Post/Author/DateTime	Post
magicbehere 07-27-04, 09:15 PM	I'm a relitivly new player to D&D, I have DMed mostly but I recently joined a group to play in and our DM is a little funny in the head. I joined an perviously started campaign, the party is at level 4 and consistes of Human Fighter, Gnome Wizard, Dwarf Cleric, Goblin Rogue and Me the Hengayokai (Crane) Sorcerer. This campaign has less RP in it than I like but I dont realy let it bother me. Now until this point the group has pritty much bad half the bad choices in the book, They make the stupid deals with the double crossers, they only check for traps 50% of the time, dont explore dungeons right and other such things. I join the group and start using my statigies, we set up defencable possions in dungeons to rest and gain our spells and HP (before the group always rushed through in a single day with what they had), we always check for traps, we set traps of our own, we make lots of sence motive checks and take dogs and pack mules with us into dungeons, we carry around extra throwing weapons just in case and other such things. Now the DM is all pissy and railroading because we see through all of his ploys and dont trust npcs on face value. We navagate dungeons systematily, set up baracades and check points as we go (we have all the stuff we need on our pack mules) and are alot more cuase, example we won't cross the roap bridge just because it will advance the story most likly I'll just fly over and we will build a newer one of our own. The Dm has tryed wiping out of convoy but he cant seem to, untill today when he just stated as we were falling back to one of our forward bases for defence from some monsters that more were there breaking it and here is the thing: It was a oneway 500 meter underground tunnel with one 2 ways in and out, we were going in one of the derections and would not have missed the monsters, those monsters could no burrow or dig through solid rock and they would have had to get by so many of a pit traps, treanchs and guard dogs it woul have been impossable for a group 3 of CR 2 monsters, espeil when the cleric Stone shaped the corrador behind us part of the way through the traps! Btw this was our scond week in that dungeon and we had supplies for 2 more. That ended the session, he was realy ****** off about it all and gave a speach about how what we were doing was not in the spirit of the game and not fun (we were having fun though, and RP alot more), me and one of the other players went back to my house and i guess the others went home. What can we do to make him not such a suck?
Harmor 07-27-04, 09:41 PM	Plenty of other groups to play with. I would happily invite you in our group if that was your philophy. I think your DM is used to "Hack and Slash" or "Bust the Door In" kind of games were players haphazardly go though adventures instead of your thoughtfully/planned/systematic approach. Let the GM know that that's your play style and if he continues to punish you for that type of playing then I would say just leave.
TheSilentF 07-27-04, 09:55 PM	Yeah, i play a rogue and think very differently than my other "Bust the door in" players. My DM always design dungeons around that style of play, and rarely they involve much thinking (But when they do involved puzzles and such.... Lets just say were lucky he only does "Bust in the door", or we wouldnt even be out of the first room....) No doors are trapped and/or locked, and he anticipates everything happened based on what my cleric does, and when i disagree with my cleric (the only other memeber of my party) it usuallys takes a really long time to sort out. I took time out of the whole adventure just to sneak into a clerics tower and plant a note to frame a monk. My DM didnt intend upon any of that happening, so he was pretty ******.
green_yawgmoth 07-27-04, 10:29 PM	You think, your DM doesn't. You have convinced the other PCs to think as well. Thus, your DM, who does not want to think, is mad at you. Pretty simple, eh? http://img30.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Nick Soapdish 07-27-04, 10:35 PM	I don't really see the DM's problem. Although I am a bit curious about how you're finding time to build all those pits and carry all that gear. You must have a ton of pack mules. And how'd the cleric cast Stone Shape? It's a 3rd level spell. And how do you know there wasn't a secret door? Did you have Detect Secret Doors cast?
Thorak 07-27-04, 10:39 PM	Your nice, systemic, loads-o-gear technique works really well. The problem is, the DM doesn't know how to counter it. Just throw a big nasty beast in there the PCs won't have a prayer of defeating, but which they can run away from. But will chase them. Combined with an entrance that has been closed, so you need to find another way out, this quickly throws any system to the winds, as the players frantically try and get out before the beast finds them and eats them. And pack mules? I can say that, maybe, you can get them to go into a dungeon with you, with Handle Animal checks. But the moment you reach a chasm, cliff, wall, or anything like that, you're screwed. At least if the DM has an ounce of sense. Even if you're trying to lower them down with ropes, and have a PC strong enough to do so, chances are he weighs less than the mule, meaning strong enough or no, he's getting pulled over the side. Unless he can brace himself, and that's not necessarily possible. Not to mention, I hope the DM is having monsters attack the mules just as often as PCs. And I wonder where you'll carry the stuff when a mule or two has died on you. I'm not saying it's not a good tactic. I'm saying it only works if conditions are perfect. The moment there's a good deal of pressure or some hefty physical obstacles, you're going to have to start improvising right quick.
SnowbearK 07-28-04, 12:57 AM	Actually Thorak, pack mules are usually quite happy to be led anywhere you want to go. They're one of the very few equine-esque creatures that will go down stairs for instance. Horses won't without a LOT of work. The only times they won't go somewhere is if they're being mistreated, hungry, thirsty, or are being presented with an obvious danger (ever see Shrek? Yeah, like that). As for the DM, if he can't grow with the party, he's going to wind up being left behind. Maybe he doesn't want to grow out of the fast-paced Kick-in-the-teeth-er-door style. Some DMs excell at a particular style, some excell at all styles, and some can do other styles but prefer to stick with their chosen one. For instance, I prefer the Epic Storyline style, but am capable of running Deep Immersion, Hack, High Fantasy, and Gritty Street styles without a problem, I just choose not to most of the time unless one or more of my players asks very nicely. :D Find out from your DM why he insists on sticking with the Hack style. Talk about it over a beer, soda, tea, whatever. Be friendly and respectful in voicing your concerns. And then, if he turns out to be a prick, pants him and run away laughing like a maniac. Just kidding, see if anyone else wants to DM. [edit: as an aside, it makes me very happy to learn that there are in fact other groups of intelligent gamers out there somewhere...it seems most gamers are stuck in video-game-hack-mode around where I live...Kudos to you!]
fruits and vegetables 07-28-04, 01:34 AM	donkeys are great! anybody but monks can get a donkey and cart at first level. I think it is 23GP total to have both. they are on my PC equipment grocery list. also, masterwork skill items are 50GP for +2 circumstance to specified skill check. I will buy some of those when given the chance.
angryman 07-28-04, 02:30 AM	Well, I tend to plan if my character is a planner and i bash doors down if my character is like that...i was playing a Tricksy Enchanter and "somebody told me" there was a Mighty Magic Artifact for the taking in an icky dungeon. I established that there was no hurry- it had been there for thousands of years. So I spent weeks scrying, scouting, mapping, dominating lackeys and generally planning. I got the artifact relatively easily and, except for the blood crazed barbarian, all enjoyed the meticulous planning. Other times I just charge in and bash stuff. Depends on my character.
Thorak 07-28-04, 06:41 AM	Stairs aside, I still think you're screwed if you rely on a donkey or other horsey animal to carry your necessary gear. Sure, you can convince it to go down stairs and through narrow dank hallways and such. I assumed that would be the case. But one cliff, up or down, even if it's 10 feet high, and the pack mule is stuck. Unless one of your PCs is able to lift the beast, and even if they can physically lift it, they'd have big troubles trying to hoist or lower it with a rope without being pulled over. Pits, similarly, can leave the beast stuck. Or any big monster that scares it, so that it takes off down the hallway back outside, probably faster than any PC can move. It's a good tactic. As long as you're expecting it to fail, and only relying on it for absolutely ridiculous amounts of gear you're going to toy with as long as you can, not necessary items to your survival.
Yuffie 07-28-04, 07:01 AM	Few things. First, as was said, there are plenty of places in a dungeon that a pack mule simply cannot navigate unless you use magic on them to shrink, levitate, or do any number of other things. Dungeons are not just "flat rooms connected by doors and hallways". And although it's the entry-level approach to D&D... dungeons (or caves or whatever) really aren't usually where the average D&D group spends most of their time, later on. Second, having dogs around is going to make it extremely hard to sneak up on anything. Claws ticking on the stone or marble floors, barking, whining... and if they get wet they stink up the whole dungeon. :D So dogs are probably going to be far more trouble than they're worth after the first couple levels (where a trained wardog is still a decent ally). Plus, a single fireball is going to roast your entire Animal Army. Moving on... It sounds like your DM is just not very good at dealing with issues. There are game balance problems (like high level spellcasters being just flat out busted-broken) and then there are issues where it's a matter of the DM not being creative or can-think-on-their-feet enough to handle a party that is extra-cautious. Your DM currently has to deal with the latter. However, there is such a thing as being too cautious and turning D&D into less of a storytelling epic... and more of a "PCs vs the DM" situation. Because if you keep pushing it in that direction... believe me, the DM's going to get fed up and just say "alright, you turn the corner and there are eight beholders staring at you, and behind you a dragon loses her invisibility spell to the antimagic cones and uses wing-buffet to knock you into the beholders who... *roll roll roll roll roll roll roll* ... kill every last one of you." You don't want your games to turn into "PCs vs the DM". The DM will win, particularly if you frustrate them endlessly instead of talking this problem out. It's not just a problem with the DM here. You as PCs have to approach the game with the intent to roleplay characters, not to combatively attack the DM's plans exclusively. If I were your DM, I'd use your predictable, military, SOP style against you. He already knows exactly what you're going to do. He knows how you deal with problems. It's easy enough for him to design any number of situations where your standard operating procedure would leave you open and defenseless to certain kinds of problems. Hell, I'd like to see the animal brigade wiped out by Snilloc's Snowball Swarm, followed by someone raising all the animals from the dead with some kind of necromancy to attack you. ^_- What can we do to make him not such a suck? With an attitude like that, it's not really surprising he's gotten frustrated. We're only getting one side of the story here, but it already sounds like another "both sides need to re-examine themselves before anything's going to get accomplished" situation.
Sphyre 07-28-04, 08:22 AM	Where do you live? I'd love to have you guys as players :) My players are more his style... less thinking, more combat, less roleplay... :( Oh well. Try to find a new DM, as DM I love to do pretty much the exact same thing as the players do, think. Develop strategies and make my players really think, which forces me to think in the same. I'm sorry to say, but your dogs and stuff would die pretty easy to a fireball trap or something. Sleeping orcs in the cave/dungeon? not anymore, those dogs are going to alert them pretty easily. They'd fall to traps pretty easily too. Just have a 2 pit traps, one in front and one behind the person who triggers it, at a minor delay. (5 seconds) Then compound on that with a squishing wall trap. Compound on that with a wall of force at the edges of the pit traps so if you try to jump across you hit the wall and fall. Course this would all be in the CR 7 area, but one can still create more fun traps that are designed to isolate party members and unleash death.
fruits and vegetables 07-28-04, 09:26 AM	when you can't use donkeys anymore you have 2 options. 1. Donkey jerky. 2. Leave them. It may slow you down to carry any loot but they are 8 freaking GP, leave'em. Donkies are great!
magicbehere 07-28-04, 10:00 AM	Just because it was asked more than once: We live in Toronto, and in a few of the communities around it. The cleric cast stone shape (i think) as his Earth Domain spell (I guess, we dont look at each others sheets) and he might be at level 5 (again I asumed we were all the same level) The stratigies you said are good for dealing with our style but this DMs dungeons are practicly all one (or two) level of conected rooms, only a few have been any differnt and most of them were still a little to refined for caves. It also might help to mention the DM is 13 and most of the other players are older (I'm 17), He one of the other players little brother. If hes so imature he could not handle me and his brother flirting how could I expect him to handle me as a player?
Yuffie 07-28-04, 10:10 AM	Originally posted by magicbehere It also might help to mention the DM is 13 and most of the other players are older (I'm 17), That alone explains a lot. Hell, I changed a lot as an RPer between 17 and 24. The difference between a 13 year old and a 17 year old is light years apart in terms of how they think and react. Personally, I don't think any 13 year old should be DMing... at least not for an actual group that's expecting them to DM as anything more than giving them a chance to try it out. You're being extremely hard on him. You're both children, but he's much younger (MUCH younger), and in terms of roleplaying, he's barely an infant. He shouldn't be DMing for a group, even his own age. Seriously. At this point I'm trying not to be ****** off at you. You're expecting way... WAY too much. He's a little kid. He doesn't even have the mental ability to think on the same level as you... and given from what's been said, you need to take a step back, yourself, and look at yourself as a player before you pick on others.
magicbehere 07-28-04, 10:21 AM	Maybe its the fact that I've played in another campaign run by a 13 year old (I was 16 at the time) that was good and that made me expect more from him, it was a modern campaign not D&D but the same principles should apply. Edit: It also might help to add his brother talked me into joining his little brothers campaign, not like I sought it out just to pick on the kid.
Arrowhen 07-28-04, 10:48 AM	It also might help to mention the DM is 13 and most of the other players are older (I'm 17), He one of the other players little brother. If hes so imature he could not handle me and his brother flirting how could I expect him to handle me as a player? For crying out loud, give the poor kid a break. Imagine *you* were DMing for, say, a bunch of 30 to 40 year old professional game designers. You'd feel pretty overwhelmed, wouldn't you? That's just how he must feel. At thirteen he needs to be commended for having the maturity and commitment to DM at *all.* A lot of thirteen year olds don't have the discipline to sit through a game of Monopoly, let alone do something as complex and stressful as running a D&D game. If you're not happy with his DMing style, why don't *you* offer to take over for a while. I'm sure he could use a break from the stress of trying to live up to your unreasonable expectations. Besides, it'll give you the chance to impress his brother with your maturity.
BlackFiend 07-28-04, 10:48 AM	You sound like 2 immature boys playing D&D and fussing when they don't get their way. Truth be told, he doesn't need to state a reason for the Creatures to attack. May be you are intruding on a high level wizards next foray area. He teleported them in to tear down whatever and kill who ever did the affront. You really have no clue and may never find out anyway at your low level. Or perhaps they too were hiding somewhere and let you pass the first time. They bode their time and when it was right, attacked. Play the game and enjoy the curve balls. Thats what its all about. If every pitch from the DM was a straight pitch. Expect him to toss sliders, fastballs, curves, or slow pitches whenever he so chooses to make things challenging and fast paced.
magicbehere 07-28-04, 10:56 AM	"You sound like 2 immature boys playing D&D and fussing when they don't get their way." You forget the take into account the rest of the party, that would be 5 immature boys and 1 immature girl (she was the most immature about it because she paid for most of the stuff at that base) because I wasn't the only one complaining about what he did. I dont know what you ment by all of those words in the last sentence as I dont do sports but I think it means just go with what ever and dont complain, right?
eRaz0r 07-28-04, 12:51 PM	Ideally you want a DM to challenge you, right ? I don't mean someone to throw nasty things at you just because they can, but someone who can make a game that stretches you to your limit in thinking around the problems. In any case, how are you feeding your pack-mules ? Have you any idea how big that much feed is ? A months worth of oats and stuff can weigh quite a bit too. Seriously, the logistics of what your characters have accomplished is a little bit of a stretch, and now your complaining that the DM has contrived a hole in your plan. Be happy it worked that long - it sounds like your DM is adapting after all.
Super Guy 07-28-04, 01:52 PM	Heh. The replies here remind me of a mob. Regardless, I think it's not entirely the DM's fault and not entirely the players' fault. Truthfully, you can't expect much from a 13 year old. However, if you've played in another campaign with a perfectly competent 13 year old, you have no strong reason to doubt that another 13 year old will do poorly. The DM seems frustrated and looking for any way to screw the PCs. That's typical of a 13 year old. I can also see why the players are frustrated. You can confront your DM and tell him about how you feel, however... If I had a 13 year old DM, I would instead simply undermine the campaign. Get his goat so that he makes ridiculous things and annoys the players, then have the campaign collapse and look back on it fondly, laughing about all the things that happened, and hey, no hard feelings. Sure, it may seem cruel, but I've done it before and it works (though I didn't do it with a 13 year old) :D
devinmdp 07-28-04, 02:35 PM	The ultimate problem here is that the DM is presenting you with a dungeon with no time constraints. I gather this from your mention of a basecamp and making all these lengthy precautions. Any dungeon that doesn't have a set time limit is almost certainly easy for PCs to break. After all...think about it. As a DM, you have to design the encounters on the chance that the PCs will try to handle multiple encounters in a given day. However, if the PCs have the luxury of retiring after every single encounter, then they will defacto beat the dungeon easily, over time. OTOH, if the DM reacts to this by upping each encounter to be of suitable challenge to the party, then you are FORCING the party to retire after every encounter....challenging but possibly tedious. What your DM needs to do is progress beyond "there's an old dungeon over there do you want to go explore it" to designing actual scenarios with plots and timelines. If that is beyond your DM, then at the very least he needs to make these dungeons cohesive enough that every time the PCs retire, the dungeon becomes more and more organized against them. And this needs to often be made very apparent to thick-headed players (i.e. have them overhear planning sessions or even capture a journal from a bad guy that describes how the dungeons is gearing up to defend against the intruders. If these dungeons are just a bunch of random monsters in random set piece rooms with little raison d'etre or cohesiveness, then the players, if they have the patience, are going to defeat the dungeon easily. I almost never design open ended scenarios. There is always some time constraint. Examples in the last three scenarios in my campaign: 1. PCs learn a red dragon has been hired by orcs to assassinate a copper dragon. Time constraint: If the PCs don't act in time the copper dragon (a potentially powerful ally) dies. 2. PCs want to kill an orc warlord who has organized orcish armies to blockade a dwarven city. Time constraint: If the blockade goes on for long enough, a rival merchant house will corner the iron and gems markets. 3. The PCs need to raid a thieves' guild to uncover corruption in their merchant house. Time constraint: After a foray into the guild, the thieves are likely to either organize and set up some very wicked traps, or flee, taking evidence of the corruption with them. After all, think about it. A dungeon is usually composed of a lot of monsters that, taken as a single encounter, would kill the PCs. The PCs' advantage is mostly in surprise and defeating the enemy in detail. if the PCs wish to surrender the advantage of surprise by retreating, then the DM should have adequate means to make them pay a price for that. Of course, retreating at reasonable intervals is fine. But if the PCs are retreating too much, then the DM must respond. The best way is to have the denizens conduct a raid on the PCs' camp, while they are asleep or out of spells. I don't care how many traps have been set, there have to be ways in and out of the base camp, or the PCs themselves couldn't do it. The simplest way might be to have a large group of monsters wait for the PCs to leave and then, if the way to the base cmap is too trap filled, simply loiter at the closest safe spot to the camp. Then they wait for the PCs to return after a hard day's fighting. Low on hp and low on spells, the monsters ambush them with a nice well-laid ambush. That should challenge ANY party. Devin
Thorak 07-28-04, 02:58 PM	To bounce off Devin's post, my current campaign has been very much a time-constrained one, partially due to my character (which I'll cover shortly). It started easy enough. Weird little things happening in a small village. First 'dungeon' we were in was a set of caves, with a bear and a small green dragon, some cave fishers, and hordes of centipedes. That was all bad enough, but could have been dealt with. Except there was an orc army that had moved in overtop of the cave after we entered, looking for something that was inside. So now, we had constant orc patrols, and eventually orc raiding parties trying to find who was killing the patrols. We're all levels 2-3, so there's no question of finding anywhere really safe to sit it out. We can't. Our mage ran out of spells relatively early, despite hoarding them, and the adventure struggled along with everyone at 2-3HP or less for over half the time we were in there. And we can't just leave, because the orcs know we're in there and have capped the cave entrance, and the cap has arrow slits so we can't approach, let alone pick the lock, without getting fired at. Well, eventually we got out. And made it back to town. One problem; we'd overheard the orcs talking, and they were going to attack a town the next night. This town being the closest, we assumed it was us. So we rally the villagers and get ready for battle. And rest for 1 day. The attack hits. My character, the paladin, decided that someone needed to guard the church cellar the women and children were hidden in, and thus was outside what was expected to be the main attack area. Well, the others did fine, decimating their opponents with minimal PC losses, at least, and more orc dead than NPCs by a good margin. However, half the force, including all the 'special' troops, had attacked the church instead. Seems like, after missing whatever they tried to nab at the caverns, there was something in the church they wanted too. I manage to hold them off until the others finish up and hear the screams and come running, and we save the day. Except that, later that night after the women and children had been removed, we see a shadowy figure enter the church. Sure 'nuff, it's an orc, or something. He charges in, slams a strange object into a couple holes in the basement wall, and the floor falls out from beneath him. He dies in the fall. Goodie, a massive underground complex buried beneath a church. That's gotta be safe. Well, we decide to wait another day before entering, since we're all wiped from the battle. So, that night, unearthly screams start coming from the church.... And so on, and so on. My character, as I mentioned before, isn't really helping things either. As a paladin, he can't exactly turn his back if doing so might result in innocents being hurt. So, he's constantly charging in to save the day, and everyone else has to come charging in after to save his butt. But it's really, really easy to keep a party moving and incapable of resting, especially if they're low-level enough to not have access to spells like Rope Trick and Wall of Stone, to create safe hidey holes.
devinmdp 07-28-04, 03:09 PM	And to bounce back, let me stress that the issue of resting BETWEEN adventures is somewhat different. While the campaign Thorak describes sounds quite exciting and well laid out, from my own experience players do get frustrated if they eventually can't have down time for their characters. Especially for wizards, who need down time to craft items and scribe scrolls and what have you. I personally try to vary the nature of my scenarios and the intensity and density of them. I might have a stretch of four sessions of gaming where a tight group of scenarios and events follow closely one after the other with little party down time. Then, the fifth session, I might have a year go by with nothing. There is a saying in the military that combat is days and days of utter boredom punctuated by a few minutes of stark raving terror and chaos. I try to stress to my players that the PCs have lives and needs and wants outside of just adventuring, and that anyone who tried to adventure 24/7 would eventually snap under the strain and stress of it all. Rather, I tell my players to view adventuring not as a job, but as something that happens to interrupt the normal flow of the PCs' lives. Devin
Arrowhen 07-28-04, 03:16 PM	If I had a 13 year old DM, I would instead simply undermine the campaign. Get his goat so that he makes ridiculous things and annoys the players, then have the campaign collapse and look back on it fondly, laughing about all the things that happened, and hey, no hard feelings. Yeah, we all know what paragons of self-confidence *we* were at age 13. Face it, a 13 year old kid isn't going to "look back fondly" on that kind of abuse, he's going to be hurt and upset. He'll either turn into one of the bitter 'screw the players before they screw me' DMs we read about EVERY DAMN DAY on these boards or, more likely, he'll never play again. So you'd pick on somebody until he left the hobby altogether, and for what? For having the courage to try to run a game for a bunch of older kids? Real mature.
Arrowhen 07-28-04, 03:18 PM	Bah, double post.
magicbehere 07-28-04, 04:07 PM	I think I'm going to offer the DM help, possably let him join my Modern campaign for insperation.
mercurial67 07-28-04, 04:24 PM	Originally posted by magicbehere That ended the session, he was realy ****** off about it all and gave a speach about how what we were doing was not in the spirit of the game and not fun (we were having fun though, and RP alot more The best thing to do is sit down with him and tell him you ARE having fun. Then ask him if he is acting as DM because he wants to have a good time or because he wants to try and defeat/kill/whatever the characters. If he is being the DM to try and defeat the characters, then he should be a player so he can defeat the monsters. If he is there to have a good time and present challenges to the players, then he is succeeding since you say the group is enjoying themselves. As long as the players are having a good time, the DM is doing his job. Any DM who holds onto a pet NPC/plot/or anything else in his world is making a recipe for disaster since the players are almost always going to be able to outsmart the DM (think about it, it's 4+ players against 1 DM - the DM can only think of so many possibilities). I have had NPCs which were supposed to be reoccuring die because of actions of the players, the villians plan figured sooner than they should have, and plots hijacked because the players decided they should check something out which has nothing to do with what was going on. As a DM you MUST be ready to toss everything you have worked on at a moments notice and just roll with it. It can be frustrating to what carefully laid plans come tumbling down, but stuff happens.
Arrowhen 07-28-04, 04:26 PM	I think I'm going to offer the DM help, possably let him join my Modern campaign for insperation. Yay! That's more like it.
Thorak 07-28-04, 04:47 PM	Originally posted by devinmdp And to bounce back, let me stress that the issue of resting BETWEEN adventures is somewhat different. While the campaign Thorak describes sounds quite exciting and well laid out, from my own experience players do get frustrated if they eventually can't have down time for their characters. Especially for wizards, who need down time to craft items and scribe scrolls and what have you. I personally try to vary the nature of my scenarios and the intensity and density of them. I might have a stretch of four sessions of gaming where a tight group of scenarios and events follow closely one after the other with little party down time. Then, the fifth session, I might have a year go by with nothing. There is a saying in the military that combat is days and days of utter boredom punctuated by a few minutes of stark raving terror and chaos. I try to stress to my players that the PCs have lives and needs and wants outside of just adventuring, and that anyone who tried to adventure 24/7 would eventually snap under the strain and stress of it all. Rather, I tell my players to view adventuring not as a job, but as something that happens to interrupt the normal flow of the PCs' lives. Devin We have been getting frustrated at not being able to rest and get some stuff done. My character, despite easily being able to afford it from his share of treasure, can't even get a suit of full plate armor, or even half plate, because the village blacksmith doesn't have any on hand, and it'll be weeks before he can slap together a suit. By which time, at this pace, I'll be level 18. And the DM's having to not-so-subtly cheat to keep the characters alive, because he's pushing us so hard. It's fine, he keeps it 'reasonable', but a lot of that had to do with having no cleric handy until just recently. Though I am looking forward to our other DM starting back up his campaign again. He's a bit more mildly-paced, though just a bit.
Nick Soapdish 07-28-04, 08:23 PM	Originally posted by magicbehere It also might help to mention the DM is 13 and most of the other players are older (I'm 17), He one of the other players little brother. If hes so imature he could not handle me and his brother flirting how could I expect him to handle me as a player? That does help. The age difference explains a ton. Yes, 13-year olds can DM, but they'll fit in better with a party of 13-year old players. In my increasingly hazy memory of those years, there's a pretty decent difference in maturity and focuses from 13 to 17. So he's likely to have that kick-down-the-door style of gaming and probably a bit intimidated by the older players. So he's going to require some handling. It might be simply that he's not mature enough to DM for older players and the players aren't mature enough to play with a younger DM. Helping him out and letting him play in the d20 Modern campaign could help, but make sure that your "helping" isn't preachy. Or that you aren't helping when he doesn't need it. I'm really bad about both of those myself (although I think I'm getting better). The cleric must be 5th level then. It's also a 3rd level Earth spell (unless he's getting it from some other domain).