not be able to kill someone of equal level to me in one round. He said I was able to kill 2 of the other three party members in one round easily, and the last one would simply take some time (dwarven defender with AC 46ish). He also said magic buffing was too good and would have to be limited to one encounter per buff, and massive damage spells would be illegal under "Laws of War". (My druid casted Ice Storm on a flanking unit of spearmen and killed half of them.) He said my character would have to be nerfed severely, but I opted to simply change my character, as I don't really want to see that happen. What do you guys think?
monkeywrench 11-22-04, 12:18 PM	Last saturday we started a campaign that takes place during the Last War in Eberron, where we are general officers for Breland. Our first mission was to go take back a homlet that was taken over by Thrane, because it is a stopping point for the lightning rail. Anyways, my character is a fighter 4/weremaster 5/Warshaper with the tiger shifting form. His combat stradegy is he gets buffed by his Druid cohort (which isn't really necessary, just overkill), pounces on the enemy officer, and rips him into 20 pieces with his 5 natural attacks + rend, at around +20 2d10+21 damage each. He is also Huge when he shifts (permanancy), has the VoP, and it's just crazy. Very first encounter, as I approached one of the enemys far hill embunkments with my army, a thranish officer who pribes himself on killing lycanthropes and shifters alike, ruins his ambush setup to come and kill me. I grossly outnumbered him, but I simply challenged him to a duel in hopes of taking his men to my side. He immediatly accepted and shot a few slivered magic arrows on some nonsense at me. ouch. So I shifted, got to him in one turn, pounced, proceeded to hit with all of my attacks except one of my rakes, and did 184 damage to him that round. I later found out that he only had 76 HP. As a result from the encounter, my human soldiers are afraid of me, but my shifter soldiers think I'm some kind of god. Out of game, the DM was quite upset. He argued (with some agreement from the other players) that my character was far too powerful. I should not be able to kill someone of equal level to me in one round. He said I was able to kill 2 of the other three party members in one round easily, and the last one would simply take some time (dwarven defender with AC 46ish). He also said magic buffing was too good and would have to be limited to one encounter per buff, and massive damage spells would be illegal under "Laws of War". (My druid casted Ice Storm on a flanking unit of spearmen and killed half of them.) He said my character would have to be nerfed severely, but I opted to simply change my character, as I don't really want to see that happen. What do you guys think? At first glance, I'd have to agree with the DM, right up until I saw that line about magic buffing being too good and massive damage spells being illegal under "laws of war". Because those just sound like an inept DM being severly whiny. What I'll need instead is more information. I need stats, feats you have, how your attack bonus and damage rolls are calculated, that sort of thing. Also, your posessions list, to prove you actually deserve VoP. That feat is twitchy sometimes. Honestly, it just sounds like your DM doesn't know how to make good NPCs. But let's make sure
Mikal 11-22-04, 12:22 PM	If you're able to make 5 attacks you're either a high level monk or a mid level monk with TWF... but the fact you said 2d10 damage unarmed makes me think more like High level monk. If you're attacking someone of 'equal' level and he has 76 hp, then the DM is particularly inept...
ThatOneMonk 11-22-04, 01:09 PM	He can do 5 natural attacks on the charge. He changes into a tiger form or a hybrid form. Here are his stats off the top of my head (I'm at school). Str 18 Dex 18 Con 16 Int 6 Wis 14 Cha 10 Shifting stats: Str 32 Dex 24 Con 24 same same same feats and such to get 2d10 + 21 damage razorclaw, Improved Natural attack, weremaster razor claw thing, Huge sized (Enlarge person permanant), Tiger's natural attack, Warshaper natural attack ability He has no possessions. tell me if i missed anything or if there's anything you'd like to know.
Wil Harvey 11-22-04, 01:32 PM	Anytime you min/max a character, he's gonna be incredibly powerful, especially when you min/max one that shapeshifts. It's a broken character, pure and simple. If you are interested in being as powerful as you can be, keep on going with that character. If you're interested in being part of a fun game that everyone enjoys, tone it down a bit. Develop your characters with more emphasis on who they are instead of how powerful they can be.
Mikal 11-22-04, 01:38 PM	Anytime you min/max a character, he's gonna be incredibly powerful, especially when you min/max one that shapeshifts. It's a broken character, pure and simple. If you are interested in being as powerful as you can be, keep on going with that character. If you're interested in being part of a fun game that everyone enjoys, tone it down a bit. Develop your characters with more emphasis on who they are instead of how powerful they can be. Why o why is it 'broken' to be good in combat? If he had a diplomacy skill in the 30's and was able to talk everyone over to his side, would that make him 'broken'? It's a bunch of crap that, if someone wants to be good at combat, they get labeled with the broken sticker. Your character isn't broken. He's well made. If your DM has a problem with it, then he needs to learn how to use the rules better. You haven't used 50 different third party source books, and, outside of that permanency, I don't see anything TOO hinky about it (tho i'd like to know how you got permenancy as a VOP).
ChaoticGod 11-22-04, 02:18 PM	I hate your Weremaster too. 'Using the rules', your DM would probably have to spend alot of extra time and effort to create min/maxed encounters, that if actually challenging to this character, will more than likely kill the other PCs. Yep, I hate this character alot.
Thoronmir 11-22-04, 02:29 PM	I'm just curious how well you roleplay that 6 INT. That would seem to be a major hindrance for military commander. In my game, that would pretty much preclude any tactical plans and limit you to strategies like “See enemy, charge enemy!” But, I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you were actually playing your PC’s intelligence rather than dumping a low score into a skill that didn't matter to you then trying to play him smarter than he was. It sounds like your DM allowed something without realizing its effect on his game. My players create their PCs in concert with me, so there are very few surprises once the game starts. But I’ve known DMs who allow the players to make their PCs and the DM never sees them until the campaign starts. For those DMs, I recommend you always ask the following question for exotic combat PCs … “What is your optimum combat technique and what bonuses and damage will it give you?” Many DMs cannot translate a list of base stats, abilities, and feats into cumulative attacks, bonuses, and damage. It’s within a DM’s purview to determine whether a PC is overpowered for his game. That doesn’t mean your PC is “broken” … it just means it’s “broken” in the context of your DM’s campaign.
Wil Harvey 11-22-04, 02:56 PM	Why o why is it 'broken' to be good in combat? If he had a diplomacy skill in the 30's and was able to talk everyone over to his side, would that make him 'broken'? It's a bunch of crap that, if someone wants to be good at combat, they get labeled with the broken sticker. Your character isn't broken. He's well made. If your DM has a problem with it, then he needs to learn how to use the rules better. You haven't used 50 different third party source books, and, outside of that permanency, I don't see anything TOO hinky about it (tho i'd like to know how you got permenancy as a VOP). A military commander with a 6 INT is well-made? I don't know, maybe my game is different, but in the game me and my friends run, we're all very capable of being good in combat without the need to min/max our characters so much as to overshadow other players. That's just my game, though.
Thorak 11-22-04, 03:31 PM	Like Mikal said; having a Permanent Enlarge spell, or whatever that is, broke your Vow of Poverty. Even if it was a quest reward. That's when your character, as a VoP character, says "oh, that's okay, use the energy for a charitable purpose." And a 6 Int? Don't be doin' much high-level plotting. The biggest problem, though, is your Will save. Warshaper and Fighter both have poor Will saves; your Warshaper (a 5 level PrC) and Fighter levels give you a ginormous +2. I assume the Weremaster (I don't have the book it's in) is similarly a low-will class. Meaning your 5 levels there are another +1. Add in your Wisdom bonus, and we've got a +5 save. Even if you took Vow of Obedience, for a +4 to will saves against compulsions, a 14th level Bard or Wizard with Dominate and a casting stat of at least 20 (by no means outside possibility) has a 50% or better chance of Dominating you. And that's if you took that feat. And that's hardly the only type of will-save spell. A comparable-level spellcaster with a modicum of intelligence will take control of your character and slaughter your party. I don't call that "well-made".
Mikal 11-22-04, 03:34 PM	A military commander with a 6 INT is well-made? I don't know, maybe my game is different, but in the game me and my friends run, we're all very capable of being good in combat without the need to min/max our characters so much as to overshadow other players. That's just my game, though. Wisdom 14 however. Intelligence isn't the end all be all. He could be an idiot savant who's instinctivly good at tactics. Not all good commanders are book smart geniuses
monkeywrench 11-22-04, 03:39 PM	He can do 5 natural attacks on the charge. He changes into a tiger form or a hybrid form. Here are his stats off the top of my head (I'm at school). Str 18 Dex 18 Con 16 Int 6 Wis 14 Cha 10 Shifting stats: Str 32 Dex 24 Con 24 same same same feats and such to get 2d10 + 21 damage razorclaw, Improved Natural attack, weremaster razor claw thing, Huge sized (Enlarge person permanant), Tiger's natural attack, Warshaper natural attack ability He has no possessions. tell me if i missed anything or if there's anything you'd like to know. Do you ROLEPLAY that 6 INT? Because there's no way you should be a military commander. You should be a grunt, a really big grunt that the commander calls in to deal with problems that require a lot of killing and no brainpower. Not that there's anything wrong with that at all. You seem fine for VoP, so that's aight You said you only do that much damage on a charge? What does your damage look like for a normal Full Attack? If it's not near as high, your DM is being whiny. There's any number of ways to stop a charging character who does a lot of damage. The fact that he's opposed to buffing and high-level damage spells reinforces this. It looks to me like he just needs advice on how to make NPCs and challenges which can circumvent your advantages. Like, oh I don't know, having a caster with Dispel Magic on hand to wipe out your buffs? Or setting up some trenches or barbwire so you can't charge? How about enemy casters drop some of those "high damaging" spells on you? Minus the roleplaying aspect mentioned above, I see nothing wrong with your character. I'd say the problem is your DM's NPCs are just too weak. I like Ice Storm and all, but no way should it wipe out a ton of spearmen if the ELs correct.
Megrim_Lord 11-22-04, 03:45 PM	I'm sorry, but I'm just going to take this moment to snicker at your DM. At the level you are at, if he thinks that is overpowered, he should go back to lower level games. The laws of war/buff spell nerfage is crap, and in war, all sorts of advantages are taken, and the "laws of war" are shattered. If he has a problem with your character, then he should have a problem with the Dwarven Defender as well, because that kind of AC should be reserved for at the very least level 19 - Epic levels Show your DM the optimization boards if you really want to give him a heart attack. I'd have to say your DM doesn't know what powerful is, and suffers from "Severe Paranoid Nerfbatophrenia" but then again, that is merely my opinion.
Phrennzy 11-22-04, 04:42 PM	He can do 5 natural attacks on the charge. He changes into a tiger form or a hybrid form. Here are his stats off the top of my head (I'm at school). Str 18 Dex 18 Con 16 Int 6 Wis 14 Cha 10 Shifting stats: Str 32 Dex 24 Con 24 same same same feats and such to get 2d10 + 21 damage razorclaw, Improved Natural attack, weremaster razor claw thing, Huge sized (Enlarge person permanant), Tiger's natural attack, Warshaper natural attack ability He has no possessions. Wow. Munchkin but not the worst. A 6 INT? C'mon. Permanent Enlarged person would be NOTHING but trouble. Can't lead a normal life. What a freakshow! He couldn't eat in the tavern, no normal furniture would support him (and with VoP, it sounds like he coudn't have special furnishings made). He would scare the everyday folk. He might even crack/break through the floor of any shop he enters. Of course, with VoP, there'd be no reason to enter the shop. "FREAK!" Get used to that.
Thoronmir 11-22-04, 05:04 PM	Wisdom 14 however. Intelligence isn't the end all be all. He could be an idiot savant who's instinctivly good at tactics. Not all good commanders are book smart geniusesNo one said only "geniuses" can command. But INT includes mental acuity, rational thought, and the ability to plan. WIS helps, but everyone I know considers strategy a matter of intellect more than judgment. Also, as a DM, I have a name for a player who dumps a crappy stat into INT then tries to say he’s an idiot savant at the one thing for which he really needs INT … I call them former players in my campaign. It’s no different than someone who dumps a 6 into DEX then tries to convince me that he’s very clumsy all the time except in battle, so he ought not to suffer the AC modifier. It’s time for some players to realize that low “mental” stats have consequences too.
monkeywrench 11-22-04, 06:02 PM	Wow. Munchkin but not the worst. A 6 INT? C'mon. Permanent Enlarged person would be NOTHING but trouble. Can't lead a normal life. What a freakshow! He couldn't eat in the tavern, no normal furniture would support him (and with VoP, it sounds like he coudn't have special furnishings made). He would scare the everyday folk. He might even crack/break through the floor of any shop he enters. Of course, with VoP, there'd be no reason to enter the shop. "FREAK!" Get used to that. Yeah. Big, stupid, oaf. Good for killing a lot of things. Living a normal life in civilization? Never happen.
Afarian 11-22-04, 06:38 PM	I actually agreed with the DM at first! But I don't really know the classes that well and after reading some other posts I agree that although your character seems a bit like a min/maxed munchkin the DM should have realized that before (especially letting you start out at lvl 9!! WTH!!) and definetly should have thought up something more challenging then a general with 79hp! IMO, the DM should make challenges that aren't going to fear/be to easy for someone that happens to have high dmg output but low intelligence!
wonlee76 11-22-04, 07:21 PM	Fighter 4/Weremaster 5/Warshaper 1 with VoP and Leadership? I don't know much about this weremaster prestige class or what the pre-requisites are but since this is an Eberron setting can I presume you're a changeling? Glancing things over, you chose a combination that is extremely powerful (presuming everything you listed as powers/feats stack with each other). With VoP, not sure how you got the money to get a permanent enlarge person seeing as your cohort druid should not be able to cast enlarge person or permanency (presuming changelings are considered humanoids for purposes of enlarge person, charm person, etc.). Also, how exactly are you RPing a VoP soldier/general. I know there is nothing wrong with being a VoP soldier but the concept seems to be a bit of a stretch of the imagination (I've never allowed a VoP character in my game so just curious as to how the RP aspect of VoP works with your character). If you want to be nice to your DM, you could downgrade the power of your character to be a bit more on par with your fellow players. Drop the VoP and maybe even leadership in exchange for some other feats. At least the power of VoP and the druid cohort will reduce your power level to be more on par with your group (but you will still be much more powerful then they are overall). Double check the pre-reqs on the prestige class. I'm almost certain you don't meet the skill pre-reqs for the weremaster with just 4 levels of fighter considering you have a 6 intelligence and 1 skill point/level.
ThatOneMonk 11-22-04, 07:34 PM	Your critizism is welcomed. He's enlarged and has greater magic fang because he was "blessed" by the "tribe medicine man" to fight the Thranish oppressors. He took advantage of his influence to use the Breish army to help him fight Thrane. He hasn't really shown any real strategical value. He mostly uses his might to either coax aggression from enemy so they will blow there position, or simply intimidate them. If they are stupid enough to fight him, then he goes straight for the leader. Hopefully, this will cause the enemy to turntail in order to reduce bloodshed. He gets 3 attacks in a full attack action (bite, 2 claw) plus a rend. However, with a plus 33 to grapple, he can use his 2 rake attacks as well, which are almost just as good (-2). I'm still not sure what exactly to do. The DM seems pretty intent on nerfing my character. I really don't want to see that, and I wouldn't mind playing a strategic monk. But I wouldn't mind keeping my character if I could argue it. I do understand, however, how trying that can be on a DM. He definitly was not happy that I did that much damage. Any new thoughts on the new information I've provided?
Phrennzy 11-22-04, 09:50 PM	What the heck does Vow of Poverty give you? I see it thrown around on this board so often, but never a specific of what you gain. Bottom line is that you are going to have to reduce the effectiveness of your character in order to make him fit in with the group. I'd suggest you do it before your DM does. How about dropping the size from HUGE to Large. That's slightly more realisitic.
kliate 11-22-04, 10:16 PM	VoP in a nutshell: Boosted stats, enhancement bonuses to ALL attacks and MORE bonus feats - graduated over the course of 20 levels. (There's more, too - it's just that ugly). I exclusively limit VoP to dungeon crawls...oh, how I hate that feat...
Thorak 11-22-04, 10:29 PM	Your critizism is welcomed. He's enlarged and has greater magic fang because he was "blessed" by the "tribe medicine man" to fight the Thranish oppressors. He took advantage of his influence to use the Breish army to help him fight Thrane. This breaches his vow of poverty. He would have to, by the restrictions of the vow, ask that the medicine man use his power for other purposes. Just because it's a gift doesn't mean you can take it. He hasn't really shown any real strategical value. He mostly uses his might to either coax aggression from enemy so they will blow there position, or simply intimidate them. If they are stupid enough to fight him, then he goes straight for the leader. Hopefully, this will cause the enemy to turntail in order to reduce bloodshed. Agreed; intelligence doesn't make a good commander, nor does a lack of intelligence make a bad one. Had no problems with that aspect, just pointed out that a 6 int makes for all kinds of thought-process issues you should be roleplaying. "Durr, door open in? Oops..." I'm still not sure what exactly to do. The DM seems pretty intent on nerfing my character. I really don't want to see that, and I wouldn't mind playing a strategic monk. But I wouldn't mind keeping my character if I could argue it. I do understand, however, how trying that can be on a DM. He definitly was not happy that I did that much damage. Any new thoughts on the new information I've provided? Point out to your DM that your character is horribly weak in the Will save department. This inevitably happens with grossly min/maxed characters; they'll end up hideously powerful in one arena (in your case, physical combat), and weak in another (again, in your case, being mind-controlled and then forced to attack the party).
Xarian 11-22-04, 10:50 PM	The character is valid insofar as rules go, except maybe the permanency issue. Even that's just a drop in the bucket, however. The problem is VoP. I haven't and will never allow that feat in any of my games.
ThatOneMonk 11-22-04, 11:04 PM	Interestion points on the VoP. The 'gift' in question was rather part of the role play. He is chosen to defend the tribe. It's not really a possession either. My DM rather liked that idea. He did not realize my character was powerful until the 184 damage was dealt. Even when I was rolling my 10d10 he was saying how I would have to roll high to kill him... then I added in all the 21s... hehe
Crossover-Chronicler 11-23-04, 02:10 AM	Interestingly, I have recently hade the privelige of DMing for a group that included not only a Wetertouched Master/Warshaper, but also a character with Vow of Poverty. The Weretouched Master was cheesier by far. However, the combination does have its limits, which a smart DM can exploit. For example, Shifting lasts only a limited time, and some of the nastier applications of Warshaper take time to apply (morphic weapons: a move-equivalent action per natural attack. morphic healing: a full-round action for the 10hp version). The tricks that take actions require preparation for the nastiest applications. The Warshaper in my campaign always tried to shift before battle, and spent half his shifting duration augmenting/sprouting natural weapons before staging an ambush. Second, shifting is limited by uses per day, meaning multiple spaced encounters work to the shifter's disadvantage. Also, many of the Warshaper/Weretouched master abilities rely on natural attacks, making it harder for such a character to deal with incorporeal creatures, or with creatured with signiificant damage reduction or regeneration. Also, the Shifter in my campaign died as the result of a failed Will save. (And died again later because of a natural "1" on a Fortitude save, but that's an aberration). Also, he had a little trouble with Reflex saves.
Thorak 11-23-04, 09:00 AM	Interestion points on the VoP. The 'gift' in question was rather part of the role play. He is chosen to defend the tribe. It's not really a possession either. It is a possession. It's something the character possesses, even if it's an effect put upon him. A VoP character, confronted with someone wanting to give them a Permanent spell as a reward/gift, should refuse and ask that the magical power be used to benefit those in need. It makes no difference if the "item" enchanted is your body, or an item. Taking the enchantment to gain benefit is claiming ownership, and voids the Vow.
jasper 11-23-04, 09:15 AM	Let me see you started last Saturday and you already level nine? Oh look can I play Arnold as a war tiger but with Forrest Gump’s Int.
Phrennzy 11-23-04, 09:35 AM	"Life is like a box of chocolaAARRR!!! NOW YOU DIE!!!"
Thorak 11-23-04, 10:32 AM	Let me see you started last Saturday and you already level nine? Oh look can I play Arnold as a war tiger but with Forrest Gump’s Int. Who says he started at level 1? And even if he did, perhaps he and his party overcame massive obstacles through good planning and ingenuity, and got bunchloads of experience. My issues are with the mechanical flaws I see in the character. There's no real need to start flaming the guy because you disagree with his character or the level he's achieved. Especially since nothing he's mentioned is outside the realm of possibility, in D&D. Except for having a permanent enchantment while being a VoP character, of course. Though that's a fairly fine point that has a great deal to do with the spirit of the ability, and that kind of stuff is why the BoED is a Mature book (No, it's not the nudity on one page. The MM has more nudity, and isn't a Mature text. It's Mature because it deals with complicated moral issues.)
Naeron 11-23-04, 12:15 PM	feats and such to get 2d10 + 21 damage You would need to post a full character list but I get the feeling that you might be missing some things here. Only the main claw attacks get full strength damage, the bite counts as a secondary attacks so suffer the -5 to hit (as you haven't listed multi-attack in your feats which drops them to -2) and both the bite and the rakes apply half strength bonus to damage. Also your shifted form may not get the benefit from being enlarged to Huge (and do you start out as large, if you did that would mean an LA adjustment I would have thought) as it certainly has no effect once you have shifted to animal form I would think, without the eberon book I can't be sure of this though.
obrysii 11-23-04, 10:43 PM	Just wait until your DM sends a dragon fully min/maxed for AC after you. Good luck hitting the 50+ AC. Doesn't matter what kind of attacks you have if you can't hit them.
Calaheardof 11-23-04, 11:52 PM	Okay, I am a player in this group, so I have a few things to say. Okay, I am going to sound very accusatory but I don't mean it that way. There are a few things he didn't really mention that are taking place here. First of the NPC that was killed was not a tank or a warrior. He was an archer that used range to kill foes. Now, the NPC was also a total idiot and got way to close. For that I do blame the DM. But, the PC in question did enough damage in that single round of combat that he would have killed not only that NPC but also enough to kill virtually anything the DM can through at us with out being called a killer DM. The low Will Save is a weakness but if that PC switches sides we are dead. Now, I don't want him to switch characters. I think that if the permanency buffs are taken away he will be balanced. Also, another reason why he did do much damage was due to house rules that move the large battle combats along more quickly. We are working the problems out of those house rules still for the campaign and this little ordeal brought some of them to light. Sorry if that sounded too rant like.
Thorak 11-24-04, 01:50 AM	Okay, I am a player in this group, so I have a few things to say. Okay, I am going to sound very accusatory but I don't mean it that way. There are a few things he didn't really mention that are taking place here. First of the NPC that was killed was not a tank or a warrior. He was an archer that used range to kill foes. Now, the NPC was also a total idiot and got way to close. For that I do blame the DM. But, the PC in question did enough damage in that single round of combat that he would have killed not only that NPC but also enough to kill virtually anything the DM can through at us with out being called a killer DM. The low Will Save is a weakness but if that PC switches sides we are dead. Now, I don't want him to switch characters. I think that if the permanency buffs are taken away he will be balanced. Also, another reason why he did do much damage was due to house rules that move the large battle combats along more quickly. We are working the problems out of those house rules still for the campaign and this little ordeal brought some of them to light. Sorry if that sounded too rant like. Emphasis mine. If you max out a character's ability in one respect, like dealing damage, you leave yourself almost invariably weak in another. For combat characters, this is often their Will save, meaning they're easy pickin's for enemy spellcasters. The usual solution is magical items that prevent mind control, or that boost will saves. But that's not an option for a VoP character (though there's a few Exalted feats he could take to offset it, but like I said, even with the feats a similarly-leveled caster can Dominate him better than 50% of the time). This is the price he pays for min/maxing. He's grossly powerful. And if the enemy ever starts playing smart, he'll end up killing the party. If that's an issue to the party IC, and the group OOC, then perhaps he should retire the character and start a new one. This is the same reason why the Frenzied Berserker PrC should never be used for a PC; you become an unstoppable engine of death, but you can very easily turn on the party.
Sildatorak 11-24-04, 05:53 AM	A targetted dispel magic against him would probably get rid of his buffs, and enlarge person is not a subtle spell. It wouldn't be metagaming on the DM's part for a spellcaster on the opposing side to ready action to dispel once he gets close enough to strike at the troops/officer/whoever is out in front. That is what high intelligence tactics are all about. If the DM is failing to see that your character is an obvious brutish threat and acting on it appropriately, then he shouldn't be whining (though the VoP should prevent you from having those permanent spells on you, at least in spirit). Dispel magic, hold person, deep slumber, and dominate person are all valid magical methods of dealing with this character. Depending on how good your armor class is, you could find yourself on the receiving end of some nasty sneak attacks as a mundane way of dealing with you. You charge the guy who has used improved feint on you and readied an action to attack, expect to get some nasty damage. If it is a smart character, his hidden buddies will hit you with sneak attack as well. A pair of Wizard 3/Rogue X who had buffed themselves with invisibility could easily ready action to hit you with ray of frost (or any other ray that deals damage, I like scorching ray, myself) and add some nice SA damage on it. If your character is 9th level and is a combat monster, folk will have heard of him. They will have sat up late preparing tactics to specifically counter him. They will probably be able to kill him if they focus properly and lure this dunce into an ambush.
Wil Harvey 11-24-04, 12:26 PM	Point out to your DM that your character is horribly weak in the Will save department. This inevitably happens with grossly min/maxed characters; they'll end up hideously powerful in one arena (in your case, physical combat), and weak in another (again, in your case, being mind-controlled and then forced to attack the party). lol. So not only are the players completely overshadowed by this character, should any spellcaster decide to control the character, the party would also have the pleasure of being killed by him. Win/win.
eshadowe 11-24-04, 01:54 PM	ok i have a few comments/questions. All i hear are numbers, how about character.... One I'd give you negatives to hit cause you don't have multiattack, and don't undertand why you are huge (is the form you 'change to huge') or you think that your 'main' forms' permancy crosses over (I wouldn't use that, just treat it as Polymorph self that way - you become the average version of the animal). In my last campaign i had a ridiculassly tough Troll/9th level Cleric, weirlding Two Great swords, with improved Critical, Improved Two weopon style, an extra bite attack. He was GREAT. A tough roleplaying character that ROLEPLAYS is great, it gives him room to actually not act in 'optimal' situations to solve his problems. So if this character is the LAST character to try and fight, resolving problems via talking, hiding or ploting, than that is great...if he uses combat to solve all of his problems, this is a problem. And NOT because he's tough, only because he outshines the other players. I don't suggest abandoning him, it seems there are a few examples of using the rules to make him more exceptable here, and all sound good. As well make sure he isn't overshadowing the other players and you should all work together to make it fun for everyone.
Thorak 11-24-04, 01:59 PM	Like I said; he's only overshadowing the other players because the DM is catering to him. He's a melee beast. And the DM's solution, apparently, is to throw tougher and tougher melee fights at him to see if he can overpower him. Guess what? You're fighting against his character's strengths. Nail the weaknessess a few times and he'll stop overshadowing the party.
Crossover-Chronicler 11-24-04, 02:38 PM	The low Will Save is a weakness but if that PC switches sides we are dead.Mind control isn't the only thing that requires a Will save.Now, I don't want him to switch characters. I think that if the permanency buffs are taken away he will be balanced.A single spellcasting enemy with a dispel magic could fix that...
ThatOneMonk 11-25-04, 12:36 AM	YAY!, my character is not a complete monster! Thanks for the good new on how much my characters weaknesses can be exploited. I really hope the DM reads this now! :D just joking :P Anyways, what it sounds like is my character should be fine if I take away the permanancy shiz, which will take my attack down to 2d8+17 at +19. Ill have to check all the math and stuff, but that sounds about right. It will take away from my grapple a little too. He'll still be a beast in combat, but at least he won't be a complete monster, plus, my DM maybe can realize all the fun ways to destroy him! weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! Seriously though, thanks once again for your help, everyone. If there's anything else, please feel free to add.