Post/Author/DateTime	Post
aekilez 09-09-06, 04:36 PM	what is a player to do if your dm is only allowing you access to a phb for everything you want to start off, forced to be a class and has the pregenerated skills but only 200 gold to being with at lvl 6?
etraikov 09-09-06, 04:47 PM	find a new dm?
Archangel62 09-09-06, 04:59 PM	find a new dm? I'd also add asking why they want the players so weak.
Shaggy_Shaggs 09-09-06, 05:05 PM	only allowing you access to a phb for everything you want to start offThis I could deal with, though I'd be sad. (No goblin? :bigeyes: )only 200 gold to being with at lvl 6This I'd be wary of, but I'd ask him about it and if his answer was suitable, I'd go for it. forced to be a class and has the pregenerated skillsThis is an immediate dealbreaker. I play my characters, not the DM's, and that's non-negotiable. I doubt I'm the only one.
mathogre 09-09-06, 05:06 PM	what is a player to do if your dm is only allowing you access to a phb for everything you want to start off, forced to be a class and has the pregenerated skills but only 200 gold to being with at lvl 6? What do you want to do? You can still buy alot of things from the phb with 200gp, including weapons, armor, and adventuring supplies. If you know the adventure or campaign you'll be in, you could possibly orient your equipping accordingly. Turn it around. Perhaps the dm thinks it's lame to depend so heavily on magical items, and wants the group to really work together in the adventure. It could be a fun game. It sounds as if it will be a challenge! If it was my current dm, he's a good guy. I'd do it.
HalasterAteMyHamster 09-09-06, 05:15 PM	find a new dm? Gotta agree. Sounds like your DM wants to tell a story rather than run a game.
Aeromus 09-09-06, 05:32 PM	Well first I'd make the character, and game once or twice to see if maybe it didn't all work out in the end.
ArcTan 09-09-06, 05:40 PM	Low-magic, stripped-down, low-wealth game? I could dig that, though it might not be everyone's cup of tea. If you find constrained and difficult choices to be un-fun, you might want to leave now -- but you might also want to give it a shot and see if that's what you like (let your DM know that you are considering leaving, though, so it doesn't blindside him when you do). Gotta agree. Sounds like your DM wants to tell a story rather than run a game. All games are also stories. Some stories are about characters with tons of magical loot pulling off cool tricks. Some stories are about poor characters struggling against tough situations with the mundane stuff they have. Either one could be a lot of fun or very stupid, depending on how it's done.
Daosus 09-09-06, 06:33 PM	It's the character requirement that's the biggest pain, I think. Talk to the DM. See if he will settle for advising you on character choices, instead of simply giving you a character sheet. I personally wouldn't play with a DM who forces me to play his character, but some degree of communication between player and DM during character creation is good.
theotherdraxen 09-09-06, 06:41 PM	This is an immediate dealbreaker. I play my characters, not the DM's, and that's non-negotiable. I doubt I'm the only one. Right on, man. :clap: If the DM wants to make a character, then he should play it too. If he wants me to play a character, he'd D*mn well better let me make my own. Remember to vote with your feet. Tell the DM what you don't like first, but if nothing changes, then find another way to play D&D.
Copper_Coins 09-09-06, 08:02 PM	Just what MAY be the DMs side of the story: There may be a reason he's only letting you play from the Phb, does he have any other books? It's kinda hard to play with books you don't have :D Hmm. Maybe he's choosing your skills for a good reason, like, some skills will play an important role in his campaign, and others will not. So, say he has multiple pits that need jumping somewhere in his campaign, the characters with low jump will surely fail! Forced to be a class... That's bad, but maybe he needs to use plot hooks connected to said classes, my DM once asked a player to be a Paladin (he didn't mind.) in order to set up a plot ( in our case, we set out on a mission for his church). Umm. Lets see... The 200g thing might also play a role in him not having any other books, if I'm not mistaken, there isn't a wealth table in the Phb (Don't quote me on this one, I currently don't have access to books), and he may just be using the character creation starting gold thingymabob. Just a note: I don't actually think that any of these (except maybe the first and last one) are a reasonable argument. I'm just trying to input what may be his side of the story. Or her side of the story. I'm not sexist. Honest. :D
Seerow 09-09-06, 08:14 PM	Well in a thread on the class forum he said that the DM was restricting him because he tore through things in the last campaign. He is apparently allowed to choose feats though, as he was asking for advice on what feats and stuff to take there. The only thing it seems that's pregenerated is ability scores (which can be arranged) and the actual class. And Copper: The Wealth Table is the the DMG. If he's DMing and doesn't have that, he should reconsider DMing.
Copper_Coins 09-09-06, 08:27 PM	And Copper: The Wealth Table is the the DMG. If he's DMing and doesn't have that, he should reconsider DMing. Yes, I was going to post that, but was still unsure of where the wealth table is (I'm not a DM myself.)
Dei 09-09-06, 08:30 PM	I agree that the rules do seem a bit heavy handed but if in the past the group's been cranked up and twinked out with PrC and third party material up the wazoo I can fully appreciate and support why he would do such a thing. It's fully possible for players to simply become super-powered beyond what the DM can reasonably form a plot around and at that point the game just looses any sort of fun unless you're looking for the kind of cheap hack-n-slash thrill more easily found in a computer game. DnD should be about more than the special effects budget and frankly I think that a level 6 party with all mundane equipment could be terrific fun to play. All the enginuity(sp?) and careful planning required of low level with all the variety and skills of 6th. Talk to him about the class thing and he may relent but don't call him lame for trying to make sure a game stays balanced. I'm not saying he's right or that he's even put that much thought into it. It could be he's simply thick as the wall and these limitations have no logical basis whatsoever. But I'd definately say give him a chance, roleplay, think things through IC and try to remember DnD isn't just about steamrolling through everything that comes across your path and I think that's what the DM's trying to force you away from. If that kind of gaming is exactly what you're after, I hear Gauntlet Legends or Titan Quest are good. Peace Out
King Bulba 09-09-06, 08:35 PM	All games are also stories. Some stories are about characters with tons of magical loot pulling off cool tricks. Some stories are about poor characters struggling against tough situations with the mundane stuff they have. Either one could be a lot of fun or very stupid, depending on how it's done. No, you are wrong. Stories are one directional starting with a begining, middle and have an end. They are passive and not active for the reader since only the story teller controls the story. Stories can be enteraining to listen to but they are not good games. Why? because stories are controlled 100% by the storyteller. Players don't have options because everything is predetermined by the storyteller. There already is an end to the story so how can you kill the BBEG when the story says he is alive later on in the book? Now a good game once it is over can be a story, since it has a begining middle and an end but not untill its over.
King Bulba 09-09-06, 08:45 PM	Hmm. Maybe he's choosing your skills for a good reason, like, some skills will play an important role in his campaign, and others will not. So, say he has multiple pits that need jumping somewhere in his campaign, the characters with low jump will surely fail! I know you were joking but wanted to comment hehe. That's an example of a railroading DM. He is telling a story and forcing the players to fit it. I can go with a lot of things, Low magic, low wealth, but DM choosing classes and skills crosses a line. That is railroading at its worst. Why have players if they cant do anything?
Shaggy_Shaggs 09-09-06, 08:59 PM	I can go with a lot of things, Low magic, low wealth, but DM choosing classes and skills crosses a line. That is railroading at its worst. Why have players if they cant do anything?Well, an aspiring novelist that can't get any publishers to return his calls has to have some readers/audience, right? :nonono:
Roivas 09-09-06, 09:11 PM	I'd look at the class/race/feat choices first,if I could live with them I'd try the game, but I'd have misgivings. I much prefer to make the characters I play myself, but I make it cler to the GM he has the right to say no to any feat, race, or skill coices I make. It might be his game, but remember it's your game too, don't let the GM walk all over you. The wealth thing would bug me a bit, but I'd let it go without more than a passing comment. As far as PHB only, it can be a good idea to limit the player's options to save the GM some time writing background areas for his world to fit your chracter. In my game I ban certain races, clases, and templates because I don't want them in my game. Seems to work as I let my players make anything that isn't banned. But the PHB helps beginner GMs stop problems, like psionics, before they start.
King Bulba 09-09-06, 09:33 PM	It might be his game, but remember it's your game too, don't let the GM walk all over you. Q.F.T. But the PHB helps beginner GMs stop problems, like psionics, before they start. Well psionics isn't a problem unless the DM/Player doesn't follow the rules. Can't blame the system when someone use it incorrectly. But yes Core only is a good way to learn the game.
Norsesmithy 09-09-06, 10:42 PM	what is a player to do if your dm is only allowing you access to a phb for everything you want to start off, forced to be a class and has the pregenerated skills but only 200 gold to being with at lvl 6? Slip him some Ruffies, and trick him into thinking he murdered someone.* *don't actually do this.** **Unless he lives at home, and you get his folks to play along and you put around 150 lbs of poorly packaged pork on his freezer.*** ***Not even then.
tharivol266 09-09-06, 10:48 PM	there are several reasons to have you be core only. he could have bad expiriences with non core PCs or there could be someone who needs the game to be simpler for the moment. dont complain. with the gp alotment it could be that he wants to throw treasure at you in game or has specific things he wants you to have without going beyond the normal gp/level limits. maybe some of these things will be legacy items. dont complain scream at him about the pre-gen characters though.
a_psh 09-10-06, 12:26 AM	This is solely an abstract point, not one about the actual GM/game in question...No, you are wrong. Stories are one directional starting with a begining, middle and have an end. They are passive and not active for the reader since only the story teller controls the story.Or you could say that a story is any recollection of information or events through the lens of human experience, given that the term is so ill-defined. Lots of folks in various fields do, actually. D&D is definitely a sequence of events. Given that all D&D games are about how we envision a reality rather than what our actual reality is like, what happens in a D&D game is definitely deep affected by the experiences that players bring to the table. So by that definition, it is a narrative or story. By your own definitions, a D&D campaign has a beginning, a middle, and an end (though sometimes the end is a pointless anticlimax when everyone just stops caring about the game). Time certainly flows in one direction in most of them. Far more rigidly than it does in a story. Even the simplest form of verbal storytelling, however, assumes a pretty active audience:For general purposes in Semiotics and Literary Theory, a 'narrative' is a story or part of a story. A story is any form of text, regardless of medium, describing a sequence of events caused and experienced by characters, some of whom may be fictional. It may be spoken, written or imagined, and it will have one or more points of view representing some or all of the participants or observers. In stories told verbally, there is a person telling the story, a narrator whom the audience can see and hear, and who adds layers of meaning to the text nonverbally. The narrator also has the opportunity to monitor the audience's response to the story and to modify the manner of the telling to clarify content or enhance listener interest. This is distinguishable from the written form in which the author must gauge the readers likely reactions when they are decoding the text and make a final choice of words in the hope of achieving the desired response. Stories can be enteraining to listen to but they are not good games. Why? because stories are controlled 100% by the storyteller.A good storyteller modifies his spoken story to better suit the audience. See above. Also... Players don't have options because everything is predetermined by the storyteller.Most explanations of the RPG paradigm describe the players as miniature narrators in their own right, not an audience, and the game as a collaborative story. It has been said that rules and mechanics exist to facilitate conflict resolution in order to enable this collaborative storytelling. (In other words, D&D is a big game of "Let's pretend!" with a set of rules that's designed to keep it from turning into a lot of "Did not! Did too! Did not! Did too!"). There already is an end to the story so how can you kill the BBEG when the story says he is alive later on in the book?You're interpreting the word "story" way too rigidly. Now a good game once it is over can be a story, since it has a begining middle and an end but not untill its over.A story is a story while you listen to it or read it, and you can't see the end until you get there, either. For example, if you're reading some shlocky fantasy trilogy, it's likely that the ending hasn't even been written when you pick up book 1... that doesn't make it not a story, does it? I don't see why using the word "story" to describe a campaign naturally means you have to presuppose that a specific ending has already been made. After all, D&D players have been saying "Just because it's a game doesn't mean there's such a thing as winning and losing" for years now. Most people in the RPG industry would describe their games as vehicles for some kind of collaborative storytelling. So there is no error of terminology on ArcTan's part. ... Moreover, I do find that games with some sort of goal or theme are much better than games without one: "Let's play out some kind of gritty revenge fantasy set in magical feudal Japan" makes for a better game than just "Let's play D&D, but set in Japan". This works simply because the players and the GM are all on the same page: everyone knows what kind of hooks and scenes and tone to expect and works together to create them, the player characters fit together better, and group members can get a feel for whether a game will be interesting to them right off the bat. A lot better than just starting cold and realizing that one player is trying to be comedic while another goes for Indiana Jones and the third is creating an angsty, serious character. And that theme is really the kernel of "story". As soon as you have something directed, something that tries to fit a particular style or aesthetic, that's pretty much "story" right there. A GM running your character for you? Yeah, that's no fun. But nothing about the word "story" is supposed to imply that. Instead, the point of calling this thing that you're making a "story" is to emphasize that it has a certain style and feel and that you're all coming together to tell it rather than tugging in different directions to see who can exert the most control (which is a pointless exercise since either the game breaks down completely or the GM "wins" and it becomes the kind of stupid railroad you seem to dislike so much in the first place).
King Bulba 09-10-06, 04:49 AM	You're interpreting the word "story" way too rigidly. And you are interpreting it too flexable. LOL we are just arguing semantics. So lets move on since if we dont then we will have 5 pages of nothing since we seem to hold polar opinions. Moreover, I do find that games with some sort of goal or theme are much better than games without one: I agree with that, but just because there is a goal doesn't mean there is an "ending". When there is an ending PCs are driven at it since that's how the story goes. It is one thing to have a general direction IE goal but another to have a specific end envisioned since it leads to (imo 99.999% of the time) railroading. A GM running your character for you? Yeah, that's no fun. But nothing about the word "story" is supposed to imply that. We will have to agree to disagree.
raidzuo 09-10-06, 05:05 AM	what is a player to do if your dm is only allowing you access to a phb for everything you want to start off, forced to be a class and has the pregenerated skills but only 200 gold to being with at lvl 6? Thank the gods you're so lucky and go with it. I don't know any DM's who are so brazen as to think that their story ability can enthrall you better than magic items and overpowered feats. Maybe he is on to something.
HalasterAteMyHamster 09-10-06, 05:57 AM	All games are also stories. Some stories are about characters with tons of magical loot pulling off cool tricks. Some stories are about poor characters struggling against tough situations with the mundane stuff they have. Either one could be a lot of fun or very stupid, depending on how it's done. For the record, I wasn't refering to the gold limit. That's not a problem; it's not something I'd enjoy, but it's interesting and could be cool. What I have a problem with is forcing a specific class and skill-set. That takes the choice out of the hands of the players, which makes the game more like a movie than an interactive experience.
SirTodd 09-10-06, 11:10 AM	I have to agree with many of the other posters. This all sounds just fine (if appled across the board). With the exception of the DM making your character without your consent. I have no issue playing a DM created character if I am in a situation where time is an issue (like a convention) or in the case of a novice or undecided player who needs help (I have asked the GM to help me like this in other games I wasn't familiar with). But in general I prefer the enjoyment of crafting a new character myself. It's part of the fun of playing. So I would be wary of a regular game with pregenerated characters.
Conshey 09-10-06, 01:09 PM	the only problem i have is the pregenerated Characters and skill lists, if it were me i'd leave before the first session started. speaking as a DM for 6 years now i know that a good DM will find a way to fit the character into the story (and yes a game is a story, just not complete). I play with my players and i have them achieve a goal, if they decide to not go for the plot hook i have provided, i'll BS for a while and then end the game short. now a good DM also knows how to subtly direct the players and characters using incentives...ie. in my campaign, the party has to be at a certain city at a certain time. I'll use the character motivations to move them to that city instead of just saying, 'you somehow ended up here...' thats lame. If this DM is your only way to play, speak to him about the problem and then come to an agreement...I have a couple of players who i don't let play certain classes, or won't let use certain feats because of roleplaying issues...not because of powergaming threats. It always amazes me though, the Psionics is overpowered arguement always finds its way into most forums. Personally i think that they rock, but i can also sympathize with the opposite argument. I hate the warmage because i think its overpowered, same for the Duskblade...but i know a great many ppl out there would disagree with me on that. (i don't ban them from my game though, i just make them roleplay it) if you truly want a game to be fun for the players, set guidelines and enforce them, don't be to harsh and and don't be to loose with the rules. give the unknown a chance, whats the worst that could happen...you might even like it. I'm just saying that if you ban something from your game, try playing it for a while and get to know it before you make such harsh judgements. Understanding is the first step to end prejustice. Conshey
Teh_username 09-10-06, 01:44 PM	Gee, maybe the DM is sick of character creation taking multiple sessions, and ending up with a wonky party that has no reason to travel together, doesn't complement each other, and ends up missing some "key" member of the group because everyone just had to have their way during character creation, and so he decided to see if you could flex your RPing skills by taking a loosely-sketched pre-gen and make it "yours". No, it couldn't possibly be that, could it? Suck it up.
SirTodd 09-10-06, 02:00 PM	Gee, maybe the DM is sick of character creation taking multiple sessions, and ending up with a wonky party that has no reason to travel together, doesn't complement each other, and ends up missing some "key" member of the group because everyone just had to have their way during character creation, and so he decided to see if you could flex your RPing skills by taking a loosely-sketched pre-gen and make it "yours". No, it couldn't possibly be that, could it? Suck it up. If the group can't build a good party they like to play, and works well together. Then forcing pre-gen characters on them isn't going to fix the problem. All your going to do is reinforce the idea the GM can't handle it on his end either.
mathogre 09-10-06, 02:56 PM	aekilez, You now have lots of replies, many of which are of the nature, "If the (PCs|DM) were ..." You haven't added anything to it. Can you elaborate on the situation? Thanks in advance!
Vestigial_Thumb 09-10-06, 03:15 PM	What I do is usually tell the DM to STFU. It's not just his game. He's also supposed to help his players have fun. If he doesn't listen, kill him and find a new one.
kelvinaw273 09-10-06, 04:49 PM	what is a player to do if your dm is only allowing you access to a phb for everything you want to start off, forced to be a class and has the pregenerated skills but only 200 gold to being with at lvl 6? How about: "Rise to the Challenge!"
ferretferret 09-10-06, 05:34 PM	heres an idea ... go with it. its not that bad, basic equpment,magic, skills, wepons armor, gear, and classes that fill the most basic of needs, and why do you think its going to be lame, what about when 3.5 came out and thats all thaey played with. also you dont have pre generated skills.
Vestigial_Thumb 09-10-06, 06:12 PM	what about when 3.5 came out and thats all thaey played with. That was then. This is now. There's a lot more books that can be used to actually make the character you want, not some lame archetype. And even then, players could play Kobolds, Orcs, Goblins. also you dont have pre generated skills. That's what he said. In short, your DM is just lazy.