DM makes things too hard. [Archive] - Wizards Community

DM makes things too hard. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
StandardIdiotPC
01-21-06, 05:52 PM I bet most of you are thinking that I am just going to be whining about a perfect fine DM but let me put this in perspective. First adventure the party was 5 8th Level PC's the encounters for the adventures were CR 11 CR 13 CR 10 in that order, with very little time to heal. The second adventure we had to go through a dungeon with a CR 10 trap and a trio of Vrocks. How are we surviving? Well for starters the DM is a terrible tactician. We only win by consistently outsmarting him. Since we outsmart him he counters by making the monsters stronger rather than rethinking his tactics. Now the problem has come to full front and center since we haven't really faced an even CR with DM in a long time. Every adventure is just Hack N' Slash super powerful monsters. He also usually leaves us with no choice but to fight as well. Normally, its we have to go fight or the town of peasants dies. I tried telling him to lower the CR's but make the monster fight smarter, and he said he would. Problem is he still isn't after saying this. Anything else I can do to end this constant hack n' slash for my life adventure.
Rhomphaia
01-21-06, 06:16 PM Just be thankful that he is a stupid tactician...or you might find yourself on the end of a few TPKs. Try asking him that instead of doing combat, make something the characters may be able to roleplay out of.

Like this situation for example. A small army of orcs is intent on raiding this village. Now orcs are intelligent creatures, so to speak, and so can be dealt with, cowed, or frightened off. There is opportunity to roleplay the situation out here, which is the important thing.

If he is uncomfortable with this, just tell him an experienced DM said that yes, the first few sessions of roleplaying encounter will be rocky until he gets the hang of it, but the initial effort is worth it when the encounters start coming easier and all kinds of ideas start pouring forth.

Also, tell him he may want to try this. Flip through his favorite critter book and randomly stop on a page. Pick out a monster and then start thinking of ways a roleplay encounter might be brought out of it and if he can make some, throw it into an adventure. Don't worry about CR or any of that, just warn the players that this is the way he is making his adventures to build his roleplay style to fit everyone's needs.

To be honest, it really sounds like he is either stuck in video game mode or he is pretty new to DMing. Either way, these suggestions should help him out.
StevenO
01-21-06, 06:23 PM A minor question but are the PCs far above average? To put it another way, do they have more equipment then they should and how high are their stats if purchased using the DMG's point-buy system. It is possible that the character actually fight at a higher level than they really are.

I the above isn't (part of) the problem then congratulations for living. Surviving the first adventure is a miricle even with the extra man since those are extreme encounters.

I can come up with one way the end the hack-n-slash but it isn't pretty. Show the DM how using poor tactics can destroy even strong characters. Basically, have the party suicide (TPK) on the next overwhelming encounter by using the same horrible tactics that the DM is using with the monsters. Getting all the players kill may make him look twice at how he is using encounters improperly.
celtredleg
01-22-06, 01:47 AM Did you roll your charecters?? If so, that may explain a bit of it. A lot of roll ups are much higher than point buy.

It is much easier for a DM to hack and slash. It takes a lot of energy to think up good RP situations, and some people just are not good at running them. If he is terrible at tactics, he may well be terrible at RP, and knows it. For most of us, it is tough to admit we suck at things.
shadowfox628
01-22-06, 02:44 AM Um, with all due respect, if I was in that campain, I'd probibly would have powered up my character as much as possible.... Anyway, as a DM and PC, it's just crazy.... But be grateful: you didn't have to go up against a Monk/Drunken Master (levels 20 and 10, respectively).
Treebore
01-22-06, 01:25 PM This is why I think all DM's should start out by running modules. To learn story plot/sequence, to learn what balanced encounters are, and so many other things. Then they can move on to doing their own thing, hopefully having actually learned what they were supposed to from running the modules.

It is how I am starting my 14 year old daughter on her DMing career.
Eppek_the_Goblin
01-23-06, 04:03 AM I know I'm going to make a lot of enemies by saying this, but any dungeon master who starts his characters at anything but first level is looking for trouble. Dungeons and Dragons is a game of balance, and it is the DM's foremost duty to set the scales. A DM who starts his players at level 8 really has only three options. He can 1.) Hope-like-heck everything works out and then proceed to decimate the party, or 2.) Hope-like-heck everything works out and then proceed to have the party roll over his monsters like a kaiser tank over a basket of kittens, or 3.) Fudge every die roll in an attempt to make things appear balanced. It would seem that your DM was stuck somewhere between 1 and 3... but certainly not on 2 (It's obvious we're dealing with imaginary numbers here and math is not my forte). It wasn't his fault that the game went poorly - in truth, there was no alternative. However, he should have started you all out at level one to better adjust the scales of balance that make the D&D game so much fun in the first place.
Cymraegmorgan
01-23-06, 08:39 AM I know I'm going to make a lot of enemies by saying this, but any dungeon master who starts his characters at anything but first level is looking for trouble.

Absolutely true.
Troll-Magus
01-23-06, 11:08 AM I know I'm going to make a lot of enemies by saying this, but any dungeon master who starts his characters at anything but first level is looking for trouble. Dungeons and Dragons is a game of balance, and it is the DM's foremost duty to set the scales

It's true though, and especially with novice and weak DMs, starting at level 1 and progressivley slowing is the best way for them to learn proper scaling of adventures.

Also sometimes retreating is an answer, if the world even has a little bit of realism not all encounters should be winnable. Some encounters should be cake walks, some less than even CR, some even CR, a few with CR higher (very challenging), and a few too high where the PCs know they have to run or just not enter. e.g. 1st levels that learn where the trolls live or a black dragon is living should never enter those areas until they get more information on what they face and if they feel they have the power to overcome the challenge.
High Octane
01-23-06, 11:37 AM From one DM, I've had 12 character deaths in 3 years.

I win.
Asciiman
01-23-06, 12:26 PM From one DM, I've had 12 character deaths in 3 years.

I win.

In Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil that I'm running, I'm sure I can beat that, and it hasn't even been a single year.

Then again, RttToEE is a meat grinder on purpose.
epifreak
01-23-06, 12:35 PM I know I'm going to make a lot of enemies by saying this, but any dungeon master who starts his characters at anything but first level is looking for trouble.

I dunno, I'm starting a campaign @ lvl. 5 for one reason. I intend for the PCs to run into some mobs early on, rather than just single enemies. This stems from the campaign I've plotted, and well, it's extremely difficult to do that at a low level. A dozen or so wolves will be a TPK at first level, and I know it, so I gave them a couple of freebie levels to do three things. 1. allow me to mob tactic them, 2. allow them to fight something other than bloody goblins early on, and 3. reduce the strength of "oh crap, the goblin critted. Looks like you die." I don't mind character death per-se, but a random goblin crit death annoys me.

Anyway, my point is that certain stylistic setups can't be run at level 1; therefore, a DM wishing to run them has no choice but to accept a level above 1 for the PCs.
Bruunwald
01-23-06, 01:26 PM I dunno, I'm starting a campaign @ lvl. 5 for one reason. I intend for the PCs to run into some mobs early on, rather than just single enemies. This stems from the campaign I've plotted, and well, it's extremely difficult to do that at a low level. A dozen or so wolves will be a TPK at first level, and I know it, so I gave them a couple of freebie levels to do three things. 1. allow me to mob tactic them, 2. allow them to fight something other than bloody goblins early on, and 3. reduce the strength of "oh crap, the goblin critted. Looks like you die." I don't mind character death per-se, but a random goblin crit death annoys me.

Anyway, my point is that certain stylistic setups can't be run at level 1; therefore, a DM wishing to run them has no choice but to accept a level above 1 for the PCs.

I think the person you're replying to meant that novice DMs ought to start their first games low. A veteran DM is a different thing: he's comfortable starting a new campaign at 5th level or 11th level.

But when we were new at it, it was a disaster.

In my case, I started DMing when I was 11 or 12. The first few years were fun, but ridiculous when I look back on it now. Balance is something that is learned. I had to grow up, get back to basics and start things at 1st level to really begin to appreciate the game. Twenty-five years in, sure I can handle starting at any level. But the OP's DM seems to still be in his formative stages.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
StandardIdiotPC 01-21-06, 05:52 PM	I bet most of you are thinking that I am just going to be whining about a perfect fine DM but let me put this in perspective. First adventure the party was 5 8th Level PC's the encounters for the adventures were CR 11 CR 13 CR 10 in that order, with very little time to heal. The second adventure we had to go through a dungeon with a CR 10 trap and a trio of Vrocks. How are we surviving? Well for starters the DM is a terrible tactician. We only win by consistently outsmarting him. Since we outsmart him he counters by making the monsters stronger rather than rethinking his tactics. Now the problem has come to full front and center since we haven't really faced an even CR with DM in a long time. Every adventure is just Hack N' Slash super powerful monsters. He also usually leaves us with no choice but to fight as well. Normally, its we have to go fight or the town of peasants dies. I tried telling him to lower the CR's but make the monster fight smarter, and he said he would. Problem is he still isn't after saying this. Anything else I can do to end this constant hack n' slash for my life adventure.
Rhomphaia 01-21-06, 06:16 PM	Just be thankful that he is a stupid tactician...or you might find yourself on the end of a few TPKs. Try asking him that instead of doing combat, make something the characters may be able to roleplay out of. Like this situation for example. A small army of orcs is intent on raiding this village. Now orcs are intelligent creatures, so to speak, and so can be dealt with, cowed, or frightened off. There is opportunity to roleplay the situation out here, which is the important thing. If he is uncomfortable with this, just tell him an experienced DM said that yes, the first few sessions of roleplaying encounter will be rocky until he gets the hang of it, but the initial effort is worth it when the encounters start coming easier and all kinds of ideas start pouring forth. Also, tell him he may want to try this. Flip through his favorite critter book and randomly stop on a page. Pick out a monster and then start thinking of ways a roleplay encounter might be brought out of it and if he can make some, throw it into an adventure. Don't worry about CR or any of that, just warn the players that this is the way he is making his adventures to build his roleplay style to fit everyone's needs. To be honest, it really sounds like he is either stuck in video game mode or he is pretty new to DMing. Either way, these suggestions should help him out.
StevenO 01-21-06, 06:23 PM	A minor question but are the PCs far above average? To put it another way, do they have more equipment then they should and how high are their stats if purchased using the DMG's point-buy system. It is possible that the character actually fight at a higher level than they really are. I the above isn't (part of) the problem then congratulations for living. Surviving the first adventure is a miricle even with the extra man since those are extreme encounters. I can come up with one way the end the hack-n-slash but it isn't pretty. Show the DM how using poor tactics can destroy even strong characters. Basically, have the party suicide (TPK) on the next overwhelming encounter by using the same horrible tactics that the DM is using with the monsters. Getting all the players kill may make him look twice at how he is using encounters improperly.
celtredleg 01-22-06, 01:47 AM	Did you roll your charecters?? If so, that may explain a bit of it. A lot of roll ups are much higher than point buy. It is much easier for a DM to hack and slash. It takes a lot of energy to think up good RP situations, and some people just are not good at running them. If he is terrible at tactics, he may well be terrible at RP, and knows it. For most of us, it is tough to admit we suck at things.
shadowfox628 01-22-06, 02:44 AM	Um, with all due respect, if I was in that campain, I'd probibly would have powered up my character as much as possible.... Anyway, as a DM and PC, it's just crazy.... But be grateful: you didn't have to go up against a Monk/Drunken Master (levels 20 and 10, respectively).
Treebore 01-22-06, 01:25 PM	This is why I think all DM's should start out by running modules. To learn story plot/sequence, to learn what balanced encounters are, and so many other things. Then they can move on to doing their own thing, hopefully having actually learned what they were supposed to from running the modules. It is how I am starting my 14 year old daughter on her DMing career.
Eppek_the_Goblin 01-23-06, 04:03 AM	I know I'm going to make a lot of enemies by saying this, but any dungeon master who starts his characters at anything but first level is looking for trouble. Dungeons and Dragons is a game of balance, and it is the DM's foremost duty to set the scales. A DM who starts his players at level 8 really has only three options. He can 1.) Hope-like-heck everything works out and then proceed to decimate the party, or 2.) Hope-like-heck everything works out and then proceed to have the party roll over his monsters like a kaiser tank over a basket of kittens, or 3.) Fudge every die roll in an attempt to make things appear balanced. It would seem that your DM was stuck somewhere between 1 and 3... but certainly not on 2 (It's obvious we're dealing with imaginary numbers here and math is not my forte). It wasn't his fault that the game went poorly - in truth, there was no alternative. However, he should have started you all out at level one to better adjust the scales of balance that make the D&D game so much fun in the first place.
Cymraegmorgan 01-23-06, 08:39 AM	I know I'm going to make a lot of enemies by saying this, but any dungeon master who starts his characters at anything but first level is looking for trouble. Absolutely true.
Troll-Magus 01-23-06, 11:08 AM	I know I'm going to make a lot of enemies by saying this, but any dungeon master who starts his characters at anything but first level is looking for trouble. Dungeons and Dragons is a game of balance, and it is the DM's foremost duty to set the scales It's true though, and especially with novice and weak DMs, starting at level 1 and progressivley slowing is the best way for them to learn proper scaling of adventures. Also sometimes retreating is an answer, if the world even has a little bit of realism not all encounters should be winnable. Some encounters should be cake walks, some less than even CR, some even CR, a few with CR higher (very challenging), and a few too high where the PCs know they have to run or just not enter. e.g. 1st levels that learn where the trolls live or a black dragon is living should never enter those areas until they get more information on what they face and if they feel they have the power to overcome the challenge.
High Octane 01-23-06, 11:37 AM	From one DM, I've had 12 character deaths in 3 years. I win.
Asciiman 01-23-06, 12:26 PM	From one DM, I've had 12 character deaths in 3 years. I win. In Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil that I'm running, I'm sure I can beat that, and it hasn't even been a single year. Then again, RttToEE is a meat grinder on purpose.
epifreak 01-23-06, 12:35 PM	I know I'm going to make a lot of enemies by saying this, but any dungeon master who starts his characters at anything but first level is looking for trouble. I dunno, I'm starting a campaign @ lvl. 5 for one reason. I intend for the PCs to run into some mobs early on, rather than just single enemies. This stems from the campaign I've plotted, and well, it's extremely difficult to do that at a low level. A dozen or so wolves will be a TPK at first level, and I know it, so I gave them a couple of freebie levels to do three things. 1. allow me to mob tactic them, 2. allow them to fight something other than bloody goblins early on, and 3. reduce the strength of "oh crap, the goblin critted. Looks like you die." I don't mind character death per-se, but a random goblin crit death annoys me. Anyway, my point is that certain stylistic setups can't be run at level 1; therefore, a DM wishing to run them has no choice but to accept a level above 1 for the PCs.
Bruunwald 01-23-06, 01:26 PM	I dunno, I'm starting a campaign @ lvl. 5 for one reason. I intend for the PCs to run into some mobs early on, rather than just single enemies. This stems from the campaign I've plotted, and well, it's extremely difficult to do that at a low level. A dozen or so wolves will be a TPK at first level, and I know it, so I gave them a couple of freebie levels to do three things. 1. allow me to mob tactic them, 2. allow them to fight something other than bloody goblins early on, and 3. reduce the strength of "oh crap, the goblin critted. Looks like you die." I don't mind character death per-se, but a random goblin crit death annoys me. Anyway, my point is that certain stylistic setups can't be run at level 1; therefore, a DM wishing to run them has no choice but to accept a level above 1 for the PCs. I think the person you're replying to meant that novice DMs ought to start their first games low. A veteran DM is a different thing: he's comfortable starting a new campaign at 5th level or 11th level. But when we were new at it, it was a disaster. In my case, I started DMing when I was 11 or 12. The first few years were fun, but ridiculous when I look back on it now. Balance is something that is learned. I had to grow up, get back to basics and start things at 1st level to really begin to appreciate the game. Twenty-five years in, sure I can handle starting at any level. But the OP's DM seems to still be in his formative stages.