Post/Author/DateTime	Post
hensteeth 03-28-05, 08:25 PM	Ok this is the situation: I play in a group with 6-7 players with dms rotating. We have only been playing for a few months and are on our second dm. During this time period, we have realistic treasure of around 12k and a magic item worth another 15k. We are all either 6th or 7th level, which means that our party wealth should be in the 75k + range. During game play we have been wisked from one area to another with no time inbetween. During the first adventure, rules were relaxed so I was able to gain 2 spells per level as a wizard. During this second campaign the rules have been firmed. The first campaign I found one spell book with cantrips and a few spell (like 3 or 4 ithink). During the second campaign I have found 35 spell books with one spell each from level 1 to 3. Each person can only carry 10 books per dm. During both campaigns, I have had basically 3 days to scribe scrolls or scribe into my spell book. Neither adventures have we been able to go to a store, and in fact I feel like they deliberately prevented us. So we wander around with tons of bulky heavy treasure with little value and almost no magic items. I want to point out that this is a FR campaign so there is plenty of magic. Given this situation, I feel that it is intolerable to play the wizard. If I am unable to acquire new spells, or am not given the opportunity to scribe by means of time or coin, then it is not possible to play a wizard. We have a message board for our group and will link this thread there so they can see what I have posted and the response. Help me convince my crew that the game has to change!!!
Thorak 03-28-05, 08:51 PM	So you're playing a low-treasure, high-pressure FR campaign. No big deal. Nor is he screwing you deliberately. Besides, if I see this right, your wizard has had access to 35 spell books, each with three spells. So if you've got 105 spells, plus whatever you earn on your own, what's the problem? Sure, they're not in your spellbook, but they're still in spellbooks, which you can study from. And if they're limiting you to 10, just pick the books with the spells you want most in. Don't get too downtrodden. In my current campaign, we went for 6 months of playing before we found a town that had smith who had armor and weapons for sale, and could make special orders. Simply because we were running from A to B to C, desperately trying to not die, and save a village in the process. Such is life. If it bothers you that much, ask if you can swap your wizard levels for sorceror levels or something.
sooperspook 03-28-05, 08:53 PM	uhm.. according to the rules you automatically get 2 new spells every time you level. no where does it say you have to spend time scribing them in. you only do that with spells you find during the course of an adventure. it is assumed that you have spent your downtime doing a little scribing/practising every day which culminates in your new spells at a new level. aside from that, i'd just sit down and tell your DM / group that feel your character is being short changed. tell them what the problem is. you should be able to work out a compromise.
hensteeth 03-28-05, 09:04 PM	Thank you for your thoughts. He says that I can only acquire the 2 new spells froma source. So I need to be taught them from someone, buy the scroll or find the spell somewhere. Each of the 35 books have only one spell in them. 35 books, 35 spells. The spell level is between 1-3 spread about evenly. It drives me crazy because it's like im playnign a sorc but without the added spells per day. The only thing I can compare it to is a fighter without armor or weapons. Then the dm gives a cheap sword but you can't use it because it's colossal size.
AramilWindwalker 03-28-05, 09:08 PM	Maybe ask him politely to switch your character to a sorceror? Just an idea...
NeedAName 03-28-05, 09:41 PM	Thank you for your thoughts. He says that I can only acquire the 2 new spells froma source. So I need to be taught them from someone, buy the scroll or find the spell somewhere. Each of the 35 books have only one spell in them. 35 books, 35 spells. The spell level is between 1-3 spread about evenly. It drives me crazy because it's like im playnign a sorc but without the added spells per day. The only thing I can compare it to is a fighter without armor or weapons. Then the dm gives a cheap sword but you can't use it because it's colossal size. :(. I feel your pain. Can your wizard take a few days off? Convince the others to take a week here and there? Or are you all out of ink/paper/room in your book?
Count Arioch the 28th 03-28-05, 09:48 PM	He says that I can only acquire the 2 new spells froma source. He's wrong. He's making rulings that are unfounded in the core rules just to punish you. If I were you, I wouldn't take that crap.
Ze_Mighty_Vegetable 03-29-05, 12:50 AM	We are all either 6th or 7th level, which means that our party wealth should be in the 75k + range. Wich means your DM is running a low cash game. If you don't like it, talk to him. But don't take the suggested wealth according to the DMG as a right. It's a guideline, nothing more. During game play we have been wisked from one area to another with no time inbetween. Sometime, downtime can be detrimental to the feel of the story. You can't exactly take a week off in an epic quest to save the world... Each person can only carry 10 books per dm. Ever tried to carry more than 10 big books (my bias, I know, but I picture grimoires as heavy books :D) around? Now try to fight with 35 books. Or run. Or hike. Or do precise (arcanes...) gestures. Your DM's just using logic. During both campaigns, I have had basically 3 days to scribe scrolls or scribe into my spell book. If you want downtime, ask for it. But don't feel it's your right because you are a wizard. Neither adventures have we been able to go to a store, and in fact I feel like they deliberately prevented us. So we wander around with tons of bulky heavy treasure with little value and almost no magic items. IMO, magic stores break the atmosphere, unless it's a silly game (god bless MagicMart). What you should do with unwanted magical items is trying to trade them or sell them to individuals you meet. Of course, YOU (the player) have to work and find a buyer.
weasel fierce 03-29-05, 01:32 AM	Theres no inherent right for a magic user to have access to tons of spells. I'd suggest: A: Talking to the DM and letting him know how you feel B: Make do with what you have, and utilize it to good effect. A spell book with one spell in it, is rather paltry though
Plastik 03-29-05, 02:05 AM	Scribe them in your spellbook using blood and branches instead of ink and pens. He's wrong. He's making rulings that are unfounded in the core rules just to punish you. If I were you, I wouldn't take that crap. Or he's being realistic. I sometimes make characters learn feats, spells, and skills from sources. Other times I reward them for doing it (extra skill points, extra spell per day, an extra feat). It's the DM's decision, and if there's one thing about this board that bothers me, it's beople telling people that their DM is "Wrong". Because it's D&D, and there's no such thing.
Lina_Inverse 03-29-05, 05:11 AM	shoot him,in the face,with a hammer. he cant take your 2spells/level.there free.there part of the "this is what ive learned so ive leveled up package."amoung that for wizards is 2 new spells.amoung that for fighters is there bonus feats. if he takes those away,or doesnt let you pick ANY allowed spell.he is screwing you,to the detirement of the game.afterall being a wizard without spells isnt fun,and if one player isnt enjoying the game then the game is a failure.
PhaedrusXY 03-29-05, 05:19 AM	and there's no such thing.Yes there is. The DM is ignoring the rules, and his players are suffering for it. Sure, he can keep doing it if he wants. But it's kind of hard to DM with no players... I've seen more than one game collapse from exactly this kind of garbage. You can't play a wizard with no spells. The entire idea is absurd. You're worse off than if you were playing a commoner. At least then, you'd have an excuse for being pathetic and useless.
Morwen 03-29-05, 06:39 AM	Each of the 35 books have only one spell in them. 35 books, 35 spells. The spell level is between 1-3 spread about evenly. So, I gather every Wizard you've faced in the campaign so far only knew 1 spell, then? :)
Darastin 03-29-05, 07:26 AM	But don't take the suggested wealth according to the DMG as a right. It's a guideline, nothing more. Ack. It's kinda required for the CR system to make sense. But you can play with more or less wealth in the party if you adjust NPCs and opposition accordingly. Sometime, downtime can be detrimental to the feel of the story. You can't exactly take a week off in an epic quest to save the world... True, but some characters, especially wizards, require downtime. As D&D is a game and games are supposed to be fair, the DM should tell the players that this campaign does not offer much downtime so that they can consider this when making their characters. Ever tried to carry more than 10 big books (my bias, I know, but I picture grimoires as heavy books :D) around? Carrying 35 books (without magical aid, of course) is impossible, sure, and would overstrech the believability of the campaign. However, each spellbook to be found being a one-spell-book does the same. A simple solution would be to put all those pages into one or two books and drop the empty covers. Or he's being realistic. Applying realism to an aspect of magic is contradicionary in itself. I sometimes make characters learn feats, spells, and skills from sources. Other times I reward them for doing it (extra skill points, extra spell per day, an extra feat). There's nothing wrong with training rules if they apply to all characters equally. If I make a wizard learn their spells from an actual source, then I have to do the same with all feats; and have to make characters train for extended periods, preferably with qualified instructors, to gain BAB and other class features. It's the DM's decision, and if there's one thing about this board that bothers me, it's beople telling people that their DM is "Wrong". Because it's D&D, and there's no such thing. All houserules end up being the DMs decision, but DMs are humans, and humans can and do make wrong decisions. Smart humans can overcome their pride, realize when they have made a mistake and correct it. You can't play a wizard with no spells. The entire idea is absurd. Actually, you can. Think of Rincewind. However, that should be a player's decision. If a player wants to play a "normal" wizard, then he wants his character to be able to cast spells, and do it reasonably well. No player should be forcced to play a character he doesn't want to play. To the OP: It seems that your character becomes less and less playable. Ask the DM to give you at least the usual two spells per level. Abandon the caracter if he denies - your're not having fun with him; why continue suffering? Just my two (dozens of) €-Cents; Darastin
amethal 03-29-05, 07:28 AM	So what's stopping you taking time off? Even heroes need a rest occasionally. If your DM says you need to be in a big city or something to sell your items, (which is a perfectly reasonable thing to say) and learn your "bonus" new spells (a bit harsh, in my opinion) then head for the city. Hopefully the rest of the characters will come with you. If not, fantasy wizards are forever wandering off to put their affairs in order, so you'll be following a noble tradition.
hensteeth 03-29-05, 08:23 AM	Thanks all. A lot of good stuff here. I have gone through almost 6 levels with the 2 spells / level and cantrips. I foudn one book with cantrips and like 3-4 spells from character level 1 through 6. Last week we made it to a town that has a school for rich girls. We were sent to escort her here so that the townsfolk could steal a staff from a keep that we had liberated for the purpose of handing the staff over to a demon lord. Well we met the demon lord and he said we are doing a great job of creating chaos for him so he sent us on our way. Btw, none of us are evil, but we all now have a divine mark on our chests of him. We have spent a great deal of time on a boat so I was not able to 'get to town'. We have been 'in town' four times at least. In each time, we have been unable to make it to a store for various reasons (which is why I think both dms willfully denied us the option). I am sure that if I want to go my own way, I will either be punished for it by missing out on huge xp or they will come up with another reason why I can't like the previous 4 times. I've already received indication that the time allotment is not going to happen by way of the dm stating that we are out to stop a demon lord and you can't just take a couple of months off or rather "While some shopping can be done soon, if not immed. taking 60 days while he runs amuck may not be the wizest course. " I forgot to add that in the 12k figure we gave 5k to the keep to get repaired so we have to split 7k six ways. Even if I had all the time in the world, I wouldnt have the cash to write spells in my spell book. The 35 spells alone would cost close to 7k. So I ask you, is this fair? Yes ALL of the rules are subject to the dm, but the rules are there for a reason. So that situations like this do not arise and cause problems. If you have a low cash adventure, you are going to inadvertantly screw people like me.
Captain Casualty 03-29-05, 08:52 AM	Just A question How the Frell are you still alive? :confused: Talking from my extensive experience of getting characters killed a 6th level wizard dies at the drop of a hat in a CR6 encounter if something goes wrong. :eek: Having no spells is somthing going wrong. So why are you still alive and why is the rest of the party putting up with somebody who could (on the face of it) be fairly described as a walking talking xp drain? Either The DM is being extraordinarily lenient (which should tell him something) or the party has gone out of it's way to keep you alive (kudos to them).
ShadowDragon8685 03-29-05, 08:54 AM	The rules exist to protect good players from bad DMs. Now, it is time for... Well, you know by now, right? Hammergun time. Simply TAKE the spells you're entitled to. If you're sixth level, your spellbook should have all the cantrips, your first level spells, and two spells per level after that. Just put them in the book, and tell him "They're mine. You didn't tell the Fighter he coulden't learn his bonus feats. Now shut up." Also, tell him urgency or not, playing this character in this environment has ceased to be fun. Simply tell him, outright, that you are not having fun. 7K split six ways at level 6-7 is outrageous. Ze Mighty Vegetable is, simply, wrong. The wealth-by-level chart is not only a right, but it is a requirement.
Carn Vandoril 03-29-05, 09:05 AM	:( wow! That's rude man! I really fell silent after reading this. Why is this DM scared of wizards? Maybe you can make your own rules inside his: Study while others are doing the usual stuff: preparing camp, food, cleaning weapons/ horses etc. Skip standing on guard during the night. (does your character need a lot of sleep?) Convince your party that your magic will help them and YOUR PARTY supports you, not the DM. * the 2 spells/level is ment as your ideas, research and thoughts that come up. You could always barter that some spells become more powerfull: I o w: fireball could go to delayed fireball. (get the idea?) try learning or researching in a different way: like sitting behind the warrior with your spellbook on a horse. Writing down the spells is not necessary maybe: try 'mending' the papers into a new book. Making it original at the same time! Maybe your DM wants you to think about solutions like this? Good luck!!
Will Brandiman 03-29-05, 09:38 AM	I would suggest that your character leaves the group. There is no point in trying to play a wizard in that sort of environment so don't bother. Just say that you need to leave to pursue your studies and you are sorry that you will be unable to aid the party in its quest. Also explain that you do so only because the hectic pace of the group leaves you no time to develop your skills and abilities (although nobody else seems to have such a problem). Then make up a monk with the Vow of Poverty. :D
Phrennzy 03-29-05, 09:52 AM	The rules exist to protect good players from bad DMs. Now, it is time for... Well, you know by now, right? Hammergun time. Simply TAKE the spells you're entitled to. If you're sixth level, your spellbook should have all the cantrips, your first level spells, and two spells per level after that. Just put them in the book, and tell him "They're mine. You didn't tell the Fighter he coulden't learn his bonus feats. Now shut up." You have the itchiest Hammergun trigger finger I have ever seen. While I think that the Fight Feat argument is good, the way you propose to handle it is very bad. Also, tell him urgency or not, playing this character in this environment has ceased to be fun. Simply tell him, outright, that you are not having fun. Agree 100%. Just keep the safety on the Hammergun, okay?
striderII 03-29-05, 09:54 AM	The rules exist to protect good players from bad DMs. No...no, they don't. They exist because this is a game, and games need rules. Applying motive to a bunch of words in a book is, well...psychotic. Besides, a "bad DM", as you put it, will simply ignore the rules anyway. This is not to say that all DM's who ignore or alter the RAW are bad DM's...this is definitely not the case. Just that a DM who is going to do things like this is going to do it, no matter what the book says. No gaming company in the history of gaming has ever, or will ever, come to your house with the Gaming Police to make sure you're playing the game exactly as written. The idea of it is so ludicrous that it stretches the bounds of reality. Just as players have every right to walk on a DM who enforces poor rulings or changes, if I was a DM and a player (or group) tried to "force" me to run everything the way the rules said, they would be finding a new DM. Being a DM is not about being a hostage, or a trained monkey. As a long time DM, I am rather insulted and repulsed by this mindset. Either play the game in a cooperative manner, or find a new hobby. (This goes for DM's and players alike). Simply TAKE the spells you're entitled to. If you're sixth level, your spellbook should have all the cantrips, your first level spells, and two spells per level after that. Just put them in the book, and tell him "They're mine. You didn't tell the Fighter he coulden't learn his bonus feats. Now shut up." Right...this is a wonderful bit of advice. Let's just continue to foster an antagonistic situation, shall we? It would be horribly stupid to, say, talk to the DM or something. [/sarcasm] Dumbest. Advice. Ever. Also, tell him urgency or not, playing this character in this environment has ceased to be fun. Simply tell him, outright, that you are not having fun. Wow, Shadowdragon, despite your best effort, you managed to squeeze in some bit of useful advice. The game is about fun. If you're not having fun, *talk* to the DM. Simple. Ze Mighty Vegetable is, simply, wrong. The wealth-by-level chart is not only a right, but it is a requirement. There is only one requirement in this game: HAVE FUN. No other rule, power, ability, amount of wealth, magic item, spell, or anything else in any book every printed is a *requirement*. Please, Shadowdragon, use whatever amount of brain you might have and get a clue, and get off your deliberately antagonistic "DM vs. Players" bandwagon. It's gotten quite old. To the OP: while the DM is perfectly within his or her rights to change or ignore rules as they see fit, a good DM will do so with the players' enjoyment in mind. It could be that whatever section of the FR that you are exploring is particularly low on magic, or there could be other story-related reasons. That all being said, this situation smacks of DM inexperience. It seems to me like the DM(s) are still relatively new, and don't have all the subtle nuances of good story development down. This is something that will come in time - even those of us with years and years of experience have things to learn and refine. Just sit down and talk with your group in a calm, rational manner. Tell them you're not having fun. Tell them why. Work together, as a *group* and forge the kind of game that you will all have fun playing in, and running. That is how you make a game that is not a war between DMs and players, which I feel goes horribly against the grain of the game, and the hobby. strider
MrkGrismer 03-29-05, 10:22 AM	The 2 spells per level of the wizard is a class feature, a DM should be wary of simply removing it. The DM does not however, have to allow those spells to be any spells the player decides upon. If this is the case then a reasonable alternative should be proposed, perhaps the DM comes up with a spell-rarity/difficulty chart for the wizard to roll against in order to 'figure-out' his two spells each level. Requiring the wizard to pay for the spells and be stingy on the treasure is not a good idea. It is unfair to the wizard. If he were a sorcerer would he have to pay for new spells? In addition, as has been mentioned by others on this thread the idea of finding 35 spell books each with a single spell in them is unrealistic in the extreme and smacks of a DM vendetta against the wizard. Especially if they have encoutered opponent wizards and beaten them. My recommendation: tell the DM that you did not know about all the restrictions that were being houseruled onto wizards, and as such you would like to remake your character as a sorcerer, since you cannot play the wizard. Since you didn't know that the wizard was going to have his two spells per level houseruled away, the DM should have no problem with allowing you to remake your character. Of course, make sure you ask what houserules affect the sorcerer -- in advance. A low magic/low money campaign can be fun, even one where the wizard character is being handicapped by not having sufficient downtime to do everything needed. But that doesn't seem to be all that is occuring here, removing the two spell per level and distributing spells in silly single-spell spellbooks is just wrong. As mentioned, in such a spell book the majority of pages would be blank. Your character should be able to remove the pages that have each spell on them and fashion his own spell book from them, thus reducing the number of spellbooks down to one, maybe two.
hensteeth 03-29-05, 10:34 AM	I would like to explain the spell books. I received the spell books from the school. Therefore they are considered training books and as a result they only hold one spell each. Our sorc found another spell book witha handful of spells. The jerk wouldnt give it to me, so I had to barter with him. The deal was I get to copy the spells, but I have to give him the book back and a scroll of each spell. He's chaotic, and it's meant nothing but trouble.... During these adventures there have been found 2 spell books outside of the books from the school. A total of around 8-9 spells plus cantrips. Is this normal? 6 levels = 12 spells, plus 8 = 20 spells for a 6th level wizard? Plus 35 books from the school = 55 spells?
Will Brandiman 03-29-05, 10:37 AM	Is this normal? Nothing you've described is normal.
Father Dale 03-29-05, 11:16 AM	Wow. I would be extremely PO'd if any of the guys that DM's in my group did this to me if I were playing a wizard. He has severely nerfed your character. You are as weak as a commoner, probably more so because you probably have feats that are compliment spellcasting, and which won't do you much good. Taking away the wizards 2 free spells per level would be, I think, equivalent to a level adjustment of -2. You should be getting extra experience in my opinion, because the combats are much tougher for you than they should be.
legowarrior 03-29-05, 12:22 PM	Are you good, if not, tell that the demon lord isn't your problem, switch to evil, and help the demon lord. If you cackle a lot, you have to get a lot of XP for role playing.
Bonzai 03-29-05, 12:27 PM	I already posted some on your other post, but I will repeat some of it again here. The 2 spells per lvl is a class feature. Yes, you get to pick them, and no you don't have to pay to scribe them. This is a very important feaure for a wizard. RP wise they represent your own private research, and the mastery of magic enough to advance to the next lvl. Balance wise, they are the only spells a player is garunteed to be able to pick. The DM controlls all the other spells you get, so this is your way of personalizing the character.If the DM disagrees, show him the wizard section and have him re-read it. If he still disagrees tell him fine, but that you expect every member of the party to have to find a teacher to learn any new feats or class abilities. That should stop the advancement of the entire party and drive the point home. Either automatically award the skills/feats/class features every lvl, or allow for generous in game down time. If that still doesn't work, wait till it's another dm's turn to resume play. Second, I read that you spent a lot of time on a boat. Were you rowing? If not, then that is a perfect in game opportunity to catch up on your scribing. Always have writing materials in your pack, as you will need to take advantage of what time is open to you. A sea voyage is a perfect opportunity. Lastly, in the lower lvls a Wizard is always broke. Buying and scribing spells, components, making scrolls and other items. They all burn away the gp at low lvls. Not to mention the standard rush for gear that goes on at these lvls. Bear with it, it will get better. Be thankfull. At least he is letting you memorize your spells each day. Wait till you get a dm that forces a party to be on the move several days straight of hard action. Then you really become useless.
MrkGrismer 03-29-05, 12:36 PM	I would like to explain the spell books. I received the spell books from the school. Therefore they are considered training books and as a result they only hold one spell each. As what? A graduation present? If they are "training books" then they probably shouldn't have been lent out, instead your character should have been able to use them to scribe the spells into his own personal spellbook. If the DM(s) won't allow that, rip the covers off. Since they don't have empty pages, all of the pages together won't take up anymore room then your own personal spellbook.
pres_man 03-29-05, 01:51 PM	Wow, where to begin? We have only been playing for a few months and are on our second dm. The next time you all meet for gaming ask to talk before you begin. Explain that in a situation where DMs are changing it is necessary for certain procedures to be standard. If one DM allows wizards to get their 2 spells/lvl then all DMs need to allow it. If one DM allows Complete Warrior to be used all DMs need to allow it. etc etc. Otherwise you have PCs who suddenly become worthless when a new DM comes in. Therefore it is necessary that all potential DMs get a say on any rule and the group agrees to the majority decision. During this time period, we have realistic treasure of around 12k and a magic item worth another 15k. We are all either 6th or 7th level, which means that our party wealth should be in the 75k + range. As many mentions high wealth is not really necessary for a party, unless the DMs are sending things at the party that can't be defeated with expensive items. If the encounters are balanced for low wealth then it is ok. During game play we have been wisked from one area to another with no time inbetween. I know that sometimes I get into these type of grooves. You have to get on to the next fight, no down time! Of course the guy with the gun who never reloads/restocks his bullets finds himself with a worthless piece of metal fairly quickly. Down time isn't wasting time it is preparation time. During this second campaign the rules have been firmed. The correct term I believe is "nerfed". As others have said, requiring training (free of charge mind you) to get your 2 spells/lvl is certainly a good roleplaying decision. Of course to keep things balanced this means requiring all types of training for all PCs. Sorcerers don't get to know spells for free they have to spend down time getting in touch with their inner powers. Fighters don't learn feats without down time, so they can be trained. And skills, don't even get me started. So it would be ok, as long as a)time is given to do it and b)everyone is treated the same. During the second campaign I have found 35 spell books with one spell each from level 1 to 3. Each person can only carry 10 books per dm. Spell books with only 1 spell in them are called scrolls. Perhaps your DM doesn't know the rules for scrolls, point them out to him. Otherwise just rip the pages with the spells on them out and chuck the books (probably want to keep a couple intact for later when other DMs are running). Carrying the pages for 35 spells is much easier then carrying 35 mostly empty spell books. Good luck to you, I suggest you retire this character until a new DM comes in (have him go off to scribe all of the spells he now has). If you haven't paid the sorcerer back, suggest that they stop by to get the scrolls later. This will tie your wizard to the party still. Then bring in a new wizard, an elf. Have him with the stats of a fighter, including low intelligence. Then play him as a low hp fighter. When the DM asks why is not casting spells tell him, he doesn't have time to learn them, he's too busy fighting. :D
ShadowDragon8685 03-29-05, 02:08 PM	[quiote]You have the itchiest Hammergun trigger finger I have ever seen.[/quote] That's because I've seen far too many of bad DMs for my taste. I actually took Craft(Hammergun) and built one that operates in semi, burst, and full auto. Simply put, this is a lot like what the DM who nerfed my Arcane Mechanik was like. They have no sensititivity for the poor ****ard stuck playing the Wizard/Other Bookcaster, and when you tell him "No, the rules are like this, and here is why," he says "Nuh-uh! Shut up, it's a houserule." A houserule that none of us were told about in advance? A houserule that comes up to smack down me, and only me? Sorry, pal. 'Houserules' like this, suck. The only Houserules should be made with the consent of ALL the game-players. This includes the DM and the players. This DM is being unreasonably abusive, and I find it hard to believe that if you simply tell him you're not having fun, and why, and what he can do to correct it, he'll simply fix the problem. It's been my experiance that Bad DMs refuse to listen, and either say that you're not playing right, or you don't know why being in a sucktacular position is fun, and they insist that they're doing it right, and that you're simply defective when it comes to having fun. That's why I advocate the use of the hammergun after the very first negotiations fail.
Evil Wizard 03-29-05, 02:16 PM	Posted by hensteeth Our sorc found another spell book witha handful of spells. The jerk wouldnt give it to me, so I had to barter with him. The deal was I get to copy the spells, but I have to give him the book back and a scroll of each spell. He's chaotic, and it's meant nothing but trouble.... Two words: charm person. This is nothing a little compulsion magic won't fix. What does he think he's going to do with it, anyway? "No fighter, you can't have this magic sword! I can't even use it, but I'm going to keep it all for myself!" I normally wouldn't advocate PC vs PC like this, but he's asking for it. Also, I agree with the other suggestions given about tearing the pages out of the spellbooks. Unbind all the "training" books, and just hang on to the spell pages; keep them tucked into one empty cover to keep track of them if you need to. If you're ever given an opportunity to stop at a reasonably large city, you can get them rebound as a single spell book later.
striderII 03-29-05, 02:31 PM	Sorry, pal. 'Houserules' like this, suck. The only Houserules should be made with the consent of ALL the game-players. This includes the DM and the players. This DM is being unreasonably abusive, and I find it hard to believe that if you simply tell him you're not having fun, and why, and what he can do to correct it, he'll simply fix the problem. It's been my experiance that Bad DMs refuse to listen, and either say that you're not playing right, or you don't know why being in a sucktacular position is fun, and they insist that they're doing it right, and that you're simply defective when it comes to having fun. This is partially true. All of the players must either agree or accept to play under a certain set of rules. I will maintain my position that these DMs appear to be inexperienced, however, until or unless other information comes to the fore. Remember, folks, we're only hearing one side of the argument here. (Not to discredit the OP, I'm just pointing out what should be obvious). The other downside, Shads, is that it seems as though (from this and other threads), your opinion is that the DMs have to play your way, and only your way, or else they are a "bad DM" or whatever negative appelation of the week you'd like to attach to them. Which is rather sad. A question to the OP, however: how long have you guys been playing? How long have the DMs been running games? I'm curious as to whether this problem is from inexperience, or a failing of some sort. strider
VirgilCaine 03-29-05, 02:36 PM	This is partially true. All of the players must either agree or accept to play under a certain set of rules. All of the players should be informed of any and all houserules BEFORE THE GAME STARTS. It's that simple. IMO, anything like this is just "negative favoritism"--he doesn't like you or wizards or something, so he "houserules" that you suck. These guys sound like idiots--the sorceror charging you for spells [when you are spell-poor], and the DM spanking wizards for no apparent reason. OP: And the DM didn't mention that this is a fast-paced, high-tension game when he was telling you about it?
striderII 03-29-05, 02:55 PM	All of the players should be informed of any and all houserules BEFORE THE GAME STARTS. It's that simple. IMO, anything like this is just "negative favoritism"--he doesn't like you or wizards or something, so he "houserules" that you suck. So....what part of "all players must either agree or accept to play under a certain set of rules" is confusing to you? Basically, you just completely agreed with me - was that your intention, and you were just capitalizing things for no good reason, or what? strider
RogerWilco 03-29-05, 04:39 PM	First I want to tell you that we're rotating DM's too, and until we had all been a DM we made mistakes like this too. I think it's inexperience. Does he play a Fighter when not DM'ing? Most of us were basically best at DM'ing the class that our own character was. I think he basically hasn't studied/played Wizards enough. Secondly, when being inexperienced, do not use houserules, but try to stick as close to the written rules as possible, you are not yet capable of adjucating the effect of houserules. This includes the "Wealth by Character Level tables" in the DMG. When more experienced this is no longer necessary, because an experienced DM will know how much weaker/stronger to make a monster to keep the fight fair when giving out less/more money. I think a DM need at least 1 year to become experienced, compared to 1-2 months for a character, as he/she essentially has to master the details of all classes, instead of just one. The story sounds great though, I think your DM could become quite good, only needs to try to keep stuff fun/fair a little more. If your DM is giving less treasure and spells compared to the guidelines in the DMG, he/she should give more XP, as the encounters are tougher for your party as they should be with adequate resources. I agree with the other posters, that if your DM doesn't allow the two free spell/level, he/she should also not allow characters to get feats/skill points/more BAB/Saving Throws/sneak attack/spells for the sorcerer/etc. Only the increase in HitDice should be free, everything else then would require training. From the SRDA wizard begins play with a spellbook containing all 0-level wizard spells (except those from her prohibited school or schools, if any; see School Specialization, below) plus three 1st-level spells of your choice. For each point of Intelligence bonus the wizard has, the spellbook holds one additional 1st-level spell of your choice. At each new wizard level, she gains two new spells of any spell level or levels that she can cast (based on her new wizard level) for her spellbook. At any time, a wizard can also add spells found in other wizards’ spellbooks to her own. So assuming you have INT16, at 7th level you should have at least all 0th level spells 6 1st level spells +12 spells of your choice (probably 2 4th, 4 3rd, 4 2nd, 2 1st) And next to that maybe 5-15 extra spells found in captured spellbooks/scrolls, depending on the DM. as a guideline you should basically always know at least one spell more at each level compared to the Sorcerer, to keep it fair. I think spellbooks with just one spell are silly, those should be scrolls. I think having 35 scrolls is actually quite generous, but I think in the end it will boil down to the 5-15 number, as you need to make Decipher Script and Spellcraft Checks to read them. (maybe you can use the spell "Read Magic" a lot to get reduce this) This is the second text of interest to you also from the SRD: The most important part is: Spells Gained at a New Level: Wizards perform a certain amount of spell research between adventures. Each time a character attains a new wizard level, she gains two spells of her choice to add to her spellbook. The two free spells must be of spell levels she can cast. If she has chosen to specialize in a school of magic, one of the two free spells must be from her specialty school. Note that a wizard does not have to pay these costs in time or gold for the spells she gains for free at each new level. ARCANE MAGICAL WRITINGS To record an arcane spell in written form, a character uses complex notation that describes the magical forces involved in the spell. The writer uses the same system no matter what her native language or culture. However, each character uses the system in her own way. Another person’s magical writing remains incomprehensible to even the most powerful wizard until she takes time to study and decipher it. To decipher an arcane magical writing (such as a single spell in written form in another’s spellbook or on a scroll), a character must make a Spellcraft check (DC 20 + the spell’s level). If the skill check fails, the character cannot attempt to read that particular spell again until the next day. A read magic spell automatically deciphers a magical writing without a skill check. If the person who created the magical writing is on hand to help the reader, success is also automatic. Once a character deciphers a particular magical writing, she does not need to decipher it again. Deciphering a magical writing allows the reader to identify the spell and gives some idea of its effects (as explained in the spell description). If the magical writing was a scroll and the reader can cast arcane spells, she can attempt to use the scroll. Wizard Spells and Borrowed Spellbooks A wizard can use a borrowed spellbook to prepare a spell she already knows and has recorded in her own spellbook, but preparation success is not assured. First, the wizard must decipher the writing in the book (see Arcane Magical Writings, above). Once a spell from another spellcaster’s book is deciphered, the reader must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell’s level) to prepare the spell. If the check succeeds, the wizard can prepare the spell. She must repeat the check to prepare the spell again, no matter how many times she has prepared it before. If the check fails, she cannot try to prepare the spell from the same source again until the next day. (However, as explained above, she does not need to repeat a check to decipher the writing.) Adding Spells to a Wizard’s Spellbook Wizards can add new spells to their spellbooks through several methods. If a wizard has chosen to specialize in a school of magic, she can learn spells only from schools whose spells she can cast. Spells Gained at a New Level: Wizards perform a certain amount of spell research between adventures. Each time a character attains a new wizard level, she gains two spells of her choice to add to her spellbook. The two free spells must be of spell levels she can cast. If she has chosen to specialize in a school of magic, one of the two free spells must be from her specialty school. Spells Copied from Another’s Spellbook or a Scroll: A wizard can also add a spell to her book whenever she encounters one on a magic scroll or in another wizard’s spellbook. No matter what the spell’s source, the wizard must first decipher the magical writing (see Arcane Magical Writings, above). Next, she must spend a day studying the spell. At the end of the day, she must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell’s level). A wizard who has specialized in a school of spells gains a +2 bonus on the Spellcraft check if the new spell is from her specialty school. She cannot, however, learn any spells from her prohibited schools. If the check succeeds, the wizard understands the spell and can copy it into her spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook, below). The process leaves a spellbook that was copied from unharmed, but a spell successfully copied from a magic scroll disappears from the parchment. If the check fails, the wizard cannot understand or copy the spell. She cannot attempt to learn or copy that spell again until she gains another rank in Spellcraft. A spell that was being copied from a scroll does not vanish from the scroll. In most cases, wizards charge a fee for the privilege of copying spells from their spellbooks. This fee is usually equal to the spell’s level x 50 gp. Independent Research: A wizard also can research a spell independently, duplicating an existing spell or creating an entirely new one. Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook Once a wizard understands a new spell, she can record it into her spellbook. Time: The process takes 24 hours, regardless of the spell’s level. Space in the Spellbook: A spell takes up one page of the spellbook per spell level. Even a 0-level spell (cantrip) takes one page. A spellbook has one hundred pages. Materials and Costs: Materials for writing the spell cost 100 gp per page. Note that a wizard does not have to pay these costs in time or gold for the spells she gains for free at each new level. Replacing and Copying Spellbooks A wizard can use the procedure for learning a spell to reconstruct a lost spellbook. If she already has a particular spell prepared, she can write it directly into a new book at a cost of 100 gp per page (as noted in Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook, above). The process wipes the prepared spell from her mind, just as casting it would. If she does not have the spell prepared, she can prepare it from a borrowed spellbook and then write it into a new book. Duplicating an existing spellbook uses the same procedure as replacing it, but the task is much easier. The time requirement and cost per page are halved. Selling a Spellbook Captured spellbooks can be sold for a gp amount equal to one-half the cost of purchasing and inscribing the spells within (that is, one-half of 100 gp per page of spells). A spellbook entirely filled with spells (that is, with one hundred pages of spells inscribed in it) is worth 5,000 gp.
eRaz0r 03-29-05, 05:38 PM	Don't forget your best friend : Spellcraft If the DM is throwing spellbooks (not scrolls) at you, you don't even *have* to copy them into your own spellbook. You can prepare the spells right off those pages with a spellcraft roll. (see previous post) Yep. Oh - and since you can't prepare spells if you're distracted, you're always going to be taking 10 on that roll. If you've maxed out your spellcraft skill, you're going to be automatically able to prepare spells out of someone elses spellbook of any spell you can cast. See, once you've deciphered the spell it's only a DC 15+Spell Level to prepare a borrowed spell. Since you're going to have 4+Character Level ranks and at least a +1 Int Modifier, that's 4+CL+Int+ take 10 vs 15+Spell Level. Well your highest spell level is CL/2, so that's 3+Int+10 + CL vs 15+CL/2 = Int +13 + CL/2 vs 15 = INT +CL/2 vs 2 So as soon as your CL/2+Int Modifer is equal to 2, you can do it automatically. The only chance you've got of failing is if you're a 3rd level Wizard with INT=11 or less, or have no ranks in spellcraft. So just unbind all those spellbooks using your Craft(Bookbinder) or Profession (Scribe) skills. Just put the looseleaf pages into a safe place. They're now effectively your spells and you didn't have to spend a copper piece... If the DM has a problem with this - point him to the section on the skill Spellcraft and the section on Taking 10. If he houserules away this ability.. well there's always the hammergun, right ?
hensteeth 03-29-05, 05:46 PM	We have a mixed group of guys playing. Some have never played and some have played quite a while. I do not know how long they have dm'd. I do enjoy the game as we have had incredible adventures to date. Also, we have been getting great xp. After roughly 8 sessions of roughly 8 hours each, we have gone from 1st level to 6th level. While the encounters have been very tough we have been richly rewarded with xp. To wit, we had a tpk with one survivor. Later on the one guy to get resurrected by his goddess was killed again. Needless to say I have only been a minor part of our success. I do think that each person who dms has to be very flexible because we are on a rotation.
hensteeth 03-29-05, 05:50 PM	Can you take ten on the decipher arcane? That was the one I was concerned with. I was hoping to get a bonus to decipher due to them being school books. I have 17 spell craft so i was pretty confident on the scribe.
Merestil Haye 03-29-05, 05:51 PM	Don't forget your best friend : Spellcraft If the DM is throwing spellbooks (not scrolls) at you, you don't even *have* to copy them into your own spellbook. You can prepare the spells right off those pages with a spellcraft roll. (snip) If the DM has a problem with this - point him to the section on the skill Spellcraft and the section on Taking 10. If he houserules away this ability.. well there's always the hammergun, right ?This turns out not to be the case.Wizard Spells and Borrowed Spellbooks A wizard can use a borrowed spellbook to prepare a spell she already knows and has recorded in her own spellbook, but preparation success is not assured.(bolding mine). To translate; if the spell is not already in your spellbook, you cannot prepare it. It is an easy mistake to make (I made the same error at first glance) but it is not accurate. If Hensteeth's DMs are making this error as well it might explain their rulings. They may be allowing him to prepare from his training books as if they were his own spellbook. Interesting - but a severe handicap. If Hensteeth is not getting his two free spells per level, then he will be unable to contribute to the actions of the party at higher levels. Eventually he will really be a drag on the party. Hensteeth, what level is your character, and how many spells does he know?
eRaz0r 03-29-05, 05:55 PM	Damn! That's what you get for referring to the Skill description instead of the primary section on magic. Well that puts a cramp on my characters style... and this players' as well.
Ze_Mighty_Vegetable 03-29-05, 06:18 PM	Ack. It's kinda required for the CR system to make sense. But you can play with more or less wealth in the party if you adjust NPCs and opposition accordingly. Not necessarily. If the group powergame, you can keep the monsters as they are. Beside, it's just gonna mean the players have to think, to plan, not just rely on magic items/feats combos. True, but some characters, especially wizards, require downtime. As D&D is a game and games are supposed to be fair, the DM should tell the players that this campaign does not offer much downtime so that they can consider this when making their characters. not true. Nobody REQUIRE downtime. Granted, a spellcaster's downtime is gonna be profitable. All wizards can scribe scrolls, but scribing scrolls is not that time consuming. Making weapons and wondrous items, now, that take time. But YOU (the player) must choose these feats. They are not granted automaticaly to a wizard. If YOU want to take these feats, YOU have to ask your DM if there is gonna be downtime, not the other way around). Beside, reducing downtime is a great mean to control the magic items your players have access to. Carrying 35 books (without magical aid, of course) is impossible, sure, and would overstrech the believability of the campaign. However, each spellbook to be found being a one-spell-book does the same. A simple solution would be to put all those pages into one or two books and drop the empty covers. True. But as a matter of principle, I don't think the players have a right to demand convenient magic items. Random treasure IS random treasure. If you want something in particular (a huge spellbook), YOU have to search for it. Applying realism to an aspect of magic is contradicionary in itself. Utterly false. Even if something's not real, you can make it as close as possible to real life and still preserve the surnatural part. Low-realism magic: I think and a spell happen. High-realism: Magic got rules, laws, just as physic does. By manipulating the "magic energy" in precise ways, I'm causing an effect. There's nothing wrong with training rules if they apply to all characters equally. If I make a wizard learn their spells from an actual source, then I have to do the same with all feats; and have to make characters train for extended periods, preferably with qualified instructors, to gain BAB and other class features. Gain BAB: Well, I trained for a whole level by hacking at monsters. Of course, I'll pick some pointers and increase my BAB. Gain feats: Most feats represent an affinity with a kind of manoeuver. Just by fighting with a weapon, you'll eventualy gonna develop weapon focus... Having to research your spells is 100% logical. The wizards still gain feats and stuff as the rest of the classes. nothing's unbalancing. That said, you're supposed to get 2 free spells per level. If the DM change that, he should warn you before.
ShadowDragon8685 03-29-05, 07:24 PM	Ze, you're the kind of DM who vicariously falls back to an argument of realism, logic, or game balance, as it least favors your PCs. This is behavior that is worthy of hammergun time, full-auto. If not the Sledgehammer Bazooka. Simply put, a Wizard requires downtime. Just in the same way as a Cleric requires a connection to his or her God. I played a game, a one-shot, where the DM had us all taken to some alternate reality mishmess, where our magic didn't work. The wizard got his magic back after a short time, but I didn't get mine back, because my God didn't exist there. That, was complete and utter bullcrap. Simply put, requiring training for CLASS FEATURES is bullcrap. A Wizard gets two free spells per level, a Fighter gets feats galore, etcetera. He dosen't have to say he's been researching them.
Darastin 03-29-05, 08:35 PM	Not necessarily. If the group powergame, you can keep the monsters as they are. A rules set has to assume a standard. If you deviate from that standard in one aspect (e.g. wealth by level), you might have to adjust in other aspects as well. However, running a "poor" game usually means running a generally low-powered game, so making uber-chars to compensate for the lack of equipment might be the wrong answer. Beside, it's just gonna mean the players have to think, to plan, not just rely on magic items/feats combos. Not exactly. Having less resources means having less possibilities. What if you have lots of shiny, magical toys and can make excellent plans? You can achieve more than without them. not true. Nobody REQUIRE downtime. Actually, wizards do. Not for item creation (I consider this to be fully optional; besides, other casters can make items, too), but for spells known. If the wizard has to stick with the two spells he gets automatically, he has approximately the same number of spells known as a sorcerer - who can cast more often and with greater flexibility. True. But as a matter of principle, I don't think the players have a right to demand convenient magic items. Random treasure IS random treasure. If you want something in particular (a huge spellbook), YOU have to search for it. There is a difference between inconvenient items and items that have little reason to exist. And random treasure? Well, I don't believe in random treasure. I believe in treasure that makes sense. That doesn't mean that it has to be useful for the PCs. Besides, single-spell-spellbooks are hardly random. They seem to have been deliberately created by the DM (and not an actual in-game wizard). Utterly false. Even if something's not real, you can make it as close as possible to real life and still preserve the surnatural part. Low-realism magic: I think and a spell happen. High-realism: Magic got rules, laws, just as physic does. By manipulating the "magic energy" in precise ways, I'm causing an effect. Sure, you can have game rules for magic, and fluff that defines how it works in the game world. But be careful with physics. Magic, by its very nature, defies physics. If magic were even close to realistic, a wizard casting meteor swarm would have to deal with some tremendous recoil. Fireballs would create pressure. And so on... Gain BAB: Well, I trained for a whole level by hacking at monsters. Of course, I'll pick some pointers and increase my BAB. Gain feats: Most feats represent an affinity with a kind of manoeuver. Just by fighting with a weapon, you'll eventualy gonna develop weapon focus... And a wizard, who studies his spells every morning, develops new and better spells on his own. Where's the difference? Having to research your spells is 100% logical. As is having to find an instructor for feats. The wizards still gain feats and stuff as the rest of the classes. nothing's unbalancing. If the wizard has to spend effort to gain a part of the features he's supposed to get when leveling up, and the other characters get them all for free, then there is imablance. That said, you're supposed to get 2 free spells per level. If the DM change that, he should warn you before. Absolutely. That's what rule 0 is all about. This is behavior that is worthy of hammergun time, full-auto. If not the Sledgehammer Bazooka. Please, keep the safety on that thing. Assault hammerguns (with DM-screen-penetrating hammerheads) make me nervous. Simply put, requiring training for CLASS FEATURES is bullcrap. A Wizard gets two free spells per level, a Fighter gets feats galore, etcetera. He dosen't have to say he's been researching them. As I have said before; such optional training rules can work very well. However, each class needs approximately the same amount of training, or it becomes unfair. Just my two €-Cents; Darastin
weasel fierce 03-29-05, 08:40 PM	"They're really more like guidelines"
PhaedrusXY 03-29-05, 08:56 PM	The 2 spells per lvl is a class feature. Yes, you get to pick them, and no you don't have to pay to scribe them. This is a very important feaure for a wizard. RP wise they represent your own private research, and the mastery of magic enough to advance to the next lvl. Balance wise, they are the only spells a player is garunteed to be able to pick. The DM controlls all the other spells you get, so this is your way of personalizing the character.This is exacly right. If the DM disagrees, show him the wizard section and have him re-read it. If he still disagrees tell him fine, but that you expect every member of the party to have to find a teacher to learn any new feats or class abilities.I'd say that if he still doesn't capitulate, you're better off just finding a new DM. I play the game to have fun, and playing with an asshat, control-freak DM isn't my idea of fun.
Heahengel 03-29-05, 10:13 PM	If you are going to require training for class abilities, then you need to give the players downtime in which to train. Saying that you need to have downtime to get new spells into your spellbook, and then not giving you any downtime is basically houseruling that you don't get any new spells. If a DM decided that a fighter had to train to gain new feats, and then never let him train, then he is being massively unfair. Even without any of it's class abilities, a barbarian would be better. Besides, I agree with what others have said, that a wizard's 2 spells a level are their own research, assumed to have happened over the course of the level, applying what they have learned about magic to their abilities. Also, the fact that they aren't allowed to find a store when they are in a town is absurd. If you don't want them to get certain things, then the store doesn't stock them, but where are the characters getting food, and necessary suplies like arrows?
weasel fierce 03-30-05, 01:02 AM	Also, the fact that they aren't allowed to find a store when they are in a town is absurd. If you don't want them to get certain things, then the store doesn't stock them, but where are the characters getting food, and necessary suplies like arrows? I think he was referring to not having stores selling magical items. If there were no stores, period, then its definately getting absurd
Heahengel 03-30-05, 03:16 AM	During both campaigns, I have had basically 3 days to scribe scrolls or scribe into my spell book. Neither adventures have we been able to go to a store, and in fact I feel like they deliberately prevented us. So we wander around with tons of bulky heavy treasure with little value and almost no magic items. I want to point out that this is a FR campaign so there is plenty of magic. We have spent a great deal of time on a boat so I was not able to 'get to town'. We have been 'in town' four times at least. In each time, we have been unable to make it to a store for various reasons (which is why I think both dms willfully denied us the option). I am sure that if I want to go my own way, I will either be punished for it by missing out on huge xp or they will come up with another reason why I can't like the previous 4 times. I've already received indication that the time allotment is not going to happen by way of the dm stating that we are out to stop a demon lord and you can't just take a couple of months off or rather "While some shopping can be done soon, if not immed. taking 60 days while he runs amuck may not be the wizest course. " These are the two times that the OP has mentioned it. I took this to pretty clearly mean that the party has not been able to buy or sell anything even though they have been 'in town' 4 times, because of contrived reasons. Luckily, it seems that this will change soon. To feed my own perverse interest, why couldn't you go to the store the first 4 times?
striderII 03-30-05, 09:27 AM	Simply put, a Wizard requires downtime. Well, it depends on what you consider "downtime", in this context at least. If by "downtime", you mean "time between adventures, where the party has access to a library, lab, etc.", then I would say that wizards only *require* that if they want to do item creation, or research entirely new spells. Simply learning the 2 spells per level takes nothing more than having access to some version of the new spell (from a scroll, captured spell book, whatever), and some time here and there. Riding in a wagon (or maybe on a horse at no faster than a walk), time around the campfire at night, during rest times - all of these provide the wizard with an opportunity to study. As a DM, I feel that this is enough to provide that class feature of 2 spells per level. Of course, I also typically provide adequate downtime, because my games are very player-structured (in that, while I provide a framework of a plot, the players make the plot go), so it's a moot point, really. Simply put, requiring training for CLASS FEATURES is bullcrap. A Wizard gets two free spells per level, a Fighter gets feats galore, etcetera. He dosen't have to say he's been researching them. Requiring training for class features is a DM's option, it's been around for quite a few years, and I'm sure many troupes use it, and it works for them. Just because *you* don't like it doesn't make it "bullcrap", except in your own opinion. I personally think that mercurial weapons, epic level anything, monkey grip, most of the exotic weapons, gestalt characters, and quite a few other things are "bullcrap", too, but that not only doesn't make it *fact*, but it doesn't change the fact that other troupes enjoy these things. It just means I don't play with those groups. strider
silvermist 03-30-05, 10:29 AM	i would tear the spell pages out of the spell books. i would throw away the covers. this would very likely anger the dm. if i was dm or player i would volunteer these spells to be treated as scrolls. (ie: one time use) but insist on having things change soon. also i would take ranks in craft hammergun.
Ayrynthyn 03-30-05, 11:21 AM	This turns out not to be the case.(bolding mine). To translate; if the spell is not already in your spellbook, you cannot prepare it. It is an easy mistake to make (I made the same error at first glance) but it is not accurate. im going to humbly disagree with this. Arcane Magical Writings To record an arcane spell in written form, a character uses complex notation that describes the magical forces involved in the spell. The writer uses the same system no matter what her native language or culture. However, each character uses the system in her own way. Another person’s magical writing remains incomprehensible to even the most powerful wizard until she takes time to study and decipher it. To decipher an arcane magical writing (such as a single spell in written form in another’s spellbook or on a scroll), a character must make a Spellcraft check (DC 20 + the spell’s level). If the skill check fails, the character cannot attempt to read that particular spell again until the next day. A read magic spell automatically deciphers a magical writing without a skill check. If the person who created the magical writing is on hand to help the reader, success is also automatic. Once a character deciphers a particular magical writing, she does not need to decipher it again. Deciphering a magical writing allows the reader to identify the spell and gives some idea of its effects (as explained in the spell description). If the magical writing was a scroll and the reader can cast arcane spells, she can attempt to use the scroll. Wizard Spells and Borrowed Spellbooks A wizard can use a borrowed spellbook to prepare a spell she already knows and has recorded in her own spellbook, but preparation success is not assured. First, the wizard must decipher the writing in the book (see Arcane Magical Writings, above). Once a spell from another spellcaster’s book is deciphered, the reader must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell’s level) to prepare the spell. If the check succeeds, the wizard can prepare the spell. She must repeat the check to prepare the spell again, no matter how many times she has prepared it before. If the check fails, she cannot try to prepare the spell from the same source again until the next day. (However, as explained above, she does not need to repeat a check to decipher the writing.) ...if you take that in it's full context, i read it as, find a book, decipher script/read magic, The spell is worded wierd, and in a different dialect or system than your used to so it's a spell craft check to memorize it on a day to day basis from there on until you can re-write it in your own book in a way that make better sense to you. As far as the 35 spell books is concerend, each book weighing 3 lb, that's 105 lbs. couple of large sacks, or a nice large chest and get a hireling to cart them around for you. um... yeah, all that wrong stuff i said. please disreguard... whoops :embarrass In all seriousness, the best answer ive seen is So what's stopping you taking time off? Even heroes need a rest occasionally. If your DM says you need to be in a big city or something to sell your items, (which is a perfectly reasonable thing to say) and learn your "bonus" new spells (a bit harsh, in my opinion) then head for the city. Hopefully the rest of the characters will come with you. If not, fantasy wizards are forever wandering off to put their affairs in order, so you'll be following a noble tradition.
Ze_Mighty_Vegetable 03-30-05, 12:56 PM	A rules set has to assume a standard. If you deviate from that standard in one aspect (e.g. wealth by level), you might have to adjust in other aspects as well. However, running a "poor" game usually means running a generally low-powered game, so making uber-chars to compensate for the lack of equipment might be the wrong answer. True. Still, I had a game where the players were too powerfull as they were and where my reducing the rewards (magic items) prevented it from becoming a travesty. I still weep when I think of this game too much :( Not exactly. Having less resources means having less possibilities. What if you have lots of shiny, magical toys and can make excellent plans? You can achieve more than without them. Yes, more equipment means more options... yet, consider this example... You're camping for a week. wich one is gonna necessitate more thinking and planning? A): Camping in a winnebago? B): Survival camping (you have a knife and 5 matches). Save goes fro magic items. I trully feel that less magic items force you to be more ressourceful (as you're lower power...). Actually, wizards do. Not for item creation (I consider this to be fully optional; besides, other casters can make items, too), but for spells known. If the wizard has to stick with the two spells he gets automatically, he has approximately the same number of spells known as a sorcerer - who can cast more often and with greater flexibility. You got me there. I was thinking only of item creation. But I don't think it necessitate downtime. The wizard can trade for spells, can ask NPCs, can do a sidequest to find some... Generaly, you cn research/buy/find/trade spells during the game. no need for downtime. There is a difference between inconvenient items and items that have little reason to exist. And random treasure? Well, I don't believe in random treasure. I believe in treasure that makes sense. That doesn't mean that it has to be useful for the PCs. Besides, single-spell-spellbooks are hardly random. They seem to have been deliberately created by the DM (and not an actual in-game wizard). True. single spell grimoire are not very realistic... Yet, the principle still stand: you find the magic items you find. You can ask for more, but don't feel it's your RIGHT to have more. Sure, you can have game rules for magic, and fluff that defines how it works in the game world. But be careful with physics. Magic, by its very nature, defies physics. If magic were even close to realistic, a wizard casting meteor swarm would have to deal with some tremendous recoil. Fireballs would create pressure. And so on... I'm not saying magic got the same rules as physic. I'm saying, a highly-realistic setting would have rules of magic, laws of magic, the same way (but not the same exact laws) physic is governed by laws and rules. And a wizard, who studies his spells every morning, develops new and better spells on his own. Where's the difference? He's not refining his abilities. He's Creating something new entirely. As is having to find an instructor for feats. Depends wich feat. I'd be hard pressed to justify absolutely needing an instructor for weapon focus, dodge, run, deft fingers, etc... Ze, you're the kind of DM who vicariously falls back to an argument of realism, logic, or game balance, as it least favors your PCs. This is behavior that is worthy of hammergun time, full-auto. If not the Sledgehammer Bazooka. I bow before your maturity. :bow: Simply put, a Wizard requires downtime. Just in the same way as a Cleric requires a connection to his or her God. I played a game, a one-shot, where the DM had us all taken to some alternate reality mishmess, where our magic didn't work. The wizard got his magic back after a short time, but I didn't get mine back, because my God didn't exist there. That, was complete and utter bullcrap. simply put: nope. More complex answer: Bad comparaison. Your wizard can still cast spels, he just have a hard time creating magic items. And researching new spells if he's too lazy to do it in game. Your cleric can't cast period. You're weighting your example... Shadow: someday, you'll learn that bad things happenning in a game can be fun to overcome. At least, more fun than throwing a tantrum about them.
Darastin 03-30-05, 01:56 PM	You got me there. I was thinking only of item creation. But I don't think it necessitate downtime. The wizard can trade for spells, can ask NPCs, can do a sidequest to find some... Generaly, you cn research/buy/find/trade spells during the game. no need for downtime. Research, bedides the amount of research a wizard is assumed to perform to recieve his two new spells per level, requires time. Buying/finding/trading spells gives you... nothing until you copy them in your own spellbook, which requires time. The only alternative would be to master a found spellbook instead of copying spells, but this requires even more time (and a really tough spellcraft check). True. single spell grimoire are not very realistic... You got the idea. However, grimoires will never be "realistic" - it's magic, it cannot be real. I would use the term "believable in the given context". I'm not saying magic got the same rules as physic. I'm saying, a highly-realistic setting would have rules of magic, laws of magic, the same way (but not the same exact laws) physic is governed by laws and rules. Again, this is not realism. This is consistency and believability in the given context. He's not refining his abilities. He's Creating something new entirely. So is the power-attacking fighter who suddenly decides to learn Combat Expertise or Skill Focus: Craft: Basket Weaving (without a single rank in Craft: Basket Weaving - yes, that's possible, although it's a dumb rule IMHO). Depends wich feat. I'd be hard pressed to justify absolutely needing an instructor for weapon focus, dodge, run, deft fingers, etc... And it depends on the spell. Deducting summon monster 2 from summon monster 1 shouldn't require an instructor, too. The most believable solution would be to require special training for anything that is not a logical extension of the characters current, often-used abilities. However, this would lead to lots and lots of case-by-case-decisions, which have the nasty habit of lacking consistency and fairness. Just my two €-Cents; Darastin
Heahengel 03-30-05, 02:12 PM	You got me there. I was thinking only of item creation. But I don't think it necessitate downtime. The wizard can trade for spells, can ask NPCs, can do a sidequest to find some... Generaly, you cn research/buy/find/trade spells during the game. no need for downtime. To expand on what the other responder has said, even if you have a source for new spells, such as those 35 spellbooks, you need to copy them into your own book before you can use them (although people are debating that above). To do this you need to spend 1 day, and 100gp x spell level (or 100gp for a 0level spell). The OP has said that he has recieved 3 days in which to do this over the campaign, and also his group has only gotten 7k gp of total wealth (most locked up in unsold treasure) that must be split 6 ways. Add to that the decision about having to spend research time and money on the base 2 spells/level (which directly contradicts the PHB section on "writing a new spell into a spellbook" on page 179), and then said wizard can only use his starting spells and 3 spells chosen from the 1st 2nd and 3rd level lists, total, and this would cost about half of the wizards total equipment value, assuming that everyone in the party gets an equal share (which it doesn't look like they do, from what has been said). Of course, I believe the situation isn't that extreme, as the previous DM seems to have not worked with these wierd house rules, but if the current DM does not change his stance, it will be crippling for the wizard. What happens when he next levels? He won't have any 4th level spells. Hopefully the DM will give him access to a scroll or two, but he won't have the day necessary to add them to his book, and he won't have the 400gp to do so. On the other hand, it seems like the DM is allowing the wizard to memorize spells from these other spellbooks, so this somewhat ameliorates the situation, but giving him more of these for his 4th level spells will be absurd from a story perspective (as they all came from one plot point a while back), and will restrict his lower level spell selection, as he will have to give up a 1/2/3rd level spellbook for each 4th level spell he wants to be able to use.
JusticeZero 03-30-05, 02:17 PM	You got me there. I was thinking only of item creation. But I don't think it necessitate downtime. The wizard can trade for spells, can ask NPCs, can do a sidequest to find some... Generally, you cn research/buy/find/trade spells during the game. no need for downtime.All those things will require the wizard to copy the spells into his book. That takes time, and the OP has not been given any. The OP does not even get his class ability spells without booking them due to a house rule - and he hasnt been allowed to book spells. Thus, he has no spells.More complex answer: Bad comparaison. Your wizard can still cast spels, he just have a hard time creating magic items. And researching new spells if he's too lazy to do it in game. Your cleric can't cast period. You're weighting your example...The wizard can't cast spells either. He hasn't been able to update his spellbook, on account of a house rule, since level 1. He is now effectively a 1st level wizard with a lot of HP.
cataclyst 03-30-05, 02:32 PM	Yes it's me... [EDITED SEVERAL TIMES] I did it. I took the happy successfull party and sucked them into a cross continental boat trip aboard a ship twice cursed. Travelling with NPCs that may or may not have been the ones sacrificing others on board and summoning Demons. The party even caught their 16 year old charge (they are delivering her to baording school) bloody handed with a knife alone in the room with a now "ex-passenger". The premise is a simple, deliver the towns steward's daughter to school via boat. The school happens to be run by a small group of teachers who are thralls of Grazzt. The boat trip reads kind of like Event Horizon. By the end of the trip all are exhausted and demoralized, one of them is literally crazy and now catatonic. They safely deliver the child into the arms of the school misstresses only to watch (from below in a cavern ) as she and others are sacrificed to bring Grazzt to the Prime Material. The Whole point of this 5 (game days) of adventure was to Stress the characters, test their faith, and make them realize how not in control they are. Lessons they had to learn or they may get the bright idea to attempt to attack Grazzt and his thralls rather than play along as followers. Play along they did and were rewarded with the 30 training books (1 spell each and 10-50 pages of diagrams and insructions meant for teaching), a journal that contains insights into Grazzt's plan, and a list of the graduates of the school now in high places that must be stopped. Grazzt is now loose on the plain and in 12days another sacrifice will be held to further secure his hold. As these 3 sessions took place over 5 days and required stress and constant tension taking a week to scribe was not realistic. In all of the issues raised in this thread there was one that I feel the need to address. What about those 2 "free" spells per level for a wizard. As you might have guessed I focus on roleplay and immersion in my games. I have bent the rule as to these, i accept that. I request that the spell chosen be one he has somehow had access to at some point. wizards do not create spells out of thin air most of the time. they learn them. That said I could have said go ahead and pick any two, and not provided the selection of 30 ( some were rare hard to find BOVD spells) Sorcerers being the opposite. I gave the wizard access to an arcane school for spellbooks to grab. hence the 30 training books. I find it a bit greedy to expect the world and story to stop for the requested 2 months (that was his request) so that he may scribe all these and 100 odd scrolls. There are times for this type of thing, but not in the middle of a "try to banish the Demon Lord from Faerun in just 12 days" campaign.... anyway, if you'd like to learn more feel free to hit up www.auraworks.com/dnd Almost forgot at the end of the last session he had three days to scribe and study as he saw fit during the boat trip from moonshae to the sword coast. On wealth: The party currently owns a Boat (granted it should be de-cursed as one curse remains), a whole keep including an artifact referrred to as the ebon staff), The town of ghainous (the party's barbarian who was left in charge of the keep defended it against the invasion from the town and couterattacked taking the whole town with his army of 300 odd woodland natives). they also have a chest made of gold plated silver containing 1500 dart craft gp, and recent treasure valued at 9k that was gotten in battles on the boat trip. This session of the campaign was not meant to be lucrative, but immersive and embroiling. That said they are currently housed free of charge on an estate as honorred guests "grazzt's chosen" and have the estates resources at their disposal. take care and keep smiling, cataclyst
striderII 03-30-05, 02:42 PM	As you might have guessed I focus on roleplay and immersion in my games. Dude, you rock. Just for going for roleplay and immersion instead of hack and slash. Rock on. That being said.... Lessons they had to learn or they may get the bright idea to attempt to attack Grazzt and his thralls rather than play along as followers. This *seems* like a bit of railroading, although it may not be. If it is, I understand the intent (don't let the PC's get horribly murdered). Sadly, that doesn't necessarily make it any better. Perhaps some more detail? There are times for this type of thing, but not in the middle of a "try to banish the Demon Lord from Faerun in just 12 days" campaign.... The only issue here is this: were the players made aware that this was the type of campaign you planned on running? If so, then they really don't have much room to complain. If not, then that's not the most sterling example of DM/player interaction. Still, I greatly enjoy hearing the other side of the story. Thank you. strider
snowlynx 03-30-05, 02:53 PM	Lets' see if I can offer suggestions that haven't already been said... Since an important class ability is being taken away, you should ask the DM if you can get some sort of compensation for this. Point out to him that a wizard's flexibility in having a wide range of spells is a major class feature of wizards, and that the 2 spells auto-gained are part of this. If this ability is being taken away, perhaps you can get a different ability that will be just as useful. Maybe he can severely decrease the cost of scribing spells into a spellbook to partially balance the situtation; maybe he can give you bonuses to spellcasting, or something. Though as long as you are getting spells for free (having just read the almost-above post), might as well just use the time you have to scribe....you don't need to do it all at one time, I think?
cataclyst 03-30-05, 02:57 PM	I definately walk a fine line. There were lessons that the parties priest had to learn in order to follow in the ways of the red night. some of these include: 1) don't rush in to certain danger to save someone who is already dead. ---he died learning this one. 2) sometimes deception is the better part of valor ---Had they stopped the summoning of Grazzt this may not have been a necessary lesson. As they did not , it was good that he learned it and took it to hart. There were may points in this story where the characters could choose the road less travelled. and in some cases they did (the party's sorcerer embraced chaos and the thralls) this benefitted him in many ways. Yes the party was expecting an immersive epic beginning tale. that was understood. as to the pace and content, I could not give everything away before hand. keep smiling, Cataclyst
Heahengel 03-30-05, 03:00 PM	What you are saying is pretty reasonable. I was concerned mostly with two things that the OP had said (or I thought he had): 1. That you required him to spend gp and time to scribe spells into his spellbook even for spells that he gained from his class level. 2. That you didn't allow them access to even a basic store, when it would have made sense for them to be able to use one. (As I said, I wanted to know why they were denied access, it is possible that you had good reasons, but, honestly, I doubt it). Using the RP houserule that he can't get a new spell if he has never had access to it is ok, to me. However, if you want to do that, I feel that it is the the DMs responsibility to make sure the wizard is able to get access to the spells that he wants. For example, let him choose the spells he gets instruction books for (in or out of character). This doesn't affect the RP aspects of the game at all, and allows him to get the spells he wants, as per the class rules. If you don't do this, you are using a houserule to restrict a Wizard's spell selection. If you want to do that, fine, but don't pretend that you are only doing that for RP reasons. If I were playing a wizard, under a DM who was editing my spell selection, I would probably accept it, unless the DM was really interfering with my character. However, others would object more, and I think that they have a right to do so. Also, wizards should be able to have time, every once and a while, to get more spells into their spellbooks. However, I do not say that they need 2 months any time they want it. Having a short series of adventures with very little down time is fine, as long as those conditions don't hold for an extended period of time, or for an entire campaign. Also, if the characters level a lot in that time frame, the wizard is probably going to be at a disadvantage vwithout some amount of downtime per level. To me, this is really depends on the group. For example, having an eight session adventure with no downtime is fine, with respect to a 2 year campaign or something, but if the entire campaign is an 8 session series with no down time, that seriously affects the wizard.
striderII 03-30-05, 03:28 PM	Yes the party was expecting an immersive epic beginning tale. that was understood. as to the pace and content, I could not give everything away before hand. I certainly understand the hesitation in giving anything away...however, as others have stated, the concern of a wizard player lies in having the opportunity to learn new spells. I personally think that a bit of a heads up to that player that time would be short would have been (or was, I don't know the specifics of your pre-game information) nice. That being said...if the PC's ended up in such a situation due to logical consequences of their actions...you just kept handing them rope, then. Which is perfectly fine to me. Just be ready for ShadowDragon to tell you you're a "bad DM", and other colorful epithets, due to the fact that he doesn't understand what a roleplaying game is. However, if you want to do that, I feel that it is the the DMs responsibility to make sure the wizard is able to get access to the spells that he wants. Within reason. If there are spells (either on a case-by-case basis, by school basis, and/or for story reasons) that the DM has ruled "off limits", then they should certainly be disallowed. Otherwise, no harm no foul. strider
ShadowDragon8685 03-30-05, 03:39 PM	Yes it's me... [EDITED SEVERAL TIMES] I did it. I took the happy successfull party and sucked them into a cross continental boat trip aboard a ship twice cursed. Travelling with NPCs that may or may not have been the ones sacrificing others on board and summoning Demons. The party even caught their 16 year old charge (they are delivering her to baording school) bloody handed with a knife alone in the room with a now "ex-passenger". The premise is a simple, deliver the towns steward's daughter to school via boat. The school happens to be run by a small group of teachers who are thralls of Grazzt. The boat trip reads kind of like Event Horizon. By the end of the trip all are exhausted and demoralized, one of them is literally crazy and now catatonic. They safely deliver the child into the arms of the school misstresses only to watch (from below in a cavern ) as she and others are sacrificed to bring Grazzt to the Prime Material. Here's a hint. When the players are demoralized and upset, you are doing something wrong. The Whole point of this 5 (game days) of adventure was to Stress the characters, test their faith, and make them realize how not in control they are. Lessons they had to learn or they may get the bright idea to attempt to attack Grazzt and his thralls rather than play along as followers. The Players should always be in control. You, sir, are a railroading SOB. Play along they did and were rewarded with the 30 training books (1 spell each and 10-50 pages of diagrams and insructions meant for teaching), a journal that contains insights into Grazzt's plan, and a list of the graduates of the school now in high places that must be stopped. Grazzt is now loose on the plain and in 12days another sacrifice will be held to further secure his hold. So this is basically reading like a demonic survival horror. As these 3 sessions took place over 5 days and required stress and constant tension taking a week to scribe was not realistic. Yeah, sure. Not realistic, but it also serves to super-soak one player. That's unfair. In all of the issues raised in this thread there was one that I feel the need to address. What about those 2 "free" spells per level for a wizard. As you might have guessed I focus on roleplay and immersion in my games. I have bent the rule as to these, i accept that. I request that the spell chosen be one he has somehow had access to at some point. wizards do not create spells out of thin air most of the time. they learn them. Actually, they do. If they've been leveling up, the assumption is that they have been scribbling in their free time. They are entitled to these spells. After all, how did the first wizards make their spells? Simply put, your player is suffering, because of your stupid, yes stupid, rules. And yes, I know this is confrontational. I mean it to be. I'm callin' yer butt out, you're making your player's life miserable, in the name of 'roleplay.' Sorry, roleplaying is meant to be fun. If the player is not having fun, you are doing something wrong. That said I could have said go ahead and pick any two, and not provided the selection of 30 ( some were rare hard to find BOVD spells) Sorcerers being the opposite. You should have. I gave the wizard access to an arcane school for spellbooks to grab. hence the 30 training books. I find it a bit greedy to expect the world and story to stop for the requested 2 months (that was his request) so that he may scribe all these and 100 odd scrolls. It's entirely realistic for a level 7 Wizard to have about 30 spells in addition to the level gained spells. The scrolls are a bit much, but since you're so fond of houserules, you could've just houseruled that scribing a spell to spellbook takes a half hour per spell level. There are times for this type of thing, but not in the middle of a "try to banish the Demon Lord from Faerun in just 12 days" campaign.... I don't really care. YOU are railrunning a storyline forward, a storyline wherein the players must achieve the impossible on an insanely limited amount of fundage, where everyone seems to be against them - sixteen year old girls sacrificing people, and then being sacrificed? Good grief. anyway, if you'd like to learn more feel free to hit up www.auraworks.com/dnd Sure. I'll do that just after I have an uncontrolable craving to experiance a root canal. Almost forgot at the end of the last session he had three days to scribe and study as he saw fit during the boat trip from moonshae to the sword coast. Hardly enough, especially if all he had was level 1 and 2 spells. On wealth: The party currently owns a Boat (granted it should be de-cursed as one curse remains), a whole keep including an artifact referrred to as the ebon staff), The town of ghainous (the party's barbarian who was left in charge of the keep defended it against the invasion from the town and couterattacked taking the whole town with his army of 300 odd woodland natives). they also have a chest made of gold plated silver containing 1500 dart craft gp, and recent treasure valued at 9k that was gotten in battles on the boat trip. This session of the campaign was not meant to be lucrative, but immersive and embroiling. That said they are currently housed free of charge on an estate as honorred guests "grazzt's chosen" and have the estates resources at their disposal. You do realize that the wealth per level table means wealth invested in things that are direct contributors to battle. A fortress dosen't add to attack rolls or damage, nor does it heal. take care and keep smiling, cataclyst Smiling that you're not my DM. :)
Heahengel 03-30-05, 04:01 PM	Within reason. If there are spells (either on a case-by-case basis, by school basis, and/or for story reasons) that the DM has ruled "off limits", then they should certainly be disallowed. Otherwise, no harm no foul. Thats fine, but he shouldn't strictly control the spells his wizards can take for RP reasons. Saying 'choose what spells you will find, but I don't want X because I find it unbalanced' is ok, as long as you actually think x is unbalanced, and are willing to discuss this with the player. This feels a bit more extreme to me. In my current campaign, I originally wanted to play a cleric/fighter. The DM told me that he had replaced the Cleric with an altered shaman to fit the campaign, and I decided it didn't fit my character idea. Then I looked a being a wizard, but the DM told me that he had removed every spell from the evocation school, except for light and darkness (and daylight, I believe). So I became a ranger (a variant without spells at the DMs request). This was all ok, because I knew before I got into the campaign. But if I had become a wizard, and then upon leveling up, he presented me with a short list of spells to choose from, without any evoc spells, and then told me that he didn't want me to get any evocation spells for RP reasons, or because it didn't fit the campaign, or whatever, I would have been [very angry]. Also, remmeber that this was a new DM taking up an existing adventuring party, and then changing the rules on them, so I think he should be a least somewhat flexible to give some continuity. Edit: edited out what I suppose the board thinks is a curse word.
pres_man 03-30-05, 04:22 PM	Ok so we now have the DM's viewpoint so let's look at it. The party even caught their 16 year old charge (they are delivering her to baording school) bloody handed with a knife alone in the room with a now "ex-passenger". Is anyone in the party remotely close to good? I mean as soon as they saw that, the mission to take the girl to the school would have been shut down. The Whole point of this 5 (game days) of adventure was to Stress the characters, test their faith, and make them realize how not in control they are. Lessons they had to learn or they may get the bright idea to attempt to attack Grazzt and his thralls rather than play along as followers. What if they just wanted to ditch out and save their skins? I mean it doesn't appear as if they have any real moral fiber (see above comment about the girl killing someone). When you force the players to deal with something like this, that is where it becomes railroading. Play along they did and were rewarded with the 30 training books (1 spell each and 10-50 pages of diagrams and insructions meant for teaching), a journal that contains insights into Grazzt's plan, and a list of the graduates of the school now in high places that must be stopped. Fine and dandy if they want to try to stop Grazzt, but if they don't care they will grab the books and ditch out. Let some poor paladin sap deal with the creature. Grazzt is now loose on the plain and in 12 days another sacrifice will be held to further secure his hold. Who cares? Why would the party care? As these 3 sessions took place over 5 days and required stress and constant tension taking a week to scribe was not realistic. I totally agree with you here. This is where you use the GM rule for xp that is given at the end of an adventure and not during. Because 5 days is not enough time for a fighter to master new feats or a sorcerer to find inner focus to control new spells or clerics to find inner faith etc. etc. So yes, five days are not enough for the wizard or any other class. Once they all get some down time and can refocus their minds, then they should gain xp, skills, feats, hp, saves, spells, etc. What about those 2 "free" spells per level for a wizard. As you might have guessed I focus on roleplay and immersion in my games. I have bent the rule as to these, i accept that. I request that the spell chosen be one he has somehow had access to at some point. wizards do not create spells out of thin air most of the time. they learn them. Ok, let's assume that is your true goal. That does not mean that the wizard does not get them for free or automaticly. Limiting the spells to once he is exposed to is fine, but forcing him to pay time and money for something he should get for free is not. That is not roleplaying that is shafting. I find it a bit greedy to expect the world and story to stop for the requested 2 months (that was his request) so that he may scribe all these and 100 odd scrolls. There are times for this type of thing, but not in the middle of a "try to banish the Demon Lord from Faerun in just 12 days" campaign.... What if he doesn't care about banishing the Demon Lord, he's a freaking wizard not a paladin. He cares about learning magic not saving the world. It is perfectly in character for him to want to get some down time to learn the spells. Why did you give him access to spells just to say, "Ha now you can't use them since I won't let you have time to learn them." It is a stupid childish ploy. If he wants to study the spells while the rest try to stop the demon great. He gets full xp since he is playing in character. Perhaps the party can send word when they get close for him to come help.
cataclyst 03-30-05, 04:45 PM	While I disagree with almost everything shadowdragon has to say, We like different styles of games. That said. I have stepped down as DM for this party. 1 player, the Wiz was displeased with the pace of the 5 game days (! 5 days!) and one other does not feel comfortable with the level of gore and chaos. the 3 remaining "seem" (how can I be objective) to really enjoy the story and have been very excited about the level of immersion. Of the input I have recieved I think that it is pair to say that I would have been better served to give him the 2 Any spells and only have him find a few others. duly noted. as to the wealth issue. These guys are 5-6th level and reasonably well equipped. Most have primary offensive and defensive magic items.
striderII 03-30-05, 05:01 PM	And yes, I know this is confrontational. I mean it to be. I'm callin' yer butt out, you're making your player's life miserable, in the name of 'roleplay.' Sorry, roleplaying is meant to be fun. If the player is not having fun, you are doing something wrong. And yet, when someone does the same to you, you just ignore them. How convenient. :rolleyes: You do realize that the wealth per level table means wealth invested in things that are direct contributors to battle. A fortress dosen't add to attack rolls or damage, nor does it heal. While I (somewhat) agree with you here, that doesn't mean a fortress isn't incredibly helpful in its own right. No, it doesn't count towards character wealth by level, but it very well can give the party an advantage in certain situations, if used intelligently. Thats fine, but he shouldn't strictly control the spells his wizards can take for RP reasons. Saying 'choose what spells you will find, but I don't want X because I find it unbalanced' is ok, as long as you actually think x is unbalanced, and are willing to discuss this with the player. This feels a bit more extreme to me. To be honest, I'm a bit unclear as to what "RP reasons" you would find distasteful. Is there any way you could provide an example? While I disagree with almost everything shadowdragon has to say, We like different styles of games. Correct. You like a roleplaying game. He likes a game where he has total control over the DM, because, clearly, the DM is nothing more than a trained monkey that performs to the players' whims. The important thing, cataclyst, is that you've realized a failing that you've had as a DM. This is a good thing. Now what you do is learn from it, and move on. Even though you've stepped down as the DM currently, I would urge you to take up the mantle again - it seems as though the "roleplaying and immersion" style DMs are getting harder to find. Unless, of course, you look in a LARP environment...but even some of those are blatantly idiotic, so... strider ps. cataclyst: where are you or your gaming group? I'm always interested in networking with similarly-minded gamers in my area.
cataclyst 03-30-05, 05:24 PM	The Main reason I am stepping down is because I am moving to Portland oregon in 2 weeks (from chicago). So I will look for a new group there, and take my lessons learned. I will also excercise more care in choosing people to play with who are mroe roleplay focussed. travel well and keep smiling, Cataclyst
pres_man 03-30-05, 05:43 PM	That said. I have stepped down as DM for this party. This is probably the best idea for the moment. I think you kind of got yourself a little too deep and there would have been no easy way out. Sometimes it is better to make a clean cut. 1 player, the Wiz was displeased with the pace of the 5 game days (! 5 days!) If you really want to do roleplaying then indeed a fast paced game is probably not the best way to do it. Not that having certain times being fast paced isn't good, but if that is all it is, that doesn't leave a lot of down time for roleplaying, crafting, purchasing, getting to meet future NPC allies. I think you had a good idea, but you were forced to try to make it fit with your rotating DM schedule and your soon leaving. This story would probably be better for a long campaign, PCs start at first level and finally are ready to meet the demon in battle when they are 15th level (8 or more years later in game terms, probably 1-2 years in real terms). Of the input I have recieved I think that it is pair to say that I would have been better served to give him the 2 Any spells and only have him find a few others. I agree, not that I have anything against requiring training, which in a game with quite a bit of down time is quite reasonable, in fast paced games it just isn't worth the pain. Also remember that things must be balanced, if you require wizards to pay for their training then it is only fair to make others pay for theirs as well. Two things too always keep in mind when DM is being fair and consistent. If you do those two things, you almost never have player complaints to the point of disrupting the game. as to the wealth issue. These guys are 5-6th level and reasonably well equipped. Most have primary offensive and defensive magic items. I agree with most, wealth need not be an issue really as long as encounters are balanced. Though one thing to keep in mind is that if players never can get items they choose (only get random items, never can purchase items) that can get frustrating. Doing both is often the best course. Again for epic games, give players some down time to try to find certain items that they really want. These might be expensive and hard to come by, but usually not impossible (making a +1 frost longsword cost $100,000 gp in a low money campaign for example is making it impossible). I will look for a new group there, and take my lessons learned. Cool, don't give up, remember fair and consistent while usually make games go very well. Often it is better not to change the rules until you have gained the trust of your players that you can be fair and consistent. Once you have gained their trust then they are more likely to trust that you are making decisions for game reasons and not personal reasons (he probably just hates wizards blah blah blah). Keep your ears open and listen to your players. Often they may see an effect of a change that you hadn't considered. Don't be afraid to say, "Dang, I didn't think about that. Well I screwed up, we'll switch it back." I will also excercise more care in choosing people to play with who are mroe roleplay focussed. I don't think your players in this case weren't interested in roleplaying so much as they were interested in roleplaying their character their way. Don't assume that you know the best way a character should be played, that is often the sign of a DM falling. It is perfectly reasonable for a wizard to want to find time to study magic. That shouldn't be viewed as bad playing by the PC, but good. Good luck to you. DMing can be very rewarding, but you have to stay humble and open minded to your players. When in doubt rule in their favor until you can look into it more deeply.
MrkGrismer 03-30-05, 06:03 PM	The Main reason I am stepping down is because I am moving to Portland oregon in 2 weeks (from chicago). So I will look for a new group there, and take my lessons learned. I will also excercise more care in choosing people to play with who are mroe roleplay focussed. I really don't think the issue is a matter of the players being roleplay focussed. If you give a wizard 30 spells in over-sized books and then rule that he can't use them or carry them then he might as well not have them. That is like giving a Paladin a +5 Unholy Avenger and saying, "there's your magic item!". Actually, it is worse, because the Paladin could get that redeemed. It is okay to say that you want the wizard to have to have a source for the two free spells per level, but let them stay two free spells per level and you won't have a problem. If this wizard was allowed to scribe two spells per level from those 30 training books (and those books contained spells up to and including the highest level spells the wizard could cast) I don't think many here would have that big of an issue with it. Remember in order to copy a spell from another spell book to a wizard's own spellbook takes 48 hours (24 to decipher/read/understand the spell and 24 to scribe it). That is for a single spell. Thus a wizard would need at least four days to copy the two free spells when he gains a level if he has to do it from another spellbook. If, on the other hand, you said he got the two free spells without having to take the time even to scribe them, but that they had to come from the 30 books, again I don't think there would have been a problem. It is apparent, however, that is not what happened. I see that you are emphasizing that it was only 5 game days, well if it was such a short time then why did they gain any levels (at all)?
cataclyst 03-30-05, 06:37 PM	I really am wondering how this got started! The spell book thing went like this. He was given 30 spells in primer books. to transcribe or not as he chose. Plus another 5 specialized spells from the same encounter. roughly 12 spells per level to choose from plus of course any others he had come into contact with (i.e. scrolls) I NEVER said he had to pay for the 2 that he will get for levelling or that they would take time to scribe, or that they even had to come from those books. He levelled at the end of the play session and was mad that he did not have the time IMMEDIATELY to scribe all 35+ spells into his books.
AcidArgyle 03-30-05, 06:43 PM	Hey everyone... I am currently in the Gaming group in question... I'm playing a LN Cleric of the Red Knight. Let me give another perspective as well... We are a gaming group in Chicago. Random cats itching to game, all pulled together for something to do on Sundays. It has really been a blast so far, but I'm a huge RP kind of player though... I have been playing on and off since 1st ed in the 80s... (im 29) and been in some serious epic games with terrific groups... our current DM is rather experienced as well... SO.... We are about 8 sessions into what we all agreed up front, will be a very long running epic campaign... Set in FR... We decided to rotate DMs to not wear anyone out... The first 5 sessions were pretty standard and a hell of a lot of fun. In-game, We all met, and all travelled to adventure together, some reluctantly.... Well the party got TPKed during an ill-advised encounter which we should have tried to avoid.... Everyone rolled up new Chars with the exception of me.. The Red Knight sent me back to champion for her again.... so we fought, adventured, rested, quested, rested and so on throughout the first 5 sessions (roughly 8 hours a session on sundays). The pary now consists of a LN cleric, CN Sorcerer, LN (was LG) Wizard, LN Bard/Rogue and LG Fighter. Re: Party Loot and Wealth We all have magic items and weapons.. and sure we haven't got a ton of GP. but when you look back on your great gaming sessions from the past years, do you remember how many GP you had in the bag of holding? nope... you remember the RP and story... and how much your char eventually kicked ass.. and probably how he died. heh... The big thing for our current party is this.. We now own a town and keep/fiefdom... plus a boat. and a nice load of cargo and equipment on the boat we can sell.... In the next sesison we will establish a plan to elect new officials and council, plan out our fiefdom surrounding our keep, use the sailing vessle and control over our town to establish trade and start making some serious income.. not only from the trade itself but also income from the town and fiefdom... We are also on the verge of being pretty dang wealthy.. so we have a few sessions where we are broke. (mind you we have yet to be in a situation where we have run out of money and wanted to buy something. so i dont see the problem) Re: Town Visits Which brings me to Town visits... Early on we visited town, bought a load of stuff and equipment. cool, right on... then we adventured... got to the next town and burnt it down an hour after arriving (long story) so no shopping... then got the keep, took it over, recovered the ebonstaff, and went back to town... we were to be whisked away early in the morning and weren't able to "shop" however the DM game us the ability to sell and buy stuff through our contact.. unfortunately the Wizard (the OP, who netrworked 5 PCs together to cheat at diablo) actually threatened in character to kidnap and kill the girl our contact was hired to protect... needless to say it really upset our contact and he left the room, so... we were unable to "shop" via him on that day... we were still managed to re-fit a mighty composite bow that was Large to Medium and get some armor and misc stuff anyway though.... Now 3 sessions later we have pretty much been on a boat the whole time... The beginning of the next session we will be able to shop and visit town.. (actually we are ONE day from WATERDEEP.. so we can find anything we need there in our next session if we like.) SO big deal a few sessions we weren't able to unload our stuff and buy new gear... short term... big deal... remember this is a long term campaign. Re: The Last 3 Sessions We were all naive PCs before.. heros with eyes shut to corruption and chaos... Which brings us to the boat... we were charged with making sure a girl made a safe boat trip to a rich girls finishing school... Needless to say her dad was an agent of chaos and sending her off to her death.. On that journey we met up with Chaos in all its glory and might... Noone could trust anyone, people were dying... people were possessed.. it was very tough time and yes we were railroaded to set up the story... although we still had tons of choices while that all went on.... and it was a great time... We basically now find ourselves with Grazz't on the loose in the realms... Most of our party is N or G.... we are all down with it... We are all marked by Grazz't as agents of chaos as he thinks we are actually spreading chaos. (we have a bad rep kindof... since we burnt one town to the ground (long story), left a chaotic berserker in charge of the keep while we were gone who in turn leveled the chaos-tainted town where we were sent from... a town which we now control and can establish a new council and sea trade with.) anyway, we are going to USE the fact we are marked by Grazz't as a guise so we can secretly go off and champion for his ultimate defeat... Re: Railroading i cant remember a watching a movie or reading a book where during the middle of it i didn't think "damn, it really sucks to be the main characters right now" hope they can pull through... lets make some popcorn and see what they can do! With every good story there is conflict and struggle... fall and rise... gonads and strife... Railroading??? Luke was railroaded, Frodo was railroaded... I mean thats what makes a good story. Intro/Setup to Railroad/Struggle to Reaction/Glory. Roll credits... sequel!!!!! Re: 2 spells per level Why give 2 spells OOC for leveling up and in game give 33 spell books when you can give 35 spellbooks in game and tell him his two free spells need to be from there instead.. its like why not add in that bit of RP action. Now i DO understand feeling not-mighty.. that sucks... i would want spells too. but he just got 35 books..plus the spells from the sorcerer who pulled a fast one on him.. and he will find the time and money in no time.. probably this next session. he DOES indeed have some powerfull spells and has saved our ass multiple times... cept for when he fireballed the hull of boat we were on.... yeah.... no good.... heh. so... our party is 5 players... 3 love the game, 1 doesnt like the gore and violence... happier with more of a slapstick funny game experience. and 1 (the OP) doesnt like the lack of wealth, power and spells to date... wel the first 3 levels as wizard suck.... next 2 levels we were on a boat or in struggle (3 sessions) so yeah it was rough.. but now here we are moving forward from those few little chaotic sessions... so... my thing is this... we haven't ever been in a position where we needed money and didn't have it.... and sure its been a chaotic gory evil few sessions.. but it will even out now that the epic conflict has been laid out... I was/am really looking forward to continuing...I even made a website for our gorup... and modified it just today.. so yeah i want to continue.. even though our DM quit (hwe wanted to contuinue via webcam even, thats how much he liked the groupd too).... I am next to DM in line.. although we may switch because my character currently really is involved with the current situation, (his sister is one of the girls who graduated from the school and tainted by Grazz't, she is in dire peril.) plus he is a very balanced individual and kindof the party leader... the 17 year old CN sorcerer/shadow adept is quite a handful as he just does what he wants most of the time... the wizard is greedy and the fighter kindof lost his mind.... the bard is a pretty centered cat too =) The current DM didn't know he wa smoving to portland until about 2 weeks ago. Originally he was going to DM for a couple more months.. (which may also explained the chaotic sessions due to having to speed it up a bit to get his portion at a point it can be "left" for the next DM in line) We have all been role playing well and have enjoyed it so far... great way to spend sundays... concerns about nerfing the wizard i dont feel are justified only because it was only a few sessions of struggle and conflict with no rest... but will be changing soon, he just cant see it... meh...
Spamhammer 03-30-05, 06:44 PM	I don't think your players in this case weren't interested in roleplaying so much as they were interested in roleplaying their character their way. Nicely put. As a player in the game being discussed, I like the roleplaying but hate the demon horror. What am I to do? (Dear Abby was no help in this situation.)
PhaedrusXY 03-30-05, 07:08 PM	I really am wondering how this got started! The spell book thing went like this. He was given 30 spells in primer books. to transcribe or not as he chose. Plus another 5 specialized spells from the same encounter. roughly 12 spells per level to choose from plus of course any others he had come into contact with (i.e. scrolls) I NEVER said he had to pay for the 2 that he will get for levelling or that they would take time to scribe, or that they even had to come from those books. He levelled at the end of the play session and was mad that he did not have the time IMMEDIATELY to scribe all 35+ spells into his books.Heh, this is totally different from the story we've been given so far. It sounds like a fun game to me. I like horror, gore, and mature themes in roleplaying games. :D I understand the desire for realism in the game, and suspension of disbelief. You just have to be careful that you don't unintentionally malign someone's character in the name of it. But really, if the above is true, it doesn't sound like you did that at all in this case. The easiest way to be sure you don't is to strictly follow the rules when possible, and make sure and tell the PCs about any house rules that you plan to use before they even make their characters. One of my gaming pet peeves is DMs who don't know the rules, don't care about the rules, and just basically make up whatever rules they want in the middle of the game. I understand that some people don't mind this, and actually enjoy this kind of gaming. I'm just not one of them. ;) (I'm not saying you are, either. But when I hear words like Deep Immersion Roleplaying, it makes me wary.)
hensteeth 03-30-05, 09:03 PM	Couple of clarifications. We do have more than 7k in gold. As far as I can tell we have 17,642 sp, 7731 Gp adn 20 pp. Also rare platinum worth 1000 gp. On my character I have 92 platinum. The only magic items I poses is a wand of owls wisdom and the spell books. Everything else is adventuring gear. No potions and no scrolls. I will have scrolls when I figure the cost over the 3 days I was given. The town and keep are located on an unknown island in FR. We were sent with two missions, one get the girl to school and two stop the pirates so that the town could start trade. The real reason we found out was to get us off the island so they could attack the keep. The keep is not what I consider treasure. There are 2 seperate Troll armies that want to take it back. There is an army or Rhodan that has not been totally accounted for (many have joined us) and who were the initial force we were sent to remove from the keep (sent by the townsfolk). And there is an army of cat people who don't like us. So one keep that (against my wishes) we kept after the town had sent us to clear it, surrounded by 4 armies and townsfolk who want it back (mainly to get the staff and give it to the demon). The town may be ours but it is not certain. One of our former party members went and razed it. How amicable they are to us putting in a puppet government, i'm not sure. I actually was not sure that we had annexed it as part of our territory. The island is isolated. Thus the second reason of eliminating pirates. We were attacked by 2 pirate ships in 3 days. We have found out that there is at least 5 of these ships all flying the flag of Bane. The original trip was supposed to take 14 days. On the 3rd day demons came aboard and teleported everyone to the girl's school. I'm not so sure when we will be able to go back to the island and reclaim all of this supposed wealth that we have. The ship. Twice cursed, once removed. A lot of nastiness happened there. We were next shipped (same ship) from the school to the sword coast. Since the entire crew was killed we had an evil spirit as captain. Again, I have some difficulty with claiming this as treasure. The ship is currently docked in a town whose Dutches (duke died, killed by wife?) is an active supporter of Grazzt. Regarding the possibility of selling items and trading that was mentioned, where I blew the opportunity by threatening the 16 year old. The previous dm played a fighter adn told me that the town was going to attack the keep when we left. We had guidence from our cleric who was informed by the Red knight that we had to leave or all of Faerun was in danger. I suggested that we could use the leader's daughter as leverage against the leader that was going to attack the keep. We had to get on the boat. What were we to do? Just leave our friend there to fry? What options? The only leverage we had was his daughter. The fighter was there as her personal guard, so needless to say he didnt help us with the merchants. We left on the boat in the early morning a handful of hours after we got to town. My main concern with our campaign is that if things continue the way they have been, I will not be able to play this wizard. I mentioned on our boards that I expected the wizard to suck to 10th level. I do not want to be denied the necessary treasure and time in the future to be able to play the character. Edited to add that "12 spells per level" is 12 total spells from levelling to 6th level, not 72 spells.
Heahengel 03-30-05, 09:49 PM	Now I'm feeling a bit guilty (even before AcidArgyle's post). I wasn't trying to say that you should step down, that you were ruining the game, or even that you were a bad DM. I was saying that you had a bad houserule, and that you were railroading a bit obviouisly, from the information that we had. I probably shouldn't have been so quick to take everything he said at face value though. Which brings me to Town visits... Early on we visited town, bought a load of stuff and equipment. cool, right on... then we adventured... got to the next town and burnt it down an hour after arriving (long story) so no shopping... then got the keep, took it over, recovered the ebonstaff, and went back to town... we were to be whisked away early in the morning and weren't able to "shop" however the DM game us the ability to sell and buy stuff through our contact.. unfortunately the Wizard (the OP, who netrworked 5 PCs together to cheat at diablo) actually threatened in character to kidnap and kill the girl our contact was hired to protect... needless to say it ****** him our contact and he left the room so we were unable to "shop" via him... we were still managed to re-fit a mighty composite bow that was Large to Medium and get some armor and misc stuff anyway though.... This is a very good reason to not let the PCs shop. The impresion we were given from the OP was that you were running the PCs through town multiple times, but giving contrived reasons that they couldn't buy or sell anything. You did run them through town (once, from what is said here), but gave them an opportunity to do necessary shopping anyway. Thats probably more considerate than most DMs - not giving them the opportunity to shop once is probably not a problem, I was just amazed that it happened 4 times (which also implied that this was occuring over a lot of sessions). The player screwed it up for himself. As for the 2 spells/level, I'm not sure the OP ever directly said it (looking over his posts), but the general assumption within the thread when I started replying to it was that you were requiring the OP to spend time and money scribing spells into his spellbook, even for the 2 spells he is meant to get free every level. Also, from what he said, he didn't have enough downtime to get even these two spells. This I would consider to be a very bad idea. But from what you, and the other player, have said, this wasn't the case. About a wizards spell selection: What I was trying to say before was that giving a wizard 30 spells or so, and telling him to choose his spells from that list, feels restrictive to me. I think that his 2 spells/level should be any that he wants, unless the DM thinks they are unbalanced, or they don't exist in the campaign world. Also, I can see things like Vile spells being NPC only in most campaigns, and non-core spells should be vetted, etc. I understand that you don't want him to spontaniously generate new spells in his spellbook that he has never seen. However, I think a more effective answer to that is to make sure he encounters the spells that he wants to take, by asking him what they are OOC, and putting them into the quest in advance. Those spellbooks that you gave him were a perfect oportunity for that. Basically, I think that those 2 spells should be any that you would allow in your campaign. Basically, if the sorceror can get it at level up, the wizard should be able to as well (they are meant to be more flexible spell wise anyways). If there are only 30-35 1st-3rd level spells that you allow in your game, I would really want to know that in advance. Thats fine, but he shouldn't strictly control the spells his wizards can take for RP reasons. Saying 'choose what spells you will find, but I don't want X because I find it unbalanced' is ok, as long as you actually think x is unbalanced, and are willing to discuss this with the player. This feels a bit more extreme to me. To be honest, I'm a bit unclear as to what "RP reasons" you would find distasteful. Is there any way you could provide an example? What I was trying to say was that I don't really mind extensive changes to the game world or restrictions, as long as they are mentioned in advance. As for what I would cionsider a valid RP reason to not allow a player to take a spell, I can give a few examples: 1. If a player had a backstory focused on hating the undead, I probably wouldn't want him to take animate dead. If he really wanted to, the Pc would have to have a change of heart for some reason. 2. A good character shouldn't be using Vile spells. Or a neutral one for that matter. Generally, if I thought someone was casting spells that were way out of character, I would want them to be able to explain why it would make sense, but it would have to be pretty absurd for me to actually stop them from doing something. Actually, there is another example with my current character (same campaign as that ranger, who died). I am a Psion/Rogue/Elocater/Assassin. Its a low magic world, and I am only taking the psionics because I really like the Elocater class. My original concept was that the psionics basically represented powers over my own body, and I was only taking personal target powers (this was in part to work with my DMs vision of the campaign world). However, I really want to take Control Sound and Cloud Mind, because I like them, and I think they will work for the character. Right now I am trying to find a new conceptualization of my powers which will support this (I need to do this anyway, because I forgot that Elocater gives me teleport and plane shifting abilities soon, which wouldn't fit either). I don't think my DM has a problem with the powers, because they aren't attack powers, but I still want a character that makes sense to me. OTOH, I am basically just creating this character, so it isn't disruptive for me to change character concept. Do you think these are reasonable? Edit: Spelling, and I should mention that I haven't read the OPs new post before posting this (he posted while I was writing). Edit2: I read the OPs new post. I still think he has a point, but this isn't a hammergun situation to me. If I am a wizard, I would generally expect to have at least twice as many spells as a sorcerer of one higher level, for each level of spells that I knew. That would put a level 6 wizard at all cantrips, 10 level 1, 6 level 2, and 4 level 3 spells. That sounds reasonable to me. Remember that a cleric or druid will know all spells of whatever level. To me, it sounds like the group is leveling too fast. Unless you get a lot of plot XP, a party shouldn't be able to make over one level in 3 game days (I am under the impression that this happened here, but I am not sure). If they can really survive enough fights that give the appropriate XP, then they are being helped in the fights somehow, and so shouldn't be getting as much XP for them. If I want to play an item crafter (I don't know if the OP wants time to craft), I would check with my DM first about downtime, or propose the UA crafting rules.
pres_man 03-30-05, 10:31 PM	The party now consists of a LN cleric, CN Sorcerer, LN (was LG) Wizard, LN Bard/Rogue and LG Fighter. Most of our party is N or G.... we are all down with it... So now your all down with it, but when the girl was killing people, "hey we just need to get her there". Sorry right then your fighter should have been, "this is bull crap, I'm killing the sick biatch." Railroading??? Luke was railroaded, Frodo was railroaded... I mean thats what makes a good story. Good story? yes. Good game? maybe not. Remember this is a game, where everybodies part is not scripted out ahead of time. "You'll be playing the part of the whining halfling that has to be pushed along and at the end even carried. Have fun!" No this is an improvisation, where the setting is controled by the DM but the characters and their decisions are the total domain of the players. Why give 2 spells OOC for leveling up and in game give 33 spell books when you can give 35 spellbooks in game and tell him his two free spells need to be from there instead.. its like why not add in that bit of RP action. Well giving 33 spells books or 35 spell books is just pretty dumb either way. Give scrolls, their easier to carry and they can be studied as well. Also another problem is it is similiar to telling a fighter that the only feats they can learn are the ones they observe or the ones they can learn from these manuals. Of course it takes 3 weeks of study time to learn a feat from a manual. Good gaming! I am next to DM in line I suggest that if there is going to be a lot of stuff happening during a short time in game, don't give out xp until everyone has some down time. This will stop a lot of these types of problems. My suggestion is adventure then have a few weeks/months where you have down time, gain a level (xp from adventure), rinse and repeat. Edit: I also wanted to mention that as was pointed out earlier having access to spellbook doesn't mean squat for a wizard, unless he already has the spell scribed in HIS spellbook. So giving someone 35 spellbooks isn't really helping them very much. At least with scrolls he could cast some as 1 shots.
therston 03-30-05, 10:59 PM	I agree. Serious "Nerfing" and the DM seems "Clueless" to the needs of his players. I would also choose to not play a Wizard under this kind of campaign. BTW Have you tried just leaving the group? A Wizard would probably leave his adventuring party if he thought it was not letting him aquire the magic he has probably sought his entire life. Look at it from the characters perspective rather than the player playing the character. The kind of Mission which would hurt the Wizards future goals would be a mission he probably wouldnt want to participate in (Generally speaking that is).
MrkGrismer 03-30-05, 11:19 PM	I believe this is the problem paragraph: He says that I can only acquire the 2 new spells froma source. So I need to be taught them from someone, buy the scroll or find the spell somewhere. Since acquiring the spell from a source always requires 48 hours per spell (one day to decifer/read/understand and one to scribe), plus the 100 gp per page I guess the assumption was that it was not free.
pres_man 03-30-05, 11:21 PM	Nicely put. As a player in the game being discussed, I like the roleplaying but hate the demon horror. What am I to do? (Dear Abby was no help in this situation.) Well is it your character that doesn't like the demon horror or is it you the player? If it is the character then just make a new character. Seems some times people feel that PCs have to stay in the game even if they have no reason to (the party keeps doing things that they would find intolerable, or they do things that the rest find so for example). I've had players try to make really annoying characters, I tell them if there is no reason the party would want their character, their character gets retired. There has to be some party and character cohesion. If it is you the player that dislikes it, then I would ask is this common for this group? Or is this just the current DMs view of fun? If it is not common then just stick it out, it will get better. If this is common then I would suggest that you DM your own game, that is more to your liking. I think someone said you game for 8 hours, why not play two different campaigns for 4 hours each. That way if someone didn't like one, they might only show up for 4 hours. It would also slow down the crazy leveling that it seems you guys are doing.
Ze_Mighty_Vegetable 03-31-05, 12:46 AM	What if he doesn't care about banishing the Demon Lord, he's a freaking wizard not a paladin. He cares about learning magic not saving the world. It is perfectly in character for him to want to get some down time to learn the spells. Why did you give him access to spells just to say, "Ha now you can't use them since I won't let you have time to learn them." It is a stupid childish ploy. If he wants to study the spells while the rest try to stop the demon great. He gets full xp since he is playing in character. Perhaps the party can send word when they get close for him to come help. He can choose to pass the quest, as it were. However, it's unlikely to happen as it means the player will have to miss a few games while the others quest. But don't feel your DM has to solo quest you. I DM a group. If a PC decide to leave the group for a while, fine. But I won't solo-quest. As for XP, yes, he's acting in character. That will earn him RPXP. But nowhere near as much as making the quest. He's not risking his life, he's not playing, he basically put his character on hold. Research, bedides the amount of research a wizard is assumed to perform to recieve his two new spells per level, requires time. Buying/finding/trading spells gives you... nothing until you copy them in your own spellbook, which requires time. The only alternative would be to master a found spellbook instead of copying spells, but this requires even more time (and a really tough spellcraft check). :OMG! Major Oops!! I checked, and you're right. I never played wizards, so I honnestly didn't know it took that time to copy. I stand corrected. :tiphat:
striderII 03-31-05, 10:13 AM	This whole thing, to me, seems like a bit of a situation of some miscommunication, coupled with contrasting (but not necessarily conflicting) gaming styles. I say this due to the fact that the DM and another player seem to have one take on things (they more or less agree, or at least seem to), and the OP seems to be "the odd man out". I could be horribly confused, or remembering things incorrectly, but that's my take, I guess. I think things could be worked out, but with the DM moving...no worries, really. Do you think these are reasonable? Absolutely, and I agree with your RP reasons in relation to spells entirely. strider
SweeneyTodd 03-31-05, 12:21 PM	I'm going to stay away from the rules-related questions entirely. The OP has access to his GM, the other players at the table, and even has a web forum set up to facilitate discussion within his group. I think it was a mistake for him to "come running" to these boards for backup -- it sounds like if he'd communicated clearly with the GM the nature of the problem, it could have been resolved without such a mess. It'd do us all well to remember that rules issues are typically not the important ones; before we're anything else, we're people engaging in a social activity. OK, that's enough preaching from me. :)
Bonzai 03-31-05, 12:33 PM	The main concerns I had with the whole thing was this; does the wizard gain his 2 free spells when he lvls? If you tally the xp each night, and make the adjustments on the character sheets, and the wizard lvls, he get two free spells in his spell book. This is just as important as a sorc getting his spells, or a fighter learning a feat. I understand the arguements for immersion, and rp. However, if that is the case, don't add the xp till the end of the campaign, or a major lull. This goes for all the characters. As long as he gets the two free spells, and time to mem spells each day, a wizard can make due. While I agree that two months of in game down time is a little much, a day or two here and there to memorize a few important ones is a must. If you require that the wizard be taught his two free spells, and pay to scribe them, then all characters must pay to be taught their class abilities, and pay for the priviledge. The main problem people seemed to have, is that you are lvling the characters, but requiring that the wizard scribe spells to get them in his spell book, and then allowing no down time to do so. You tried to compensate for this by giving him a generous selection of spells. However, as people here are noting, giving him spell books, but no time to study, is about the same as giving him no spells at all, and shafting him of the two spells his class description says he is entitled too. Keep that in mind for the next time. Have fun in Portland, it's where I grew up.
cataclyst 03-31-05, 12:49 PM	I have already agreed that in the future I will exempt the two freebie spells from having to be anything that a wizard has come into contact with (i.e. seen cast, read, or owns), although I really think this is silly. As to charging or requiring scribing of those two. I never said it, requested it or suggested it. period. SweeneyTodd: You are sooo right. I was going to be playing remote with this group, as a player. because the roleplay by every player has been INCREDIBLE. I mean it this group has had some jaw dropping IC scenes. The best Roleplay being that of the Non-Demon horror gamer. Just plain phenomonal so real , so obviously afflicted by the taint of Chaos. Spamhammer you may hate horror, but you got game for it! If he had handled his concerns like the player not fond of Demons and adressed them at the table this would never have happened. As it is I will not be playing with him again. Cest La Vie, you live you learn. We made arrangements for the non-horror gamer that allowed him to play npcs for 2 weeks and keep his character , albeit a bit psychologically affected. Keep in mind that this is the exciting intro scene that is intended to build to an epic revenge or battle game in theory. Ahh, well. Time to check meetup for portland groups
Cold Napalm 03-31-05, 02:21 PM	Okay one thing to remember when doing round robin... PLAY BY THE RAW. Period. No house rule, no it makes sense rule, none of it. It makes the transition MUCH easier and the game consistant.
Spamhammer 03-31-05, 03:22 PM	Spamhammer you may hate horror, but you got game for it! I may have a swimmer's build, but I don't live in the ocean. I keed. I keed. To answer Pres' question: like cataclyst said, I talked it out with him and we reached a compromise that didn't disrupt the game too much. Cat has been an excellent dm for the few sessions I've played with him. Moral of the story: Talk with your DM, always. Unless he's a jerk.
WindOwl 04-01-05, 04:34 PM	He says that I can only acquire the 2 new spells froma source. So I need to be taught them from someone, buy the scroll or find the spell somewhere. Um, no. That's just not the way it works. The two new spells represent your character messing around on parchment every day, playing with magical equations. After a while, he solves that last variable and is able to actually use it for what he was trying to do. It's mathemagics... Or something. That's how wizards work. EDIT: Having not read the entire thread, I seem to be a bit late. Oh well. :rolleyes:
Diefreak 04-05-05, 10:21 AM	I don't know about you all but in my case my friends always protact me i'm a level 5 wizard and i'm pretty good . Wizards are generally fexiable and powerfull unlike sorcerors they take longer to learn level spells and are lemeted.Ultimitly i don't know why your complaning becouse wizards are a hard class to play and if your a high level wizard The DM will fucos on you becouse your the Artillery and spell storms dammaging crap.Wizards are to Protact there party not to run around in battle doing as they plaes and for your Question just rip the pages off the books and get a bag of holdings or have your friends hold some pages for you.I'm a wizards for a secend time last time i was a level 14 wizards and DM's always try to kill wizards Becouse we are Big threats.Um good luck with your game......