DM house-ruling seems unfair [Archive] - Wizards Community

DM house-ruling seems unfair [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
fish_heads
07-12-04, 02:03 PM I'm in a campaign that, last I heard, is going to be an epic campaign into the depths of hell. I don't know what our motive is yet, but that's the idea.

Our DM has decided to start us at level 15. For an epic campaign, that seems really low, especially since he's managed a TPK in 4 of his last 5 campaigns.

The problem arose when I told him what kind of charater I wanted, basically a chain-wielding gestalted maniac. He alerted me to two things:

1) Gestalted characters will start not at level 15, but at level 12, to" preserve the value of non-gestalt characters.

2) Gestalted characters will not be allowed any Prestige Classes.

My problem isn't with the second so much as the first. Unearthed arcana states that a gestalted character party can handle encounters 1 CR higher on average. So is dropping the gestalted characters THREE levels fair?

I suppose that if we are going to gain tons of levels, it won't be as much an issue since we'll even out a bit more, but I guess what adds insult to injury is that he's also not allowing PrCs.

I dont' have a major problem with either one, but it's the combination that makes me feel cheated. Do other people think this is unfair or am I just being petty?

Keep in mind this is a High-power/Epic campaign.
Theocracity
07-12-04, 02:26 PM Doesn't UA also say that Gestalted characters shouldn't be mixed with normal ones?

He's kind of giving you a break as is.
Sildatorak
07-12-04, 03:05 PM If 3 levels is that big of a deal, try to create the same character using the classes and PrC's available to you. I can't really help you beyond that since there are a lot of directions you could go with "chain-wielding maniac" and I don't know which one you want.
Enslaved DM
07-12-04, 04:30 PM He's being merciful to allow you to use a Gestalt class at all. The best of two classes is beyond cheesy, it's uber-cheese. Why do you need prestige classes? You'll outperform most of them. Compare Arcane Trickster to gestalt wizard/rogue or eldritch knight to wizard/fighter. The only prestige classes you would be worth while taking are ones with even more cheese.

Your DM is being generous. And as far starting a campaign at 15 and aiming for Epic, that is reasonable. An Epic character needs background and an Epic party needs history. A few levels and you'll be there and it will be so much better than magically starting at level 21.
Eagle Vision
07-13-04, 02:59 AM Do not forget, that a gestalt char may be good, but a balor can still pulp him/her easier than a 15th level char.
fish_heads
07-13-04, 09:32 AM Originally posted by Eagle Vision
Do not forget, that a gestalt char may be good, but a balor can still pulp him/her easier than a 15th level char.

Yeah, given that He's TPKed 4 of his last 5 parties, I'm more than a little worried. He sometimes seems to rationale that +3 CR makes a good boss encounter for a weakened party.

Anyhow, he's decided on letting me choose 1 prestige class, which is what I was hoping for. Thanks for input, everyone.
[GSV] Kirstar
07-14-04, 10:55 AM if the Dm keeps killing parties then the parties arnt running quick enough
[GSV] Kirstar
07-14-04, 10:55 AM if the Dm keeps killing parties then the parties arnt running quick enough
Super Guy
07-14-04, 05:25 PM I think house-ruling can sometimes be unfair, usually because my DM, although good, begrudges giving us an upper hand if we find it. And he often gives his NPCs the upper hand. He's a really good DM, but it annoys me how his NPCs are generally capable of abusing rules, but we ourselves are not. He doesn't do this blatantly or all the time, just on a few occasions.

However, when it comes to Gestalt characters... I don't even like them. I prefer to generally play base races, and only allow prestige classes that are definitely balanced (mostly from the books like Defenders of the Faith/ Sword and Fist/ Song and Silence/ Tome and Blood/ Masters of the Wild)

I'm going to say that your DM is being fair. He doesn't really want Gestalt characters, it seems, but he'll allow it if you as a player take the penalty. If you won't have a penalty, he won't have Gestalt.
[GSV] Kirstar
07-14-04, 05:52 PM i run my games along the following lines.

if the pc's can do it the npc's can do it & vice versa

currently I have several inter twining games running.

1. A group of age 2 green dragons (with polymorph self ability cus im nice) are attempting to set themselves up with a lair & treasure. coucil of worms style

2. A group of big bad evil pc's have opened a portal to the 9 hells and are summoning devils for their army to take over the world.

3. a group of goody goody pc's who have recently died attempting to kill their own bad pc's.

all this + some npc's in the backround.

makes for an interesting campaign world.

Anyway, the pc's know that i use the same rules for them as i do for the npc's
Edymnion
07-14-04, 07:39 PM I agree.
You are asking to play a HIGHLY overpowered VARIANT rule that is specifically spelled out as being unnacceptable for mixed play or in a group with sufficient players.

You are lucky he's letting you play the thing at all, because I wouldn't have even considered it.

There is no reason you can't play with normal multiclassing and just roleplay it the exact same way as your gestalt idea. The only reason I can see to get upset is that you just wanted a mechanically superior butt kicking machine, and not an actual fleshed out character.

And if your main problem with all of this was the first one, why is it suddenly okay now that he let you have a PrC? Sorry man, it just comes across sounding like you just want a munchy character, and your DM wasn't going to let it fly.
fish_heads
07-14-04, 08:11 PM Originally posted by Edymnion
Iit just comes across sounding like you just want a munchy character, and your DM wasn't going to let it fly.

Have you ever fought a balor at level 15? Something that is 2 levels or CR ratings above you is exactly TWICE as tough. three levels is a lot to ask, even if it will even out over time. The fact that the two aren't sopposed to mix isn't problem players should have to deal with - all the options should be made at least comparably equal. Also taken into consideration is that only ONE person is playing non- gestalt.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
fish_heads 07-12-04, 02:03 PM	I'm in a campaign that, last I heard, is going to be an epic campaign into the depths of hell. I don't know what our motive is yet, but that's the idea. Our DM has decided to start us at level 15. For an epic campaign, that seems really low, especially since he's managed a TPK in 4 of his last 5 campaigns. The problem arose when I told him what kind of charater I wanted, basically a chain-wielding gestalted maniac. He alerted me to two things: 1) Gestalted characters will start not at level 15, but at level 12, to" preserve the value of non-gestalt characters. 2) Gestalted characters will not be allowed any Prestige Classes. My problem isn't with the second so much as the first. Unearthed arcana states that a gestalted character party can handle encounters 1 CR higher on average. So is dropping the gestalted characters THREE levels fair? I suppose that if we are going to gain tons of levels, it won't be as much an issue since we'll even out a bit more, but I guess what adds insult to injury is that he's also not allowing PrCs. I dont' have a major problem with either one, but it's the combination that makes me feel cheated. Do other people think this is unfair or am I just being petty? Keep in mind this is a High-power/Epic campaign.
Theocracity 07-12-04, 02:26 PM	Doesn't UA also say that Gestalted characters shouldn't be mixed with normal ones? He's kind of giving you a break as is.
Sildatorak 07-12-04, 03:05 PM	If 3 levels is that big of a deal, try to create the same character using the classes and PrC's available to you. I can't really help you beyond that since there are a lot of directions you could go with "chain-wielding maniac" and I don't know which one you want.
Enslaved DM 07-12-04, 04:30 PM	He's being merciful to allow you to use a Gestalt class at all. The best of two classes is beyond cheesy, it's uber-cheese. Why do you need prestige classes? You'll outperform most of them. Compare Arcane Trickster to gestalt wizard/rogue or eldritch knight to wizard/fighter. The only prestige classes you would be worth while taking are ones with even more cheese. Your DM is being generous. And as far starting a campaign at 15 and aiming for Epic, that is reasonable. An Epic character needs background and an Epic party needs history. A few levels and you'll be there and it will be so much better than magically starting at level 21.
Eagle Vision 07-13-04, 02:59 AM	Do not forget, that a gestalt char may be good, but a balor can still pulp him/her easier than a 15th level char.
fish_heads 07-13-04, 09:32 AM	Originally posted by Eagle Vision Do not forget, that a gestalt char may be good, but a balor can still pulp him/her easier than a 15th level char. Yeah, given that He's TPKed 4 of his last 5 parties, I'm more than a little worried. He sometimes seems to rationale that +3 CR makes a good boss encounter for a weakened party. Anyhow, he's decided on letting me choose 1 prestige class, which is what I was hoping for. Thanks for input, everyone.
[GSV] Kirstar 07-14-04, 10:55 AM	if the Dm keeps killing parties then the parties arnt running quick enough
[GSV] Kirstar 07-14-04, 10:55 AM	if the Dm keeps killing parties then the parties arnt running quick enough
Super Guy 07-14-04, 05:25 PM	I think house-ruling can sometimes be unfair, usually because my DM, although good, begrudges giving us an upper hand if we find it. And he often gives his NPCs the upper hand. He's a really good DM, but it annoys me how his NPCs are generally capable of abusing rules, but we ourselves are not. He doesn't do this blatantly or all the time, just on a few occasions. However, when it comes to Gestalt characters... I don't even like them. I prefer to generally play base races, and only allow prestige classes that are definitely balanced (mostly from the books like Defenders of the Faith/ Sword and Fist/ Song and Silence/ Tome and Blood/ Masters of the Wild) I'm going to say that your DM is being fair. He doesn't really want Gestalt characters, it seems, but he'll allow it if you as a player take the penalty. If you won't have a penalty, he won't have Gestalt.
[GSV] Kirstar 07-14-04, 05:52 PM	i run my games along the following lines. if the pc's can do it the npc's can do it & vice versa currently I have several inter twining games running. 1. A group of age 2 green dragons (with polymorph self ability cus im nice) are attempting to set themselves up with a lair & treasure. coucil of worms style 2. A group of big bad evil pc's have opened a portal to the 9 hells and are summoning devils for their army to take over the world. 3. a group of goody goody pc's who have recently died attempting to kill their own bad pc's. all this + some npc's in the backround. makes for an interesting campaign world. Anyway, the pc's know that i use the same rules for them as i do for the npc's
Edymnion 07-14-04, 07:39 PM	I agree. You are asking to play a HIGHLY overpowered VARIANT rule that is specifically spelled out as being unnacceptable for mixed play or in a group with sufficient players. You are lucky he's letting you play the thing at all, because I wouldn't have even considered it. There is no reason you can't play with normal multiclassing and just roleplay it the exact same way as your gestalt idea. The only reason I can see to get upset is that you just wanted a mechanically superior butt kicking machine, and not an actual fleshed out character. And if your main problem with all of this was the first one, why is it suddenly okay now that he let you have a PrC? Sorry man, it just comes across sounding like you just want a munchy character, and your DM wasn't going to let it fly.
fish_heads 07-14-04, 08:11 PM	Originally posted by Edymnion Iit just comes across sounding like you just want a munchy character, and your DM wasn't going to let it fly. Have you ever fought a balor at level 15? Something that is 2 levels or CR ratings above you is exactly TWICE as tough. three levels is a lot to ask, even if it will even out over time. The fact that the two aren't sopposed to mix isn't problem players should have to deal with - all the options should be made at least comparably equal. Also taken into consideration is that only ONE person is playing non- gestalt.