Post/Author/DateTime	Post
BladeBoy 05-24-06, 09:15 AM	I'll start with an example. He throws OVER 900 zombies at me (party is faaaar away), so I start fighting (every round he rolls to see how many more rise up on a d100) I kill off about 50 of them (3 per round at level 7 without great cleave). Then he rolls a d1000. Suddenly all the rest fall down, and a "Zombie Umber Hulk" rises. I beat it (it had 150hp..) and then all 900 rise again! and then 12 more Umber Hulk Zombies rise so i'm like "I'm gonna run" So i provoke a few AoOs, down a potion, and i get into the clear. Well, then FORTY Umber Hulk Zombies come from under the ground and attack, with all those behind me. So I resign myself to die. He says i pass out, and when i wake up, the zombies are gone. A hermit takes me, and shackles me. when the party rescues me. and i say i want to kill the hermit, for imprisioning me, and the rogue says no, (a NPC) so i say i wanna search the place at least, and he rogue forces me out. my other ally (PC) refuses to help me. I ask the DM about Xp, and he says yeah, for one sorc, cause alll those zombies were an illusion. I got no rolled will save, or anything. No chance to run, nothing. So we leave, go back to town, and the rogue goes to bed. I say i leave the tavern and wander outside town. [05:54] * Jaar goes outside and wanders around outside town [05:54] <Haven> you walk out of the tavern to go do that, and a meaty hand grabs your arm. "WHEAH YEAH GEOIN!??" [05:55] <Jaar> "wha?" [05:56] <Haven> the music coming from the bard in the corner stops, and the bouncer guy tosses you back to the table roughly. "SIDDOHN! Weh ainh done witchooh yeh." [05:56] <Jaar> "What the hell do you want?" [05:57] <Haven> one by one, all of the men (about forty seven) rise from the tables and turn to face yours. Bouncer: "Juehs gottah mehsahag frahm Stehvahn, 'e sah's yeh stihnk." [05:58] * Cian raises an eyebrow. [05:58] <Jaar> "Speak proper common, or speak something else, but i don't know what you're saying" [05:58] <Cian> "I believe they just said you stink." [05:58] <Haven> another guy: "YEH! 'E Sah's YEAH BOH stahnk!" [05:59] <Haven> ^BOHT (both) [05:59] <Cian> "We both stink." [05:59] <Jaar> "So do YOU buddy, try taking a bath" [05:59] <Haven> He draws a mace, and all the other men draw them as well [05:59] <Haven> well [05:59] <Haven> random weapons [06:00] <Jaar> roll d20+7 [06:00] <Dicebot> 10,1Jaar rolled :0,1 d20+7 --> 4,1[ 1d20=16 ]4,1{23} [06:00] <Haven> Vic? [06:01] <Cian> roll d20+7 [06:01] <Dicebot> 10,1Cian rolled :0,1 d20+7 --> 4,1[ 1d20=8 ]4,1{15} [06:02] * Cian will kill Jaar the next time he wants to go and randomly kill a hermit after midnight. [06:02] <Haven> roll d20+3 [06:02] <Dicebot> 10,1Haven rolled :0,1 d20+3 --> 4,1[ 1d20=10 ]4,1{13} [06:02] <Haven> you two get to go first [06:02] <Cian> yay [06:02] <Cian> considering I can attack one drunk. [06:02] <Jaar> roll d20+13 to kill the 1st hick [06:02] <Dicebot> 10,1Jaar rolled :0,1 d20+13 11,1to kill the 1st hick --> 4,1[ 1d20=20 ]4,1{33} [06:03] <Jaar> roll d8+11*2 [06:03] <Cian> they're not hicks. :P [06:03] <Dicebot> 10,1Jaar rolled :0,1 d8+11*2 --> 4,1[ 1d8=3 ]4,1{25} [06:03] <Jaar> fine, drunk idiots [06:03] <Cian> thank you. [06:03] <Jaar> dead? [06:04] <Haven> that guy is, yes [06:04] <Jaar> roll d20+13 to kill the 2nd drunk who attacked him first [06:04] <Dicebot> 10,1Jaar rolled :0,1 d20+13 11,1to kill the 2nd drunk who attacked him first --> 4,1[ 1d20=5 ]4,1{18} [06:04] <Haven> actually [06:04] <Haven> you won ini [06:04] <Haven> you attacked them first. [06:04] <Haven> just pointing out [06:04] <Jaar> they raised weapons, and strongarmed me [06:04] <Jaar> it's self defense [06:04] <Haven> lol [06:04] <Cian> lol [06:04] <Haven> it's not self defense when they weren't attacking you [06:04] <Jaar> did 18 hit? [06:05] <Cian> do drunks wear armor? [06:05] <Jaar> no? [06:05] <Haven> you hit [06:05] <Jaar> roll d8+11 [06:05] <Dicebot> 10,1Jaar rolled :0,1 d8+11 --> 4,1[ 1d8=8 ]4,1{19} [06:05] <Haven> killed that guy too [06:05] <Jaar> roll d20+8 [06:05] <Dicebot> 10,1Jaar rolled :0,1 d20+8 --> 4,1[ 1d20=1 ]4,1{9} [06:05] <Jaar> ah well [06:05] <Jaar> cian's up [06:06] <Jaar> don't forget cian, they're all flat footed until their turn [06:06] <Cian> lol [06:07] * Cian gets up and puts his windwall up, holds his turn. [06:07] <Jaar> .. [06:07] <Cian> I'm lawful good, I can't justify being a Jaarhead. [06:07] <Jaar> fine [06:08] <Jaar> don't back up an ally. [06:08] <Cian> They still haven't attacked you [06:08] <Cian> you just cut down two guys. [06:08] <Jaar> they drew 47 weapons on me [06:08] <Cian> lol [06:08] <Jaar> for wanting to leave the bar [06:08] <Jaar> that's hostile inteny [06:08] <Cian> not really. [06:08] <Jaar> intent* [06:08] <Haven> not really [06:08] <Jaar> .. [06:08] <Jaar> how is it not? [06:08] <Cian> they grabbed you for smelling like evil. [06:09] <Haven> that's like saying that a security guard taking out his gun when he hears a prowler is evil [06:09] <Haven> to them, you're evil [06:09] <Haven> and you just proved it [06:09] <Jaar> .. [06:09] <Haven> by killing two of them when they told you to stay [06:09] <Jaar> they cant hold me by my 'smell' [06:10] <Haven> technically, in a D&D world, you don't know the law up here. [06:10] <Jaar> fine [06:10] <Jaar> just go [06:11] <Haven> The men start to charge forward upon seeing you cut down two of their comrades, and a booming voice shouts into the din. "KNOCK IT OFF!" [06:12] * Cian takes a step back and shields himself with his bo [06:13] <Haven> A tall, broad-shouldered black guy stands glaring at everyone. "YOU ALL SIDDOWN! YOU! YOU! YOU! YOU! YOU! AND... YOU!" *points at a different guy with each 'you'* "We'll take 'em in and string 'em up. No reason to interrupt a good dinner for everyone." what the hell? this is complete railroading, and just being plain unfair. Am I wrong? or is my DM being a jerk?
Radijs 05-24-06, 09:46 AM	I'm not sure about the zombies, I don't know why he had that many appear. It could have been part of a larger event. The IRC log, looks like a bar brawl gone south. Some drunks insult you and muscle you a bit. When they all drew their weapons I would have gotten pretty nervous too. Your party did throw the first punch but I don't see something thats so terrible that you need to say that your DM's a jerk. Maybe you could say what you find unfair exaclty?
CaviosDaryll 05-24-06, 10:02 AM	I'm not sure about the zombies, I don't know why he had that many appear. It could have been part of a larger event. The IRC log, looks like a bar brawl gone south. Some drunks insult you and muscle you a bit. When they all drew their weapons I would have gotten pretty nervous too. Your party did throw the first punch but I don't see something thats so terrible that you need to say that your DM's a jerk. Maybe you could say what you find unfair exaclty? GHKT! *Dies* Are you honestly serious? What ISN'T unfair about that situation? His DM sent over 900 zombies after him, and then sent 50 of those super zombies after him. And then next, when he is doing such a SIMPLE ACT as leaving a bar, the DM decides he wants a whole bunch of guys to try and kill him. But then, SUDDENLY, when he starts winning he makes up an excuse to stop the fight. It sounds like to me the DM is a huge jerk. If I were you, I would leave the party as soon as possible... Why stay in a place where people intentionally ruin your fun? Man, unless he is the only DM in a 20 mile radius, leave immediately. If he is, then see if you can join a group online. And once you do, LEAVE.
celtredleg 05-24-06, 10:39 AM	Unless there is more to the story, leave. Why put up with crap like that. If there was no point to the dream fight, why waste the time doing it? I would have at least let you have the XP. I do use dreams once in a while, but the XP counts. As for the bar, not sure what the whole point of that was. Talk to him first and see if this is the tone of the game, and be ready to walk.
High Octane 05-24-06, 10:48 AM	Unless there is more to the story, leave. That.
Ichor Spellka 05-24-06, 11:02 AM	Really, I'd say the DM has it out for you. First, the zombies. If it really was an illusion, you would've gotten saves every time you went to hit one of them, or one of them hit you. Next, taking you captive instead of killing you. This seems to me that the DM is trying to save face, and make it look like he's not trying to attack you personally. By making you unconscious and a prisoner, he makes the prior event seem less hostile. Also, that way, he got to drive your frustration up by further sticking it to your character. After that at the bar, it's a pure set-up. Sure, you could've used non-lethal, but when 48 people draw maces (which, incidentally, are rather leathal weapons), for trying to leave the bar, and a bunch of violent drunks are talking about how they're not done with you yet, I'd say that would seem pretty life or death. From the sounds of things, the other player is in on it, or is otherwise a DM lackey, as he put up a token defense, rather than being concerned by the 47 odd men with weapons drawn ready to attack him. Sure, the LG excuse works a bit, but it's still just an excuse. He could've tried to talk people down. Instead, he backed himself into a corner. Oh, and assumed you were going to go kill someone. It might've been an honest one, but he seems to be more in line with the DM in this game. The only thing you could've really done differently would have been to hold off your attack until the first person took a swing, or done non-lethal damage. The bouncer preventing you from leaving isn't something you should kill over, but it's understandable considering how frustrated you probably were by the end of the night. If this was an isolated incident, that's fine. If it was for plot points, that can work too, provided the reward is nice. Was it railroading? Just a bit, yeah. Especially at the start. If this seems to be a trend, then I would suggest leaving.
Callahan 05-24-06, 11:35 AM	when a hundred zombies appear it means that the DM may not like you. when the thousand zombies appear it usualy means that the DM's intention is that you run away like any sane person would. when a few thousands zombies and some massive undead beasts apear and you still haven't ran away, it means you deserved it.
Bruunwald 05-24-06, 12:06 PM	Obi-Wan wonders: "Who is the more foolish, the fool or the fool who follows him?" I think you're both playing a gonzo game I would never have anything to do with. The only thing more out-of-control than the zombie army he was throwing at you, was your supernatural ability to demolish so many of them single-handedly before you had to run. I hate to say it, but when you team up with ridiculous players for a ridiculous campaign, you get all kinds of ridiculous results. What did you expect from this guy?
DigitalMage 05-24-06, 12:12 PM	when a hundred zombies appear it means that the DM may not like you. when the thousand zombies appear it usualy means that the DM's intention is that you run away like any sane person would. when a few thousands zombies and some massive undead beasts apear and you still haven't ran away, it means you deserved it. He did try to run away, stating he risked a few AoO, drank a potion and got into the clear.
Gargs454 05-24-06, 02:01 PM	I'll play Devil's Advocate here for a minute: It sounds as though the DM may have been trying to set up a plot device (albeit, doing it rather poorly). Certainly, having your character pass out and being taken "captive" seems to suggest this rather than having the sorc simply kill you. Next, your first instinct (at least as you described it here) was to immediately try to kill the hermit that captured you. It could well have been that the hermit actually saved you from the sorc, but seeing as how powerful you appeared to be, he restrained you initially to be safe. Ironically, it seems he may have been correct to do so. All in all, its entirely possible that the DM was hoping to set up the encounter with the hermit as a plot device, i.e. giving you an important NPC whom you can meet. Next, to the bar. Obviously, I think it is understandable that you would feel more than a little threatened when 47 maces are drawn. Particularly since a mace isn't exactly a standard issue item for most NPC's in a tavern. At the same time though, you did throw the first punch. You were not yet acting in self-defense. You were instead, making a preemptive strike. Again its entirely possible that the DM was planning to set up a meet with an NPC that he believed was important to the story. That being said, he should ordinarily allow you to try to talk your way out of the bar. The problem is, you didn't really try to talk your way out of the bar. Instead, you started killing people. Generally, its a bad idea to kill people in public Now, approaching from a player's point of view. It does seem to smell at least a little bit like railroading. It's hard to say for sure though, since you did not exactly try to get out of the bar fight. Instead you immediately went for the fight. The zombie encounter though sounds as if the DM was playing a little fast and loose with the rules. As stated, you should have been given saves to detect the illusions as you were striking them. Maybe the DM was rolling them in secret (so as to avoid a rather obvious tip off), but he probably wasn't. It sounds as though he really wanted to set up the meet with the hermit. My suggestion: Talk to your DM and explain your concerns to him. Let him know that you felt as though you were being railroaded and/or singled-out. See what he has to say. Additionally, remember that there are many ways to approach an encounter and that fighting is often not the best way to approach it.
Duvanok 05-24-06, 02:32 PM	Well, I don't know if he is a jerk, but he certainly is a bad DM. Sounds like he had a story set up and he wasn't going to stray from it no matter what the players said or did. You were just along for the ride on the DM express. Kinda sucks doesn't it? One thing that you could take from this is when and if this happens again, quit the group.
Radijs 05-24-06, 02:44 PM	I'll play Devil's Advocate here for a minute: It sounds as though the DM may have been trying to set up a plot device (albeit, doing it rather poorly). Certainly, having your character pass out and being taken "captive" seems to suggest this rather than having the sorc simply kill you. Next, your first instinct (at least as you described it here) was to immediately try to kill the hermit that captured you. It could well have been that the hermit actually saved you from the sorc, but seeing as how powerful you appeared to be, he restrained you initially to be safe. Ironically, it seems he may have been correct to do so. All in all, its entirely possible that the DM was hoping to set up the encounter with the hermit as a plot device, i.e. giving you an important NPC whom you can meet. Next, to the bar. Obviously, I think it is understandable that you would feel more than a little threatened when 47 maces are drawn. Particularly since a mace isn't exactly a standard issue item for most NPC's in a tavern. At the same time though, you did throw the first punch. You were not yet acting in self-defense. You were instead, making a preemptive strike. Again its entirely possible that the DM was planning to set up a meet with an NPC that he believed was important to the story. That being said, he should ordinarily allow you to try to talk your way out of the bar. The problem is, you didn't really try to talk your way out of the bar. Instead, you started killing people. Generally, its a bad idea to kill people in public Now, approaching from a player's point of view. It does seem to smell at least a little bit like railroading. It's hard to say for sure though, since you did not exactly try to get out of the bar fight. Instead you immediately went for the fight. The zombie encounter though sounds as if the DM was playing a little fast and loose with the rules. As stated, you should have been given saves to detect the illusions as you were striking them. Maybe the DM was rolling them in secret (so as to avoid a rather obvious tip off), but he probably wasn't. It sounds as though he really wanted to set up the meet with the hermit. My suggestion: Talk to your DM and explain your concerns to him. Let him know that you felt as though you were being railroaded and/or singled-out. See what he has to say. Additionally, remember that there are many ways to approach an encounter and that fighting is often not the best way to approach it. Here here! That sums it all up quite nicely! Have a cookie for this exellent post :cookie:
kelvinaw273 05-24-06, 04:45 PM	Well, either you are an incredibly dense player, or the DM is strong-arming you. Given that you actually tried to fight over 900 zombies, I would have to say that running away was probably your best option! The incident in the tavern was ither you being strong-armed again, or your DM was sinking to your intellectual level to try to show you that no, you could not go and kill the person who had annoyed you. Well, only you know the answers to this really, but if you cannot get on with your DM to this extent maybe you shoudl quit.
STAT 05-24-06, 05:42 PM	Shame on anyone defending this stupidity. Gee, I wonder why all those drunks pulled out their maces? Hmm, I wonder what that orc who's charging at me with his battle axe is trying to do? Can you guess what those two situations have in common? Someone/somebody is about to try and kill you. It damn well is self defence and I don't care who technically went first in the initiative order. They pulled their weapons first and that's what initiated combat, thus starting the fight.
BladeBoy 05-24-06, 05:46 PM	I'll play Devil's Advocate here for a minute: It sounds as though the DM may have been trying to set up a plot device (albeit, doing it rather poorly). Certainly, having your character pass out and being taken "captive" seems to suggest this rather than having the sorc simply kill you. Next, your first instinct (at least as you described it here) was to immediately try to kill the hermit that captured you. It could well have been that the hermit actually saved you from the sorc, but seeing as how powerful you appeared to be, he restrained you initially to be safe. Ironically, it seems he may have been correct to do so. All in all, its entirely possible that the DM was hoping to set up the encounter with the hermit as a plot device, i.e. giving you an important NPC whom you can meet. . One thing about that (it was a thought of mine). He was said to have taken many travelers hostage and killed them with his pet tiger. I should know, the tiger took a swipe at me from it's cage. He was talking about my "satanic stink" and how I needed to die. When my party (the other PC is the only one who did anything) he slammed the hermit against a wall with wind, and knocked him out. Then we were forced to leave and go back to town. Also, I never saw a sorc the entire time either. I was alone, then tons of undead. At with my at level 7, they needed to crit to hit me, and quite frankly, they rolled very badly until after the super zombie, then they were rolling crits left and right. He would have actually rolled 900 attacks against me, but i got him to admit that that many couldn't possibly reach me. of course he had 44 at once still attacking..
Engilbrand 05-24-06, 06:33 PM	It's not that he's a jerk. He's an idiot. There's a difference. Nobody, and I mean NOBODY, in this game can create that many zombies. Period. Hundreds? Sure. Perfect control over all of them? No. And something tells me that there are a lot of powerful images going on there if they weren't real. And you kept taking damage... Maybe an an epic level Sorceror. That COULD do it. Maybe. Any way that it happens, it wasn't appropriate. And you shouldn't have let the rogue stop you. The hermit locked you up and was known to kill people. When your party came, they should have killed him. Even playing a good character, I know I would have. The bar. Rediculous. You go to leave the bar, but you get stopped. Well, ok. Maybe. The entire bar looks at you and tells you they aren't done with you because you stink of evil? WTF?! You were upstairs or wherever, then walked through the main room and outside. Nobody had any reason to touch you. When everyone pulls weapons, I know I would have been ready to fight. Especially if the DM has rolled for initiative. That tells me "There's a fight!" And then the big boss stands up and uses the "BOOMING"-God voice. Scary... That's when you tell them that you're leaving and they can try to stop you. Then you kill every one of them. The only reason everyone kept smelling evil on you is because it came from themselves. It's an evil town in an evil campaign world run by a stupid DM.
Gargs454 05-24-06, 07:53 PM	Shame on anyone defending this stupidity. Gee, I wonder why all those drunks pulled out their maces? Hmm, I wonder what that orc who's charging at me with his battle axe is trying to do? Can you guess what those two situations have in common? Someone/somebody is about to try and kill you. It damn well is self defence and I don't care who technically went first in the initiative order. They pulled their weapons first and that's what initiated combat, thus starting the fight. So what you're saying is that every time a police officer pulls his or her sidearm out they are trying to kill somebody? Additionally, is it impossible for somebody to brandish a weapon merely as a warning without intending to attack you? In fact, by your logic, a PC would always be in the right to attack an NPC monk since a monk's weapons are always "brandished" unless he is securely bound. There's a big difference between somebody merely pulling a weapon and an orc charging at you with his weapon ready to bear. One thing about that (it was a thought of mine). He was said to have taken many travelers hostage and killed them with his pet tiger. I should know, the tiger took a swipe at me from it's cage. He was talking about my "satanic stink" and how I needed to die. When my party (the other PC is the only one who did anything) he slammed the hermit against a wall with wind, and knocked him out. Then we were forced to leave and go back to town. Also, I never saw a sorc the entire time either. I was alone, then tons of undead. At with my at level 7, they needed to crit to hit me, and quite frankly, they rolled very badly until after the super zombie, then they were rolling crits left and right. He would have actually rolled 900 attacks against me, but i got him to admit that that many couldn't possibly reach me. of course he had 44 at once still attacking.. Well, as I tried to suggest (albeit perhaps a bit poorly) I do think that your DM was most likely playing a little fast and loose with the rules in the zombie encounter. However, you wouldn't have seen the sorc if he was invisible, or had shapechanged somehow, etc. As for the hermit, the added information that you provided would tend to suggest that it would be appropriate to bring him to justice in that case. Assuming that his actions are not being sanctioned by the local authority, he would be an outlaw. That being said, if he had been knocked unconscious, other PC's would be right to demand a non-violent solution, particularly a LG character could see killing an unconscious individual as being just as bad as the hermit. With regard to the bar, while you may well be correct in that the DM was railroading, and there certainly is plenty to suggest that (no grapple check for instance), the mere fact that they brandished their weapons does not mean that their intent was to kill you. You would have been better to try to talk your way out of that situation first. Your best bet is still to talk to your DM and express your concerns. Particularly, let him know that you feel like you were being targetted and that you were being railroaded. Ask him what you could have done differently to avoid the confrontations. It could be as simple as your DM wanting to bring more RP into the game, or it couild just be that your DM is learning. Finally of course, its always possible that you just have a flat out bad DM. Asking him how you could have avoided the confrontation (particularly in the tavern) will be a good test. If he says that you had no choice at that point because "you smelled evil" and were going to be arrested anyway, then that will tell you a lot. Obviously then, the DM had a set plan of action and was not going to deviate from it.
Wonton2006 05-24-06, 08:08 PM	Wow. Some people have very crappy DMs. Although my DM is inexperienced, he is at least fair, generous, and not there to screw the party over! Some DMs seem to think that it's them VS the party, and that their goal is to get them killed... Those DMs have some issues to work out, IMO.
Pajaul 05-24-06, 08:26 PM	So what you're saying is that every time a police officer pulls his or her sidearm out they are trying to kill somebody? I dunno, I don't think I've even been in a bar full of police officers who all drew their guns on me because I smelled like a criminal. Additionally, is it impossible for somebody to brandish a weapon merely as a warning without intending to attack you? Those cops you mentioned would shoot you if you pull a gun out. If you pull a knife on someone in the real world, what do you expect them to do? Comment on it's shine? Someone doesn't pull a knife on you just to pull out a knife. Unless they were your friend and wanted to show you a weapon. But I hardly think an ENTIRE BAR of people who said he 'smelled evil' were friendly. However, your point is still valid. It IS possible to pull out a weapon without being threatening, but this isn't the case. In fact, by your logic, a PC would always be in the right to attack an NPC monk since a monk's weapons are always "brandished" unless he is securely bound. Difference between holding out a clearly designed 'weapon' meant to harm and only to harm such as a Mace, and attacking a person because they have hands. There's a big difference between somebody merely pulling a weapon and an orc charging at you with his weapon ready to bear. True, but there is also a big difference between a orc charging at you with his weapon drawn, and an ENTIRE BAR full of people with MACES waiting for initiative. Well, as I tried to suggest (albeit perhaps a bit poorly) I do think that your DM was most likely playing a little fast and loose with the rules in the zombie encounter. However, you wouldn't have seen the sorc if he was invisible, or had shapechanged somehow, etc. I agree, it seems to me like the DM was trying to do something and upon failing that by not getting the reaction he wanted, got angry and spiteful. Though in his defense, if he tries to pull out a ridiculous amount of zombies on you that any sane person -RP wise- would run from because they did not wish to be overwhelmed would have run. You however chose to fight them all, alone, why? Because they couldn't get past your ac? that’s meta-gaming. and doesn't make any sense unless you are role-playing a bloodthirsty character who would gladly take on endless zombies though knowing he would surly die. But your self defense argument form later leads me to believe you were just trying to defend yourself. Which doesn’t correlate with your previous actions... As for the hermit, the added information that you provided would tend to suggest that it would be appropriate to bring him to justice in that case. Assuming that his actions are not being sanctioned by the local authority, he would be an outlaw. Indeed, Feed the Hermit to his own Tiger. With regard to the bar, while you may well be correct in that the DM was railroading, and there certainly is plenty to suggest that (no grapple check for instance), the mere fact that they brandished their weapons does not mean that their intent was to kill you. You would have been better to try to talk your way out of that situation first. Doesn't seem reasonable. The DM is obvious ignoring rules, and both of their tempers flared. However I agree with you that he didn't handle it well, but if it were me and I faced an entire bar full of well armed people I would have jumped through a window, or taken out my weapon and threatened them and THEN talked. Killing first and asking questions later is not wise. But then again, facing THAT many that are simply waiting for initiative since the DM did role imitative, seems like suicide. Your best bet is still to talk to your DM and express your concerns. Particularly, let him know that you feel like you were being targetted and that you were being railroaded. True, but OP and DM should both go in apologetically. After all. No one is prefect. Obviously some kind of plan failed. And it seems to me like your PC friend who said you proved them right by attacking them had no room to talk. HE wasn’t being threatened by an entire bar for ‘smelling evil’ I didn’t even know commoners had the ‘Scent’ ability.
STAT 05-24-06, 09:01 PM	So what you're saying is that every time a police officer pulls his or her sidearm out they are trying to kill somebody? Additionally, is it impossible for somebody to brandish a weapon merely as a warning without intending to attack you? In fact, by your logic, a PC would always be in the right to attack an NPC monk since a monk's weapons are always "brandished" unless he is securely bound. There's a big difference between somebody merely pulling a weapon and an orc charging at you with his weapon ready to bear. I never said that anytime someone draws a weapon that they're out to kill anyone. I was merely pointing out that in this particular situation it was pretty clear what was about to happen. Nonetheless going with what you're saying, what are the drunks here warning the PC about? No offense, but did you read the log from the first post? That's not sarcastic either, I really want to know if you read the first post because I don't believe anyone could look at that situation and come to a conclusion other than that those drunks had very hostile intentions. I'm further supported by the fact that later the DM says the drunks thought the PC's, "smelled like evil." Do people, in D&D, that think you're evil draw their maces and: A) lay down a cool beat on some drums or B) clobber you to death? I don't know about you but I'm betting that they were going to kill the guy.
Engilbrand 05-24-06, 09:25 PM	I'd also like to say that there's something wrong with your party. So far, I know there are 2 of you. That's it. And, this is a serious question, I wonder how old you guys are. The DM has no idea what's going on, you are in a game with such completely random crap, yet you take the time to post it all on the message boards. It's the same scenario as, "My boyfriend hits me but he says he loves me. I love him. Should I leave?" What the hell?! Of course you should leave! "My DM throws over 1000 zombies at my level 7 character, then has me held captive by a crazy hermit and his tiger, THEN has a bar full of "somethings" pull out maces and tell me that I "stink of Satan". Oh, and his DMPC rogue wouldn't let me kill the hermit. Should I leave?" What? No. You should stay in the game as it can only get better from here. Of course your DM loves you.
BladeBoy 05-24-06, 10:11 PM	The other Pc is 18, i'm 20, and the DM is.. at least 21, not much more. We discussed it today, and we more or less worked it out. From another game, and life itself, another guy we know (won't call him a friend) seriously ticked off the DM, and he still had some rage in him. I know how he felt, that guy ticked me off too. So, we're fine, for now. and about the zombies. it started at like 10, and everyround like i said, he had more come up. I tried to run, but he claimed my horse ran away "about 5000 zombies ago", and the rest is in the 1st post.
Gargs454 05-25-06, 12:44 AM	I never said that anytime someone draws a weapon that they're out to kill anyone. I was merely pointing out that in this particular situation it was pretty clear what was about to happen. Nonetheless going with what you're saying, what are the drunks here warning the PC about? No offense, but did you read the log from the first post? That's not sarcastic either, I really want to know if you read the first post because I don't believe anyone could look at that situation and come to a conclusion other than that those drunks had very hostile intentions. I'm further supported by the fact that later the DM says the drunks thought the PC's, "smelled like evil." Do people, in D&D, that think you're evil draw their maces and: A) lay down a cool beat on some drums or B) clobber you to death? I don't know about you but I'm betting that they were going to kill the guy. Actually I did read the log. Also, keep in mind that I'm playing Devil's Advocate here (in other words trying to find a justification for the DM's actions). My thoughts on the bar (again taking the facts in the light most favorable to the DM): Even with everyone drawing weapons, the OP could have a) tried to talk his way out of it, or b) as someone else said, made a dash for the window. Technically, none of the NPC's said the PC's smelled like evil, it was actually a PC I believe (unless I missed that), the NPC just said they stink. At any rate, I agree, that it certainly sounds as though any attempts to avoid the altercation would have likely been dismissed by the DM based on the description we've been given so far, however, we can't know for sure unless the alternatives were tried. The upshot is that it sounds as though the OP and his DM have smoothed things out which is what is most important. Hopefully everyone can learn from this, but especially the DM. Again, as I stated earlier, he was certainly playing fast and loose with the rules. Those cops you mentioned would shoot you if you pull a gun out. Umm actually not necessarily. If their weapons were already drawn, and you reach for a weapon, then yes they probably would shoot. However, its very common for officers to approach armed individuals, including those who have guns drawn/brandished, and merely draw their own guns without firing. If you pull a knife on someone in the real world, what do you expect them to do? Comment on it's shine? Someone doesn't pull a knife on you just to pull out a knife. Unless they were your friend and wanted to show you a weapon. But I hardly think an ENTIRE BAR of people who said he 'smelled evil' were friendly. I know people who have pulled weapons on intruders. None of them shot said intruder. The intruders always got the message and decided to leave. In each of those cases, the person who pulled the weapon merely wanted to coerce the intruder into leaving. Its possible that the tavern patrons merely wanted to keep the PCs from leaving until they could be questioned. (As I said earlier though, I tend to think that its likely that the PCs would not have been able to avoid the fight anyway, just stating that its possible).
Darth Sephiroth 05-25-06, 01:00 AM	From my understanding on the second part (The bar full of people who drew weapons), you did something very understandable. Your character was trapped in a room where everyone drew leathal weapons. Its the same situation as if I was in a bar and was prevented from leaving and everyone pulled loaded guns and started waving them at you. Of course you would try to defend yourself
BladeBoy 05-25-06, 01:29 AM	about that window.. 06:20] <Jaar> how many people are by the exit? or a window? [06:20] <Haven> The black guy spoke, and Cian specifically spoke to you [06:21] <Haven> you see the window across the room, and another behind you. When you look that way, the black guy shakes his head. "None of that, now. There's men outside. We know you were traveling with her." [06:22] <Jaar> "I was JUST trying to go outside, when these men refused to let me leave, they drew weapons on me, so I defended myself" [06:23] <Haven> He shakes his head. "You are a stubborn one, aye... The point is, you were helping her, so you've gotta pay the price." [06:23] * Cian stares at Jaar for a moment and then back at the black man. "And death is the price?" [06:24] <Haven> man: "Aye, and last I checked, young man..." *to Jaar* "Drawing a weapon will not harm you." [06:24] <Jaar> "When it's 47 to 2, it can" [06:25] <Cian> who counts that [06:25] <Cian> really? [06:25] <Cian> other than me. [06:25] <Cian> really? [06:25] <Jaar> you [06:25] <Haven> lol [06:25] <Haven> Man: *raises an eyebrow* [06:25] <Haven> Man: "No, son... it don't matter if a thousand men draw weapons. THat ain't gonna hurt you." [06:26] <Haven> Man: "Point is, you attacked first. Even if we wasn't gonna string you up for helping her, we'd do it for that." [06:26] <Jaar> "It's only human to feel threatened when outnumbered." [06:26] <Haven> Man: "Yer friend there seemed content to wait and see what happened. [06:26] <Haven> " [06:27] <Jaar> "He's never been near death with dozens of people simply "have drawn weapons" waiting to kill you" [06:27] <Haven> man: "Is that a fact?" [06:28] <Jaar> " Cian, have you before tonight been in that situation?" [06:28] <Haven> man: "You seem to be mistakin this for a trial, son. You were cavorting with her, so you now pay the penalty." [06:29] <Jaar> "You know what? Kill her. I'll go down fighting for myself, but not for her, it's not gonna happen, not now, not after today" [06:29] * Cian climbs up on the table. "And us leaving is not going to hurt you. My friend is foolish at times, beyond speech at others. What will hurt you, is the damnation you bring upon your town and the rest of this unholy god damned planet if you do not let us leave. The demons are coming, and they will kill you all... all of you... burn your houses, kill your women... destroy your town... and they won't just kill you, they'll hang YOU UP!" [06:29] <Cian> " THEY'LL BURN YOUR BODIES WHILE BREATH STILL RUNS FROM YOUR LUNGS! THE SAME BREATH THAT RUNS FROM MINE AND HIS! WE CAN PUT AN END TO IT, AND I DON'T THINK YOU CAN STOP US." [06:29] <Jaar> wow [06:29] <Jaar> he speaks [06:29] <Jaar> my god [06:29] <Cian> yeah [06:30] <Cian> well [06:30] <Cian> I was trying to find a place between you digging our graves
Engilbrand 05-25-06, 07:10 AM	<Black guy> Even if 1000 draw weapons, that ain't gonna hurt you. After all, these maces are weapons. They're +1 Tickle-sticks. We'll just hit you a few times and you'll feel better and we'll all laugh and hug one another. Eh? Idiot DM.
LouSapphire 05-25-06, 07:34 AM	If it actually happened then you are dealing with an idiot of a DM that doesn;t yet understand that games never go as planned. If you have sorted everything out then great, go and enjoy your game. There is no need to post things to continue making your DM look bad. Not gonna comment on drawing your weapon in that bar, or the zombies, I think that's been covered already... On a random note. What alighnment is your char?
Pajaul 05-25-06, 07:49 AM	Umm actually not necessarily. If their weapons were already drawn, and you reach for a weapon, then yes they probably would shoot. However, its very common for officers to approach armed individuals, including those who have guns drawn/brandished, and merely draw their own guns without firing. I'll accept your point and counter point with a story about a man who got shot for brandishing a hand grenade at police officers... it was later found out to be a pear. Can’t seem to find a reference for it though… I know people who have pulled weapons on intruders. None of them shot said intruder. The intruders always got the message and decided to leave. In each of those cases, the person who pulled the weapon merely wanted to coerce the intruder into leaving. Like I said, that could apply, but that is not the case here. Which you also agree on... Its possible that the tavern patrons merely wanted to keep the PCs from leaving until they could be questioned. (As I said earlier though, I tend to think that its likely that the PCs would not have been able to avoid the fight anyway, just stating that its possible). ..here. Yeah, “Stink of Satan” theory rules that out. Really I agree with you and see where you are going and have no real argument anymore but I’ll keep talking anyway because I always enjoy finding instances where I can state my opinion and be humorous. But you say, “Where is the Humor?” Well… I say in the next encounter the OP has with said bar he grab a pair and try to “Bluff” that it is a hand grenade. Or a flask of Alchemist fire with Exploding runes written on it. Would be hilarious.
Sorti 05-25-06, 07:59 AM	Change DM. Now. With a hammer.
Witch 05-25-06, 08:07 AM	I'll accept your point and counter point with a story about a man who got shot for brandishing a hand grenade at police officers... it was later found out to be a pear. Can’t seem to find a reference for it though… Could it be... an urban legend?
Suzaku455 05-25-06, 08:30 AM	I'll accept your point and counter point with a story about a man who got shot for brandishing a hand grenade at police officers... it was later found out to be a pear. Because the guy had a wallet and police opened fire thinking it was gun and the guy was shot 41 times.