Post/Author/DateTime	Post
warman61 07-16-07, 12:33 AM	Okay, I've got a question to put to the community at large. My DM has always said he wouldn't limit what his players played. And in the past he's been good to his word. But last night I pitched him the concept for my new character (my cleric of tempus having rolled low against a phantasmal killer), and he flat out said NO. More than that, he said if I asked again he'd tell me no on my next idea as well. Now, I'll admit a weretiger monk could be considered powerful if you're only looking at the numbers... But I wanted to play the character for the RP value more than anything. I even took the level adjustment into account, and he still said no. Now, the thing that gets me is that he's already allowed a new player to play a werewolf ranger to be played with no problems. Also, in my game he asked me if he could nerf the Ghaele Eladrin to make it a player race (subject to my approval). I allowed it, giving him the +4 v. evil, some stat adjustments, and miscellaneous other things. I thought not giving him a LA was a bit generous... But now I'm just kinda peeved. I just want to know if I'm justified in my being upset, or if I'm just being overly sensitive.
Caelic 07-16-07, 12:37 AM	Small pet peeve: it's "hypocrisy." Two threads on the first page with the same misspelling is a bit much. That said...have you tried asking him why he objects to that particular character concept?
warman61 07-16-07, 12:40 AM	Yes, his words were "It's too powerful!" I don't see the problem really, there's like a +3 or +4 level adjustment...
Mock26 07-16-07, 12:40 AM	While it is a tiny bit regrettable that the DM went back on his word, you do have to remember that you can't always get what you want.
Rerecros 07-16-07, 12:41 AM	Well the monk were-whatever has certain advantages over the ranger version. No armor to be destroyed, natural armor stacks well with unarmored bonus, bonus to wisdom = another armor bonus, animal movement plus monk movement, unarmed full attack with claws and bite tacked on at no extra cost. It's a powerfull combination, and it's understandable for him not to allow it.
Caelic 07-16-07, 12:43 AM	Yes, his words were "It's too powerful!" I don't see the problem really, there's like a +3 or +4 level adjustment... Well, a +3 level adjustment, and 6 monstrous hit dice, for an ECL of 9. Is that possibly the reason he thinks it's "too powerful?" Is he taking into account the LA, but not the overall ECL?
warman61 07-16-07, 12:47 AM	Well, a +3 level adjustment, and 6 monstrous hit dice, for an ECL of 9. Is that possibly the reason he thinks it's "too powerful?" Is he taking into account the LA, but not the overall ECL? Probably. I can understand some of the worry, don't get me wrong. I just thought it a bit of a double-standard. I'm not likely to bring it up to him again, I was just looking for some outside input.
Salla 07-16-07, 12:56 AM	It's the 'if you ask again, I'm saying 'no' to your next idea' part that really irks me. That may be one of the dumbest things I have EVER heard.
DFoster 07-16-07, 12:58 AM	Yes, his words were "It's too powerful!" I don't see the problem really, there's like a +3 or +4 level adjustment... You might want to consider the possibility you actually made a mistake of some sort, or that a weretiger monk really would be too powerful after all this DM seems to be pretty generous, so there must be something really worrying about this specific combination to set him off. For example perhaps you forgot the Racial Hit dice. As long as you had both the +3 Level adjustment AND the 6 Racial Hit dice (meaning your supposed to be ECL 9 without any character levels) you probably wouldn't be seen as too powerful. The werewolf lacking the Racial Hit dice as well wouldn't seem quite so powerful as it's still a +3 Level adjustment but only has 2 Racial Hit dice (for ECL 5 without character levels). If you only included the Level adjustment I could see how he'd think the Weretiger would be rather powerful (same LA as the Werewolf, but more powerful abilities).
RobbyPants 07-16-07, 10:04 AM	Well, a +3 level adjustment, and 6 monstrous hit dice, for an ECL of 9. Is that possibly the reason he thinks it's "too powerful?" Is he taking into account the LA, but not the overall ECL? You might want to consider the possibility you actually made a mistake of some sort, or that a weretiger monk really would be too powerful after all this DM seems to be pretty generous, so there must be something really worrying about this specific combination to set him off. For example perhaps you forgot the Racial Hit dice. As long as you had both the +3 Level adjustment AND the 6 Racial Hit dice (meaning your supposed to be ECL 9 without any character levels) you probably wouldn't be seen as too powerful. The werewolf lacking the Racial Hit dice as well wouldn't seem quite so powerful as it's still a +3 Level adjustment but only has 2 Racial Hit dice (for ECL 5 without character levels). If you only included the Level adjustment I could see how he'd think the Weretiger would be rather powerful (same LA as the Werewolf, but more powerful abilities). When I read the words monk and overpowered in the same sentance, regarding a non-standard race, this is the first thing I jump to. Does your DM understand how to apply LA and racial hit dice into the ECL? Does he know that a level 1 weretiger monk would be effectively a 10th level character? What level is the rest of the party. Given the loss of 9 monk levels, I can't see how this is overpowered. As a general rule, most monsters are not fully worth their LA (and RHD) once you look at what you lose from the class levels you could have had. I'm wondering if there was some bad ECL math going on...
BW0222 07-16-07, 11:21 AM	warman61, My DM has always said he wouldn't limit what his players played. There is always some point at which a character is overpowered, unplayable, silly, etc. to the point at which it won't be fun. The DMs first job is to ensure everyone has fun. It you want to play a 15hd, +10 LA, dragon... sorry, it won't fly. It is overpowered and will quickly ruin everyone else's fun. If you wish to play a merfolk, well... any reasonable DM can see that after a couple of sessions of being unable to participate, because you can't leave the water, that it won't be fun. Now, I'll admit a weretiger monk could be considered powerful if you're only looking at the numbers... But I wanted to play the character for the RP value more than anything. I even took the level adjustment into account, and he still said no. If you admit it is too powerful by the numbers, then why keep pushing? Would you want him to put in monster which were "too powerful by the numbers"? Kill off the party, ruin everyone's fun, waste everyone's time, etc. It is bad enough that things by the numbers aren't always balanced, but why risk everyone's time which you know it is unbalanced. Why don't you want to play something hopelessly under powered by the numbers. How about a were-squirrel or a were-trout? Now, the thing that gets me is that he's already allowed a new player to play a werewolf ranger to be played with no problems. Maybe there are big problems. Maybe you just don't see them. Maybe the DM has to work extra hard on coming up with reasonable encounters, ways to challenge the player, etc. Maybe the new player just isn't good at utilizing the creatures abilities and the DM knows that you won't have such problems. Maybe he has seen what a druid's tiger animal companion can do and it doesn't even have 15/silver DR, hybrid forms, reach, or intelligence. Or... maybe the DM realizes that a weretiger is vastly overpowered for its LA and 6hd. But now I'm just kinda peeved. I just want to know if I'm justified in my being upset, or if I'm just being overly sensitive. You know it is overpowered. Drop it. Let the DM do his job. As for threatening to ban your next character concept... how many times does he have to say no, before concluding that you are being deliberately obnoxious and disrespectful. You have a ruling. Of course there will be consequences to asking again and again. That one is really just symbolic. You just say may next concept is a Mexican mouse and then move on to your 'real' next character.
Optimized_Commoner 07-16-07, 03:22 PM	Weretigers are actually far too powerful for their ECL, I played one once and damn was it overpowered. Of course a werewolf isn't much better so...
Voran 07-16-07, 07:04 PM	Not to rag on the spelling, but it made me smile. Wierdly, my first thought was "I need to make a NPC government in a way that I can use "Hypocracy" as a pun." Seriously tho, there shouldn't be anything wrong with you asking the GM directly whats up. Point out the decision you think goes against the decision he made for you. Note, do this out of game. Note 2, don't scream. Point it out and ask him what's the difference. Listen to his answer, if its reasonable move along. See if there's some common ground, seek his opinion rather than trying to dictate terms of your character. "I want to play X, what would you think is appropriate?" Open ended questions are better than things that he can give 1 word answers or soundbites to.
DX2052 07-16-07, 09:55 PM	play pun-pun.
Roog 07-16-07, 10:43 PM	A rough suggestion: Tell the GM you "want to avoid problems like this in the future", so it would be helpful for him to explain to you specifically what it is that causes the problem (use the werewolf and Ghaele Eladrin as references). If he has good reasons then this will help him explain them to you non-confrontationally, and if he has been a bit hasty then this kind of comparison/explanation may help him see that. or similarly, follow Voran's advice.
dknight100 07-17-07, 12:13 AM	so much can be solved with communication. I'd be inclined to "uuh what?" if someone said they would play a were-tiger monk. There's a lot we don't know here, but don't need to. Overall, if the conversation went something like you demanding your were-tiger monk, or pestering him for it, then just back down, ask what character you can make. DM's are people too, not your computer or your xbox. Don't forget he's playing a game too, and if he feels like a were-tiger monk is going to tear the game up, its entirely within his rights to say "hey, play something else please" instead of holding up his earlier word. Personally i think dnd stuff is getting too over the top, lots of things tend to be "i want to play a half xyz dragon were-boar necromancer", which, when you put one into a group, or a few into the group, would make the party look like something written by an modern day adolescent terry pratchet on a bad day. So yea, just take a step back from it, respect your dm as he has to do work so you all can play the game, and ask him nicely. If he says no, drop it and work with him to design your next character.
Kojiro James 07-17-07, 12:45 AM	Not to rag on the spelling, but it made me smile. Wierdly, my first thought was "I need to make a NPC government in a way that I can use "Hypocracy" as a pun." A government run by doctors.
Hochiu 07-17-07, 12:53 AM	A government run by doctors. Would there be anyone left alive?
Lethanic 07-17-07, 06:43 AM	A government run by doctors. Perhaps more literally. . 'Hypo' means "low, under, beneath, down, below normal" - so perhaps more literally it would be an "Under-government' - perhaps a normal form ruled by a shadowy group. perhaps a city above ground ruled by its below ground dwarven masters. ..
Kobold_Avenger 07-17-07, 03:56 PM	[QUOTE=BW0222] It you want to play a 15hd, +10 LA, dragon... sorry, it won't fly. It is overpowered and will quickly ruin everyone else's fun. [QUOTE] Do you realize that this is an ECL 25 character? Have you compared that to a 25th Level Wizard? What about cleric or Druid? What isn't overpowered to you?
Pyro_Azer 07-17-07, 04:24 PM	play pun-pun. NO
Prator_the_Legendary 07-17-07, 04:32 PM	Not to rag on the spelling, but it made me smile. Wierdly, my first thought was "I need to make a NPC government in a way that I can use "Hypocracy" as a pun." Make any form of government in which the chief executives are awakened hippopotamus (I THINK that's the correct plural)... Anyways, regarding the actual reason for this thread to be, I think you should ask your DM for a detailed explanation on WHY it's so overpowered, and then possibly report back.
BW0222 07-17-07, 05:03 PM	Kobold_Avenger, Do you realize that this is an ECL 25 character? Have you compared that to a 25th Level Wizard? Yes... I realize that it is APL 25 character. That is the point. If the math says it isn't in the APL range of the party, you don't permit it. No matter how much the player wants to play a huge dragon... he can't play it in a group less than 25th-level. The OP already admitted that the math said that his were-tiger was overpowered to the party. I we can make the assumption that he wasn't taking about his 6hd + 3 LA + monk PC joining a 10th-level party. What about cleric or Druid? What isn't overpowered to you? A cleric and druid are [i]roughly]/i] equal to any other character of equal levels. The druid isn't immortal and the fighter won't be outright slaughtered if the DM scales up the combats a bit to compensate for the druid. As a DM, I can work with a group including a druid, bard, fighter, and wizard of about the same levels. I can mix up settings such that each has a chance to shine. However, when you start going well outside of the APL range of your party, you create massive problems. If you are an APL 10 weretiger monk (6hd + 3 LA + monk 1) and your party is 5th-level or something, sorry... the DM just can't make it work. It would take a frost giant or something to challenge the weretiger and even a 5th-level druid would be killed in the crossfire.
Mock26 07-17-07, 05:30 PM	Not to rag on the spelling, but it made me smile. Wierdly, my first thought was "I need to make a NPC government in a way that I can use "Hypocracy" as a pun." Hm, that is just a tiny bit weird that you are ragging on the spelling. That made me smile. :D
archerpwr 07-17-07, 05:35 PM	A cleric and druid are [i]roughly]/i] equal to any other character of equal levels. The druid isn't immortal and the fighter won't be outright slaughtered if the DM scales up the combats a bit to compensate for the druid. As a DM, I can work with a group including a druid, bard, fighter, and wizard of about the same levels. I can mix up settings such that each has a chance to shine. I kinda disagree with that one. IMO a cleric or druid is the equal of a fighter (the base class) about 4 levels higher (with appropriately higher wealth as well).
ranewen 07-17-07, 09:09 PM	if you're wanting the RP factor into it, you could also suggest making the race into a class, whereas you gradually gain the abilities, even restricted abilities. a second alternative, (if you're playing in eberron, or allowed eberron setting races) is take the shifter race, as whichever animal, then take the weretouched master prestidge class. the only thing on this, is that you'd have to work around the monk multiclassing restriction, but gets you the weretiger without the the LA's
Cartigan 07-17-07, 09:29 PM	Now, I'll admit a weretiger monk could be considered powerful if you're only looking at the numbers... But I wanted to play the character for the RP value more than anything. Sure you did.
Pyro_Azer 07-17-07, 10:45 PM	Sure you did. Is this sarcasm? (if you were actually talking to me i could tell but it is considerably harder to tell when read.)
Cartigan 07-17-07, 10:55 PM	Is this sarcasm? (if you were actually talking to me i could tell but it is considerably harder to tell when read.) Are you warman61?
Pyro_Azer 07-17-07, 10:59 PM	Are you warman61? no
kelvinaw273 07-18-07, 07:10 AM	Well, Monster-characters present their own sets of problems. While they are often not so powerful in stand-up arena fights as straight classes, they often have other abilities such as enhanced senses that can make life very difficult for the DM. Sure a Dragon PC isn't as tough as the party tank, but he's got masses of senses, spells and other abilities that make life very hard - not in terms of the scale of challenge they can face but in terms of limitations on what they can do. When a member of the party has high damage resistance, can perform certain things at will that casters have to prepare, can see invisible objects or deliver an energy attack at will, or use tracking scent, life gets hard. For example, if your adventure is set in a city and is a whodunit adventure, your game can be circumvented by a werewolf player turning wolf, scenting the killer and wither tracking them or pointing them out. It does not help that level adjustments are not properly understood. Savage Species covers this best, even if it is based in 3.0 it is still valid in 3.5.
zelf_gale 07-18-07, 10:46 AM	Level/Animal Hitdice/Special 1 1d8 Low-light vision, Scent 2 2d8 Iron Will 3 +1 Natural Armor, Alternate form (Hybrid form-medium size) 4 3d8 +1 Wisdom 5 4d8 Damage Reduction 5/silver 6 +2 Natural Armor, Alternate form (Hybrid form-large size) 7 5d8 +2 Wisdom 8 6d8 Damage Reduction 10/silver 9 Curse of Lycanthropy, Alternate form (Tiger form)
Braekor Dragonfang 07-18-07, 07:35 PM	From what I read, it boils down to this If your party was ECL 10 or higher: your DM is wrong, and being severely hypocritical, explain this to him in a calm, rational manner, stating your exact reasons for believing he is being unfair (specifically that he's allowing another werewolf PC, that it's within the level of the party, and that ECL = HD + LA so it's not too powerful. As a matter of fact it loses 3 HD, 6 monk levels, and all bonuses that come with those). If he still denies your request, talk to your group mates and see if they will support you, it will be much easier to force your DM's hand if they do, especially the one playing the werewolf PC. If, on the other hand, your party is below ECL 10, then you will have to make due with another character concept. Alternatively, you could suggest the weretiger template class located Here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031212a)
dknight100 07-18-07, 10:57 PM	Regarding the theres another were-PC so its okay line of reasoning. Perhaps there is a decent reason for it. maybe he was bitten, in game. Maybe he rolled it, and the dm approved it. But that doesnt make the dm hypocritical. Maybe they are somewhere without tigers. Would you allow a Weretiger Monk into a setting modeled on say, ancient england? Hell no, they didnt have tigers to bite him or monks to train him. Also, there werewolf has a considerably lower amount of HD, meaning that it could easily be within the power level, whereas the weretiger has larger number of HD. Don't band together on your DM, don't insult him, don't whine. Be reasonable, ask him why not, give your reasons for why you want to play it, perhaps his background (because lets face it "Cos i'd be like RAWR! then snatch their arrows and pounce them!!1!" isn't "roleplay reasons". Roleplay reasons arent even real. Roleplay is what you do, not a racial feature. Having your weretiger won't help roleplay at all, nor will it definitely hinder it, as only you can help or hinder roleplay with anything you make). If you've had a good discussion with no "you're being hypocritical" whining, and he says no, just drop it.
Neutronium_Dragon 07-18-07, 11:42 PM	If the power level is a concern, or the party isn't high enough level for the weretiger's ECL, you might try using the variant lycanthrope rules in SKR's Curse of the Moon: http://www.seankreynolds.com/skrg/products/005COTM/ The template which he presents is geared to low/no LA and uses feats to purchase lycanthrope abilities, which means that the character's power level isn't potentially out of whack and it also works much better for class feature dependent classes such as spellcasters (and monks, who still lose out on a lot if they're saddled with a high ECL). I've used CotM in a couple of games now, and overall it's a lot easier on me as a DM too.
Femme_Undead_Lover 07-19-07, 06:01 PM	You might want to consider the possibility you actually made a mistake of some sort, or that a weretiger monk really would be too powerful after all this DM seems to be pretty generous, so there must be something really worrying about this specific combination to set him off. For example perhaps you forgot the Racial Hit dice. As long as you had both the +3 Level adjustment AND the 6 Racial Hit dice (meaning your supposed to be ECL 9 without any character levels) you probably wouldn't be seen as too powerful. The werewolf lacking the Racial Hit dice as well wouldn't seem quite so powerful as it's still a +3 Level adjustment but only has 2 Racial Hit dice (for ECL 5 without character levels). If you only included the Level adjustment I could see how he'd think the Weretiger would be rather powerful (same LA as the Werewolf, but more powerful abilities). Why don't you ask him if he could make the adjustments to the level you are in and little by litthel develop them? Just like in Savage Species... And about the RP..... being weretiger is part of your background? I like Weretigers... but when I'm in a low campaign I know all I'll get its a catfolk.
Braekor Dragonfang 07-19-07, 10:50 PM	Regarding the theres another were-PC so its okay line of reasoning. Perhaps there is a decent reason for it. maybe he was bitten, in game. Maybe he rolled it, and the dm approved it. But that doesnt make the dm hypocritical. Maybe they are somewhere without tigers. Would you allow a Weretiger Monk into a setting modeled on say, ancient england? Hell no, they didnt have tigers to bite him or monks to train him. Also, there werewolf has a considerably lower amount of HD, meaning that it could easily be within the power level, whereas the weretiger has larger number of HD. Don't band together on your DM, don't insult him, don't whine. Be reasonable, ask him why not, give your reasons for why you want to play it, perhaps his background (because lets face it "Cos i'd be like RAWR! then snatch their arrows and pounce them!!1!" isn't "roleplay reasons". Roleplay reasons arent even real. Roleplay is what you do, not a racial feature. Having your weretiger won't help roleplay at all, nor will it definitely hinder it, as only you can help or hinder roleplay with anything you make). If you've had a good discussion with no "you're being hypocritical" whining, and he says no, just drop it. To be honest, I can't quite tell if that last paragraph is directed entirely at my post, but did I say to insult and whine? No. I said specifically to be calm and rational, and you seem to be jumping to conclusions as to the OP's intent surrounding the character. You have no reason to believe his character choice was based on anything other than the reasons he's stated, so try not to assume otherwise. Finally, at the very least, a DM should give actual reasons for denying any character concept, because it's likely that a player will feel cheated if he or she came up with a character concept they are interested in, only to have it denied by the DM for no obvious reason why. Oh, and as someone who has a great deal of difficulting in advocating for himself, I can tell you that dropping the issue will only make it easier for the DM to repeat the exact same thing in the future. Even if it means stepping on a few toes, it's usually best to get the issue into the open, so that the DM and players can better understand and fix the situation.
dknight100 07-20-07, 12:34 AM	I'm not saying not to take it up, just that players should make sure they don't whine or anything, or band up on the DM. I have not stated intent, however, those are things that can often be done. The OP sounded like it was becoming a wound up issue between him and the DM, and we don't have the DM's side of things here, so he could have easily left out anything that would have supported the DM's view. I don't want to, or need to hear all about it, but saying that he should be careful not to insult and whine, not to get the players together and 'band up'. Yes, at the very least he should give reasons why, this is why i have said, in the bolded text "Be reasonable, ask him why not, give your reasons for why you want to play it" and "If you've had a good discussion with no "you're being hypocritical" whining, and he says no, just drop it." because if you've had a good discussion with him, and he still says no, why turn it into an arguement with your DM (its not like your paying him to run the campaign) to try and get it, so it is far better to drop the issue if he says no after the discussion than to drag it out into a point of contention.
Braekor Dragonfang 07-20-07, 12:47 PM	I'm not saying not to take it up, just that players should make sure they don't whine or anything, or band up on the DM. I have not stated intent, however, those are things that can often be done. The OP sounded like it was becoming a wound up issue between him and the DM, and we don't have the DM's side of things here, so he could have easily left out anything that would have supported the DM's view. I don't want to, or need to hear all about it, but saying that he should be careful not to insult and whine, not to get the players together and 'band up'. Yes, at the very least he should give reasons why, this is why i have said, in the bolded text "Be reasonable, ask him why not, give your reasons for why you want to play it" and "If you've had a good discussion with no "you're being hypocritical" whining, and he says no, just drop it." because if you've had a good discussion with him, and he still says no, why turn it into an arguement with your DM (its not like your paying him to run the campaign) to try and get it, so it is far better to drop the issue if he says no after the discussion than to drag it out into a point of contention. Understandable, however I think I should clear up something. By banding together, I didn't mean "Dogpile on the DM", but that if other players think that the DM is being unfair, they should stick up for the OP and try to work it out as a group. Other than that (which is my fault for not being specific), you make good points, but I still think there's a difference between what seems to be a bullheaded "No because I said so" and "No, sorry, but if you look at it, it just doesn't fit in with the setting/plot/party for reasons A, B, C and D". Issues like this help groups grow if handle correctly (read: rationally), and often if a player understands why their character idea is inappropriate, it keeps these kinds of problems from popping up in the future
stuporhero93 07-20-07, 01:59 PM	THEN DON'T ANSWER FOR HIM!!!!
maharai23 07-20-07, 02:16 PM	From what I read, it boils down to this If your party was ECL 10 or higher: your DM is wrong, and being severely hypocritical, explain this to him in a calm, rational manner, stating your exact reasons for believing he is being unfair (specifically that he's allowing another werewolf PC, that it's within the level of the party, and that ECL = HD + LA so it's not too powerful. As a matter of fact it loses 3 HD, 6 monk levels, and all bonuses that come with those). If he still denies your request, talk to your group mates and see if they will support you, it will be much easier to force your DM's hand if they do, especially the one playing the werewolf PC. Keep in mind, the DM is a player too, and forcing someone into a corner is not a friendly or good way to deal with problems. It'll likely make him not have fun, and no fun for DM, usually means that there's not a game for too long.