Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kailas 08-09-05, 03:10 PM	We were playing a fairly standard campaign with a friend who was normally a player DMing. I played a blaster mage who could deal out a lot of damage, but couldn't take any for $%*@. The DM didn't seem to understand the frail part because he began to second guess every single thing I did. Now this is a very high level campaign so explaining each move can take up to 10 minutes! Its hardly economical to continue doing this. Now he chants at me about being a powerplayer and hes gotten most of the other players to do this too... wtf? And our world just got blown up so we teleported to another where pretty much everything is spell immune... its just dumb. He okays the most ridiculous prestige classes the martial characters make up then dosen't let me take Prestiges from pre-approved wizard made supplements. My spell list is practically stripped to things that effect spell immune creatures. THis is because theres an extremely common substance in this new world that exudes DEAD MAGIC. Its not spell resistance, its not even immunity, its frickin dead magic that cant be distrupted by mordenkainen's disjunction or anything. And every punk level 2 warrior has it. I've bassically taken to using telekineses to throw heavy objects at them, thats what I've been reduced to. All this because the DM dosen't understand the concept that arcane spellcasters can do a lot of damage, but can't take it.
rbrt_Spade 08-09-05, 03:14 PM	ok, the best adice from a dm- is to talk to him/her.-explain your problem. i agree-spells are flashy and pack a punk-that does not make you a powergamer.-i see a lot of these threads-my dm did this my dm did that-its up to you--talk to your dm or the leave the group
penguin_16 08-09-05, 03:16 PM	I dunno what to do, perhaps ram something large up his behind and run? Something like that :P
Aluroon 08-09-05, 03:24 PM	I quite understand your problem, for I have played with dm's that are much the same way. Hell for that matter I've played with players who are the same way, arguing against me and calling me a power-gamer for playing a high level wizard. The problem isn't in the players. Hell it may not even be in the dm. The problem is that at high levels the wizards of the coast spell system breaks down. At level 9 a wizard is the power in the party, and by level 13 he is the definitive damage dealer. Part of the reason for this is that at low levels wizards are so weak, most of there power is at the high levels. But enough of that rant. Frankly you need to find another dm; the way in which he has gimped you is ludicrous. The other option you have is trying to explain to him that while you can dish out upwards of 40d6 damage a round a few times a day you cannot take half of that damage. Try suggesting that he include enemies with spellcasting abilities that can counteract yours, or suggest he toughen of the campaign in a reasonable manner. You all could jump into the various planar wars or engage in more epic campaigns. It’s the advice I can offer, sorry if it's a little thin. Aluroon
Archtyrant Terevoth 08-09-05, 04:05 PM	Spellcasters at high levels tend to be really broken, and definitely in need of house rules. Many DMs take this overboard and create all kinds of weird stuff like this dead magic thing that you're talking about, as opposed to creating sound mechanical nerfs to put casters back into balance. It ends up of course just outright hosing casters and making them awful. I'd say talk to your DM and work out some acceptable nerfs so that he feels your character is balanced. That way he won't need to create custom magic immune creatures and dead magic stuff.
Welcome 08-09-05, 04:16 PM	So basically, you're walking in one big dead magic field ? Retire your character, and play a chain tripper (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=163005). Load your pockets with that mysterious magic-killing substance. Then cackle maniacally as you slow combat to a screeching halt by getting AoOs all the time and tripping everything in sight. Without magic, nothing will be able to come close to you. Then ask him if your simple blaster mage was really that bad.
eudas 08-09-05, 04:35 PM	i was just gonna say "so find another DM", but i kinda like Welcome's suggestion, too. eudas
Jaime_Wolf 08-09-05, 04:43 PM	Talk to the DM and explain that it's not worthwhile for you to play ANY spellcaster anymore. It's pretty darn hard to powergame as a straight spellcaster, unless you're looking for some weird combinations of spells that provide some ludicrous benefits or are creating ridiculous epic spells (which isn't hard at all to do under the normal rules). Explain to him that you can't take pretty much any damage without dieing right away. If neccesary, demonstrate, run a quick mock combat in order to prove that you can't take nearly the kind of damage the other characters can. The main problem I have with spellcasters isn't actually the damage, in my mind fighters, barbarians, and such are made for taking a lot of damage and dishing out moderate damage. Spellcasters do a lot of damage and can take almost none, but the way their utility spells make skills WORTHLESS. You want an extremely complex lock open, well you could try your best to get every bonus possible to open lock, or you could cast a SECOND level spell to automaticall open the door (knock). This holds true for almost anything, why put ranks in jump when spellcasters can make you fly, why put ranks in sleight of hand to pick pockets when spellcasters can use telekineses. This ability of casters to provide automatic or near automatic successes in nearly ANY skill is what I care about.
Tevish Szat 08-09-05, 05:05 PM	I see both sides of this problem,m as player and DM As a player, in my most recent session, i played a mage and did more damage with my longsword than with my spells. of course, that was because i only got a chance to shoot one ray for frost-esque spell (against which the giant frog saved) before the frog got into melee with me... and got lucky enough to land three hits beofre the rogue sneak attacked it to death. that wasn;t so bad... but i've had times where anti-magical pesecution has gone ot the extreme where hte sizard IS better off using a longsword than a magic missile. As a DM, i have never nerfed magic, save once, when i was stupid enough give a magical item that pumped fire spells to insane heights. while ultimatly a few fire resistant enemies and some good tight spaces (where fireball would have resulted in massive friendly fire) dealt with it, i was quite tempted at times to drench mage and troublesome item in Flux Slime. Eventually, the item became part of a ritual that resulted in the doom of the BBEG. it was consumed in the process.
Mirikon 08-09-05, 05:10 PM	We were playing a fairly standard campaign with a friend who was normally a player DMing. I played a blaster mage who could deal out a lot of damage, but couldn't take any for $%*@. The DM didn't seem to understand the frail part because he began to second guess every single thing I did. Now this is a very high level campaign so explaining each move can take up to 10 minutes! Its hardly economical to continue doing this. Now he chants at me about being a powerplayer and hes gotten most of the other players to do this too... wtf? And our world just got blown up so we teleported to another where pretty much everything is spell immune... its just dumb. He okays the most ridiculous prestige classes the martial characters make up then dosen't let me take Prestiges from pre-approved wizard made supplements. My spell list is practically stripped to things that effect spell immune creatures. THis is because theres an extremely common substance in this new world that exudes DEAD MAGIC. Its not spell resistance, its not even immunity, its frickin dead magic that cant be distrupted by mordenkainen's disjunction or anything. And every punk level 2 warrior has it. I've bassically taken to using telekineses to throw heavy objects at them, thats what I've been reduced to. All this because the DM dosen't understand the concept that arcane spellcasters can do a lot of damage, but can't take it. Get a better group.
Archtyrant Terevoth 08-09-05, 08:23 PM	So basically, you're walking in one big dead magic field ? Retire your character, and play a chain tripper (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=163005). Load your pockets with that mysterious magic-killing substance. Then cackle maniacally as you slow combat to a screeching halt by getting AoOs all the time and tripping everything in sight. Without magic, nothing will be able to come close to you. Then ask him if your simple blaster mage was really that bad. Don't do this... just don't. The answer to "the DM thinks I'm too powerful" is never to build an even more powerful character and prove without a doubt that you're a munchkin. That's the worst thing that you can do. Taking it personally and trying to enter into an ego contest can only end poorly.
Shaken, not Stunned 08-09-05, 08:24 PM	How many sessions have you been in this world. So help me, if you say anything less than 2.... If this goes on for 3 games, that is honestly completely acceptable. Particularly in a mid to high role-play game. In a pure chainsaw game, this is not acceptable for more than half a session, and I restrict my mage-bashing to a maximum of one encounter per session, and one such encounter for every month. Long and the short of it is, get used to it, your a mage. You get to say "Make a DC 34 will save. Make another. Did you fail either of them? No? You die. Oh, yes.... You still die." Sometimes you get negated. This is part of the balance.
WizardlyFriend 08-09-05, 08:39 PM	if i hear this right it basically makes said person immune ot magic? that's great, that means that you equipped with "magic" items can whip anyone because guess what their magic items don't work on them :P tenser's transformation, plus as many magic items as you can wear, and some spells adn you should be able to kill any warrior who dares challenge you. don't bother with flaming weapons and ****, they deal "them" magic damage. however, a brillaitn energy weapon still gets by their armor. if it instead grants a spell resistance type ability then become a dweomerkeeper, dont abuse their one ability, but instead use it to get by spell resistance. in either case this thing seams to negate magic items and have no save so as long as you get magic items that affect you, you are fine. also, it can't protect them from illusions (well, some).
Nobuddy 08-10-05, 08:56 PM	See, I've played a high-level Fighter and been blamed for power gaming, just because the DM was used to 2nd edition or something stupid like that... But yes it's up to you... you have to talk to the DM and say look over my character if you want to take the time and then if you still think I'm power gaming then at least you'll have a better understanding that yes I'm just really, really up there in the lvls thats what I did and it worked out okay. I mean once he sat down and read through the PHB and my sheet I was off the hook. The only thing thats different is that you have spells... this is just funny because tell him your a mortar weapon just an artillry peace thats all. Because up close you'll be dead in nothing flat... still not a believer? Well set-up a side mission with you and the DM in question and throw the character into melee and he'll get it by then. I hope it works out for you both in the end.
The Game 08-11-05, 05:44 AM	As a fellow wizard player, I feel your pain. In evey D&D campaign our gaming groups DM players, everyone always goes fighters, bards, rogues, barbarians ect ect, anything but a Wizard or Sorc, and as a result I have to fill that gap, and when we get to higher levels and I can start killing things with the point of a finger, what happens? The Power Gamer eggs start getting hurled at me from ignorant other players. Personally I think your DM should be drowned, or thrown into the pit of water where he/she can drown and sink to a watery grave. But that wont get you very far. So, try and sit the DM down in private so it is just a one on one discussion, then go throughthe pro's of being a wizard, then go through the con's: clearly labeling and explaining important factors about the flaws of a wizard such as the very poor hit dice, the low fort and reflex saves, the kick in the knickers losing your familiar can be, the vulnerability of your spell book in proportion to your power and anything else you feel is important when high lighting the short comings of the ones with pointy hats. If that doesnt work then drown him/her. Or get a better group.
DarknessEternal 08-11-05, 11:05 AM	The answer is simple. Clearly this DM, and the rest of the group, feel better with warrior-type characters. Ask him if you can make a new guy who is such a character. There is no problem unless he says no. At that point, feel free to do whatever irrational thing will make you feel better. PS warrior-type character != Fighter. There are hundreds of options in D&D that would clearly be a warrior who don't really come near "I stand next to it. I hit it."
Ut-Napishtim 08-11-05, 03:43 PM	It seems fairly common for a lot of DM's to be afraid of magic at the higher levels. Personally I don't think it's "broken," just that a lot of DM's don't enforce things like spell component costs and such. That's a debate for a different thread though. A while back I was in this game where the DM selected all Wizards' spells for them. Fortunately I wasn't playing a caster in that one, but I felt sorry for them. I would say, like others, talk to him about your concerns. If he is insistent on running a more martial sort of game and you still want to play, the Tenser's Transformation idea is pretty good IMHO. You might want to pick up a nice greatsword or something for when you do that, maybe with a Shrink Item enchantment to deal with the weight, and focus on AC/protection spells. Yeah that will pretty much make you a Fighter, but you'll still have your utility spells for kicks. :twocents:
makeshiftwings 08-11-05, 04:10 PM	I think it's unfortunately obvious that your DM doesn't understand high level spells at all. Clearly he's trying to nerf you, but if he had more rules knowledge he would be doing things like throwing enemy mages at you with insane spell combos, but instead he's thinking "Uh... I don't understand magic, so I'll just turn all magic off everywhere, so no one can do anything but attack with normal weapons. Yeah, I understand attacking with weapons." I think that unfortunately, this DM is doomed until he gets a better grasp on the rules. It doesn't matter what you play; sooner or later someone else will figure something out, and the DM will ban sneak attacks, wands, paladins, evasion, horses, monks, tripping, sundering, etc... I might be assuming too much but your DM sounds like the type whose entire strategy for every encounter is "He hits you with his really big attack bonus, and you have to hit him with his really big AC and hit points."
Lord Schpungus 08-11-05, 04:46 PM	Magic is too powerful at high levels. I got rid of 6-9th level spells to compensate. So far it seems worthwhile. I can feel your DM's worries, but walking around in an anti-magic field is not the solution. He should be sending 10 or 12 waves of large numbers of enemies after you per day. You'll quickly learn not to nova.
DarknessEternal 08-11-05, 05:45 PM	I got rid of 6-9th level spells to compensate. So then what happens to casters over level 10 then?
Ze_Mighty_Vegetable 08-11-05, 08:47 PM	Keep on the throwing really big things path. Become a master of the unseen hand. Take leadership. Get yourself the largest, Überest Jotenbruded half-giant hulking hurler/war hulk you can find (you stated the DM let the warriors have all the fun, so he shouldn't have too much problem with good'ol Bob the Hulk.). Now, a tipical fight: Enlarged Bull's strenghted Bob overbundened heave an enlarged piece of wall (the whole east wall of the city), while you power push him (and the rock) with your TK. Bye, bye, foe.
Lord Schpungus 08-11-05, 10:09 PM	So then what happens to casters over level 10 then? I'm actually gestalting NPC classes, so spell levels are gained at: 2: 4th 3: 8th 4: 12th 5: 16th I find that my spellcasters are wary of using magic to solve everything right now, although thay may just be low numbers of slots. The thing to note is that all NPCs use the NPC classes, so there's no high level spells anywhere, they're not excluded solely from PC hands.
IceFractal 08-11-05, 11:13 PM	Personally, I'd just retire your spellcaster, save him for a different game. Explain that you'd like to replace your character because the DM has made him useless. Then if he won't let you bring in a different character at the same level it's time to think about leaving the group. Now as for this new character, it could just be a typical type of character - or if you're feeling vengeful it could be a Hulking Hurler/Chain Tripper. Furthermore, definitely get some of this magic stuff that stops magic. No more need to worry about your poor Will save. If you really, really, want to make people suffer, play a maxed-out Frenzied Berserker. After you kill the entire rest of the party while frenzying, you can end that game and start a new one where casters are not insanely nerfed. But don't do this unless you're feeling very vengeful.
Ut-Napishtim 08-11-05, 11:15 PM	Magic is too powerful at high levels. I got rid of 6-9th level spells to compensate. So far it seems worthwhile. Wow dude, that seems pretty harsh. There's still a lot of cool spells from 1-5, but I think I'd just opt for a Fighter under those circumstances. A Rogue would be good too, with pumped UMD he could pretty much do anything a Wizard could at the higher levels off a wand or scroll without having to worry about mishaps all that much - if at all. Do you actually have a lot of folks looking to play casters after they find out about this?
Corinthians 08-12-05, 02:34 PM	Magic is too powerful at high levels. I got rid of 6-9th level spells to compensate. So far it seems worthwhile. you must have some real rubes playing in your game if they're letting you get away with this.
DragonDeadite 08-12-05, 03:27 PM	....rrriiigght... see, I'm the other way around. I actualy pamper the magic users because most of my campaigns are magic-user based. I agree that it sounds like this DM doesn't know how to handle magic and is thus nerfing this guy. He REALLY needs to start reading up how magic works. If you really want to **** off this guy go and find a copy of..... umm... dangit!! It's a book that Monte Cook put out with a bunch of NASTY friggin feats and spells for magic-users. Cool cool book, just got it myself. Start using some stuff in there and see how he likes it. :cool: I know how the power gaming aspect of it though. IF you build a mage right then they can be very dangerous... under the right cercumstances. My suggestion to you: Multi-class. Start suddenly taking levels of Fighter and then become a Spell-sword from the Complete Warrior. Hey, it's a warrior PrC! He shouldn't have a problem with it! Then you can start burning your spells to become more and more powerful with your attacks. As to the guy that took out the spell levels... DUDE!! That's RETARDED!!! Okay... I was first to say it since no one else had the guts. You take away the soul purpose for someone being a mage. You make people need to multi-class rather than go straight up and that just isn't cool. As if being a low level mage isn't hard enough, you take away the entire POINT of being a wizard, and that's the level 9 spells. Yes, high level mages are butt-kickers. But you know what? Every class at high level can kick butt!! That's why they have DC 20+ creatures in the monster manuals!!! If the characters are too strong, then throw something harder at them! A wizard that can cast level 5 spells at level 16 is a whimp! He's got no point in being there so no one will play him. Okay, I'm done. :D Just don't like people messing with my wizards! BTW: HAIL THE WAR MAGE!!
Lord Schpungus 08-12-05, 03:42 PM	Wow dude, that seems pretty harsh. There's still a lot of cool spells from 1-5, but I think I'd just opt for a Fighter under those circumstances. A Rogue would be good too, with pumped UMD he could pretty much do anything a Wizard could at the higher levels off a wand or scroll without having to worry about mishaps all that much - if at all. Do you actually have a lot of folks looking to play casters after they find out about this? you must have some real rubes playing in your game if they're letting you get away with this. I'm actually gestalting NPC classes, so spell levels are gained at: 2: 4th 3: 8th 4: 12th 5: 16th Everyone has NPC classes, not just spellcasters. And we're trying it for this campaign because I thought it would be interesting, and also because we've had 3 or 4 campaigns in a row where we gained a level (or two) every session, with no plot to speak of, and one big monster battle per session. It had gotten to be an arena, and I wanted to get into characters again. I'm keeping them at low levels (comparatively), so things are pretty normal so far. I suggest you check out this thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=449696) for more information on gestalting NPC classes. EDIT: Phrennzy, as people have ignored, there are no PC classes, only an expanded list of NPC classes. For my group, any way, I feel it's working to help remove 'numbers-only' characters.
Phrennzy 08-12-05, 03:43 PM	So then what happens to casters over level 10 then? They switch to Barbarian class to vent.
DragonDeadite 08-12-05, 04:35 PM	Phrennzy, as people have ignored, there are no PC classes, only an expanded list of NPC classes. For my group, any way, I feel it's working to help remove 'numbers-only' characters. ........................................ .................that's just too mind boggling to even comment on. Okay, i lied... so do they eventualy get to PrC into a PC class???? Nevermind... I just don't want to know... my stomach hurts from reading this, seriously man. Just... pain...
Ut-Napishtim 08-12-05, 10:03 PM	I think a more low-powered NPC classes only campaign could be fun to try as long as there weren't NPC's running around with PC classes. The Adept has a decent spell list that combines some nice divine and arcane spells. Providing it was the only available spellcaster I wouldn't mind trying it out, perhaps gestalted with Expert for the skill points, or Aristocrat for the money.
Kalrin 08-13-05, 12:34 AM	If you really, really, want to make people suffer, play a maxed-out Frenzied Berserker. After you kill the entire rest of the party while frenzying, you can end that game and start a new one where casters are not insanely nerfed. But don't do this unless you're feeling very vengeful. Actually, there are ways to survive a Frenzied Bezerker... They involve High AC and a certain [Tactical] Feat to negate the crazy Power Attack damage. Said character actually isn't bad at dishing out damage either, his main focus is just AC. Which some DM still ban, but hey...
RogerWilco 08-13-05, 07:56 AM	Yeah high level spells are powerful, but even a high level wizard has so many weak spots, that it doesn't mean high level wizards are powerful. - Needs a spellbook - only one good save - low hitpoints - familiar - low AC - non-existent melee skills - MOST IMPORTANT: limited number of spell slots: with 4 encounters/day, they'll run out of spells. If your DM isn't using that, he needs to wise up, or you're better of playing an other character. One way to drive the point home is to stop using your spells for a while. Don't charge into combat either, just try to stay alive. If they complain say something to the effect of: "with my BAB I wouldn't have hit it anyway, it was probably immune to magic, and it would have killed me with one hit, so I thought it best to stay out of this one" Maybe even make an Int check to determine your actions: DM:"O.k. mage, your turn", Mage:"hmmm, I roll an Int check, nope, not doing anything this round" Just become a complete piece of balast to the party, until they start begging you to use your magic. Then ask them what spells, counter every spell they name with an example of when the DM nerfed it. Then they might understand your point.
The Game 08-13-05, 10:22 AM	I am still amazed by the amount of people who complain and moan about how powerful 9th level spells are. Of course 9th level spells are powerful!!! Thats why they are 9th level!!! Its like going to Scottland then coming back and complaining about the rain. A wizard has to be lvl 17 minimum before he/she can even have access to them, and even then they are probably only able to cast a single one per day until they gain yet more levels. That's if the player has resisted the temptation to multiclass into something funky and cool that only levels up their spell casting level half of what straight wizard did, in return for a few groovy class abilities. A wizard who can surive up until that point deserves the amount of power they receive, its part of what being a wizard is about. Lower levels your just a little snot who dies when your spat at, at mid levels you start throwing your weight around but still cant take jack in return, and at higher levels: all that patients through I-hope-they-dont-spit-at-me armor, abysmal hit dice, hiding in the back ranks of the party, losing xp creating magic items for others, poor physical saves, spending all your money on componets and spell research, losing bucket loads of xp if your fragile familiar carcks it and hunching over your spell book while refering to it as "My Precious...", has paid off as you hit the big S.A.K league of Serious Ass Kickers. It makes sense that the weakest class at the start of the game is the most powerful at the end. Fighters should be somewhat affraid at the thought of going up against a powerful wizard who knows their coming. Good things come to those who wait, and the player of a wizard is no exception.
Bonzai 08-13-05, 11:29 AM	My first response to these situations is to make sure that the DM is enforcing these rules equally. If every npc has a personal anti magic field, then make sure that it effects all of the Melee'ers weapons and gear as well. So when the barbarian with his flame burst axe and boots of haste runs up to smack the enemey, it poofs out and he is moving normally and dealing damage with only a master work item. The Paladin tries to turn some undead...nope sorry, they all have the no magic mojo, and therefore his divine magic is blocked. Odds are people may complain... What fun is getting a +5 Vorpal great sword, when in practice it is just a master work great sword? It's no different from how your spells are gimped... feel free to point that out. 2nd, option is to get creative. Build golems, or gate in some outsider and keep it under your control, ect. Errect some temporary barriers, and on top of them summon a wall of stone or some such, then dispell the barriers (or let the dead magic creature dispell it by touching them. Squish. 3rd option, focus on utility only. You could focus on scrying, buffing, and transporting everyone, and avoid actual fighting. 4th option. Do as the other guy said, and just buff yourself up to high heaven each combat. Do nothing else but stay alive. People may complain, but say, "What you want me to do? Spit at it? It would be more effective than a lightning bolt or fireball, I know! I will pass wind in their general direction!". 5th option. Inform the party that you don't like this place, and want to go someplace better. Invite anyone who wants to to join you, and then teleport off that rock to some nice plane, and then find a new home world.
Lord Schpungus 08-13-05, 11:48 PM	........................................ .................that's just too mind boggling to even comment on. Okay, i lied... so do they eventualy get to PrC into a PC class???? Nevermind... I just don't want to know... my stomach hurts from reading this, seriously man. Just... pain... No, no PC base classes. Ever. For anyone (NPCs included). You can PrC normally, however.