Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Metabubbles 11-12-04, 04:54 PM	Just had to say it, I know he might be reading this!!!LOL (JK) Anyways... A recent argument came up that the "lower spell resistance" spell in draconomacon (sp?) is Too powerful. I have a 10th lvl sorceror, and really the only thing stopping him is spell resistance. I am part of a party of 5, Fighter, cleric, rogue, fighter/wizard, and me, sorceror. I am basically firepower, the wizard utility,and the other 3 obvious. I come upon this spell and basically the argument is an appropriate EL has 1 main bad guy (rough example)with smaller ones helping, I hit him w/lower spell resistance, and he now has none. The main bad guy must roll a 20 to save vs it (which is virtually nil, basically 5 %), and now he has -10 to spell resistance. Even at 20 spell resistance, it is now 10, and my level is 10, so I don't even have to roll to hit him with future spells. What do you think? In the situation, it might appear too powerful, or especially in our group it allows the cleric and other spell caster to successfully hit the main dude. The recommendation was to make the save minus half the spell caster level instead of minus the spell caster level. ie -5 instead of -10 to the fort save. It seems reasonable, but with the sorceror giving up a precious 4th level spell for it, it seems fine to begin with, since a sorceror is so limited. I have the option of keeping the spell (which I think I might) or picking another 4th level spell. What would you do?
Occams_Razor 11-12-04, 06:19 PM	I agree that your DM is probably being a little paranoid. Frankly, while it is a handy spell, you can't throw it around like candy, and even if you could, there are other ways to avoid spell damage and effects. I think it would be like saying letting the cleric have an adamantine weapon would be too powerful, in some situations, probably, but the DM should be able to challange you anyway, that's part of the job. I know that lower spell resistance just doesn't do that much for may players when I DM, since if I want the BBEG to avoid taking spell effects, I use things other than spell resistance, typically. But perhaps your DM has a good reason (a very particular one) for not wanting the spell in the game. Either way, without knowing a lot more details than you are privvy to, it's difficult to say definitively.
NateNate 11-12-04, 06:22 PM	SR is like an AC versus spells. A Fighter has the option of Sundering an opponent's armor/shield, thereby drastically reducing its AC for the rest of the fight. This spell does the same thing to SR, it just allows your tactics to be more successful. If he thinks its unbalanced, maybe you should point that its useless every time you fight a monster which doesn't have SR. Spell Resistance is not necessary, otherwise every creature would have it. It was meant to be thwarted, otherwise there wouldn't be a (Greater) Spell Penetration feat, nor would there be spells which don't allow for SR to apply. Delaying your attacks for a round and using one of the higher-level spells you can cast just to make your character effective against an opponent, imo, is not overpowered. If he thinks the save DC is too high, just remind him that similar 2e spells didn't even allow a saving throw.
Cebo 11-13-04, 09:47 AM	I think the DM is way over reacting. Unless the effect is permanent i think it is underpowered to be 4th level, considering the few creatures that have spell resistance. For a sor it is almost not worth knowing IMO, unless your DM always throws those kinds of creatures at you. Anyway i dont see a problem with the spell personally.
Derren S. 11-13-04, 11:49 AM	It is a very strong spell because of the save penalty it gives. The only thing which balances it is the 1 round casting time (maybe you have forgotten this?). So show your Dm that there are ways to avoid this spell and hope that this will convince him. And if not it is the right of the DM to ban stuff and lower spell resistence gives the caster a huge advantage. As you said yourself, the only thing stopping your sourcerer is SR. And no, fighter can't sunder armor.
Tehril 11-13-04, 03:17 PM	Actaully, you can sunder ANYTHING on an opponent (3.5 edition). Your opponent only gets to make an opposed attack roll for something he carries. Otherwise, you must simply make an attack roll based on the items size & the wearers dexterity. Make no mistake, Sunder is GROSS. You still have to do enough damage to detroy an item, be it armor or boots or a blade. Either way, you provoke an AOO. It's just that you will have a tougher time getting rid of a held item.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 11-13-04, 03:37 PM	Actaully, you can sunder ANYTHING on an opponent (3.5 edition). Your opponent only gets to make an opposed attack roll for something he carries. Otherwise, you must simply make an attack roll based on the items size & the wearers dexterity. Make no mistake, Sunder is GROSS. You still have to do enough damage to detroy an item, be it armor or boots or a blade. Either way, you provoke an AOO. It's just that you will have a tougher time getting rid of a held item. You can't sunder armor. It states that you can't sunder armor.
Tehril 11-13-04, 04:04 PM	SUNDER You can use a melee attack with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon to strike a weapon or shield that your opponent is holding. If you’re attempting to sunder a weapon or shield, follow the steps outlined here. (Attacking held objects other than weapons or shields is covered below.) Table: Common Armor, Weapon, and Shield Hardness and Hit Points Weapon or Shield Hardness HP1 Light blade 10 2 One-handed blade 10 5 Two-handed blade 10 10 Light metal-hafted weapon 10 10 One-handed metal-hafted weapon 10 20 Light hafted weapon 5 2 One-handed hafted weapon 5 5 Two-handed hafted weapon 5 10 Projectile weapon 5 5 Armor special2 armor bonus x5 Buckler 10 5 Light wooden shield 5 7 Heavy wooden shield 5 15 Light steel shield 10 10 Heavy steel shield 10 20 Tower shield 5 20 1 The hp value given is for Medium armor, weapons, and shields. Divide by 2 for each size category of the item smaller than Medium, or multiply it by 2 for each size category larger than Medium. 2 Varies by material. Step 1: Attack of Opportunity. You provoke an attack of opportunity from the target whose weapon or shield you are trying to sunder. (If you have the Improved Sunder feat, you don’t incur an attack of opportunity for making the attempt.) Step 2: Opposed Rolls. You and the defender make opposed attack rolls with your respective weapons. The wielder of a two-handed weapon on a sunder attempt gets a +4 bonus on this roll, and the wielder of a light weapon takes a –4 penalty. If the combatants are of different sizes, the larger combatant gets a bonus on the attack roll of +4 per difference in size category. Step 3: Consequences. If you beat the defender, roll damage and deal it to the weapon or shield. See Table: Common Armor, Weapon, and Shield Hardness and Hit Points to determine how much damage you must deal to destroy the weapon or shield. If you fail the sunder attempt, you don’t deal any damage. Sundering a Carried or Worn Object: You don’t use an opposed attack roll to damage a carried or worn object. Instead, just make an attack roll against the object’s AC. A carried or worn object’s AC is equal to 10 + its size modifier + the Dexterity modifier of the carrying or wearing character. Attacking a carried or worn object provokes an attack of opportunity just as attacking a held object does. To attempt to snatch away an item worn by a defender rather than damage it, see Disarm. You can’t sunder armor worn by another character. oops... my mistake. Didn't read the full entry. Then I wonder why they have Armor listed in both the SRD and PHB.
Occams_Razor 11-14-04, 03:16 PM	Because, at least according to the rules you have posted in the quote, you can sunder armor *you* are wearing... not entirely sure why you would want to, but there you have it. Also, you can sunder it if no one is wearing it, before the enemy has the chance to don it, so I guess I can see where it might be useful...
Cyricist 11-14-04, 04:26 PM	It is useful... just imagine wearing a full plate and someone casting Heat Metal on you.. you want to get it OFF as soon as possible.. thus.. you sunder it, thrashing it off your body? Just an idea of this working in practice.. :embarrass
ShadowDragon8685 11-14-04, 04:51 PM	Why the jeebers can you sunder someone's weapon, and not his armor? I mean, I'd think that it would be much EASIER to sunder armor. You just swing a big mallet into his big platemail breastpiece. BAM. Sundered armor.
XArchangelX 11-14-04, 05:34 PM	Presumably your opponent will be placing his weapon and shield in between your big mallet and his breastplate. Also, I imagine sundering your own armor would be a rather tricky proposition. My DM would probably make me roll a percentage chance to hit myself with my own weapon. :( He loves irony.
Mousse 11-14-04, 05:34 PM	Because that's what you are doing when you try to hit him. Armor is designed to take impacts.
airhed13 11-15-04, 02:01 PM	I tend to agree with your DM on this one. The draconomicon isn't available in my game for spells, etc., but after reading the spell it looks pretty strong. I look at it this way. Assuming nothing fancy and we're talking about the standard 3-level feat progression, it takes 6 levels (2 feats) to get a +4 on rolls vs spell resistance. You can pick up lower resistance at level 8 (as a sorc), and immediately start knocking out the spell resistances of enemies by 8 points. I grant you, the 1-round casting time and fort save are non-trivial. I'd still be sorely tempted to houserule the spell up to lvl5, though. -Airhed13
fractal 11-15-04, 03:47 PM	Against a single opponent of equal CR, typically you'll have around a 50% chance of getting through SR. That means, on average, that it will take you about 2 rounds to succeed. With Lower Spell Resistance, you can spend a round to (generally) gain a 100% chance of getting through SR, when you cast your second spell the next round. That means, on average, that it will take you... about 2 rounds to succeed! Sure, sometimes you'll want to cast multiple successful spells on a single target. In these instances, then LSR is helpful. However, these are balanced by the instances that the one round casting time gets you (if you take damage during that round, good luck succeeding with your spell). There is also the disadvantage that LSR is only a supplementary spell, not an active spell capable of solving problems on its own. If you expect to meet a drow, and prepare LSR and Dominate Person, and instead meet two normal elves, you'll really wish you'd instead prepared two Dominates. On the other hand, if you prepare two Dominates, expecting elves, and instead meet a drow, you're probably fine. The mechanics of LSR are kind of strange (level-based penalty to the Fortitude save?), but I don't think the spell is unbalanced.
penchant 11-19-04, 03:11 AM	Upper parts: Spell resistance is not supposed to be so common that every bad guy has it. So if you come upon it rarely, the lower resistance would be less powerful than if you meet it every battle. Plus, saves are not negated by the lower resistance so there should be no problem. It's like casting dispell magic on magic bracers to lower AC. Lower parts: I think that armor could be sundered since you could cut straps that hold the breast plate up, you could dent in joints so that they don't move anymore. It's a contested roll so its still fair. I would allow special effects like losing the breast plate lowers AC by 2 but there is still chain underneath so he still has some protection. A frozen knee reduces movement by half until the wearer takes off the knee guard. A sunder attack against a helm could result in a stun attack with a DC 15 to save.
was_fired 11-19-04, 04:49 AM	You can't sunder armor for balance reasons. Likewise I don't allow lower spell resistance in my games for balance reasons.
Murazor 11-19-04, 05:25 AM	Lower Spell Resistance (Sor/Wiz4) from the Draconomicon is a "weak" spell. I mean, it takes a full round to cast. During this time you can be pummeled by your enemies, meaning the spell can be wasted completely. If you are determined to use this sort of spell, you are much better of using Spell Vulnerability (Sor/Wiz3) from the Planar Handbook. It is *exactly* the same spell except for its level. If you have Complete Arcane available to you, there is a much better solution: Assay Resistance (Sor/Wiz4). This spell can be cast as a swift action (just consider it a quickened spell, except that even sorcerers can use it in this way), lasts for 1round/level and grants you a +10 on casterlevel check to overcome Spell Resistance. Since most creatures have SR in the order of CR+10, most of the time this completely negates the SR. The only saving grace of the Lower Spell Resistance/Spell Vulnerability is, that if you have a caster-heavy party this spell works for all, whereas the Assay Resistance spell works only for the caster.
Derren S. 11-19-04, 07:50 AM	Assay Resistance (Sor/Wiz4). This spell can be cast as a swift action (just consider it a quickened spell, except that even sorcerers can use it in this way), lasts for 1round/level and grants you a +10 on casterlevel check to overcome Spell Resistance. Since most creatures have SR in the order of CR+10, most of the time this completely negates the SR. And another entry for the overpowered spells list.