Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Spec_Specter 12-22-06, 02:26 AM	most all DMs on my campus tend to not let anyone use anything unless it's from a core book like PHB or (at a streach) PHBII and the Complete Books, and things like newer books (like ToB) or things like Unearthed Arcana or things from Dragon magazines are completly out of the question... it's not that I'm "Oh, I want to use <so and so> and my DM wouldn't let me", it's moreso that most refuse alter things even when current set ups don't make much sence in game for example, like having Knowledge: Planes on a Ranger's skill list rather then Knowledge: Nature for a Planescape campaine it's very frusterating, but there doesn't seem to be much I can do about it, even when it hinders game play... expesally sence most of the time it's more so the DM is just being lazy and doesn't want to keep track of the changes...
Reversefigure4 12-22-06, 03:19 AM	That's a lot more permissive than many DMs get, who only use the straight 3 core books. And fortunately, there is something you can do about it: you can DM a game yourself, and allow anything that's ever been printed into it.
BW0222 12-22-06, 03:58 AM	Spec_Specter, Well... it is the DM's campaign. First, he is the one who needs to be comfortable with this. Some DMs don't like high magic, some don't like Greyhawk, others can't run Ebberon, etc., etc. In the end, making the DM do something they aren't comfortable with is going to give you a poorer result than allowing them to stick with what they are comfortable with. Second, most DMs don't like experimenting. If something blows the game, is unfair, leads to issues, etc. well... it isn't you who will be blamed. Many don't like non-core rules because they know they have not been as thoroughly play-tested. Third, it is more work for them. They need to go over the feat, think of every conceivable issue with the item, watch it, and then deal with the fall out if there is an issue with it. They also have to consider their campaign plan they had to determine if it is going to break something. Also, because it isn't "core", that means there aren't FAQs on it, no one has considered its effects on other aspects of the game, and the DM bears the brunt of rules discussions without backup. Forth, the DM doesn't have access to the material. This makes ruling on it much more difficult. Fifth, it is 'unfair' to other players. Obviously all those players without this highly specific book/magazine never considered this. Sixth, it smacks of power-gaming. Out of all these hundreds of feats, you needed to go to some obscure dragon magazine? Why? Likely because it is more powerful than anything else. Even if the DM allows it, there will be a natural bias and mindset that the feat must be broken. Seventh, it runs the risk of favortism. This player gets 'non-approved' stuff in, why can't I get mine in. Suddenly saying "No", even if the other request is outright stupid, runs the risk of favorism, since this one was allowed. If your character is more powerful that others... the others will naturally blame the DM for allowing the 'broken' feat, even if it isn't broken. Eight, it can be insulting. Presumably the DM has already approved materials, reviewed them, and built a campaign around them. Imagine you invite someone to dinner. They ask what is for dinner and you answer "Spagetti". They say "Yes" and show up. While you are making dinner, they then come in with a new recipe for chicken-based spagetti sauce. Well... you didn't plan on it, it is more work for you, you don't have access to the recipe, no one else is getting to pick the menu, you've never make it before, you don't know if it will go with the red wine or bread sticks, etc., etc. The safest answer is always "Sorry, No." Go experiment with your own dinner.
KurenaiYami 12-22-06, 04:07 AM	Imagine you invite someone to dinner. They ask what is for dinner and you answer "Spagetti". They say "Yes" and show up. While you are making dinner, they then come in with a new recipe for chicken-based spagetti sauce. Well... you didn't plan on it, it is more work for you, you don't have access to the recipe, no one else is getting to pick the menu, you've never make it before, you don't know if it will go with the red wine or bread sticks, etc., etc. The safest answer is always "Sorry, No." Go experiment with your own dinner. Curse you. Now I'm hungry. Anyway, I agree with a good deal of the above. The DM spent a lot of time and effort on the campaign. If it's not your bag, go find a new DM. Or, better yet, stay and see if you can have fun without the massive flexibility.
Tyler Do'Urden 12-22-06, 04:22 AM	most all DMs on my campus tend to not let anyone use anything unless it's from a core book like PHB or (at a streach) PHBII and the Complete Books...That's plenty. Deal with it. ToB is very nice, but if they don't have a chance to read it, they don't have to allow it.
Asciiman 12-22-06, 04:45 AM	What we are all trying to say Spec Spectre is, well... deal with it. The DM is under no obligation to change what he wants in his game and you have to respect that choice.
xaqariah 12-22-06, 09:41 AM	Do you realize how many new books don't cross-refrence eachother, looking for ways to go "splat" and completely unbalance a game? Limiting the books and resources to what the DM has and knows keeps the players from being able to "pull the rug out from under him" and ruining the game. It's ok to want something. It's even ok to ask. ... and it's the DM's job to say "no". I know a DM who doesn't seem to know the word. He has problems balancing out adventures past 10th Level, and doesn't seem to understand why. I, on the other hand, am willing to let my players ask. The answer is not always no, and it's not always yes. I consider each new thing, and let the player "sell" me on it. Roll "Diplomacy". The DM is currently has an "unfriendly" attitude towards change. Offering to allow the DM to borrow the book for a couple of weeks, to look over the rules gives you a circumstance bonus of +5. I can understand why a DM would not allow any new material, though. That's how I ran my 2e games. I hated the extra books, and if you think the power creep in 3.x is bad, just take a look back at some of the stuff that was allowed in 2e. Sure, the kits were fun for the players, but when someone is crushing your very carefully planned encounter, because of some new power or ability you never even heard of, well... it got a little TOO rediculous, for me. I'm still reluctant to buy many of the extras, although I have friends who have. I run with the Core 3.5, Plus MM2, XPH and OA. (I'm currently considering PHB2, but really haven't had a good chance to take a look at it, although I've heard a number of good things. DMG2 is a waste of space, and had to go to 16pt font and double-space with large pictures, just to make enough pages to go to print.) Anyway, the more a DM has to balance against, the more effort he has to put into balance, and the less he gets to spend on making a good story. :D
draco1119 12-22-06, 09:47 AM	I can understand why a DM would not allow any new material, though. That's how I ran my 2e games. I hated the extra books, and if you think the power creep in 3.x is bad, just take a look back at some of the stuff that was allowed in 2e. Sure, the kits were fun for the players, but when someone is crushing your very carefully planned encounter, because of some new power or ability you never even heard of, well... it got a little TOO rediculous, for me. QFT. You ever heard of a 1st level character killing a basilisk single-handedly in 3.X? I actually DID it in 2e. Some things ARE just too powerful. :P
Lanky Ogre Baggy Pants 12-22-06, 09:58 AM	I'm going to play devil's advocate here and offer two other suggestions. 1) Have you thought about DMing youself, or finding another player who shares your opinion on new books to DM. 2) You mentioned DMs, plural, which makes things both easier and harder. Depending on how much they are a group you may have to take to all of the at the same time or you may be able to talk to them individually. I would suggest that you try to talk to one of them and ask why they do not allow anything outside of the core. There are many games that run perfectly fine within core, but then there are also many games that work slightly better with other stuff. Its all a matter of opinion. You may find that he(they) have had bad experiences in the past, or that they don't own the new books, or something else. I also think the DM owes some explanation to players when they disallow things. Even if that explanation is along the lines of "I don't have the time to read every optional book to make sure its balanced." Thats at least an explanation. Dms should also be willing to listen to players and cooperate. This is a social game, and in general you are playing with friends. If you are playing with people who you can't get along with, are you really having that much fun? So many threads would be prevented if the people in question would just talk to eachother first.
High Octane 12-22-06, 11:22 AM	most all DMs on my campus tend to not let anyone use anything unless it's from a core book like PHB or (at a streach) PHBII and the Complete Books, and things like newer books (like ToB) or things like Unearthed Arcana or things from Dragon magazines are completly out of the question... Thats how I DM. Are you saying theres a problem with it?
Sir_Jack_Sparrow 12-22-06, 12:08 PM	The campaign i am currently in was started with the optimistic goal of if its printed in an official book its allowed.... when the scion in the group would start hitting the BBEG with a save or die then using divine influence to make him fail that save, yeah we realized how bad thigns were. the extra books really are a ton of work for a DM, however letting the players make whatever kind of character they want is also very rewarding for the player.
trapspringer 12-22-06, 04:20 PM	ToB is really out there, flavor-wise. If you aren't running a swash-buckling adventure or a kung-fu drama, it's really hard to slide into a standard game because it breaks a lot of the D&D conventions that make 3.5 the game we know and love. UA says on the first two pages that the DM doesn't have to allow anything it it. If you really want to change minds, you can run your own game and show them how all that stuff works in perfect harmony.
YamiSouru 12-22-06, 08:30 PM	The dms are both reasonable and unreasonable. For example. Lets say a player, lets call him zack, wants to play a wizard who has completely and totally devoted himself to the art of necromancy and has plans for the charactor to eventually become a lich and he think that a normal specialist wizard isnt as focused on necromancy as he veiws the charactor as. Now zack has recently obtained Heroes of Horror and found the dread necromancer class and feels it is a perfect fit for the charactor he wants, focused purely on necromancy and will eventually become a lich. If the dm doesnt allow this it can be seen as unreasonable as the player has a legitimate reason to use the class, it fits the charactor. On the other hand if Zack decided to use the class simply because he knew the campaign would be focusing on undead and he would have plunty of oppertunitys to form a small army of undead then the dm is being reasonable.
Tenebrous_Sage 12-22-06, 08:58 PM	The dms are both reasonable and unreasonable. For example. Lets say a player, lets call him zack, wants to play a wizard who has completely and totally devoted himself to the art of necromancy and has plans for the charactor to eventually become a lich and he think that a normal specialist wizard isnt as focused on necromancy as he veiws the charactor as. Now zack has recently obtained Heroes of Horror and found the dread necromancer class and feels it is a perfect fit for the charactor he wants, focused purely on necromancy and will eventually become a lich. If the dm doesnt allow this it can be seen as unreasonable as the player has a legitimate reason to use the class, it fits the charactor. On the other hand if Zack decided to use the class simply because he knew the campaign would be focusing on undead and he would have plunty of oppertunitys to form a small army of undead then the dm is being reasonable.No, just no. If it's the first case Zack will just find some other (possibly less optimal) way to represent his character concept. In the second case he will just play another character that focuses on creating and controlling undead (cleric with some PrCs most likely) that is capable of doing the same thing in different (possibly better) ways. Either way the end result is the DM limiting the Player's options.
Spec_Specter 12-22-06, 10:25 PM	I had a feeling I might not have been very clear ;>.> I acully couldn't care less about about using obsure books to try to get more powerful, I'm more concern, how should I say this, moreso about the flaver that these things bring... stuff that acually helps the story and flow of gameplay and makes things make more sence most of the stuff I try to bring up is quite the oposate of power-gameing as I just want to try somethings because I find the consept enjoyable or intresting, and I always have stuff on hand if I try to use it (in book form, not scans or copys) but more often I get shot down because my sugestions are 'weak' and that I shouldn't care about anysort of charicter development and just focus on becoming as powerful as my particualler class alows... I could understand a DM not wanting his players to use something that could disrupt his game or make things unbalenced, but shouldn't he let his players be charicters instead of trying to force them to be walking archtypes of their player class? I also realize this is pretty much a "deal with it" issue, I even said that I figured there wasnt' anything I could do about it. I didn't make this topic as a means to find ways to convice my DM to use something he doesn't want to, I just wanted to make a topic just to talk about it 9_9 I acually really wish I could just start DMing, but I don't think I'm at that point to run my own campain yet :\
Sir_Jack_Sparrow 12-22-06, 10:29 PM	Well really flavor is all in how you RP, it has nothing to do with what the DM is allowing as far as material goes. if your DM says no paladins, or maybe being more realistic, no evil paladins, but it is an evil game and you really wan tto play an evil paladin, take levels of fighter and cleric, not ideal, but then you can roleplay an evil paladin to your hearts content. you wont be as good as a paladin, but you can put all the flavor into it that you want.
EscherEnigma 12-23-06, 06:03 AM	I acually really wish I could just start DMing, but I don't think I'm at that point to run my own campain yet :\ Having been in that spot, I have to say the key is to either start small or just jump in feet first. You mentioned that you're at a college campus. Is there a gaming club that you could recruit some players from? If you don't think you're ready for a campaign, starting off with a one night adventure is good practice. I know that the gaming club at my college regularly has nights where someone runs one night adventures (from varying systems, but D&D is the most common). The campaign that I'm currently in got started that way (basically, the DM approached several of us after a one-nighter to see if we were interested in a campaign) Anyway you look at it, the best way to learn to be a DM is to DM, and the best way to get ultimate flexibility in whats allowed and whats not is to DM.
dayrat 12-23-06, 10:35 AM	most all DMs on my campus tend to not let anyone use anything unless it's from a core book like PHB or (at a streach) PHBII and the Complete Books, and things like newer books (like ToB) or things like Unearthed Arcana or things from Dragon magazines are completly out of the question... it's not that I'm "Oh, I want to use <so and so> and my DM wouldn't let me", it's moreso that most refuse alter things even when current set ups don't make much sence in game for example, like having Knowledge: Planes on a Ranger's skill list rather then Knowledge: Nature for a Planescape campaine it's very frusterating, but there doesn't seem to be much I can do about it, even when it hinders game play... expesally sence most of the time it's more so the DM is just being lazy and doesn't want to keep track of the changes... You Dm(S) sounds like he allows plenty.
kelvinaw273 12-23-06, 12:43 PM	I concur, your DMs allow plenty. The problem is perception of choice: you see that there are limits on classes and skills, and translate this as limits on the character. The character is not limited by these things, save in your imagination. The DM will not allow a Ninja? Run a Rogue/Monk instead. He says no Samurai? Use a katana-wielding fighter with a code of honour. Use imagination, is what I recomend, don't rely on splat-books to do your dreaming for you!
albinomonkeyking 12-23-06, 01:28 PM	Well, I, unlike many of the opinions presented, believe prestige classes can be a great way to help mold a character. Sometimes you have an idea that fits perfectly[I] with a prestige class, concept, abilities, the whole shabang and ya know, it can be a very fulfilling experience to want something and see it right in front of you. Yes I agree that most concepts (if not all, I wouldn't know, I haven't tried every concept) can probably be done using just core. Obviously, some classes, prestige or not, will offer things at a much easier rate. I wanted to make a knight character that could protect a girl he was traveling with. The knight class offers shield ally, which fit 100% with what I wanted, it was also a knight, it also had a code of conduct, it was also about intimidating your opponent, all of which fit amazingly. It [I]was the character I wanted. Alternatively, I could have made a fighter (I didn't want him to have any magic) who specialized in shield feats, bought him the (ring?) of shield other, given him lots of ranks in intimidate, take feats such as ki shout, etc. Someone could probably make him better, I am just saying (Please, we don't need another thread about who is right and why core only works, I am simply trying to empathize with our OP) that obviously non-core books can be an asset. Perhaps try again to bring this up to one of the DM's. Maybe they aren't all that inflexible. Looking at a book and a class (not ToB or psionics that is) and saying 'yes' or 'no' isn't that hard, although some might be like the DM's here who simply don't want the added effort. I dunno, be nice, be civil, and see if you and a DM can come to a compromise.
dayrat 12-23-06, 06:02 PM	Well, I, unlike many of the opinions presented, believe prestige classes can be a great way to help mold a character. Sometimes you have an idea that fits perfectly[I] with a prestige class, concept, abilities, the whole shabang and ya know, it can be a very fulfilling experience to want something and see it right in front of you. Yes I agree that most concepts (if not all, I wouldn't know, I haven't tried every concept) can probably be done using just core. Obviously, some classes, prestige or not, will offer things at a much easier rate. I wanted to make a knight character that could protect a girl he was traveling with. The knight class offers shield ally, which fit 100% with what I wanted, it was also a knight, it also had a code of conduct, it was also about intimidating your opponent, all of which fit amazingly. It [I]was the character I wanted. Alternatively, I could have made a fighter (I didn't want him to have any magic) who specialized in shield feats, bought him the (ring?) of shield other, given him lots of ranks in intimidate, take feats such as ki shout, etc. Someone could probably make him better, I am just saying (Please, we don't need another thread about who is right and why core only works, I am simply trying to empathize with our OP) that obviously non-core books can be an asset. Perhaps try again to bring this up to one of the DM's. Maybe they aren't all that inflexible. Looking at a book and a class (not ToB or psionics that is) and saying 'yes' or 'no' isn't that hard, although some might be like the DM's here who simply don't want the added effort. I dunno, be nice, be civil, and see if you and a DM can come to a compromise. looks like his dm is allowing prestige classes from many differen tbooks though.
Spec_Specter 12-23-06, 11:12 PM	looks like his dm is allowing prestige classes from many differen tbooks though. Acually most don't allow prestige class at all my range was just a geunral range, but I aparently made it to broad, as it's a range from all my DMs put togeather, not each individually... Like I said before, most of my DMs usually have the mindset of 'just pick a class and stay with it' as anything else is 'weaker'... as for my campus gaming club, that's were I've met most of these DMs in the first place I even helped run it for a while, but as of now I would rather not go back to it, tis a horrid place <.<;;
Terraneaux 12-24-06, 05:07 AM	Acually most don't allow prestige class at all That is so not true... just because you don't doesn't mean that the rest of us haven't jumped on the 3.x bandwagon.
Witch 12-24-06, 05:14 AM	He says most of his DMs. Try to look at the context, not just at a sentence.
Nani? 12-24-06, 09:40 AM	First, I toward Core as a DM. Reasons, I've had too many players who think they can't make a Rogue a "Ninja" or a fighter a "samurai" and who look at a me with dull incomprehension when I suggest it. I'm also sick of WOTC coming out with lame "new classes" for no reason but take our hard earned $$$$. I do use a lot of Unearthed Arcana, particularly the class varients. I also use a Varient half elf and Sorcerer. My suggestion, with a conservative DM, start small. For example, ask if you can switch out Bluff with Intimidate on the fighter skill list to better fit your "swashbuckler" character concept. Once they see you are not going to abuse them, they will open up and be more willing to work with you say, on that necromancer varient in Unearthed Arcana. On the other hand, if you've established yourself as a whiny brat who gets irritated when he can't play his cool, overpowered, fighter/monk/paliden/prestige class of the month, I suggest you look in the mirror for the source of your problem. All the Best Nani?