Post/Author/DateTime	Post
MasonMurdoc 03-24-07, 09:15 AM	I know it's not my place to ***** about something like this but it's really making it hard to get into the game. First mistake he made was when he was sending the Rogue on an atonement quest. It was supposed to be an exorcism, then when he went back to the priest that gave him the quest it changed to "Kill the Demon, and bring back his ear"(Like you do in WoW) The next thing isn't really a bi deal but it bugged me anyway. He had a Devil leading Demons. Then when we killed the devil, it disintagrated. I had to mention the ear to him. Then the ranger took the ear instead(Not part of the problem, but I thought it worth mentioning) He's using the oW map which isn't really a problem for me. But I'm pretty sure he has no idea whats going on in the world around us. If I try to mention any of this to him he'll go off on one, because he's under the impression I'm nasty to him(Even when I defend him) This was mainly just a rant but if anyone has any words of wisdom that aren't, leave the group, I'll greatly appreciate it. I can't leave the group, because we're all friends and it could danage my other frienships
celtredleg 03-24-07, 10:37 AM	There are really only 3 things you can do. 1. leave 2. Talk to him 3. deal with it There are dozens of variations on each of those, but that is just technique. And it is very hard for someone to advise on how to talk to someone they dont know. Besides, it mostly sounds like inexoerience, and we all had to go through that. DMing is a tough job to learn, and you have a very critical audience watching your every move. Think about that, and then talk to him.
MasonMurdoc 03-24-07, 11:46 AM	1.Can't 2.Can't 3.I am The first two I had mentioned As for the third, I will anyway, I was just hoping for the smallest thread of advice And it is very hard for someone to advise on how to talk to someone they dont know. I know, but I thought I'd see if anyboy could help anyway.
Magrus 03-24-07, 11:53 AM	I would suggest finding a way to point out the problems and in a way that makes it seem like you are trying to help him, not just point out how bad he is doing. Some people cannot take criticism at all however, and will be upset regardless. In which case, that is his problem. Also, not everyone has the ability to be a good DM. In all reality, it takes a variety of things, most of which can tend to contradict either other. Organization and attention for detail as well as rampant creativity, which tend to be rare to be found in one person all at once are the main things I have noticed necessary. It sounds like the guy is fumbling around in trying to be creative, and not paying attention to detail or getting organized. Maybe you should try talking with him, and saying you know DM'ing is hard, and it is. There's a lot of work involved in running a campaign. Ask him if he would like any pointers, or help organizing things. Often times I have a member of my group help prep my campaign if I am busy but I still end up being the DM because they like my games. I give them all of the work that isn't tied directly to important plot events. Working up the concepts for fodder within a given set of directions, drawing out a map, etc. He may shoot it down, get upset, or he may be genuinely grateful due to being overwhelmed and confused. Ask him if he's made notes to use to help him keep track of things. Maybe he doesn't, and thinks it will make him look bad if he does? The only way I get through my DM sessions is to make full out character sheets for all of the various enemies in combat encounters I have. The rest I do pretty much on the fly, and thats what I am good at. However, I like to have a fully fleshed out opponent so I know how they would react to any given situation the PC's might toss their way. From a surprise diplomacy attempt, to being able to jump around and swim away, or to just hacking or blasting the party. It's all there. My players who also DM from time to time think that's crazy and backwards, but thats how I operate, and they all like my games. Everyone just needs to find their own way to organize the massive amounts of information that they have to sort and process while running a game.
Dragonsblood 03-24-07, 12:37 PM	Ask the group if YOU could give DMing a try. Even if it's just for one session. I remember in highschool, my friends and I played L5R every week (samurai PnP RPG). The GM had a very specific way of running the game, and he did an OK job, but there was room for improvement. I asked if I could run a one shot adventure and everyone agreed. Everyone had a blast with me GMing, and my style seemed to open the eyes of the regular GM. When he went back to running his usual campaign he changed his technique to be much more dynamic and fun. As for myself, that was my first time GMing a RPG, and it helped me appreciate the difficulty of GMing by giving me that insider perspective. Also after GMing that game, the regular GM had a lot more respect for my input and ideas.
Azezel 03-24-07, 08:38 PM	My advice - link him to this thread. Make the point that he is your friend, but that don't excuse him from running a fun game. Show him that you had to turn to these forums for help, because of something he did. He's your friend, he will change (or to put it another way - if you talk to him, and he doesn't respect that, he's not your friend). Also - no gaming is better than bad gaming, and, no freinds is better than bad friends.
KillerVole 03-24-07, 08:39 PM	As to the specific problems stated, I would say that some are issues and some aren't. Sending a rogue on an atonement quest seems odd. Why did he have to atone? I can deal with devils leading demons as long as there's a reason. Ask your DM if demons and devils are enemies in his world. If not, there's no problem. I don't have a great deal of respect for World of Warcraft. I would not like to be in a quest using it as inspiration, but if it's just the map it would be fine. Unforetunately, it sounds like it's not. The devil disintegrating sounds like it came from FC1. He was trying to be more interesting, and forgot the ear thing. The ear is a bit odd. Why did he have to retrieve it? Was it needed for something? Most clerics (unless they're evil) don't randomly send people on dangerous quests.
Nova Fujit 03-24-07, 09:21 PM	Since you can leave or quit the group offer to DM, as said before. After all it really soulds like you know a deal more than the DM on the topics of how the world is suppose to flow. However the trouble I had when first starting out DMing was coming up with ideas to keep the game going after 3-4 sessions...it had occured to me that you can run a few hack and slash through a cave ruins or what-have-you while trying to think up the next big thing that happens =P just some friendly starter advice incase you happen to need it
MasonMurdoc 03-24-07, 09:28 PM	Why did he have to atone? Because he was a theif that got a grudge against an armouer so blew up the armoury of the camp we were in It was getting annoying for everyone else, so was doing it out of consideration for us all. I can deal with devils leading demons as long as there's a reason. Ask your DM if demons and devils are enemies in his world. If not, there's no problem. eah I know, but I just goy kiknd of *****y because i think this is all we'll be fighting, and I thought it would be more interesting with them fighting each other as well. I don't have a great deal of respect for World of Warcraft. I would not like to be in a quest using it as inspiration, but if it's just the map it would be fine. Unforetunately, it sounds like it's not. We got the quest at the Stormwind Cathedral ¬_¬. Scarlet Crusade hs been converted to the Jet Revolution, But only because another player (who's addicted to WoW also) told him to so it wasn't a complete copy The devil disintegrating sounds like it came from FC1. He was trying to be more interesting, and forgot the ear thing. The ear is a bit odd. Why did he have to retrieve it? Was it needed for something? Most clerics (unless they're evil) don't randomly send people on dangerous quests. I think the disitigrating was because I asked him to. He was, and he did. As for the ear, I think it's because in WoW when your sent to kill something you have to bring back a certain item to complete the quest. The dangerous quest was because the worlds been overrun with Demons/Devils and I think he's under the impression that's all we want to fight. Plus there was 5 oters with him, including a Paladin(Me)
KillerVole 03-24-07, 09:46 PM	It sounds like your DM really likes World of Warcraft. I had the misfortune of playing in a WoW based quest once. I came closer to leaving than any other quest I've ever played. Why don't you recommend that he check out the World of Warcraft roleplaying game. It's D&D based, and that way he can actually use his love and knowledge of Warcraft for good, instead of sticking it in some other setting where it doesn't belong.
danielinthewolvesden 03-25-07, 02:34 AM	If I try to mention any of this to him he'll go off on one, because he's under the impression I'm nasty to him(Even when I defend him) This was mainly just a rant but if anyone has any words of wisdom that aren't, leave the group, I'll greatly appreciate it. I can't leave the group, because we're all friends and it could danage my other frienships If he will "go off on you" if you try to discuss this like mature adults, then he is not your friend.:weep:
MasonMurdoc 03-25-07, 07:02 AM	It sounds like your DM really likes World of Warcraft. I had the misfortune of playing in a WoW based quest once. I came closer to leaving than any other quest I've ever played. Why don't you recommend that he check out the World of Warcraft roleplaying game. It's D&D based, and that way he can actually use his love and knowledge of Warcraft for good, instead of sticking it in some other setting where it doesn't belong. Is it a real book or is it just a threa dedicated to WoW D&D If so, where could I find it?
Matthew77 03-25-07, 03:04 PM	So he's using a non-standard campaign world where Clerics send people on quests and Devils can lead groups of Demons? Why is this a problem? If the actual gaming is fun, I'd spend more time learning about how stuff works in your DM's world and less time listening to grumpy traditionalists tell you how it "ought to be".
Hungry_Backpack 03-25-07, 04:39 PM	If the DM is new, which it seems he is, give him some advice (as people has said before me). Notes are very great to have. You can write many things there, all from what a room looks like to what the BBEG says when he is defeated. This makes it easy not to forget those pesky details, since you have decided how something happens before it happens. About the demons and devils thing: sure, you may think it would be funnier if they also were fighting eachother, but maybe the DM doesn't. Or maybe this is just a temporary peace between them and you (the party) can use this to your advantage. You can't really say that it is a bad choice if this has only happened once, because you don't know if the DM will use it more and then give a reason for it. The DM is NOT supposed to tell the players why everything is so and so when the players encounter something new. They have to find out why. Lastly, if you are not happy with the setting/quests the DM has given you, the best thing for you is to talk to him about it, tell him what you want to do. You should talk to the other players about this too and see if they also want to change the setting.
KillerVole 03-25-07, 05:26 PM	Is it a real book or is it just a threa dedicated to WoW D&D If so, where could I find it? It's real. You can find it at Borders, or most hobby stores. It's a bir rare, as there doesn't seem to be too much demand for it. More info here: http://www.white-wolf.com/warcraftrpg/
DarkNick 03-25-07, 06:26 PM	I don't really see what the problem is with his game. Yes, he is a little rough and sounds inexperienced (which will most likely naturally fix itself in time). He is probably frustrated at you pointing out his inconsistancies. His in experience means that it is easy for him to lose focus. There is probably some style clashes going on too. I think your problem is more that your expectiations and vision of what dnd should be like are not being reached, which is a perfectly valid reason for not enjoying yourself. One way to overcome this is to modify your expectations and try to play the game at a different level. Be there to have a laugh with your mates. Be outragous. Concentrate on the good bits. Play at a less serious level. Accept that things may not be 'proper' but it can still be fun. Prentend to be on acid.
Jenkins007 03-26-07, 01:23 AM	Pretend to be on acid. But not to hard, that could lead to more serious issues with your group. On a more serious note, I agree about talking to the other players, see if you can get them to talk to your GM for you if they share similar viewpoints. After that, just try to deal with it the best you can.
MasonMurdoc 03-26-07, 12:04 PM	Yeah, I know that he may just have a worl where Demons and Devils get along. I never said anything about the two of them fighting being funny. I in fact said the Devil/Demon thing wasn't a big deal, it just came up in my rant. I think(Not 100% certain, only 98%) that he's saving the planning untill to late and doesn't think about what he's doing. This was supposed to be my campaign but he got impatient because I wanted to plan, and he was saying he'll do it if I'm not ready because he can get it ready the friday coming. I eventually gave it to him though because I didn't feel just having Demons and evils would keep me intrested enough to DM it. He railroads, has nothing going on in the world that doesn't revolve around us, gets stroppy when someone asks for a discription, and is constantly getting distracted. If I try to give him advise he'll tell me to stick it where the sun don't shine. Yes, I realise these aren't the qualities of a friend but theres nothing I can really do about that. On a semi-side note, I'm playing a Paladin, which is not much fun unless you DM is at least knows what an adventure hook is. It's not that he's inexperianced, just that he doesn't ave the patience to plan for things. I'll say again, the Demon/Devil thing is not an issue, just the ramblings of me.
KillerVole 03-26-07, 01:33 PM	It sounds like your DM thinks he can improv, but can't, or is preparing too much. Some DMs spend so much time prepping that they railroad without noticing. Others railroad when the didn't prep at all, so they can think while the PCs are fighting or whatever. My recommendation is to try DMing yourself. Offer to run a quest in a month, on a weekend. See if you do better. If everyone has more fun, you should take over DMing again.
green_yawgmoth 03-26-07, 01:50 PM	no gaming is better than bad gaming, and, no freinds is better than bad friends. Sage advice. Your friend sounds like he doesn't know what he's doing, and just needs some direction/help. Offer to DM a game, maybe he'll pick up something from you. Also, saying you can't talk to him, if true, just proves how much you need to leave the game; something you can always do. No one's holding a gun to your head and forcing you to play. If they ask why you left, just tell them - you weren't having fun, so you left. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Tonio 03-26-07, 06:31 PM	If he will "go off on you" if you try to discuss this like mature adults, then he is not your friend.:weep: Oh come on... that's a little narrow-minded, isn't it? He might have a short temper, be immature, be stressed out for other reasons, or whatever... but that doesn't make him less of a friend. Regarding the subject of the thread, sounds to me like lack of experience, probably with overambition, too. If he's never DM'd a campaign, it might be biting off more than he can chew to have you fight demons and devils. I think that'd imply a higher level campaign, and for a new DM that's usually not a good idea. It's often difficult for players who've never DM'd to know what it's like to DM. I know, I tried it once, and found out I'm a sucky DM. Sounds to me like he didn't know what he was getting into, and is now struggling with it, while trying not to show it. My advice would be to scrap the campaign and start a new one, level 1. If you're worried about him thinking you're telling him "you can't cut it in a high level campaign", let him know YOU'RE overwhelmed and would prefer a lower level campaign, to get to know your character, and the world, better.
MasonMurdoc 03-26-07, 07:22 PM	It sounds like your DM thinks he can improv, but can't, or is preparing too much. Some DMs spend so much time prepping that they railroad without noticing. Others railroad when the didn't prep at all, so they can think while the PCs are fighting or whatever. My recommendation is to try DMing yourself. Offer to run a quest in a month, on a weekend. See if you do better. If everyone has more fun, you should take over DMing again. I don't think he's read through the DMG enough. I am currently preparing my own campaign. It was supposed to start this sunday, but I let someone else run a normal campaign before he starts his Theives Guild campaign (coz Chaotic is a ***** to DM for). I've been using some of the knowledge I've gained from browsing these forums. Oh come on... that's a little narrow-minded, isn't it? He might have a short temper, be immature, be stressed out for other reasons, or whatever... but that doesn't make him less of a friend. Regarding the subject of the thread, sounds to me like lack of experience, probably with overambition, too. If he's never DM'd a campaign, it might be biting off more than he can chew to have you fight demons and devils. I think that'd imply a higher level campaign, and for a new DM that's usually not a good idea. It's often difficult for players who've never DM'd to know what it's like to DM. I know, I tried it once, and found out I'm a sucky DM. Sounds to me like he didn't know what he was getting into, and is now struggling with it, while trying not to show it. My advice would be to scrap the campaign and start a new one, level 1. If you're worried about him thinking you're telling him "you can't cut it in a high level campaign", let him know YOU'RE overwhelmed and would prefer a lower level campaign, to get to know your character, and the world, better. Yeah, we started at level 6. This was kina required because when this was going to be my campaign, I asked what the players and I would all enjoy. But I ended up giving it to him because I thought that a Demon and Devil only campaign would not be fun to plan for, and eventually play. But my players wanted Demons and he intended to steal it if I hadn't planned in time anyway. Scraping the campaign is a no go because I think everyone else is enjoying it. If I told him that I'm overwhelmed or not enjoying it he'll...I'd like to refrain from saying, throw a strop. He go nasty because I made a joke about having my paladin slowly turnng evil converting the others and killing off the followers of Heironius(my current god). Sage advice. Your friend sounds like he doesn't know what he's doing, and just needs some direction/help. Offer to DM a game, maybe he'll pick up something from you. Also, saying you can't talk to him, if true, just proves how much you need to leave the game; something you can always do. No one's holding a gun to your head and forcing you to play. If they ask why you left, just tell them - you weren't having fun, so you left. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif Yeah he could be better with help, but only I seem to care. I may leave the game, but it's one of the only times I get to play. I should mention that he has DMed twice before. First time he got bored so I made one. Second, was at 5th level and we got Legacy Weapons, which we ha stolen of us as soon as we slept. Which kinda sucked for the Samurai, who felt he had to throw himself on his sword because he let it get stolen, but couldn't because of the same reason. It was kind of Semi-railroading, he was leading us to everywhere he wanted, but we went there of our own free will because of our weapons.
Xavorin 03-26-07, 08:49 PM	I know it's not my place to ***** about something like this but it's really making it hard to get into the game. First mistake he made was when he was sending the Rogue on an atonement quest. It was supposed to be an exorcism, then when he went back to the priest that gave him the quest it changed to "Kill the Demon, and bring back his ear"(Like you do in WoW) The next thing isn't really a bi deal but it bugged me anyway. He had a Devil leading Demons. Then when we killed the devil, it disintagrated. I had to mention the ear to him. Then the ranger took the ear instead(Not part of the problem, but I thought it worth mentioning) He's using the oW map which isn't really a problem for me. But I'm pretty sure he has no idea whats going on in the world around us. If I try to mention any of this to him he'll go off on one, because he's under the impression I'm nasty to him(Even when I defend him) This was mainly just a rant but if anyone has any words of wisdom that aren't, leave the group, I'll greatly appreciate it. I can't leave the group, because we're all friends and it could danage my other frienships Sorry, but I gotta say this: LOL :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D