Post/Author/DateTime	Post
LordTarmos 09-13-07, 06:17 PM	In my Dm's campaign he enjoys using instant death attacks and spells, to the tune of last session our group was attacked by 14 death spells in a row, from finger of death, death touches and circles of death. I would like help in finding an item, or ability to negate these attacks. The only item i have found is Death Ward armor ability, which is only useable 1 time per day. I need something that can be used more often than that thanks in advance
Cifer 09-13-07, 06:19 PM	How about Death Ward, the spell? It's 4th level and completely protects you against any Death effects.
PhaedrusXY 09-13-07, 06:23 PM	There is also an armor enhancement in the Book of Exalted Deeds that gives you a permanent Death Ward effect. I forget what it is called, but I think it is a +4 equivalent.
LordTarmos 09-13-07, 06:29 PM	Death ward spell would be nice but i cannot cast spells am a fighter.
Cifer 09-13-07, 06:42 PM	Then how about asking your party cleric, paladin or druid about using it?
Some_call_me_Tim 09-13-07, 06:55 PM	How about Death Ward, the spell? It's 4th level and completely protects you against any Death effects. Then how about asking your party cleric, paladin or druid about using it? Exactly, and how about telling your DM he's a tool. I'm sorry; 14 death attacks in one session?! Even if you only fail on a natural 1, you were more likely to lose than to win 14 rolls in a row. I admit I don't like save-or-die rolls, although I will use them occasionally to keep PCs on their toes, but that just sounds plain vindictive.
LordTarmos 09-13-07, 07:11 PM	More interested in an item that I can use without relying on others. Sort of a character trait in the backstory of my fighter
weasel05 09-13-07, 07:23 PM	rod of spell obsorbtion, our wizard uses it to do the same thing and our DM regrets using it against us now
Sunblast 09-13-07, 07:33 PM	Dangit, I wish I had my books on me... There's the guardian spirits from Dungeon Master's Guide II. One protects against death effects. That's the only one I can think of without my sources. :-(
Adric_the_Commoner 09-13-07, 07:38 PM	Scarab of Protection: This device appears to be a silver medallion in the shape of a beetle. If it is held for 1 round, an inscription appears on its surface letting the holder know that it is a protective device. The scarab’s possessor gains spell resistance 20. The scarab can also absorb energy-draining attacks, death effects, and negative energy effects. Upon absorbing twelve such attacks, the scarab turns to powder and is destroyed. Strong abjuration and necromancy; CL 18th; Craft Wondrous Item, death ward, spell resistance; Price 38,000 gp. I'm thinking this is your best bet. And if you're high enough level to deal with enemies who drop 14 death attacks (I agree, that's an absurd number) you could buy more than one.
Phrennzy 09-13-07, 07:45 PM	Scarab of Protection This device appears to be a silver medallion in the shape of a beetle. If it is held for 1 round, an inscription appears on its surface letting the holder know that it is a protective device. The scarab’s possessor gains spell resistance 20. The scarab can also absorb energy-draining attacks, death effects, and negative energy effects. Upon absorbing twelve such attacks, the scarab turns to powder and is destroyed. Strong abjuration and necromancy; CL 18th; Craft Wondrous Item, death ward, spell resistance; Price 38,000 gp. It can absorb 12 effects - so pretty much one fight LOL
Derfos666 09-13-07, 10:22 PM	I believe there is an item in the Magic Item Compendium that gives you protection against 1 death effect/day. Also, consider talking to your DM about it. "I'm a fighter, so I don't have many protective spells, and spending money on death warding items will make me less effective in battle (since that means I'm not spending that money on weapons and armor). Would it be possible for you to reduce the ammount of death attacks used in combat?" is a good way to approach a DM. Also "I would find it interesting if, in combat, we could have more things like dodging fireballs, or running from earthquakes. It would make the game really exciting at some times." works. As a DM, I would accept it.
Meep326 09-13-07, 10:35 PM	The group I'm with recently started going up against death effects, we crafted Rings of Death Ward 2/day, cost around cost came out to be something like 20-25k each.
Novabomb 09-13-07, 10:39 PM	Soulfire ring, or soulfire enchanment on armor (BOED) grants imunity to death effects, and IIRC negative levels.
PhaedrusXY 09-13-07, 10:57 PM	soulfire enchanment on armor (BOED) grants imunity to death effects, and IIRC negative levels.That's the name. I couldn't remember it.
Vaelan 09-14-07, 06:00 AM	I would tell him that death effects are stupid and that he should stop using them. If they fail, nothing happens. Big yawn. If they succeed, someone gets to sit out the battle. Bigger yawn.
draco1119 09-14-07, 07:13 AM	Save-or-dies are entertaining when used sparingly. Especially when used against a Paladin who can't fail the save. But rolls a 1. Oops. :) But 14 in one battle, unless fighting multiple Beholders, is downright excessive.
wonlee76 09-14-07, 02:00 PM	I would tell him that death effects are stupid and that he should stop using them. If they fail, nothing happens. Big yawn. If they succeed, someone gets to sit out the battle. Bigger yawn. If its that boring, should the PC's be allowed to use death effect spells themselves? I just hate double standards where somethings okay for the players to use but god forbid the DM uses the same trick on the basis that it would make things possibly "boring" for someone. Though in this case, your DM is going overboard. :P Good news is if you get enough HD, Circle of Death should not be a problem for you seeing as that has a HD limit on who it can effect. As for solutions, there are no "cheap' solutions to become immune to death effects. Scarab of Protection is costly for basically 12 charges that may get sucked up from some energy drain attacks. Soulfire is pretty expensive as well as a +4 armor enhancement or +5... The cheaper deathward enhancement is only good for one fight. Some other non-traditional methods: Become undead somehow. Necropolitan is the least costly method to become undead (Libris Mortis). Immune to death effects + other immunities. Downside is no Con score and the fact that you probably won't be the most welcomed sight when entering a city/town barring some disguises/illusions. Feats: I believe there is a feat in PHB II that basically prevents you from auto-failing on a natural 1 for Fort saves. Combine that with magical items to boost your already good Fort Save and you may minimize the chances of death by magic.
Savenger 09-14-07, 05:30 PM	You could pick up the armour crystal that adds to Saves (i think plus 5) and also lets you re-roll one death effect/day (i belive I got all the right? not sure though, don't have my book on me). Also consider getting steadfast determnation (though you do need endurance sadly), as it lets you not fail fort saves on a one (handy for low save death effects, mass damage, etc) Combinded with the crystal, you should be able to auto save some effects. In addiction you can add your con instead of wisdom to your will, which can help save against annoying will saves also Savenger
Some_call_me_Tim 09-14-07, 05:50 PM	If its that boring, should the PC's be allowed to use death effect spells themselves? I just hate double standards where somethings okay for the players to use but god forbid the DM uses the same trick on the basis that it would make things possibly "boring" for someone.I do think it is OK to have a double standard. The DM doesn't have a lot invested in NPCs and monsters compared with players; most are only 'on-screen' for a single fight. I've played in games where the BBEG got taken out by a save-or-die type of spell. It may not have been the most heroic ending to have the Huge Advanced Dark Naga Sorcerer turned into a chicken and to be roasted and eaten by the PC's at the celebratory dinner, but it was certainly entertaining! However, if that became a regular occurrence, I will probably adjust the BBEG's equipment or preparations to counter as I do imagine it would get old pretty quickly.
Wiz_Eldrick 09-14-07, 05:55 PM	14? Yeah, sounds kind of silly, but one thing you left out: Just how many PC fatalities resulted? If the answer is none... I'm more than a little curious as to what all is going on there....
VulcanStormwrath 09-14-07, 06:25 PM	The whole group fails their saves on purpose, dies, derails the campaign, DMgets the point and stops being a tool. Or everyone takes nothing but assasin levels from now on.
danielinthewolvesden 09-14-07, 07:59 PM	There is a very cool Feat in PHII. It requires Endurance as a pre-req, but it makes your CON bonus add to Will saves instead of your WIS. But wait- that's not all! It also makes a "natural 1" on a Fort save not an auto-fail! In the new magic item book, there are armour crystals that add quite a bit to your saves vs Death, etc attacks. Or in other words, more or less what Savenger said!:D
navar100 09-15-07, 10:57 AM	Conspire with the other players. Next adventure allow for a TPK; it's what the DM wants to get his jollies. Don't purposely do stupid things, but don't fret being low on hit points or care about making saving throws. When everyone dies, say "Aw shucks, what a way to end a great campaign." Then, start a new one with someone else as DM.
AnonymousInternets 09-15-07, 05:20 PM	Find a way to eliminate your con score (undead, deathless, construct, etc.). Anything requiring a fort save that doesn't target objects you auto-pass! I know it sounds very self-promoting, but the enigmist (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=922890) does counter spell-heavy NPC's very nicely... ;)
Yodaman23 09-15-07, 09:46 PM	Your GM is pretty crazy. I only use death effects when the character using them has a motivation too. A death effect spell you can imagine in any universe is looked down on, so I've used a few. My favorite is one of my players going into the temple of helm and trying to spy on them and stop them from subjigating Maztica (forgotten realms). After a very powerful serman by the high cleric (cleric 16, Fatespinner 5) he as many good holy men do, stayed around to greet his followers and take donations. My player went up to him and shook his hand and thanked him for a good serman, he then cast a touch spell with verbal componant on the cleric (addiction) and said "strike one for drugs" (long story) The cleric then succeeded a grapple check to hold tightly to my players hand and cast slay living as he thought this was a failed assissination attempt. I told my player that he could see the cleric casting a spell and to make a fort save. He told me the result and I said, well, your not dead immediatly, now lets roll the damage of a failed slay living spell. My players looked at me in horror and my reply was, "The cleric doesn't f*ck around." Favorite villian ever by the way.
StevenO 09-15-07, 10:05 PM	Find a way to eliminate your con score (undead, deathless, construct, etc.). Anything requiring a fort save that doesn't target objects you auto-pass! I know it sounds very self-promoting, but the enigmist (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=922890) does counter spell-heavy NPC's very nicely... ;) There are some possibilities in the Libris Mortis that relate to that idea. Although it would cost the fighter his CON bonus going through the "ceremony" to become a Necropolitian would make all those death attacks worthless because you'd already be dead.
V8122 09-15-07, 10:17 PM	By god, Fourteen!? When I DM, I use Save-Or-Die's rarely, and then just to scare the armor off the PCs. Truly, SODE's aren't terribly useful in combat from a DM perspective- If your job is not to kill the PCs, but challenge them, and should the save be failed you will do the first, should it be made you deal a pitiful amount of damage. In closing, SODE's should be used against NPC's, so that "with a wave of the BBEG's hand, (NPC)'s limbs grow numb, and he falls to the ground, dead" can be said.
Vaelan 09-15-07, 11:13 PM	If its that boring, should the PC's be allowed to use death effect spells themselves? I just hate double standards where somethings okay for the players to use but god forbid the DM uses the same trick on the basis that it would make things possibly "boring" for someone. Instant death spells make the combat a bit of a dud for everyone except the one who threw it usually, so I would imagine that, were the players bothering to be rational and/or consistent, they wouldn't use them either.
Krusk 09-16-07, 03:36 AM	I would suggest along with all the advice for deathward items, that you buy a vest of resistance X and a perehipt of wis X where x= as much as you can. Seems to me like anything else is unneeded if the only things people do are death effects. Also you might want to consider some sort of spell turning or an item to give SR. Or tell the sorcerer to sit around ready to counterspell. This might be a campaign where it is a good idea to take iron will and the feats that follow it. Most of the time your con will be above wis as a fighter, and a feat after iron will will let you use con instead of wisdom for will saves. in the phb2, steadfast determination. Take that and now buy items of con increase, which also increase your HP and fort saves.
Eater_Of_Souls 09-16-07, 11:24 AM	Get your self a ring of spell turning and show the baddie :pbbbtt: Up to three times per day on command, this simple platinum band automatically reflects the next nine levels of spells cast at the wearer, exactly as if spell turning had been cast upon the wearer. Strong abjuration; CL 13th; Forge Ring, spell turning; Price 98,280 gp.
Draco_Whitewind 09-17-07, 02:33 AM	Death Ward spell from your cleric. Scarab of protection Heavy fortification armor. With heavy fortification, no death attacks. and scarabs will absorb and protect, as well as death ward from spells. Of course, neither will help against disentegrate or flesh to stone, of course.;) :P
Some_call_me_Tim 09-17-07, 11:52 AM	Heavy fortification armor. With heavy fortification, no death attacks. Huh? Even immunity from critical hits doesn't prevent a death effect (it stops a coup de grace but thats not the same thing).
Myers 09-17-07, 12:10 PM	If its that boring, should the PC's be allowed to use death effect spells themselves? I just hate double standards where somethings okay for the players to use but god forbid the DM uses the same trick on the basis that it would make things possibly "boring" for someone. Though in this case, your DM is going overboard. :P Good news is if you get enough HD, Circle of Death should not be a problem for you seeing as that has a HD limit on who it can effect. As for solutions, there are no "cheap' solutions to become immune to death effects. Scarab of Protection is costly for basically 12 charges that may get sucked up from some energy drain attacks. Soulfire is pretty expensive as well as a +4 armor enhancement or +5... The cheaper deathward enhancement is only good for one fight. Some other non-traditional methods: Become undead somehow. Necropolitan is the least costly method to become undead (Libris Mortis). Immune to death effects + other immunities. Downside is no Con score and the fact that you probably won't be the most welcomed sight when entering a city/town barring some disguises/illusions. Feats: I believe there is a feat in PHB II that basically prevents you from auto-failing on a natural 1 for Fort saves. Combine that with magical items to boost your already good Fort Save and you may minimize the chances of death by magic. Personally I never quite considered death effects cool on either side, who wants a battle that ends in 1 round on either side. Really I would suggest trying to talk the DM into banning it on both sides. 14 death effects in one session? Are you sure you haven't just outright ticked off your DM somehow? If the players are using death attacks like crazy then yes it is a double standard. If the players use them sparingly, course the fighter is most likely not the one responsible for the BS if that is the case.
Draco_Whitewind 09-17-07, 05:29 PM	Huh? Even immunity from critical hits doesn't prevent a death effect (it stops a coup de grace but thats not the same thing). From the SRD: Death Attack If an assassin studies his victim for 3 rounds and then makes a sneak attack with a melee weapon that successfully deals damage, the sneak attack has the additional effect of possibly either paralyzing or killing the target (assassin’s choice). The sneak attack is completely negated. Its not just "Fails to deal + damage" anything hinging on it is just prevented. (However, the armor would not stop the burst effects on weapons because it explicitly states that.
Eerongal 09-17-07, 05:44 PM	From the SRD: Death Attack If an assassin studies his victim for 3 rounds and then makes a sneak attack with a melee weapon that successfully deals damage, the sneak attack has the additional effect of possibly either paralyzing or killing the target (assassin’s choice). The sneak attack is completely negated. Its not just "Fails to deal + damage" anything hinging on it is just prevented. (However, the armor would not stop the burst effects on weapons because it explicitly states that. Death attack, the assassin ability, is not the governing source on death effects. Yes, it is a death effect, but it's negated only by things that negate SA because it says it does. The general rules for death effects are as follows: Death Attacks In most cases, a death attack allows the victim a Fortitude save to avoid the affect, but if the save fails, the character dies instantly. Raise dead doesn’t work on someone killed by a death attack. Death attacks slay instantly. A victim cannot be made stable and thereby kept alive. In case it matters, a dead character, no matter how she died, has -10 hit points. The spell death ward protects a character against these attacks.
LordTarmos 09-17-07, 06:37 PM	Thanks for the help guys, just for information mthe combat led to 2 deaths in our group of 6 both of which were later true resurrected asap. all my saves are really good, my charaster has Belt of magnificence +6 recently puchased and has had cloak of resistance +5 for some time now. While my dm is harsh but he is excellent and great story lines the challenge is very difficult. But i love the challenge. I have the only 2 chaaracters in the game that so far have not died. My sorcerer is well thought out and handled the death attacks easily with spell turning spells and mystic aegis(immediate action) spell resistance.problem is he never had time to react to help the fighter and the fighter had a close call on a save by roling a 2(whew that was close). As long as it is expected and also not forbidden for us to use I am ok with him being as mean as he wants that way I know I deserve for this character to live. ThANKS again for all the inputt i think i will go with the ring of spell turning.
wonlee76 09-17-07, 08:14 PM	I do think it is OK to have a double standard. The DM doesn't have a lot invested in NPCs and monsters compared with players; most are only 'on-screen' for a single fight. I've played in games where the BBEG got taken out by a save-or-die type of spell. It may not have been the most heroic ending to have the Huge Advanced Dark Naga Sorcerer turned into a chicken and to be roasted and eaten by the PC's at the celebratory dinner, but it was certainly entertaining! However, if that became a regular occurrence, I will probably adjust the BBEG's equipment or preparations to counter as I do imagine it would get old pretty quickly. I have no problems with PCs using any kind of save or die effect on the bad guys. They leveled up, they learned the spell or ability, they took advantage of it and I flubbed the save... I'm all for it. I do not like this to be an excuse for a DM to never use such effects on the players. That's the double standard I was talking about. Allowing players to do things but refusing to ever use such tactics as a DM because "it might make it less fun for a PC". In my opinion, its the worst form of DM metagaming. If I have a bad guy wizard with Finger of Death or Wail of the Banshee prepped, he is not going to say "Aww, I feel sorry for the group of adventurers ready to kill me because the low Fort Save PC has a decent chance of death... maybe I shouldn't use this save or die spell..." The CR on the bad guy is there for a reason and if you're not going to use those abilities, may as well just reduce the xp if you're reducing the lethality of the encounter. High level PCs learn to adapt or they die. Nice and simple. Holding back my punches as a DM means the players will never adapt to high level play in my opinion.
Vaelan 09-18-07, 01:43 AM	I do not like this to be an excuse for a DM to never use such effects on the players. That's the double standard I was talking about. This is, in fact, the exact opposite of the double standard you were talking about before. If I have a bad guy wizard with Finger of Death or Wail of the Banshee prepped... Had you resolved not to use such effects, the Wizard wouldn't have them prepared. You would, instead, find a way to challenge the party that isn't quite so boring. Holding back my punches as a DM means the players will never adapt to high level play in my opinion. And not "holding your punches" (it is only holding your punches in the invalid scenario you posited) means that you will never learn to run high-level play, in my opinion. Any idiot can throw around save-or-dies every round. That doesn't make you a good DM. It makes you quite the opposite.
High Octane 09-18-07, 01:57 AM	Become a lich. Failing that, there is a usable item (so it doesn't take up a slot) called Talisman of Undying Fortitude I believe, it's in magic item compendium, it is a talisman that can be activated twice a day and when activated lasts for 3 rounds. While under it's effects you gain the same immunities that undead have to just about anything that requires a fort save (including death effects and even energy drain) without any nasty side effects like being able to be turned or having positive energy make you go "OWWY!". 6 rounds a day, each activation is a swift action. Last I recall it also is a fairly cheap item, under 10k. If your DM is having you face 14 save or die attacks in a single combat, he deserves a baseball bat to his anatomy in ever changing areas (rotated between elbows, knees, feet, crotch, head, kidneys, ribs, thumbs and the occasional spine.) Seriously, after 4 save or dies he owes you an explanation to the question "Why are you attempting with every fiber of your being to kill off our characters, I mean did I do something like drink the last Mountain Dew or run over your child with an 18 wheeler?" Unless of course your DM or you have forgotten that certain save or die effects have you save once and you become immune for 24 hours (such as a nightwalker's death gaze) which is an understandable thing to miss for a new player or DM as long as, and oh my GODS I can only begin to grind my teeth well enough at this thought, the DM with the hard on for flexing his obviously underdeveloped DMing muscles did something monumentally stupid akin to deciding that your car is much sleeker and fuel efficient without airbags, seat belts, headlights, or mirrors, the dumb DM decided to houserule that the immunity to the death effect after a save actually does not happen and he can retry it please GODS make me believe in humanity enough to know this is not what happened. Even without that your DM had better have one good explanation to 14 save or die death attacks in one combat, such as you just happened to stumble in on the 135th official Nightwalker/Banshee singles convention and they were all mad that you interrupted their make-out time.
White_Whale 09-18-07, 04:26 AM	If you have decent saves, consider buying lots of Phaant's Luckstones (Ghostwalk). For 1000gp you may reroll any roll.
Some_call_me_Tim 09-18-07, 12:14 PM	I do not like this to be an excuse for a DM to never use such effects on the players. That's the double standard I was talking about. Allowing players to do things but refusing to ever use such tactics as a DM because "it might make it less fun for a PC". In my opinion, its the worst form of DM metagaming.So, it's really bad to try and keep things fun?! I'm not talking about ensuring the players always win. Sure death is likely not to be any fun, but neither is knowing that you can't die. There are plenty of ways to challenge a party without using save-or-die effects. I use save-or-die effects very sparingly. The one time I can remember using slay living on a PC involved an NPC who was trying to steal the McGuffin of Doom. She had grabbed the McGuffin and was heading for the exit. She cast slay living and held the charge saying "If anyone tries to stop me they will die a horrible death." One PC was brave enough to try and stop her. He failed the save, the NPC escaped and McGuffin of Doom was lost to the forces of Evil(tm). Such a set-up allowed the PC to be heroic by making the choice to stand in the way. I could have just said, "the NPC casts slay living, roll, you're dead, your friends pummel her now that she is defenseless." Not nearly as heroic. If I have a bad guy wizard with Finger of Death or Wail of the Banshee prepped, he is not going to say "Aww, I feel sorry for the group of adventurers ready to kill me because the low Fort Save PC has a decent chance of death... maybe I shouldn't use this save or die spell..." A lot of times I see save-or-die effects used as 'spoilers' against PCs. I know I can't win, so I will just randomly try and kill one of them for fun. Notwithstanding the crazed psychopath, that isn't a very good strategy for long term NPC survival. The CR on the bad guy is there for a reason and if you're not going to use those abilities, may as well just reduce the xp if you're reducing the lethality of the encounter.I simply don't have them prepare very many save-or-die effects unless it fits thematically with the NPC. Sure, the cleric of the God of Death, will prepare slay living, but for the wily mage instead of finger of death, greater teleport would allow a certain escape, much better tactical choice than a mere chance to kill one of four people coming after you. It is also great for plot hooks, as the PCs will want to track down "the one that got away." Whereas, "remember that guy who killed Bob?" "No." "Yeah, you know, the one the barbarian cut if half six seconds later." That never seems to come up. High level PCs learn to adapt or they die. Nice and simple. Holding back my punches as a DM means the players will never adapt to high level play in my opinion."Holding back punches" implies that you aren't trying to beat the PCs. That is hardly the case, I use tactics other than the 'gotcha' save-or-die effects.
High Octane 09-18-07, 03:46 PM	After 9th or 10th level the whole save or die thing won't be a big deal, what with raise dead now being on the spell list of the clerics. What I think is the issue isn't that there were save or die effects, the issue was that there were 14 of them in ONE BATTLE.
Grumman 09-18-07, 04:12 PM	After 9th or 10th level the whole save or die thing won't be a big deal, what with raise dead now being on the spell list of the clerics. Raise Dead doesn't work after death effects.
Angus Cotton 09-18-07, 09:33 PM	I don't think the DM is too out of line personally. What are they? 17+ level? There is so many things they can do to counter this, it is not even funny. 14 in one battle may be a little overboard if they are having that much in each battle of the campaign, but if this is an isolated incident based on the campaign (like they attacked a brood of Boduks), then I don't see it as too much. Btw, with 14 death effects, your save bonus is immaterial. You have a pretty high chance of rolling a 1 with that many rolls. To beat this, you need to block it completely.