Post/Author/DateTime	Post
forsaken1111 06-12-07, 11:00 PM	...and I don't understand why. Let me start out by saying I really like the warlock for 1. Great descriptive text and art. Makes it that much more fun to play and roleplay. 2. I enjoy classes who's abilities are not limited per day. (Incarnates, soulknives, dragonfire adepts, even psions to a lesser extent.) So I'd really like to play the warlock in my current campaign, but my DM said no. When I politely asked him why, he claimed it was broken. He feels that the lack of any limit on the eldritch blast makes the entire class too powerful in non-combat situations. He thinks people will use the blast for things it was not intended for, such as tunneling/digging around terrain and dungeon features. He may have other reasons, but the only one he has given me is the unlimited nature of the invocations and blast. Is there a way to make him see that this isn't as unbalancing as he thinks, or is it a lost cause?
DyloniusFunk 06-12-07, 11:06 PM	Sometimes all the logic in the world won't change someones mind once they've made it uop. Just look at all the threads and posts about psionics that keep popping up. All you can do is show him the data and if he is dead set against it then that's that./ And to be honest the Warlock can be a bit annoying if he takes the shatter invocation. A guy in my last Eberron game had that and he was constantly trying to shatter everything.
windscar18 06-12-07, 11:10 PM	Simple. Reserve...feats... Besides, doesn't he completely realize that 9d6 doesn't even match the damage of a regular attack? Do the math. 2d6 is 7 damage reguarly, so 9d6 does 31.5 damage on average. Eldritch blast even does half damage against objects unless you use Hammer Blast.
forsaken1111 06-12-07, 11:13 PM	Simple. Reserve...feats... Besides, doesn't he completely realize that 9d6 doesn't even match the damage of a regular attack? Do the math. 2d6 is 7 damage reguarly, so 9d6 does 31.5 damage on average. Eldritch blast even does half damage against objects unless you use Hammer Blast. He claims that the unlimited nature of the blast lets the warlock outperform an arcane caster if the party hits 3 or more encounters in one day. :confused: I think he's just scared by the word unlimited... although I have to admit "Baleful polymorph" at will is scary.
Everdreaming 06-12-07, 11:14 PM	I would point out that even though you have unlimited eldritch blasts, you can only fire 1/round. Also, barring feats, 12 invocations ever. Compare to above 40 spells if you are a wizard. Thus, even though you can use the invocations whenever you want, you dont have that many. Warlocks are built for endurance, not power output. Just a few points I think should be mentioned. And about the baleful polymorph (I dont have my book with me btw) I believe you can first get that at 16th level, and there will be many more dangerous things out there by that time than baleful polymorph.
forsaken1111 06-12-07, 11:16 PM	Is there anywhere on these forums that has made a 'prestige warlock' compressed to a 10 or 15 level prestige class? Perhaps he would have less trouble with that.
Archangel62 06-12-07, 11:24 PM	Sometimes all the logic in the world won't change someones mind once they've made it uop. Just look at all the threads and posts about psionics that keep popping up. All you can do is show him the data and if he is dead set against it then that's that./ And to be honest the Warlock can be a bit annoying if he takes the shatter invocation. A guy in my last Eberron game had that and he was constantly trying to shatter everything. Have had that in my Eberron games as well, actually I don't mind as it can get rather amusing, one of the more repeated quotes from our table was "I shatter his underwear."
Arkeas 06-12-07, 11:30 PM	In the DM's defense, it is somewhat irritating to have a Warlock in the party. He completely outshines the rogue at lower levels. The warlock does the same damage as sneak attack, but with a ranged touch attack that does not require flanking, the opponent being flat-footed, and has no limit of 30ft. This is countered by the point of higher leveled warlocks only getting one attack. This is countered by the warlock being able to apply blast shapes and effects to his blast at the same time, thus hitting multiple targets. Then the traps come into play. I have had every door in a dungeon blasted by a warlock shattering their hinges. The traps that were there were triggered without any effect, time waste, or resource drain on the party's side, while they still collected the experience. The rogue, meanwhile, was completely useless. I think that warlocks are somewhat unbalanced. Whether or not it is enough so to be disallowed is questionable, but I currently prefer our game without one.
KillerVole 06-12-07, 11:32 PM	Does the DM own the book? I disallow classes from books I do not own, unless the player lets me borrow it for a day or two to learn the rules. I know how frustrating this can be, though. I DM as part of a school club, which decided early on to disallow psionics. I don't feel right hitting the PCs with them, since they don't have access to the book. See if he'll let you run one, with the understanding that you'll change characters if he doesn't like how the warlock works in play. Ask him to let you prove, in play, that the class isn't broken. One last thought: is the DM new? Newer DMs often like sticking close to core, while they work out the rules. It's best to just let them do so; they'll be ready for warlocks soon enough. Sorry for the long winded reply, your post just reminds me of a player in a group I'm in who wanted to play a warlock.
skywyze 06-12-07, 11:37 PM	Dylonius said it best, but I'd take it even further: Logic does not apply to restrictive DMs. Ideally, every book, magazine and class/feat/spell published on the web would all be available. My reason for this is because even just using the PHB, there're loopholes giving characters infinite HD, infinite spells per day, etc. The DM can never, ever, ever make it impossible to make munchkinny characters, even if he didn't allow the core books, people would eventually find loopholes. The alternative is that a mere human could produce something that is completely and utterly devoid of any flaws, which could never happen in our reality. All the DM can do is ask the players to act maturely, and then he won't have to worry about any of that. There's no such thing as a broken class, only broken players. As for my experience with the warlock, our fighters tend to outdamage him, and they too can do what they do all day long.
Zaver 06-12-07, 11:44 PM	It might not be a desirable option, but you could try to compromise with the DM. First, if he hasn't even seen one played point out that he's wrong to decide something is over powered before play testing, this will probably fail. If it does just explain that you really liked the flavor of the class and work out a variation that removes what he doesn't like. For example put a limit on how many times you can use eldritch blast. The DMG says that an appropriate CR should take up 25% of the parties resources so figure out a number that will let you use it according to that. If he thinks you'll use it for ways it wasn't intended, which is probably the dumbest thing I've heard today, work out a blast that only effects some things. Hopefully it will get to a point where he will see that the class shouldn't have restrictions placed on it and you can play it to it's fullest.
windscar18 06-12-07, 11:48 PM	In the DM's defense, it is somewhat irritating to have a Warlock in the party. He completely outshines the rogue at lower levels. The warlock does the same damage as sneak attack, but with a ranged touch attack that does not require flanking, the opponent being flat-footed, and has no limit of 30ft. This is countered by the point of higher leveled warlocks only getting one attack. This is countered by the warlock being able to apply blast shapes and effects to his blast at the same time, thus hitting multiple targets. Then the traps come into play. I have had every door in a dungeon blasted by a warlock shattering their hinges. The traps that were there were triggered without any effect, time waste, or resource drain on the party's side, while they still collected the experience. The rogue, meanwhile, was completely useless. I think that warlocks are somewhat unbalanced. Whether or not it is enough so to be disallowed is questionable, but I currently prefer our game without one. Meh, the rogue gets to add his damage and his strength modifier (albeit, not a high modifier) to each of his sneak attacks in addition to each of the attacks and, ideally and usually, can make more attacks per round than the warlock, thus resulting in higher, if more restricted, damage output. Plus, the rogue gets higher skill points. And, if the Eldritch Blast is the case of attacking doors down, why not just disable it? Or smash it with an axe? Not very hard.
forsaken1111 06-13-07, 12:16 AM	Seems like the shatter invocation causes a lot of trouble. Should that be limited to like 2 uses per hour, or maybe 5 per day?
Everdreaming 06-13-07, 12:20 AM	Seems like the shatter invocation causes a lot of trouble. Should that be limited to like 2 uses per hour, or maybe 5 per day? I dont think so, for a couple of reasons. 1, you dont have to take the invocation, and have a limited number of invocations you can take. 2, It is only troublesome if you use it for trouble. You dont need to restrict it if you dont want to take it, or dont want to use it for silly stuff. Just my :twocents:
skywyze 06-13-07, 12:21 AM	Seems to me that there's nothing an invocation can do that a good hit with an axe can't do just as well. Including shattering (sundering) doors and enemies.
forsaken1111 06-13-07, 12:50 AM	Seems to me that there's nothing an invocation can do that a good hit with an axe can't do just as well. Including shattering (sundering) doors and enemies. Except maybe doing it from across the room...
pmurray@bigpond.com 06-13-07, 01:28 AM	I would point out that even though you have unlimited eldritch blasts, you can only fire 1/round. Doesn't the warlock get to fire two when their BAB reaches 6?
forsaken1111 06-13-07, 01:28 AM	Doesn't the warlock get to fire two when their BAB reaches 6? Nope. Its a standard action to use eldritch blast. Its not a weapon, its treated as a spell-like ability.
Salla 06-13-07, 01:34 AM	Doesn't the warlock get to fire two when their BAB reaches 6? Nope (as forsaken says). To mention as well, Rapid Shot also does not work with Eldritch Blast. The only way to fire off two Eldritch Blasts (I'm aware of) is with the Quicken Spell-Like Ability feat.
pmurray@bigpond.com 06-13-07, 01:36 AM	Nope. Its a standard action to use eldritch blast. Its not a weapon, its treated as a spell-like ability. Damn, I shall have to deliver the bad news to our warlock. He's playing a gestalt warlock/rogue and when flanking hands out 1d6 per level from invocation+sneak attack. With multiple attacks per round, it gets a trifle much. With the 1 per round limit, .... hmm. In some situations, he'd be better off getting in multiple attacks with a reach weapon, or maybe using a missile weapon. Do point blank and precise shot apply to eldrich blast?
forsaken1111 06-13-07, 01:38 AM	Damn, I shall have to deliver the bad news to our warlock. He's playing a gestalt warlock/rogue and when flanking hands out 1d6 per level from invocation+sneak attack. With multiple attacks per round, it gets a trifle much. With the 1 per round limit, .... hmm. In some situations, he'd be better off getting in multiple attacks with a reach weapon, or maybe using a missile weapon. Do point blank and precise shot apply to eldrich blast? Yes point blank shot and precise shot apply, as would Weapon Focus (Ranged Spell) or whatever its called. Edit: <snip!> I was wrong. Also.. if he's flanking wouldn't using the blast cause an attack of opportunity? Its a spell-like ability and you can't flank unless you're threatening a square. Ranged weapons do not threaten, so he must be in melee unless he has one of the VERY FEW classes which allow ranged weapons to threaten and flank.
Salla 06-13-07, 01:40 AM	Damn, I shall have to deliver the bad news to our warlock. He's playing a gestalt warlock/rogue and when flanking hands out 1d6 per level from invocation+sneak attack. With multiple attacks per round, it gets a trifle much. With the 1 per round limit, .... hmm. In some situations, he'd be better off getting in multiple attacks with a reach weapon, or maybe using a missile weapon. Do point blank and precise shot apply to eldrich blast? Unless he's using Hideous Blow (every other round max), he can't be using the Eldritch Blast from a flanking position to get sneak attack. Flanking is ONLY with melee attacks. Additionally, he's either suffering Attacks of Opportunity or having to cast defensively to avoid those Attacks of Opportunity. Point Blank and Precise Shot(s) do work with the Eldritch Blast.
pmurray@bigpond.com 06-13-07, 01:49 AM	My understanding is that ranged attacks do not threaten, but they can take advantage of flanking. That is, the ranged attacker gets flanking from a threatening melee combatant, but not the other way around. And (discounting that, as it happens, the warlock only gets one eldrich blast per round) why do you only get sneak attack damage once per round?
mkill 06-13-07, 01:50 AM	In the DM's defense, it is somewhat irritating to have a Warlock in the party. He completely outshines the rogue at lower levels. The warlock does the same damage as sneak attack, but with a ranged touch attack that does not require flanking, the opponent being flat-footed, and has no limit of 30ft. This is countered by the point of higher leveled warlocks only getting one attack. This is countered by the warlock being able to apply blast shapes and effects to his blast at the same time, thus hitting multiple targets. Then the traps come into play. I have had every door in a dungeon blasted by a warlock shattering their hinges. The traps that were there were triggered without any effect, time waste, or resource drain on the party's side, while they still collected the experience. The rogue, meanwhile, was completely useless. I think that warlocks are somewhat unbalanced. Whether or not it is enough so to be disallowed is questionable, but I currently prefer our game without one. So every trap was in doors, and none in the floor, the ceiling, the walls? Don't blame the warlock, blame boring dungeon design. A rogue with UMD and a wand of Shatter could have done the same. Also, rogues do 1d6 more damage because they still get the base weapon damage of their short sword / rapier / short bow / sap. And all in all, a rogue that can't make himself useful to the party except for sneak attacking and disabling traps is not using the full potential of his class. The problem is not a warlock, the problem is lack of creativity and a "but I wanted to do that" attitude on the side of the rogue player. Instead, rogue and warlock should have just teamed up for greater effect.
Salla 06-13-07, 01:54 AM	My understanding is that ranged attacks do not threaten, but they can take advantage of flanking. That is, the ranged attacker gets flanking from a threatening melee combatant, but not the other way around. From d20SRD.org, on Flanking: [b]When making a melee attack[b], you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by a character or creature friendly to you on the opponent’s opposite border or opposite corner. Unless you have a weird Prestige Class, feat, or spell that lets you threaten with a ranged attack, the Eldritch Blast cannot take advantage of flanking and thus, cannot deliver a sneak attack. Check the Rules of the Game archive. And (discounting that, as it happens, the warlock only gets one eldrich blast per round) why do you only get sneak attack damage once per round? You get sneak attack on every attack that qualifies. If a rogue with two attacks is successfully flanking with someone else, both attacks will get Sneak Attack damage.
forsaken1111 06-13-07, 01:58 AM	My mistake, I was thinking of a different rogue ability. Yes, sneak attack damage applies to every attack which qualifies. That said, no a ranged attacker may not be considered flanking at any time unless they have a class which says they can. To be flanking, you MUST be threatening his square and ranged weapons do not threaten normally. Now if the rogue is hidden, the target may be denied his dex bonus... which would allow sneak attacks.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 06-13-07, 02:30 AM	In the DM's defense, it is somewhat irritating to have a Warlock in the party. He completely outshines the rogue at lower levels. To point out the odviouse here...technically the druid, wizard, sorcerer, and cleric out shine the rogue at all levels. But that really isn't the point. I actually find the warlock and the rogue to be on about the same power level. The warlock does the same damage as sneak attack, but with a ranged touch attack that does not require flanking, the opponent being flat-footed, and has no limit of 30ft. This is countered by the point of higher leveled warlocks only getting one attack. This is countered by the warlock being able to apply blast shapes and effects to his blast at the same time, thus hitting multiple targets. Yes and no. Flanking isn't deficult for rogue, tumble being a class skill. And if said rogue took Two weapon fighting at first level, and improved two weapon finding at 9th level then they would be getting sneak attack X4 per round, assuming they hit. Which again isn't too difficult with a finnesseable weapon. And if that weapon is something like the spiked chain then they can even do it from ten feet out. Then the traps come into play. I have had every door in a dungeon blasted by a warlock shattering their hinges. The traps that were there were triggered without any effect, time waste, or resource drain on the party's side, while they still collected the experience. The rogue, meanwhile, was completely useless. Again the rogue is going to shine here as well. Firstly with synergies, and max ranks the rogue auto be able to find/disarm the traps regardless. Further the rogue does it a whole lot quieter then the warlock blasting the door away. Its about the same as Thug using a long spear, and improved sunder. I think that warlocks are somewhat unbalanced. Whether or not it is enough so to be disallowed is questionable, but I currently prefer our game without one. I find them to be a bit under powered myself. Their kinda like the warmage, in that all they really can do is blast. heck my current DM doesn't make us keep track of the arrows we fire. In a sense I have unlimited d8's at a range of 100ft, as we never run out of ammo. Strangely I don't think anyone has bothered to abuse that yet... Is he applying sneak attack damage to each blast? You only get sneak attack once in a round, no matter how many attacks you make. Not necessarily. The rogue gets sneak attack on every attack that qualifies for it. So it a rogue is flanking, and has multiple attacks a round it gets multiple sneak attacks. Same goes if the rogue is attacking in a surprise round, or if the target is stunned, or grappling someone other then the rogue. Usually when I play rogues I mix in levels of wizard for improved invisibility. Another common thing is a level of monk for stunning fist, and flurry of blows. Also.. if he's flanking wouldn't using the blast cause an attack of opportunity? Its a spell-like ability and you can't flank unless you're threatening a square. Ranged weapons do not threaten, so he must be in melee unless he has one of the VERY FEW classes which allow ranged weapons to threaten and flank. There is an invocation i believe that allows you use your eldritch blast as a melee attack. I'm not sure if that would allow multiple attacks around. But it would take care of the AoO for firing while in melee, and allow the flanking bonuses. As for your DM, well if he won't listen, he won't listen. Honestly compared to spells invocations are fairly weak, even though you can use all day, and all night long. For what its worth I find the idea of a warlock shooting his way through a wall absurd as well. It be kinda like tunneling your way out of a basement by shooting at the wall with a colt .45. Even if you had unlimited bullets its still gonna take years. On that note have you looked at the Tome of Battle, Book of Nine swords yet? Everything in there is per encounter, and for the most part unlimited. But geared for the traditional sword and board. Just tell him you wanna try a martial artist that has disciplines. Like crouching tiger, hidden dragon.
forsaken1111 06-13-07, 02:40 AM	Yes I've seen (and played) the classes in ToB. The odd thing is that my DM has no problem at all with dragonfire adepts, which are essentially dragon-flavored warlocks... so I might just play one of those.
navar100 06-13-07, 03:01 AM	Yes point blank shot and precise shot apply, as would Weapon Focus (Ranged Spell) or whatever its called. Is he applying sneak attack damage to each blast? You only get sneak attack once in a round, no matter how many attacks you make. Also.. if he's flanking wouldn't using the blast cause an attack of opportunity? Its a spell-like ability and you can't flank unless you're threatening a square. Ranged weapons do not threaten, so he must be in melee unless he has one of the VERY FEW classes which allow ranged weapons to threaten and flank. Incorrect. A rogue indeed does deal sneak attack damage for each attack. The only requirements for a sneak attack is the rogue is flanking or his opponent is denied his DX bonus to AC. How often in a round he achieves that is irrelevant. Yes, a high level rogue with Greater Two Weapon Fighting attacking 6 times total deals sneak attack damage for each hit. However, the warlock can only use Eldritch Blast once per round. A warlock/rogue can only do sneak attack damage with the eldritch blast when the opponent loses his DX bonus to AC because you can't flank with an eldritch blast. If he has Hideous Blow, that gets the flanking sneak attack but still only once per round. If he has Eldritch Glaive from Dragon Magic, that allows multiple attacks hence multiple flanking sneak attack damage.
forsaken1111 06-13-07, 03:03 AM	Incorrect. A rogue indeed does deal sneak attack damage for each attack. The only requirements for a sneak attack is the rogue is flanking or his opponent is denied his DX bonus to AC. How often in a round he achieves that is irrelevant. Yes, a high level rogue with Greater Two Weapon Fighting attacking 6 times total deals sneak attack damage for each hit. However, the warlock can only use Eldritch Blast once per round. A warlock/rogue can only do sneak attack damage with the eldritch blast when the opponent loses his DX bonus to AC because you can't flank with an eldritch blast. If he has Hideous Blow, that gets the flanking sneak attack but still only once per round. If he has Eldritch Glaive from Dragon Magic, that allows multiple attacks hence multiple flanking sneak attack damage. Yeah, did you read the WHOLE THREAD? Specifically the part where I corrected myself and admitted that I had been confused? Thanks for correcting me after I admitted my error though. Way to read before posting.
navar100 06-13-07, 03:14 AM	Yeah, did you read the WHOLE THREAD? Specifically the part where I corrected myself and admitted that I had been confused? Thanks for correcting me after I admitted my error though. Way to read before posting. Yeah, I did see that later. Excuse me for not reading and choosing to respond in your One True Way of reading and responding to threads. A simple "Yeah, I got it.", with or without a :) or similar, would have sufficed. Even ignoring what I wrote since you already corrected yourself and just let my post exist for anyone else who cared to read it would have been fine. No need to be so rude and disrespectful to someone who did not treat you in kind that way.
Merestil Haye 06-13-07, 06:44 AM	Unless he's using Hideous Blow (every other round max), he can't be using the Eldritch Blast from a flanking position to get sneak attack.Why every other round? Hideous Blow allows the warlock to make a single melee attack with a weapon as part of its effect. It can be used once per round.
geekling 06-13-07, 07:16 AM	Is there a way to make him see that this isn't as unbalancing as he thinks, or is it a lost cause? Tell him you understand his concerns, even if you think he's drawing the wrong conclusions. But you fully understand that he does not want to risk his campaign with something he is unsure of. Then offer the suggestion that you DM a parallell campaign for a little while, or take over the DM seat for a few weeks while he gets a little summer break from DMing. And that you'd really appreciate it if he ran a warlock as a PC in it. After that campaign have ended, if he still considers the warlock to be unbalanced, that's fair enough. But if he's changed his mind, that perhaps he'll reconsider and let you play a warlock in his campaign.
Salla 06-13-07, 11:45 AM	Why every other round? Hideous Blow allows the warlock to make a single melee attack with a weapon as part of its effect. It can be used once per round. *doublechecks book* My bad. I've never taken it before (the last place I want my warlocks is melee!), and misread it that you used the invocation as a standard action one round, having it available for your first attack in the next.
Lykor 06-13-07, 12:22 PM	Warlocks are one of those classes that seems overpowered at first glance, but when you think about it don't seem to be that good in the end. At low levels they are good (due to the not getting hit + decent AC + respectable damage) but at high levels their damage does NOT scale very well. Compare their 9d6 to 20d6 from Polar Ray. Plus the blasts have save/SR, so you run into some severe problems with rogues (anything with evasion, really) and SR.
Optimized_Commoner 06-13-07, 01:43 PM	Honestly the Warlock looks pretty scary on paper, I get that reaction looking at it too. However considering it in detail, I think it works out to be reasonably balanced by D&D standards. Particularly by modern standards, with your melee characters having TOB and mages having reserve feats. On the other note, I hate the spell Shatter. It's badly phrased, incredibly ambiguous and the interpretations of what it can do vary from underpowered to vastly overpowered. Any class features which duplicate that spell an infinite number of times per day (okay 14,400 times per day) naturally is enough to make anyone edgy. Still, I've never actually had anyone play a warlock in my games and I haven't used one as an NPC yet, so I really don't know for certain.
Kimokeo 06-13-07, 02:15 PM	I have a warlock in my game and he's not a problem. Blasting doors apart? Why is he blasting doors? There's a trap? How did they find the trap? Most Warlocks I've seen can't find a trap on their own - it requires another character or a dip into another class. What kind of trap was it? Their class skills aren't breaking the game. Eldritch Blast doesn't bother me. No more than the uber archer. If you can't challenge the character, then the DM is broken - not the class, feat, skill, etc.
SkyOdin 06-13-07, 03:50 PM	I played alongside a warlock for about 15 levels in a two year long campaign. The warlock never seemed particularly broken to me. Sure, throwing both a maximized and a quickened eldritch blast in the same turn tended to kill stuff, but my Paladin utterly destroyed evil things, the bard (with a prestige class) could blast as well as the warlock, the barbarian could consistantly win grapples against giants, the spiked chain fighter could trip anything in sight, and the party rogues and scouts tooks out entire groups of trolls on their own. Everyone was doing plenty of equally cool stuff. The warlock didn't outshine anyone, so it is balanced in my book.
Need_A_Life 06-13-07, 06:17 PM	I am playing a warlock in an Eberron campaign currently... possibly the same as Archangel62 (Throwing an interrogated prisoner into the wilderness wearing a loincloth, giving them a wedgie and then shattering it is standard operation procedure :D ), though I can't be certain. Dealing 2d6 (+1 if my opponent is within 30ft.) with +7 to my touch attack at level 4? Yippee... The barbarian/ranger and the soulknife are outdamagining me EVERY round, the rogue deals more damage with sneak attack + weapon damage, and the artificer simply makes his weapon Bane ([appropriate type]) during every encounter, dealing 1d8+2d6+2 damage. So yea, I'm totally dominating the game :rolleyes: Shatter helps me sunder opponent's weapons from a distance, allowing some measure of battle control. See the Unseen means I won't have to worry about invisible spellcasters using Hold Person again (made my save, but it's not very nice to do to someone who is already running like hell) My DR1/Cold iron makes up for the low HD for the most part, and my newly acquired Warlocks Scepter (Magic Item Compendium version) allows me to deal extra damage when I really need it, though I haven't used any of its charges yet.
Nephlite 06-13-07, 09:22 PM	Sometimes all the logic in the world won't change someones mind once they've made it uop. Just look at all the threads and posts about psionics that keep popping up. All you can do is show him the data and if he is dead set against it then that's that./ And to be honest the Warlock can be a bit annoying if he takes the shatter invocation. A guy in my last Eberron game had that and he was constantly trying to shatter everything. "I shatter his armor" "Sigh, he fails his will save." "W00t, he has no armor". Shatter rules.
Ayra 06-14-07, 10:13 AM	Everything you may think of that an eldritch blast might be capable of doing, some tool can do better. Digging? Why not just use a shovel? You can even dig with a sword if you're not interested in keeping it. Blasting the hinges of doors? Well doors can have different traps on them that are not triggered by opening them. How about putting 3 doors in a room, where only one out of 3 doors is the correct one? The rogue can figure out the mechanism behind the doors, but the warlock can only attempt to open them from a distance. Open the wrong door and the room gets hermetically closed and fills with water. He can try eldritch blasting the hole the water comes out of, but that'd only make it bigger. The rogue, on the other hand, could desperately try to disengage the mechanism behind the water-lock in the hole and thus disable the trap. Of course to teach them a lesson, the water comes from a room where the carcases of recently killed goblins have been rotting, requiring every player to make a fortitude save to overcome the diseased water. Given both your rogue and warlock are to blame (the rogue for not first checking for traps and allowing the warlock to just blast away) a fortitude save would be nice, because neither of them is very good at it.
forsaken1111 06-14-07, 12:40 PM	How about putting 3 doors in a room, where only one out of 3 doors is the correct one? The rogue can figure out the mechanism behind the doors, but the warlock can only attempt to open them from a distance. Open the wrong door and the room gets hermetically closed and fills with water. I shatter the water. I shatter the water. I shatter the water. I shatter the water. I shatter the water. I shatter the water. I shatter the water. I shatter the water. I shatter the water. I shatter the water. I shatter the water. I shatter the water. I shatter the water. I shatter the water. I shatter the water. I shatter the water. I shatter the water. I shatter the water. I shatter the water. I shatter the water. I shatter the water. I shatter the water. I shatter the water. I shatter the water. I shatter the water. I shatter the water. I shatter the water. I shatter the water. I shatter the water. I shatter the water. I shatter the water. I shatter the water. I shatter the water. I shatter the water. I shatter the water. I shatter the water. Until someone figures out how to plug the hole. Or... I shatter the other doors.
skywyze 06-14-07, 02:09 PM	Shatter the water? :confused:
forsaken1111 06-14-07, 02:57 PM	Shatter the water? :confused: Shatter turns something to dust. Its magic... don't try to explain why it can't work by physics. : P
green_yawgmoth 06-14-07, 03:29 PM	Fighters can swing their swords at anything they want infinite times a day. Rogues can sneak attack anything that's flat-footed or flanked infinite times a day. Monks can flurry of blows as many times in a day that they want. Anyone who takes sunder and sunder anything they want as often as they want. OMG b0rken!!!1 :rolleyes: Give your DM a kick in the teeth for me; he obviously has no concept of balance if he thinks a class that has about as much power as a bard is "broken". Edit: Shatter the water? Are you on crack? A. water is not brittle, nor is it solid. B. Water doesn't take damage. C. Ignoring A and B, okay, you break the water into "several pieces", as per the spell's description. Being that's it's liquid, it reforms into a wave again. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
forsaken1111 06-14-07, 03:31 PM	Fighters can swing their swords at anything they want infinite times a day. Rogues can sneak attack anything that's flat-footed or flanked infinite times a day. Monks can flurry of blows as many times in a day that they want. Anyone who takes sunder and sunder anything they want as often as they want. OMG b0rken!!!1 :rolleyes: Give your DM a kick in the teeth for me; he obviously has no concept of balance if he thinks a class that has about as much power as a bard is "broken". http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif Well to be fair, bards can't baleful polymorph an unlimited number of times per day.
maharai23 06-14-07, 05:47 PM	Is he applying sneak attack damage to each blast? You only get sneak attack once in a round, no matter how many attacks you make. Can you show me that ruling? I know that if you make multiple attacks with one attack action, such as shurikens, only one gets the boost, but can you show me where only one sneak attack is granted on a full attack action? I've never seen that anywhere.
forsaken1111 06-14-07, 05:49 PM	Can you show me that ruling? I know that if you make multiple attacks with one attack action, such as shurikens, only one gets the boost, but can you show me where only one sneak attack is granted on a full attack action? I've never seen that anywhere. Gha! I was thinking about a different rogue ability when I said that. I corrected myself later on. I'm gonna go back and edit it out since you're the 2nd person to question it without reading the whole thread. :) Edit: There, its been removed.
maharai23 06-14-07, 05:51 PM	Well to be fair, bards can't baleful polymorph an unlimited number of times per day. Bards can render you helpless, no save, with a touch attack. I'd say that's on par. Warlocks get baleful one level before wizards get temporal stasis, meteor swarm, and the like.
windscar18 06-14-07, 10:30 PM	Well... THE WARLOCK SHATTERS THE METEOR :P He also shatters the wizard.
itwasntme 06-14-07, 11:00 PM	Unfortenitly ill answer this as if i was the DM i would say OK HOWEVER i would limit the abilitys on the WarLock i wouldnt want a warlock trying to shatter EVEYTHING! so if the warlock in my group did something like that i would say punpun appears and eats you and then runs off ... though you would get a warning first So in this case becouse of the DM stateing he hates many things about the WarLock (Unlimited times a day can be VERY deadly even if its only 1/round and can be very Abusive) so let it be just dont play a WarLock
Arin 06-14-07, 11:08 PM	Damn, I shall have to deliver the bad news to our warlock. He's playing a gestalt warlock/rogue and when flanking hands out 1d6 per level from invocation+sneak attack. With multiple attacks per round, it gets a trifle much. With the 1 per round limit, .... hmm. In some situations, he'd be better off getting in multiple attacks with a reach weapon, or maybe using a missile weapon. Do point blank and precise shot apply to eldrich blast? Just wait until he stacks improved evasion and dark discorporeation. For me Gestalt Campaign + Warlock = Never Again
forsaken1111 06-14-07, 11:11 PM	Well here's a question. You guys who have said you don't like the warlock, do you have any problem with the dragonfire adept?
Archangel62 06-15-07, 12:18 AM	Just wait until he stacks improved evasion and dark discorporeation. For me Gestalt Campaign + Warlock = Never Again Gestalt campaigns tend to create horrible by their mere existence. For example, Incarnum + anything else.
pmurray@bigpond.com 06-15-07, 01:12 AM	Just wait until he stacks improved evasion and dark discorporeation. For me Gestalt Campaign + Warlock = Never Again Where's the cheese? Dark discorpration mans you turn into a swarm of bats. Improved evasion means you take haldf damage from a failed reflex. I don't get it.
forsaken1111 06-15-07, 01:14 AM	Where's the cheese? Dark discorpration mans you turn into a swarm of bats. Improved evasion means you take haldf damage from a failed reflex. I don't get it. Swarms are immune to physical damage but take double damage from area damage spells. Improved Evasion means they take normal (not double) damage on a failed save, and no damage on a successful save. This means the swarm's biggest weakness is negated entirely, and nothing but area magic or a few other things can even hurt it. And most times (Successful saves) it won't even take damage on AoE magic.
danielinthewolvesden 06-15-07, 01:44 AM	He claims that the unlimited nature of the blast lets the warlock outperform an arcane caster if the party hits 3 or more encounters in one day. :confused: I think it kicks in around 8+ encounters per day. Now, Sorc has it's day somewhere between 5-8. Psion will break your game if you normally have only 1 or 2. As I DM, I try to hew closely to around 4, with an occ 1 and an occ 8, so everyone has fun.
Salla 06-15-07, 01:57 AM	Swarms are immune to physical damage but take double damage from area damage spells. Improved Evasion means they take normal (not double) damage on a failed save, and no damage on a successful save. This means the swarm's biggest weakness is negated entirely, and nothing but area magic or a few other things can even hurt it. And most times (Successful saves) it won't even take damage on AoE magic. Of course, if you read the ability, they only get move actions, not standard actions ... so while they're in swarm form, they can't do ANYTHING aggressive. No invoking (heck, they don't even have hands to gesture anyway). It's a decent defensive move, but it's hardly earthshattering. In fact, as written, since it takes a standard action to dismiss an effect, the warlock cannot turn it off until its duration expires. The opponents can just WALK AWAY FROM HIM. He becomes a complete nonissue except, perhaps, for spying. The other thing nobody mentioned about going all shattery on everything is, of course, the NOISE and evidence of passage. If you're trying to maneuver around in a typical dungeon, you really don't want to generate the really loud sound of things breaking every ten feet, broadcasting your location to things that are obviously smarter than you because they aren't breaking things.
forsaken1111 06-15-07, 02:03 AM	Of course, if you read the ability, they only get move actions, not standard actions ... so while they're in swarm form, they can't do ANYTHING aggressive. No invoking (heck, they don't even have hands to gesture anyway). It's a decent defensive move, but it's hardly earthshattering. In fact, as written, since it takes a standard action to dismiss an effect, the warlock cannot turn it off until its duration expires. The opponents can just WALK AWAY FROM HIM. He becomes a complete nonissue except, perhaps, for spying. The other thing nobody mentioned about going all shattery on everything is, of course, the NOISE and evidence of passage. If you're trying to maneuver around in a typical dungeon, you really don't want to generate the really loud sound of things breaking every ten feet, broadcasting your location to things that are obviously smarter than you because they aren't breaking things. Don't swarms make automatic attacks on anyone in their area? I'm AFB right now so can't check. Also quicken spell-like ability would still work, no?
Salla 06-15-07, 02:10 AM	Don't swarms make automatic attacks on anyone in their area? I'm AFB right now so can't check. Also quicken spell-like ability would still work, no? Same here, but since they lack hands for making the somatic components for their invocations, Quicken SLA doesn't work. In that case, it's not a matter of actions, it's 'Look Ma, No Hands' ... great when you're riding a bike, not so good when you're trying to invoke an Eldritch Blast.
ravenshrike 06-15-07, 02:58 AM	"I shatter his armor" "Sigh, he fails his will save." "W00t, he has no armor". Shatter rules. You will soon find chain shirt and chain mail become favorite armors that the enemy wears.
northern_bear 06-15-07, 08:41 AM	Is there a way to make him see that this isn't as unbalancing as he thinks, or is it a lost cause? The DM designs the campain, and he designs the adventures. He knows them better than you do. If he thinks that something is going to be an unbalancing force in his campange, or in his adventures, then there's a good chance he's right.
Ayra 06-15-07, 11:02 AM	I shatter the water. I shatter the water. I shatter the water. I shatter the water. I shatter the water. I shatter the water. I shatter the water. I shatter the water. I shatter the water. I shatter the water. I shatter the water. I shatter the water. I shatter the water. I shatter the water. I shatter the water. I shatter the water. I shatter the water. I shatter the water. I shatter the water. I shatter the water. I shatter the water. I shatter the water. I shatter the water. I shatter the water. I shatter the water. I shatter the water. I shatter the water. I shatter the water. I shatter the water. I shatter the water. I shatter the water. I shatter the water. I shatter the water. I shatter the water. I shatter the water. I shatter the water. Until someone figures out how to plug the hole. Or... I shatter the other doors. Sure go ahead and shatter the water and turn it to dust if that's possible. The room will fill itself with dust then. You can drown in many things. I shatter the dust. Bit by bit!
forsaken1111 06-15-07, 01:47 PM	Sure go ahead and shatter the water and turn it to dust if that's possible. The room will fill itself with dust then. You can drown in many things. I shatter the dust. Bit by bit! It might give someone time to find a way out through. Anyway, thank you all for your help. I'm going to be discussing it with my DM this sunday.
Ayra 06-15-07, 02:36 PM	It might give someone time to find a way out through. Anyway, thank you all for your help. I'm going to be discussing it with my DM this sunday. Good luck ;). Tons of dust mingled with poisoned water (resulting possibly in a poisoned mud that makes it harder to move, let alone swim through!) will sure scare any player off :p
ElberethSilverleaf 06-16-07, 12:47 AM	Sorry for my ignorance, but what book is the Warlock in? Also in game terms, how is his unlimited shatter abilities justified? I.E. how does he get access to an unlimited amount of magical energy? I'm assuming he is gimped in other areas to compensate, yes?
Archangel62 06-16-07, 01:12 AM	Sorry for my ignorance, but what book is the Warlock in? Also in game terms, how is his unlimited shatter abilities justified? I.E. how does he get access to an unlimited amount of magical energy? I'm assuming he is gimped in other areas to compensate, yes? The warlock is from complete arcane, the concept is that the warlock is a being whom personally, or is of the bloodline of, those who have forged pacts with outsiders or fey, offering a piece of their soul to touch the eternal magic that flows through all outsiders. The warlock has unlimited SLAs but they aren't really that spectacular, some are useful but nothing really huge. The warlock gets only 12 known total over 20 levels, that and since they can do all of 1 SLA a round without quicken, which let's them quicken 3 times a day, they really need to be built intelligently.
forsaken1111 06-16-07, 01:15 AM	I'm assuming he is gimped in other areas to compensate, yes? They trade away diversity for endurance. You only get to choose 12 invocations by level 20 barring feats.
Korvara_Verndari 06-21-07, 03:26 PM	Umm, maybe its just me (and I havenn't read more then the first page) but I'm pretty sure that despite the eldritch blast being a spell-like ability it can be used more then once per round. I don't have my copy of Complete Arcane on me but I did look up the Errata for it and it states "An eldritch blast (EB) is the equivalent of a 1st-level spell. If you apply a blast shape or eldritch essence invocation to your eldritch blast (see page 130), your eldritch blast uses the level equivalent of the shape or essence.” It also says, "A warlock can use eldritch blast at will." At will, to me, says that as long as their BAB supports is they can fire an EB. I will have to go look at me book to verify this but I won't be able to do that until later. Now I know that the damage for the blast goes up every other level (2d6 @ 3rd, 3d6 @ 5th, etc) and that it does half damage to objects (unless using the shatter invocation) so I don't understand what the problem your DM has with Warlocks is, they aren't that over powered unless put into the hands of a munchkin or someone who is out to ruin the fun for others. Kor
Joseph_Silver 06-21-07, 03:45 PM	"At will" almost always means "as a standard action".
Salla 06-21-07, 03:47 PM	"At will" almost always means "as a standard action". Actually, "at will" means "no daily limit". The text very clearly and unequivocably states that using an Eldritch Blast is a Standard Action.
Sunic_Flames 06-21-07, 03:47 PM	And at will normally for SLAs, means once per round as it is a standard action. Full attacking is not an option. Though, even if you could 27d6 a round at high levels is not that high. And that assumes all hit. Edit: Damn Rokugan ninjas.
Salla 06-21-07, 03:47 PM	"At will" almost always means "as a standard action". Actually, "at will" just means "no daily limit". The text very clearly and unequivocably states that using an Eldritch Blast is a Standard Action.
Merestil Haye 06-21-07, 03:54 PM	Umm, maybe its just me (and I havenn't read more then the first page) but I'm pretty sure that despite the eldritch blast being a spell-like ability it can be used more then once per round.You can not use Eldritch Blast more than once per round. Eldritch Blast is an Invovation. Invocations are a special kind of spell-like abilities, the main difference being that it has somatic components. It is therefore subject to the same usage rules as every other spell-like ability.Spell-Like Abilities (Sp) Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A few spell-like abilities are unique; these are explained in the text where they are described. A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus or have an XP cost. The user activates it mentally. Armor never affects a spell-like ability’s use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somatic component. A spell-like ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell:(Bolding mine). A spell-like ability is usable "at will" if the creature has no daily usage limit on the ability. It still requires the creature to take the "Use spell-like ability" standard action to attack with an Eldritch Blast. You can only take one standard action per round. If "At will" meant what you thought it did, then a Balor, which has a base attack of +20, could do any of the following four times per round in combat :blasphemy (DC 25), dominate monster (DC 27), greater dispel magic, greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only), insanity (DC 25), power word stun, telekinesis (DC 23), unholy aura (DC 26);So you'd be happy that the creature could hit every single member of a 4-man party with Greater Dispel Magic (CL20) in one round? Or teleport away and do that three times? Or Blasphemy? Dominate Monster? Don't you think that's a touch overpowered?
zelf_gale 06-21-07, 04:27 PM	I have been the DM for a party with a warlock. I didn't like the effect the warlock had on encounters, particularly in published adventures. Most published adventures are not written to take continuous high damage ranged attacks into account. I also found them difficult to account for in wide open battlefields with the invocation that extends their range, flying, and greater invisibility. They outshine any other caster in siege situations due to their endurance. I would not suggest this class for any PC, not because it is overpowered though. I don't suggest it because it breaks the x encounters/day limit that is imposed on magic casters, and conversely the mundane characters who depend on their support. A warlock does consistent amounts of damage all day, often from a distance which allows them to refrain from losing hit points. It doesn't fit into adventures and parties that follow this pattern. If you still want to be a warlock, make sure you understand the limits of your abilities, including the standard action of the ranged attack and the number and level of invocations you can learn at each level. Also be prepared for role playing drawbacks as well, as your abilities are very identifiable and the source of your powers will be a point of contention with many NPCs you'd otherwise call allies.
forsaken1111 06-21-07, 04:29 PM	I also found them difficult to account for in wide open battlefields with the invocation that extends their range, flying, and greater invisibility. They outshine any other caster in siege situations due to their endurance. Well remember, even if he's invisible the blasts are not and everyone on the battlefield can see a 250ft beam of energy from his position every time it happens. An enemy wizard is going to notice that, and could easily go invisible himself to hunt the warlock or cast true seeing on himself and take him down.
Vharuck 06-21-07, 04:55 PM	I have been the DM for a party with a warlock. I didn't like the effect the warlock had on encounters, particularly in published adventures. Most published adventures are not written to take continuous high damage ranged attacks into account. So archery-focused rangers break published adventures? Because with a simple bow that gives +1d6 elemental damage, they can let loose so many arrows (that will have enhancement bonuses to attack and damage) as to surpass the warlock. And those only have to be normal, mundane arrows. Pocket change to buy enough for a lifetime at that level.
Salla 06-21-07, 05:50 PM	I have been the DM for a party with a warlock. I didn't like the effect the warlock had on encounters, particularly in published adventures. Most published adventures are not written to take continuous high damage ranged attacks into account. High damage?! 9d6 is NOT high damage in D&D. That's continuous mediocre damage, tops.
Ayra 06-21-07, 06:10 PM	High damage?! 9d6 is NOT high damage in D&D. That's continuous mediocre damage, tops. It can be increased. By the time the warlock is level 20, he will probably also have a chasuble of greater fell power (+2d6 damage). Combine all that with greater psionic shot (+4d6) and hellfire blast (+6d6) you'll have some nice damage. Add up mortalbane (+2d6 for 5 shots) and the warlock's sceptre (not sure how much that is) and the damage will be by far greater than 9d6 ;). There are also epic feats that increase eldritch blast die, but when going into epic I'm not so sure if increasing your eldritch blast is the best idea. In fact, warlock isn't very attractive then since wizards have so many spells per day and spells known that they can basically do everything they want anyway! Lets see. Greater Psionic Shot when used with Psionic Meditation can be used every turn, sacrificing a move action. With eldritch spear that should be easy, since you can keep a distance. Chasuble of fell power and hellfire blast can also be cast continuously. With that wildheart vest thingy (or whatever it is >.>) you recover from the con damage in the next turn anyway. That's 21d6 damage every shot that can always be cast. That's pretty nice. Power it up with warlocks sceptre and mortalbane and you have even more.. Add eldritch chain or eldritch doom for some aoe damage and you do very nice overall damage per turn ;) Maximize spell-like ability or Quicken spell-like ability for optimal effect! Anyway. This'll mess up your feats a lot and at level 20 it's not really the damage that counts, but the instant kill moves and all the other nice abilities a warlock either doesn't have, or has very few of. The warlock is nice, but definitely not overpowered.
skywyze 06-21-07, 06:18 PM	I dunno, that still sounds weak to me. Our straight human fighter does 150 damage per round at level 10 without straining himself. And that's after blowing feats on RP elements like Leadership. He could probably break 200 if he dared break a sweat. And that's every round, all day long. 21d6 is still only 73.5 damage on average. I've had wizards who did more damage... In anti-magic fields. >.< I think the warlock needs some serious loving before it becomes the powerhouse that this DM seems to think it is.
Maekrix_Waere 06-21-07, 07:39 PM	(snip) What books are all those in?
danielinthewolvesden 06-21-07, 08:35 PM	I have been the DM for a party with a warlock. I didn't like the effect the warlock had on encounters, particularly in published adventures. Most published adventures are not written to take continuous high damage ranged attacks into account. I also found them difficult to account for in wide open battlefields with the invocation that extends their range, flying, and greater invisibility. They outshine any other caster in siege situations due to their endurance. Most published adventures are not written to take continuous moderate damage ranged attacks into account. Less than a regular arcanist and about the same as a decent archer. A Sorc can fly and be invisible as much as is needed in any normal encounter. Yes, a Warlock will RULE in a siege. Which occurs maybe one game in a 100,000.
Ayra 06-22-07, 01:04 PM	I dunno, that still sounds weak to me. Our straight human fighter does 150 damage per round at level 10 without straining himself. And that's after blowing feats on RP elements like Leadership. He could probably break 200 if he dared break a sweat. And that's every round, all day long. 21d6 is still only 73.5 damage on average. I've had wizards who did more damage... In anti-magic fields. >.< I think the warlock needs some serious loving before it becomes the powerhouse that this DM seems to think it is. Keep in mind that compared to the fighter, the warlock deals: 1. Ranged Damage 2. With a touch attack (touch AC is much easier to overcome) 3. Spell-damage (Not subject to DR, with vitriolic blast not subject to spell resistance either) I think those 3 factors matter a lot and definitely make the warlock a character that deals steady damage every turn. It'd be hard for the DM to come up with a creature that manages to negate warlock damage! What books are all those in? http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/feats for a complete list of feats (always nice ;)) Mortalbane is in BoVD. Psionic Meditation, Psionic Shot and Greater Psionic Shot are in XPH. Shape Soulmeld (Strongheart Vest) is in Magic of Incarnum (Though I'm not sure if that's strongheart vest.. might be wildheart vest as well.. keep mixing those up >.>'). Complete Arcane contains all the warlock items I mentioned: Chasuble of Greater Fell Power and Warlock's Sceptre. I'm not sure what book the epic warlock feat is in to increase eldritch blast damage. The hellfire warlock prc is in Fiendish Codex II. But it's also a web supplement, at: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061207a&page=3 Hope this helps ;)
forsaken1111 06-22-07, 02:37 PM	KIt'd be hard for the DM to come up with a creature that manages to negate warlock damage! It took me about 6 seconds of thought to think of one: A golem which is immune to acid damage. The warlock would be useless.
Ayra 06-22-07, 04:21 PM	It took me about 6 seconds of thought to think of one: A golem which is immune to acid damage. The warlock would be useless. True, but how often do you run into enemies specifically tailored to render the warlock useless? There are more monsters that have flying (where the meleer needs to use a ranged weapon) or DR (not that DR really matters when doing such a load of damage ;P) or high AC (which sortof matters). Btw, that 150 damage is in a full attack I suppose. Warlocks can only blast once per round (or twice with quicken sla), but for that they still have their movement (except when they expend it for a psionic focus). I admit a fighter deals more damage without expending anything, but my opinion still stands that the warlock is almost always capable of dealing damage. I'm not sure how well type manipulation goes, but it might even be possible to make the vitriolic blast deal something other than acid damage, being a bit more versatile in the kind of damage one deals. But how many (non-custom) monsters are there with high spell resistance and acid immunity?
windscar18 06-22-07, 05:22 PM	Yes, but constant, medium damage versus situation, but higher damage both have their good sides and their downsides. On another note, this perfectly means that the Warlock is perfectly balanced :P.
Maekrix_Waere 06-22-07, 07:03 PM	(snip) 1-It's the Strongheart Vest. 2-How do you get any of the soulbinds onto a character who is not able to make them himself? I may have misread, but it like you can only "wear" soulbinds if you bound them yourself.
DaidojiTaidoru 06-22-07, 07:59 PM	True, but how often do you run into enemies specifically tailored to render the warlock useless? Hopefully never. Having monsters that turn a certain class into a spectator is a totally lame way of preserving balance. "I know, we'll have class A totally dominate 3 encounters but in the fourth he might as well pack his bags and leave early!" Not that the warlock falls into that set, or for that matter most optimized strong PHB classes, but I saw a lot of that in 2nd ed. (There might be a monster to do that. I'm not up on my monsters.) Btw, that 150 damage is in a full attack I suppose. Warlocks can only blast once per round (or twice with quicken sla), but for that they still have their movement (except when they expend it for a psionic focus). Possibly with a charge as well. I've seen a less then oped charge build deal 100 damage at level 11 with a charge then another 80 or so the next 3 poor fools that hit him after (shock trooper/kharmic strike build). I've also seen a Warrior (not fighter, the NPC Warrior) build that one rounds a Balor with a longbow at level 18ish. I think it had a 88% success rate.
Salla 06-22-07, 08:02 PM	1-It's the Strongheart Vest. 2-How do you get any of the soulbinds onto a character who is not able to make them himself? I may have misread, but it like you can only "wear" soulbinds if you bound them yourself. The Shape Soulmeld feat lets you pick a single meld and slap it on. :)
Karish 06-22-07, 08:42 PM	My opinion on the warlock: Eldritch blast is unlimited in use, but limited in power. At most, an unaltered blast will be 10d6 per round, with occasionally more if you got Quicken SLA. A wizard will be dumping a lot more than 10d6 on a guy in one round, and will beat the **** out of a warlock if he gives it some umph. A warlock is also limited in the number of spells. Self buffs and eldritch boosts are the main reason to play; it allows them to be similar to a fully buffes wizard using all this. Also, while it does damage objects, an eldritch blast can't be used for tunneling too well. One round is roughly 6 seconds. If it takes me 6 seconds to smack a hole in a wall the size of a hammer hit, when a powerful fighter could topple it in about 5 swings, he'll be done first due to full attacks and the critical hit potential. I don't really see them as unbalanced. They make good item casters and blasters, but they are hindered by a lack of options, a reliance on their invocations which are crap against animated objects, and roleplay reasons to boot. The Paladin must endure the struggle to remain LG and a just, fair person; the Warlock must endure being feared, hated, and persecuted wherever he goes. His magical nature makes him distrusted, and those who know what he is might just kill him outright. Life's tough as a low level Warlock, specifically. They die pretty easy if the party isn't supporting them, and they tend to be just a bit better than an average crossbowman.
Salla 06-22-07, 08:51 PM	Also, while it does damage objects, an eldritch blast can't be used for tunneling too well. One round is roughly 6 seconds. If it takes me 6 seconds to smack a hole in a wall the size of a hammer hit, when a powerful fighter could topple it in about 5 swings, he'll be done first due to full attacks and the critical hit potential. Nitpick: You can't crit objects. However, the fighter is more likely to have an Adamantine weapon and bypass hardness than a Warlock is to spend a precious feat on Hammer Blast to deal full damage (and still have to deal with hardness).
danielinthewolvesden 06-22-07, 09:00 PM	Keep in mind that compared to the fighter, the warlock deals: 1. Ranged Damage 2. With a touch attack (touch AC is much easier to overcome) 3. Spell-damage (Not subject to DR, with vitriolic blast not subject to spell resistance either) I think those 3 factors matter a lot and definitely make the warlock a character that deals steady damage every turn. It'd be hard for the DM to come up with a creature that manages to negate warlock damage! ) You hardly need to NEGATE a warlock's damage. High touch A/C, and/or concealment will nerf them, and SR and acid resistance (not uncommon in higher levesl) will do so also. An archer can do more damage on a steady basis than a warlock. I ran one once, and the Bbn could do slightly more damage on a single hit,and FAR more damage on a FAO, which Warlock never gets. And I had a Greater Chausable (almost half my cash!), too! The Sorc did more damage on any given spell, and the area effect spells did many mnay times my damage. And, rarely did he run out of spells. Mind you, the continual See Ivis and unlimited Dispel Magic both made my Warlock useful anyway. Dm's soooo love it when you can "take 20" as a Dispel on a magic trap!:D That's what makes a Warlock neat, not the damage.
forsaken1111 06-22-07, 09:11 PM	Mind you, the continual See Ivis and unlimited Dispel Magic both made my Warlock useful anyway. Dm's soooo love it when you can "take 20" as a Dispel on a magic trap!:D That's what makes a Warlock neat, not the damage. How exactly did you take a 20?
Salla 06-22-07, 09:16 PM	How exactly did you take a 20? Since you don't run out of uses, you can just make your dispel checks until you hit a 20.
Karish 06-22-07, 09:19 PM	Since you don't run out of uses, you can just make your dispel checks until you hit a 20. Precicely. You can take 10 even in stressful situations too, so that's pretty badass.
forsaken1111 06-22-07, 10:03 PM	Since you don't run out of uses, you can just make your dispel checks until you hit a 20. Ahh ok, I thought you meant you found a way to take 20 on caster level checks. I got excited for a minute there...
Matthew77 06-23-07, 12:06 AM	It'd be hard for the DM to come up with a creature that manages to negate warlock damage! Ray Deflection? Its a 4th level spell in the Spell Compendium. Since my campaign has a lot of casters flinging metamagiced "Orb" spells around, most mid to high level arcane casters keep one of those babies prepared.