DM is playing Favorites? Help please [Archive] - Wizards Community

DM is playing Favorites? Help please [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Gildnao
09-12-05, 11:43 PM ok, so im joining into a group that is new to me, but i know two of the players from past groups and those two have been playing with the other two (one is now the starting DM)

Those two before in the group were a Evil duo. What i mean is, they played Evil characters (fine, not a problem, i like playing evil characters too) but they would steal from the group or try to set things up so everything favored them. Again, evil characters roleplaying, not a problem.

Now however, the DM is one of them and his best bud is playing an evil character and "hogging" all the DM's attention. The player is rolling his rolls behind a screen or a binder i mean, and only allowing the DM to see. I dont like that! Also, the last game that was played the other players were only involved in one fight out of 3 hours of playing, they were totally ignored the rest of the time while the "DM's Pet" was off killing innocents or whatever (doesnt bother me that hes evil, what bothers me is that he is playing a one man game with the DM)

Neither i nor my two friends know what to do with these two. Im told that the rules for my character can be anything from a registered Dungeons and Dragons book that follows 3.5 rules

So, im making a Gestalt Monk/Cleric combo as we found rules for it in the Unearthed Arcana book furthe more, im following the paths of Exalted Deeds and have taken the Vow of Poverty to gain the special bonus' i get from that. My monk will be Lawful Good and im hopeing to put a stop to the DM hogging.

From what my friends and i have said is that we suspect the evil character to be some sort of powerhouse class possibly a Gestalt character and we want to try to even the playing fields. we're also prepared to walk if the two of them dont "play fair" or atleast play fun.

Any suggestions of ideas or even words of encouragement would be great.
Draco Strang
09-12-05, 11:53 PM First of all, your gestalt monk/cleric with Exalted feats sounds like a DM's worst nightmare. If he's biased against you in anyway, that powerhouse you're cooking up will only hurt things more.

Secondly, does he even know you're doing a Gestalt? If you're the only one in a party of regular PCs, then he'll probably axe it before you even get to play.

My suggestion is to talk to him OOG and see if you can't figure out a way to give the other players more time in the spotlight. Squabbling in-game will only create hard feelings.

And if everything goes to pot and you guys just can't get along, then it's probably time to find/start a new group.

I've had a crappy group or two in my time,and I feel your pain. Good luck man.
Gildnao
09-13-05, 12:01 AM ya, i really shouldnt be making any comments, i have only met the guys like once and this saturday will be my first game. so basically, im trying to build up a character not to be a DM's worst nightmare, but to possibly throw a wall infront of any "backalley" plans that the evil char and the DM worked out together. My biggest fear is that its going to turn out to be a "Im the DM, Hes my Bestfriend, Anything i say goes, And anything he tries works" kinda deal.

But i guess i really just have to wait and see on Saturday how things start to turn out. I dont want to kill the group, but from what im told, the killing may not be from my doing.
DarknessEternal
09-13-05, 01:03 AM My biggest fear is that its going to turn out to be a "Im the DM, Hes my Bestfriend, Anything i say goes, And anything he tries works" kinda deal.

If that's how it works, don't play with them. You said you had two other friends involved, play with just them. If a game isn't fun, it's not a game anymore, and no one should waste their time on it.
Thorak
09-13-05, 01:51 AM First of all, your gestalt monk/cleric with Exalted feats sounds like a DM's worst nightmare. If he's biased against you in anyway, that powerhouse you're cooking up will only hurt things more.
Not really.

Holy Symbols breach the Vow. How many spells require a divine focus, again?
ShadowDragon8685
09-13-05, 04:11 AM A wooden holy symbol breaches the Vow of Poverty? o.o
Draco Strang
09-13-05, 04:13 AM Not really.

Holy Symbols breach the Vow. How many spells require a divine focus, again?
Touche' Thorak. Touche'. I'd completely forgotten about that little stipulation.

Good lookin' out.
Solidcobra
09-13-05, 04:30 AM Right. Because, yeah...you can absoultely not have wooden items. like a quarterstaff or a wooden holy symbol. You can also not have any clothes, only fig leaves. Ooh, ooh! And you have to balance a glass of water on your head while playing the character!

NO a wooden holy symbol doesn't breach VoP.
Sjay1
09-13-05, 04:49 AM hehe which is it guys?...it does say he can't own Anything right...?
i'm curious since one of my party members is playing a monk/cleric...
q'afuu
09-13-05, 04:49 AM Basically, you're heading straight for a one-upmanship race. To make matters worse, you're putting an Exalted character (the epitome of being Good) and an evil character (apparently evil enough for murder too) in the same party. Talk about disaster looming around the corner.

I strongly suggest you drop this line of thought and start talking with both the DM and the other player. Ask what they think this campaign is supposed to be like. Is gestalt allowed or not? If the party is mixed good/evil, how do they think that's going to work (because IMX, it almost never does)? Is there an understanding about PvP situations?

But your best option is probably to bow out before things get messy and start a different campaign. "Anything 3.5 goes" is much too vague as a guideline. I don't think a DM who doesn't involve himself more in character creation is much of one, and the blatant favouritism didn't really do much to make me re-evaluate that.
Rhomphaia
09-13-05, 08:29 AM Right. Because, yeah...you can absoultely not have wooden items. like a quarterstaff or a wooden holy symbol. You can also not have any clothes, only fig leaves. Ooh, ooh! And you have to balance a glass of water on your head while playing the character!

NO a wooden holy symbol doesn't breach VoP.
That's not what the almighty FAQ says...
...well, it is almighty until it runs into my games, where I blatanly disregard it for silly contradictions.
I agree with the above.
Doopliss
09-13-05, 09:20 AM Metagaming: ask the player to roll out in the open. If he refuses, ask the DM to make him to add player trust. If He refuses, then it's probably taken so out of hand you should just leave.

In-game: Does the rest of the party feel as you do about his random murdering?(in-game.) If so, you have a last-ditch effort to make life that much easier. Have the party approach him before setting out and say that the stealing from friends and random murdering is getting out of hand, and you should either be reasonable, or we'll be forced to expel you from the party. (it shouldn't come to that, otherwise you'd never get to do anything)

If he agrees, great. If he doesn't, the only logical thing for a deranged maniac(going by the random slaughter) is to attack. (just make sure you can take them down confidently) that's why he's rolling out in the open. :devil: If you take him out, you get peace for the rest of the adventure and the player will probably make someone who doesn't conflict with the game so much. If the DM metagames him to victory, just leave. After that display, the other players may join you.
Worst case scenario and he leaves, decide to hunt him down next time he starts murdering like that. You're good/neutral/one evil,(possibly not) it's perfectly reasonable.

Just a suggestion :)
Rhomphaia
09-13-05, 09:31 AM Well, to add to my above post, take the two other reasonable players and just leave the game and make your own group. Much less of a headache that way and you avoid all sorts of complicated problems with hard feelings and such.
Merestil Haye
09-13-05, 09:32 AM Right. Because, yeah...you can absoultely not have wooden items. like a quarterstaff or a wooden holy symbol. You can also not have any clothes, only fig leaves. Ooh, ooh! And you have to balance a glass of water on your head while playing the character!

NO a wooden holy symbol doesn't breach VoP.A holy symbol of any kind breaches the Vow.

It is not (contrary to some people's belief) the FAQ that says this, but the Vow. Reading the part headed Special shows you what you are allowed to own. You may carry and use ordinary (neither masterwork nor magical) simple weapons.
You may use simple clothing with no magical properties.
You may carry enough food to sustain you for one day in a simple (nonmagical) sack or bag.
You may carry and use a spell component pouch.Reading the feat fails to uncover the text "You may carry and use a simple wooden holy symbol". Therefore, by the feat as written, you may not.

All the FAQ does is confirm that this was not an oversight on the designer's part. The last sentence of the answer makes that very clear.

A houserule to allow an ascetic cleric to carry and use a wooden, nonmagical holy symbol may be reasonable. If so I suggest that you make the character vow never to use weapons instead.

There's a thread elsewhere on this, and this post (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7225530&postcount=44) is really useful since it lists the spells that do not require a divine focus - in other words, spells you can cast that do not require a holy symbol.
Rhomphaia
09-13-05, 09:43 AM Look, this is a dead horse, a very dead horse, as the link you provided shows. Let's get back on topic.
malrick
09-13-05, 10:34 AM a holy symbol is a focus, a focus is reuseable component, it they fight that, tatoo it on your hand
Phrennzy
09-13-05, 10:43 AM Basically, you're heading straight for a one-upmanship race. To make matters worse, you're putting an Exalted character (the epitome of being Good) and an evil character (apparently evil enough for murder too) in the same party. Talk about disaster looming around the corner.

I strongly suggest you drop this line of thought and start talking with both the DM and the other player. Ask what they think this campaign is supposed to be like. Is gestalt allowed or not? If the party is mixed good/evil, how do they think that's going to work (because IMX, it almost never does)? Is there an understanding about PvP situations?

But your best option is probably to bow out before things get messy and start a different campaign. "Anything 3.5 goes" is much too vague as a guideline. I don't think a DM who doesn't involve himself more in character creation is much of one, and the blatant favouritism didn't really do much to make me re-evaluate that.

I agree with this post 100% - but I must note that the avatar picture is scary.
Doopliss
09-13-05, 12:25 PM I was reading over my post, and just realised how rude and impractical it would be. Sorry about that.
q'afuu
09-13-05, 12:41 PM I agree with this post 100% - but I must note that the avatar picture is scary. Right back atcha. :D
KJW
09-13-05, 12:44 PM I also agree with Q'afuu. This is a situation that will not go well. Whenever the players are focused on drawing up characters to 'beat' the DM, instead of making characters based on what they want to roleplay then all is messed up. If there is no trust between DM and players then the campaign is already over. Maybe it would be an idea to take a few players and start a new group. Of course trying to talk it over with your DM and the other players is the best place to start. for nothing else to show you are the reasonable one.
q'afuu
09-13-05, 12:46 PM And another thing: if you're annoyed by another player going solo with his evil character for 2/3 of the game time, hogging the DM's attention, adding an Exalted character to the party isn't going to help any. You do realize the evil character will only be forced even more to get away from the party whenever he has something evil to do?
TheErsatzFacsimileOfMe
09-13-05, 01:24 PM Yeah, I agree with everyone who says "Exalted and evil PCs do NOT belong in the same group".

If you really don't like the situation and can't find an out of game answer for it. Vote with your feet, walk out and take the other stiffed players with you. If the DM and his buddy want to play a solo campaign and pat each other on the back, there is really little else you can do. At least barring anything that involves a shovel, a tarp, a 6 foot hole and a bag of lye. :smirk:

So, save yourself the jail time and just walk.
Thorak
09-13-05, 02:50 PM a holy symbol is a focus, a focus is reuseable component, it they fight that, tatoo it on your hand
It doesn't say you can have components. It says you can have the specific item, a spell component pouch. Which doesn't include certain things. Like, explicitly, divine focuses.

And tattoos aren't divine focuses. At least not by the core RAW.
TheErsatzFacsimileOfMe
09-13-05, 03:06 PM I thought this thread was about a DM playing favorites....not whether or not a tattoo was a divine focus...?

Or am I the one who's waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay off topic? :rolleyes:
Bruunwald
09-13-05, 03:18 PM Now however, the DM is one of them and his best bud is playing an evil character and "hogging" all the DM's attention. The player is rolling his rolls behind a screen or a binder i mean, and only allowing the DM to see. I dont like that! Also, the last game that was played the other players were only involved in one fight out of 3 hours of playing, they were totally ignored the rest of the time while the "DM's Pet" was off killing innocents or whatever (doesnt bother me that hes evil, what bothers me is that he is playing a one man game with the DM)

It astounds me that any of the people replying to this wish to harp on you for your gestalt idea, when this right here is the real issue.

The player in question ought to be on your side of the screen, rolling right out in the open with you, and the DM's attention ought to be on you as a group.

Cozying up to the DM and rolling blindly with the DM's complicity is just unfair and wrong. Perhaps they are co-DMing in a sense. Perhaps there is something special about the player's character that needs to be revealed at just the right time. But if that's the case, the DM should have announced this at the first. Right now, you are in the dark, and a good DM ought to know better than to keep the players in the dark about special circumstances, such as a co-DM.

Knowing nothing, you would be within your rights to assume that the DM is cheating right along with the player. If I were you, I would tell him so and leave. But that's me. I can be somewhat reactionary.

Personally, I find something a little perverse in all of this. These guys are obviously close buds who teamed up as evil characters in the past. Now one of them is running an evil game that the other is playing secretly in, slaughtering innocents behind the scenes while three other guys sit there dumbfounded at it all. The perverted part is, what do they need you guys there for? It reminds me of a girlfriend I had who liked to try to fool around with me under a pillow or something while her parents were sitting there watching TV.

Now, that's all well and good when you're fooling around out-of-game. But during a game, people giggling together and stroking each other (metaphorically in this case), is just dirty and weird. Are these guys Beavis and Butthead? Do they snigger at the real-life misfortune of others? Do they chuckle moronically everytime one of them pulls the wings off a bug?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gildnao 09-12-05, 11:43 PM	ok, so im joining into a group that is new to me, but i know two of the players from past groups and those two have been playing with the other two (one is now the starting DM) Those two before in the group were a Evil duo. What i mean is, they played Evil characters (fine, not a problem, i like playing evil characters too) but they would steal from the group or try to set things up so everything favored them. Again, evil characters roleplaying, not a problem. Now however, the DM is one of them and his best bud is playing an evil character and "hogging" all the DM's attention. The player is rolling his rolls behind a screen or a binder i mean, and only allowing the DM to see. I dont like that! Also, the last game that was played the other players were only involved in one fight out of 3 hours of playing, they were totally ignored the rest of the time while the "DM's Pet" was off killing innocents or whatever (doesnt bother me that hes evil, what bothers me is that he is playing a one man game with the DM) Neither i nor my two friends know what to do with these two. Im told that the rules for my character can be anything from a registered Dungeons and Dragons book that follows 3.5 rules So, im making a Gestalt Monk/Cleric combo as we found rules for it in the Unearthed Arcana book furthe more, im following the paths of Exalted Deeds and have taken the Vow of Poverty to gain the special bonus' i get from that. My monk will be Lawful Good and im hopeing to put a stop to the DM hogging. From what my friends and i have said is that we suspect the evil character to be some sort of powerhouse class possibly a Gestalt character and we want to try to even the playing fields. we're also prepared to walk if the two of them dont "play fair" or atleast play fun. Any suggestions of ideas or even words of encouragement would be great.
Draco Strang 09-12-05, 11:53 PM	First of all, your gestalt monk/cleric with Exalted feats sounds like a DM's worst nightmare. If he's biased against you in anyway, that powerhouse you're cooking up will only hurt things more. Secondly, does he even know you're doing a Gestalt? If you're the only one in a party of regular PCs, then he'll probably axe it before you even get to play. My suggestion is to talk to him OOG and see if you can't figure out a way to give the other players more time in the spotlight. Squabbling in-game will only create hard feelings. And if everything goes to pot and you guys just can't get along, then it's probably time to find/start a new group. I've had a crappy group or two in my time,and I feel your pain. Good luck man.
Gildnao 09-13-05, 12:01 AM	ya, i really shouldnt be making any comments, i have only met the guys like once and this saturday will be my first game. so basically, im trying to build up a character not to be a DM's worst nightmare, but to possibly throw a wall infront of any "backalley" plans that the evil char and the DM worked out together. My biggest fear is that its going to turn out to be a "Im the DM, Hes my Bestfriend, Anything i say goes, And anything he tries works" kinda deal. But i guess i really just have to wait and see on Saturday how things start to turn out. I dont want to kill the group, but from what im told, the killing may not be from my doing.
DarknessEternal 09-13-05, 01:03 AM	My biggest fear is that its going to turn out to be a "Im the DM, Hes my Bestfriend, Anything i say goes, And anything he tries works" kinda deal. If that's how it works, don't play with them. You said you had two other friends involved, play with just them. If a game isn't fun, it's not a game anymore, and no one should waste their time on it.
Thorak 09-13-05, 01:51 AM	First of all, your gestalt monk/cleric with Exalted feats sounds like a DM's worst nightmare. If he's biased against you in anyway, that powerhouse you're cooking up will only hurt things more. Not really. Holy Symbols breach the Vow. How many spells require a divine focus, again?
ShadowDragon8685 09-13-05, 04:11 AM	A wooden holy symbol breaches the Vow of Poverty? o.o
Draco Strang 09-13-05, 04:13 AM	Not really. Holy Symbols breach the Vow. How many spells require a divine focus, again? Touche' Thorak. Touche'. I'd completely forgotten about that little stipulation. Good lookin' out.
Solidcobra 09-13-05, 04:30 AM	Right. Because, yeah...you can absoultely not have wooden items. like a quarterstaff or a wooden holy symbol. You can also not have any clothes, only fig leaves. Ooh, ooh! And you have to balance a glass of water on your head while playing the character! NO a wooden holy symbol doesn't breach VoP.
Sjay1 09-13-05, 04:49 AM	hehe which is it guys?...it does say he can't own Anything right...? i'm curious since one of my party members is playing a monk/cleric...
q'afuu 09-13-05, 04:49 AM	Basically, you're heading straight for a one-upmanship race. To make matters worse, you're putting an Exalted character (the epitome of being Good) and an evil character (apparently evil enough for murder too) in the same party. Talk about disaster looming around the corner. I strongly suggest you drop this line of thought and start talking with both the DM and the other player. Ask what they think this campaign is supposed to be like. Is gestalt allowed or not? If the party is mixed good/evil, how do they think that's going to work (because IMX, it almost never does)? Is there an understanding about PvP situations? But your best option is probably to bow out before things get messy and start a different campaign. "Anything 3.5 goes" is much too vague as a guideline. I don't think a DM who doesn't involve himself more in character creation is much of one, and the blatant favouritism didn't really do much to make me re-evaluate that.
Rhomphaia 09-13-05, 08:29 AM	Right. Because, yeah...you can absoultely not have wooden items. like a quarterstaff or a wooden holy symbol. You can also not have any clothes, only fig leaves. Ooh, ooh! And you have to balance a glass of water on your head while playing the character! NO a wooden holy symbol doesn't breach VoP. That's not what the almighty FAQ says... ...well, it is almighty until it runs into my games, where I blatanly disregard it for silly contradictions. I agree with the above.
Doopliss 09-13-05, 09:20 AM	Metagaming: ask the player to roll out in the open. If he refuses, ask the DM to make him to add player trust. If He refuses, then it's probably taken so out of hand you should just leave. In-game: Does the rest of the party feel as you do about his random murdering?(in-game.) If so, you have a last-ditch effort to make life that much easier. Have the party approach him before setting out and say that the stealing from friends and random murdering is getting out of hand, and you should either be reasonable, or we'll be forced to expel you from the party. (it shouldn't come to that, otherwise you'd never get to do anything) If he agrees, great. If he doesn't, the only logical thing for a deranged maniac(going by the random slaughter) is to attack. (just make sure you can take them down confidently) that's why he's rolling out in the open. :devil: If you take him out, you get peace for the rest of the adventure and the player will probably make someone who doesn't conflict with the game so much. If the DM metagames him to victory, just leave. After that display, the other players may join you. Worst case scenario and he leaves, decide to hunt him down next time he starts murdering like that. You're good/neutral/one evil,(possibly not) it's perfectly reasonable. Just a suggestion :)
Rhomphaia 09-13-05, 09:31 AM	Well, to add to my above post, take the two other reasonable players and just leave the game and make your own group. Much less of a headache that way and you avoid all sorts of complicated problems with hard feelings and such.
Merestil Haye 09-13-05, 09:32 AM	Right. Because, yeah...you can absoultely not have wooden items. like a quarterstaff or a wooden holy symbol. You can also not have any clothes, only fig leaves. Ooh, ooh! And you have to balance a glass of water on your head while playing the character! NO a wooden holy symbol doesn't breach VoP.A holy symbol of any kind breaches the Vow. It is not (contrary to some people's belief) the FAQ that says this, but the Vow. Reading the part headed Special shows you what you are allowed to own. You may carry and use ordinary (neither masterwork nor magical) simple weapons. You may use simple clothing with no magical properties. You may carry enough food to sustain you for one day in a simple (nonmagical) sack or bag. You may carry and use a spell component pouch.Reading the feat fails to uncover the text "You may carry and use a simple wooden holy symbol". Therefore, by the feat as written, you may not. All the FAQ does is confirm that this was not an oversight on the designer's part. The last sentence of the answer makes that very clear. A houserule to allow an ascetic cleric to carry and use a wooden, nonmagical holy symbol may be reasonable. If so I suggest that you make the character vow never to use weapons instead. There's a thread elsewhere on this, and this post (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7225530&postcount=44) is really useful since it lists the spells that do not require a divine focus - in other words, spells you can cast that do not require a holy symbol.
Rhomphaia 09-13-05, 09:43 AM	Look, this is a dead horse, a very dead horse, as the link you provided shows. Let's get back on topic.
malrick 09-13-05, 10:34 AM	a holy symbol is a focus, a focus is reuseable component, it they fight that, tatoo it on your hand
Phrennzy 09-13-05, 10:43 AM	Basically, you're heading straight for a one-upmanship race. To make matters worse, you're putting an Exalted character (the epitome of being Good) and an evil character (apparently evil enough for murder too) in the same party. Talk about disaster looming around the corner. I strongly suggest you drop this line of thought and start talking with both the DM and the other player. Ask what they think this campaign is supposed to be like. Is gestalt allowed or not? If the party is mixed good/evil, how do they think that's going to work (because IMX, it almost never does)? Is there an understanding about PvP situations? But your best option is probably to bow out before things get messy and start a different campaign. "Anything 3.5 goes" is much too vague as a guideline. I don't think a DM who doesn't involve himself more in character creation is much of one, and the blatant favouritism didn't really do much to make me re-evaluate that. I agree with this post 100% - but I must note that the avatar picture is scary.
Doopliss 09-13-05, 12:25 PM	I was reading over my post, and just realised how rude and impractical it would be. Sorry about that.
q'afuu 09-13-05, 12:41 PM	I agree with this post 100% - but I must note that the avatar picture is scary. Right back atcha. :D
KJW 09-13-05, 12:44 PM	I also agree with Q'afuu. This is a situation that will not go well. Whenever the players are focused on drawing up characters to 'beat' the DM, instead of making characters based on what they want to roleplay then all is messed up. If there is no trust between DM and players then the campaign is already over. Maybe it would be an idea to take a few players and start a new group. Of course trying to talk it over with your DM and the other players is the best place to start. for nothing else to show you are the reasonable one.
q'afuu 09-13-05, 12:46 PM	And another thing: if you're annoyed by another player going solo with his evil character for 2/3 of the game time, hogging the DM's attention, adding an Exalted character to the party isn't going to help any. You do realize the evil character will only be forced even more to get away from the party whenever he has something evil to do?
TheErsatzFacsimileOfMe 09-13-05, 01:24 PM	Yeah, I agree with everyone who says "Exalted and evil PCs do NOT belong in the same group". If you really don't like the situation and can't find an out of game answer for it. Vote with your feet, walk out and take the other stiffed players with you. If the DM and his buddy want to play a solo campaign and pat each other on the back, there is really little else you can do. At least barring anything that involves a shovel, a tarp, a 6 foot hole and a bag of lye. :smirk: So, save yourself the jail time and just walk.
Thorak 09-13-05, 02:50 PM	a holy symbol is a focus, a focus is reuseable component, it they fight that, tatoo it on your hand It doesn't say you can have components. It says you can have the specific item, a spell component pouch. Which doesn't include certain things. Like, explicitly, divine focuses. And tattoos aren't divine focuses. At least not by the core RAW.
TheErsatzFacsimileOfMe 09-13-05, 03:06 PM	I thought this thread was about a DM playing favorites....not whether or not a tattoo was a divine focus...? Or am I the one who's waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay off topic? :rolleyes:
Bruunwald 09-13-05, 03:18 PM	Now however, the DM is one of them and his best bud is playing an evil character and "hogging" all the DM's attention. The player is rolling his rolls behind a screen or a binder i mean, and only allowing the DM to see. I dont like that! Also, the last game that was played the other players were only involved in one fight out of 3 hours of playing, they were totally ignored the rest of the time while the "DM's Pet" was off killing innocents or whatever (doesnt bother me that hes evil, what bothers me is that he is playing a one man game with the DM) It astounds me that any of the people replying to this wish to harp on you for your gestalt idea, when this right here is the real issue. The player in question ought to be on your side of the screen, rolling right out in the open with you, and the DM's attention ought to be on you as a group. Cozying up to the DM and rolling blindly with the DM's complicity is just unfair and wrong. Perhaps they are co-DMing in a sense. Perhaps there is something special about the player's character that needs to be revealed at just the right time. But if that's the case, the DM should have announced this at the first. Right now, you are in the dark, and a good DM ought to know better than to keep the players in the dark about special circumstances, such as a co-DM. Knowing nothing, you would be within your rights to assume that the DM is cheating right along with the player. If I were you, I would tell him so and leave. But that's me. I can be somewhat reactionary. Personally, I find something a little perverse in all of this. These guys are obviously close buds who teamed up as evil characters in the past. Now one of them is running an evil game that the other is playing secretly in, slaughtering innocents behind the scenes while three other guys sit there dumbfounded at it all. The perverted part is, what do they need you guys there for? It reminds me of a girlfriend I had who liked to try to fool around with me under a pillow or something while her parents were sitting there watching TV. Now, that's all well and good when you're fooling around out-of-game. But during a game, people giggling together and stroking each other (metaphorically in this case), is just dirty and weird. Are these guys Beavis and Butthead? Do they snigger at the real-life misfortune of others? Do they chuckle moronically everytime one of them pulls the wings off a bug?