Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TheFlyingAsian 02-16-08, 11:07 AM	Ok. Two of my friends and my brother are playing a really casual campaign, in which my brother is the DM. The problem is my brother has a huge tendancy to railroad us into doing what he wants (Actually, into not doing what he doesn't want us to do. But whatever.). But this isn't a serious campaign at all, so we plan on playing it no matter what, but... Do any of you have any suggestion on how to subtly discourage DM-railroading (I mean, like in-campaign ways to play and such)? It's not such a huge problem that I feel like I need to confront the DM about it out-of-game, but it's just barely irritating enough that I'd like it to stop. Obviously, if it becomes a big problem, I'll just talk to him about it, but for right now I'd just like to avoid the awkward moments that follow a confrontation like that. I hope that makes sense...any questions? Comments and advice (obviously) welcome and encouraged.
kelvinaw273 02-16-08, 11:54 AM	Can you give us an example of the kind of railroading he does? Different people have different definitions, and one players railroading is another player's plot-hook. In fact, I have known players who deliberately ignore plot hooks and take the direction they know the DM has not prepared and whine about 'railroading' when they are not permitted to s**w the entire game over. I have also known DM's ho erect mile-high instant walls of adamantium across every route out of town except the one you know leads to certain doom (yes, in close to 30 years of playing and DMing I have met some cr*ppy players and DMs ... and also some brilliant ones!).
TheFlyingAsian 02-16-08, 12:38 PM	Well, in the last session we played, we came to an abandoned city looking for some magical necklace. Our party was us PC's, and a drow warrior of unknown capabilities (who happened to disapear during combat :shifty: ). After killing 4 zombies, we found the necklace. We then said we wanted to explore the city, because it seemed a little shady to find only 4 zombies in a whole abandoned city. Then, the DM decided the drow warrior suddenly had the necklace in his possesion and was leaving right then. We argued, saying that us PC's actually found the necklace, and that the drow would at least have to make some sort of roll to take it from us. So the DM make some roll of some sort, and the drow had the necklace (whatever). So we said we wanted to stop the drow from leaving, but the DM gave us this creepy smile saying "Are you sure?". So we just gave up and left. Wow. Typing that up makes me think we need a new DM...maybe I should tak to him.
CryoSilver 02-16-08, 12:55 PM	I say you punch him, subtly.
jage 02-16-08, 01:06 PM	Yeah, talk to him before it gets worse.
Krusk 02-16-08, 01:09 PM	You could always buy one of thosse wooden train whistles. http://www.westsky.com/music4a.jpg Blow it when he starts. Im sure he would love that... The best solution though is to mention it to him, and ask him to tone it down. Most people don't realize they are railroading, and think it is a subtle plot steering (regardless of how subtle). If you say "hey dude, can we get a say in whats happening, you seem to make most descisions" he will probably tone it down.
DrMorganes 02-16-08, 02:12 PM	That was definitely railroading. Thing is, railroading isn't an in-character problem. It isn't something you can deal with from an in-character perspective. The DM is all-powerful in-game. A play-by-post DM of mine recently noted, "The PCs belong to the players. Everything else is MINE." The sun literally rises and sets at the whim of the DM. Nope, you need to address this outside the game, and preferably sometime before the next session. Let him know what you enjoy about the campaign, but also let him know that the railroading he pulled in the last session was a Very Bad Thing (TM). Tell him nicely but clearly that such manipulation really isn't any full at all. If you need some examples of what to do differently, here are a few: Never allow an NPC powerful enough to wipe the entire party of PCs to adventure with said PCs. The game is about the players, thank you very much. Their characters are the focus of the game, not some ultra-powerful (and in this instance, horribly cliched) DMPC. Don't pass up an opportunity to allow the players a choice. If the players want to explore the abandoned city, let 'em explore the abandoned city! That doesn't mean that your entire plot needs to be put on hold. Quite the contrary! Time still passes for PC and NPC alike. If the players waste a day and a half exploring an undead-infested city and another day healing and selling loot, that's two and a half days not spent tracking down clues, traveling, or otherwise foiling the BBEG's plans. Don't use DM fiat to remove items from the possession of one or more PCs without serious consideration. Hold your NPCs to the same rules as the PCs. Allowing your NPCs to do things the players cannot is a Very Bad Thing. It messes with your game's internal consistency, which makes it harder for the players to buy into your world. Worse, it messes with your players' ability to trust their DM, which makes the game completely unenjoyable for nearly everyone. From my perspective, he should have made the exploration of this necropolis an adventure in and of itself. The party obviously wanted to explore this deserted city - where's the harm in allowing you to take a few extra hours of game time to do so? In his haste to run his "adventure", he paradoxically cheated the party out of one!
DrMorganes 02-16-08, 02:13 PM	I say you punch him, subtly. With a chair? :D
Sinfire Titan 02-16-08, 02:29 PM	With a Hammergun? :D Fixed. You only hit DMs with one of three items: Crowbar Hammergun Spartan Lazer Anything else will merely prove to anger them and possibly be considered animal abuse (not sure if a Train Conductor counts as an animal though).
CryoSilver 02-16-08, 03:30 PM	With a chair? :D Chairs are for hitting players (http://www.geocities.com/absolutecryogenic/dnd/steve.pdf)
TheFlyingAsian 02-16-08, 04:22 PM	Well, we just had a two-hour session, and I ended up DMing it, 'cause the rest of the players got ****** after we went through this: P1: Wait. We never got our payment for getting the Queen that necklace! P2: Yeah...well, let's go get paid. DM: OK. She pays you. Group: :nonono: P1: Ok. You're done. You, start DMing. Now. Me: Ok... And I ended up running a pretty good session, although I would've liked to play... Oh well.
Etarnon 02-16-08, 05:04 PM	Hey, good luck with it. I always prefer to be the DM.
Josheva 02-17-08, 04:30 AM	In fact, I have known players who deliberately ignore plot hooks and take the direction they know the DM has not prepared In my early DND days I did that as a joke. The DM didn't take it as intented. I apologized and didn't do it again :(. I later respected his position. Anyways, I have never really had a problem with DM railroading, but I did once have a problem with a DM who wasn't so great at creating fun and interesting plotlines. We, the PCs, solved the problem by doing the following: 1) We began discussing our plans out loud and in detail very often. 2) We began discussing the possible outcomes of events in the world, including the ones that we had no part in. 3) We began discussing our individual long term goals, and how we might achieve them. All three of these were done in character. Doing this gave the DM a lot of ideas about where we were headed, what could happen in the world, and what would interest us. I strongly recommend players to practice doing this; not only does it help the DM run his world, but it also creates many enjoyable roleplaying experiences that help your characters come to life. It also puts an end to the "It would take you eight hours to get there. Okay, you get there" thing. Some DM's measure travel time in random encounters, I find it more enjoyable to measure it in in-character conversation time :). I am not sure if this technique would work for railroading DM's, but it's worth a shot.
kelvinaw273 02-17-08, 04:57 AM	In my early DND days I did that as a joke. The DM didn't take it as intented. I apologized and didn't do it again :(. I later respected his position. Anyways, I have never really had a problem with DM railroading, but I have had problems with DM's who weren't so great at creating fun and interesting plotlines. We, the PCs, solved the problem by doing the following: 1) We began discussing our plans out loud and in detail very often. 2) We began discussing the possible outcomes of events in the world, including the ones that we had no part in. 3) We began discussing our individual long term goals, and how we might achieve them. All three of these were done in character. Doing this gave the DM a lot of ideas about where we were headed, what could happen in the world, and what would interest us. I strongly recommend players to practice doing this; not only does it help the DM run his world, but it also creates many enjoyable roleplaying experiences that help your characters come to life. It also puts an end to the "It would take you eight hours to get there. Okay, you get there" thing. Some DM's measure travel time in random encounters, I find it more enjoyable to measure it in in-character conversation time :). I LIKE players like you! Well, in the last session we played, we came to an abandoned city looking for some magical necklace. Our party was us PC's, and a drow warrior of unknown capabilities (who happened to disapear during combat :shifty: ). After killing 4 zombies, we found the necklace. We then said we wanted to explore the city, because it seemed a little shady to find only 4 zombies in a whole abandoned city. Then, the DM decided the drow warrior suddenly had the necklace in his possesion and was leaving right then. We argued, saying that us PC's actually found the necklace, and that the drow would at least have to make some sort of roll to take it from us. So the DM make some roll of some sort, and the drow had the necklace (whatever). So we said we wanted to stop the drow from leaving, but the DM gave us this creepy smile saying "Are you sure?". So we just gave up and left. Wow. Typing that up makes me think we need a new DM...maybe I should tak to him. Yep, that's railroading. The Dm created something that looked fantastic (look, an entire city!) but didn't put the actual work in. The same purpose could have been served by a cave, a ruined hovel, whatever. Sounds like you solved the problem by DMing yourself, so go for it. The art to it is in the preparation!
Josheva 02-17-08, 05:02 AM	I LIKE players like you! If there was an emoticon that resembled embarassed/complimented I would be showing it. As it is, you get the fett man. :fett:
kelvinaw273 02-17-08, 11:11 AM	If there was an emoticon that resembled embarassed/complimented I would be showing it. As it is, you get the fett man. :fett: LOL, well you might change your mind after I decide that the best way to fit your background into the plot I have in mind is to have your family murdered and your child-hood sweetheart forced to marry the BBEG ... :devil: What? I never said I'd use it in a nice way ... <sigh> ... OK, she doesn't have to marry the BBEG, and some of your siblings can live, alright?
calronmoonflower 02-17-08, 05:43 PM	Just talk to him strait out about it. You don't really need to be subtle, just non-insulting about it. If that doesn't work buy a little train and use it as a paper weight. When he starts this up move it back and forth while making train noises.
MergedLoki 02-18-08, 04:09 AM	Well, we just had a two-hour session, and I ended up DMing it, 'cause the rest of the players got ****** after we went through this: P1: Wait. We never got our payment for getting the Queen that necklace! P2: Yeah...well, let's go get paid. DM: OK. She pays you. Group: :nonono: P1: Ok. You're done. You, start DMing. Now. Me: Ok... And I ended up running a pretty good session, although I would've liked to play... Oh well. I DM'd for the first... oh i dont know 5 - 6 years i played and finally I just said 'ok look i WANT to play a pc someone else DM for a session or 2' and I helped em out (still do in fact), but now we take turns DMing, (there's about 2 of us that do a turn for turn thing and the other guy just comes in if he has a good adventure he wants to do). so ok when im dming i have a DMPC so you'd hafta decide if that's something your group wants, but it works out fine for my group. just a thought.
Grod_The_Giant 02-18-08, 03:31 PM	OK, your DM does seem to have a bit of a problem, but (as a DM) I find that some players seem to throw the "railroad" term around too much. I'm sure there are some people who can pull an entire adventure out of thin air when called for, but I often have trouble with that. Sometimes a player does something so totally unexpected and contrary to your plans that all you can do is say "no. You can't do that, it'll ruin this adventure."
Ace_of_time 02-19-08, 11:17 AM	Well, in the last session we played, we came to an abandoned city looking for some magical necklace. Our party was us PC's, and a drow warrior of unknown capabilities (who happened to disapear during combat :shifty: ). After killing 4 zombies, we found the necklace. We then said we wanted to explore the city, because it seemed a little shady to find only 4 zombies in a whole abandoned city. Then, the DM decided the drow warrior suddenly had the necklace in his possesion and was leaving right then. We argued, saying that us PC's actually found the necklace, and that the drow would at least have to make some sort of roll to take it from us. So the DM make some roll of some sort, and the drow had the necklace (whatever). So we said we wanted to stop the drow from leaving, but the DM gave us this creepy smile saying "Are you sure?". So we just gave up and left. Wow. Typing that up makes me think we need a new DM...maybe I should tak to him. Now I'm not saying the DM was right here just pointing somethings out. The DM really doesn't have to roll for it. (he/she should have rolled for the drow and for you since you more then likily couldn't see the drow) So the drow could have hide/invisible and then PP it from you at anytime just because the DM wanted to. Just not fair way to do it. I wouldn't call it railroading. It feels like he has just been railroading you so long that you all just decided it was easier to go along. I know you have solved this problem now but in the future it is always better to just sit down as a group with the DM and talk about what the problem is. Maybe the DM didn't know he was railroading and somethings that look like railroad can just be a story thing to keep the adven going. Always talk first!
RainerNader 02-20-08, 09:01 PM	Just going to step up and defend the DM a little bit... his main mistake was giving you the option of an entire abandoned city, then not anticipating you guys wanted to explore more. I've been there before as DM, and usually what I just say is, "hey guys, I'm just really not prepared to provide some further adventures in this area, so we could just move on?" It's probably still a form of railroading, but at least I'm not trying to disguise it with bogus IC rulings.
pmurray@bigpond.com 02-21-08, 03:03 PM	... We then said we wanted to explore the city, because it seemed a little shady to find only 4 zombies in a whole abandoned city. Then, the DM decided the drow warrior suddenly had the necklace in his possesion and was leaving right then. D&D is collaborative fiction. Collaborative means everyone cooperates in creating the magic. What I do in this situation is "Guys, I don't have anything prepared for the city." And then we all of us politely ignore the city, perhaps even reversing the encounter and agreeing on what "really" happened. Maybe it wasn't a city after all. Maybe one of the players comes up with a pressing reason why they have to return home. Together we try to invent some consistent story. And it winds up in the log (the link to which is in my sig). What doesn't happen is that my players don't go "Waaaah! I wunna go abandoned city!" when I simply don't have anything prepared. However, if ever I were DMming a group and it came to that, I hope I would have the courage to - instead of railroading - to say "ok, we'll have to finish up tonight and I'll prepare something for next week." Some DMs are brilliantly inventive and can make up a whole abandoned city on the spot and make it convincing. I just am not that good - I'm running a module written by someone else and that's about my level. In short: to avoid railroading, come to terms with your DM's limits and play within them (or just at the edge of them). Cooperate and play nice. ------- After reading some other posts, I'll add this: I agree that it can be the case that someone is just not good enough at it to be DM. It's a judgment call, unfortunately. Maybe they can get better. Maybe they will always suck. Maybe they will be ok, but you want something more or think you can do better. One thing I am doing now is playing in someone else's group as well as running DMming another game. I'm hoping it will keep me fresh.
blodgett 02-21-08, 03:33 PM	Gee ... and our DM is complaining that we're railroading him just cause we went off and did the module out of order. :D Silly us for thinking the town with the army could look after itself for a few days while we tried to kill the enemy leaders. :P Now he's had to rework half the module. :rolleyes: